cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 22nd, '19, 10:48
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 18th, '19, 10:32
1. I can guarentee you that there is wellore than $10 million being spent on AEW. Where the money comes from is irrelevant to how much is being spent on the promotion.
2. Stop using straw-man WWE-mark anti-AEW comments to tell me that their numbers are impressive compared to Raw's. I have never once treated AEW that way so please stop talking like I have.
Yes, WWE metrics are going down because WWE is losing fans, but the whole idea of AEW (and everyone else who has tried to make this sort of push) is that they would appeal to those fans. AEW's metrics trending downwards show that they are failing to do that.
3. I brought AEW up becase you brought up WWE financials and ratings in a l thread that was otherwise purely about Creative.
I certainly don't constantly defend WWE. I've sh*t on them in more detail and in s more frequent basis than anyone. But I will also stand up for quality wrestling being put on. If you want to boycott WWE then that's fine
But if your basis is that they're "greedy corporate billionaires," you might want to look at the Khans getting fined for worker safety violations, or the fact that they are NFL owners, who share a dismal percentage of their profits with their employees. And if you'll turn your back on promotions you used to love like PROGRESS for, as you like to say "bending the knee" to WWE, you you should apply those same standards to AEW, who are inextricably linked to the Khans and there business.
1. where the money comes from is far more important on where they spend it, i don't care if they want to give 1B to Lesnar and Rousey. If CMLL was being run by the Cartel, i wouldn't support CMLL.
2. I'm not saying AEW's number's are impressive, i'm saying WWE's suck and for a business that size that constantly circle-jerks itself, it's laughable.
I apologize for implying that you have a grudge with AEW, that is the impression that i've had because you show that you have a personal grudge with both Cody and The Elite for years now, and ni the same vein, you're the only person I know, outside of Facebook and Twitter bots, that have defended a lot of terrible things from WWE.
Like i said, i don't think AEW is stealing anyone's fans, it's worse, WWE is making fans leave the whole wrestling industry altogether.
3. It's still a WWE based discussion, it's not far out to bring up ratings/financial reflected in creative and booking.
I can't speak for what Papa Khan does with his businesses, because none of that is related to AEW. For that matter, what Tony Khan does for his teams is also another thing. There is a big difference between the deals that Vince McMahon and co. do FOR WWE, i'm not even bringing up McMahon putting Linda in the White House, nor his support of Trump. I'm only talking about what McMahon has done in the name of WWE, and at least until now, Khan has done nothing that I know of like that to bury those promotions of lower levels, or enrich themselves by dirty deals, or treat their employees like shit.
1 & 3. But your criticism always starts with it being a "multi-billion dollar company," not the blood money part, and you've used that line of attack since well before the Saudi deal was struck.
If you want to lambast WWE for being greedy, you should treat the Khans the same way. They're not angels, either. And if you're going to turn on PROGRESS because they're close to WWE then you should apply that same scrutiny to AEW because of things the Khan's have been involved in.
2. My issue we Cody is that I think he's arrogant and petty...but that hasn't gotten in my way when I rate anyone else's matches (Hogan, Vince, Piper, Dusty, Hunter, Zandig, David Starr, Kevin Nash, Dynamite Kid, Aries) and I don't let it affect me with Cody, either. I criticize based solely off of performance and booking. My issue with Cody is that he sees himself as embodying these old school principles when in reality he makes the same mistakes that WWE does.
I have nothing against the Elite. I don't think I've said a single bad word about the Bucks or Kenny since Dynamite began. When I like what someone is doing, I will explain why, and when I don't like what someone is doing, I will explain why. I call wXw out for the same things that I call TNA out for.
What I do have a problem with is hypocrisy and double-standards, and I think Cody is guilty of it personally, and I think a lot of fans are guilty of it when it comes to their evaluation of Cody. The moment he put that Bullet Club shirt on, he went from "boring" to the best wrestler ever not named Omega or Okada, despite his matches being terrible and his promos the same over the top crap that people would poop on WWE for.
I don't see these "evil business practices" of Vince's as being evil. I'm very libertarian in my outlook on a lot of things. So long as he's not directly harming people or breaking the law then that's fine. The idea that Vince is trying to create a monopoly doesn't bother me one bit because he'll never be able to. He's been trying for years and has more money now than ever before, and yet pro wrestling on a lower level than Vince's is healthier now financially both in the US/Canada and around the world, than it has been since the days of the NWA monopoly (and both Vince Sr. and Verne count as being part of that, even if they weren't members, because they obeyed the laws of the territories), and healthier creatively than even then, as we don't have the same people running from territory to territory repeating the same set of angles (looking at you, Fuller, Dusty, Ken Mantel) or one boss running the same sequence for every feud no matter who was in the top babyface role (Vince Sr.). Vince will never put the indies or CMLL or New Japan out of business, just like he didn't put WCW out of business. They might put themselves out of business, but that's their own damn fault.
Don't get me wrong, I will criticize Vince for a lot of things that he does that I think are immoral (the independent contractors deal, for example), but trying to form a monopoly (people's #1 complaint about mean old Vince) isn't something I have any problem with. I also think that you have to take the good with the bad. Vince is under no obligation to pay for anyone's rehab, but he does. I don't think the Saudis get any actual benefit from the WWE deal because the mainstream has never taken WWE seriously, especially as some sort of moral compass.
As for WWE and driving fans away from the business, I don't think that's a fair way to look at it. WWE is driving fans away from WWE, and if all those fans know of the business is WWE, then they don't come back to the business. But there are clearly a sizable number of fans who get hooked on pro wrestling though WWE and look for more, and when those fans give up on WWE, they keep watching New Japan/PROGRESS/ROH/TNA/PWG/CHIKARA/MLW/their local indy. And if you want to blame WWE for driving away those who don't return, then you need to give WWE credit for those fans becoming wrestling fans in the first place, too.
AEW, like the current NWA and like TNA before them, are an attempt to bring in that lost fan. AEW is failing in their goal because they are clearly not providing what those fans want. Both WWE and AEW multi-million dollar failures at their goal. I don't think WWE's failure is that much more shameful just because they have put more billionaire pocket change into it (they also have more shows and a lot more people to pay).
I also think that, for all of their talk about being a "cradle to grave" promotion, WWE has pretty much always set themselves up more as a promotion whose fanbase goes in cycles. People get into it for a few years in elementary school or middle school and then mostly stop watching it when it ceases to become "cool," then go through nostalgia phases of paying attention again for the rest of their life. Other promotions are trying to grab your attention and keep it by getting you invested in things. Maybe WWE thinks they're e doing that and failing miserably, but their general scheme of doing things doesn't point in that direction at all the same way that most other promotions (and especially outside of Japan) do.
Even though they think they're Marvel in the late 60s, WWE is actually DC in the late 60s : Part of the way they run their business has fan desertion as they "age out" baked into it.
As for bringing up ratings, this was a discussion of pure creative theory. Views on a character. The overall ratings are unrelated.
