BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

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BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 26th, '18, 23:51

ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (2/23/2018)- Tokyo, Japan

KATSUYA KITAMURA & TOA HENARE vs. BULLET CLUB (Yujiro Takahashi & Bad Luck Fake)- 4.5/10

JUSHIN “THUNDER” LIGER, CHEESEBURGER, & DELIRIOUS vs. BULLET CLUB (Hikuleo & the Guerrillas of Destiny)- 4.5/10
I don’t want to call them the “babyfaces” because two of the most annoying people in ROH are on the team, so instead I’ll just refer to the winners of this match as “Team Liger.” This builds up to tomorrow’s NEVER Openweight Six-Man Tag Team Title match. Tama Tonga used Cody’s finisher at one point. I have no idea if I’m supposed to read anything into that, so I’ll just note it here.

THE YOUNG BUCKS vs. DAVID FINLAY JR. & JUICE ROBINSON- 6.5/10
The match was structured with the Bucks as the babyfaces even though they’re heels… so yeah, they’re turning. They were also given the win over a pair of heavyweights here, so that shift is probably coming, too.

FLIP GORON vs. HIROMU TAKAHASHI vs. KUSHIDA- 7/10
The match was enjoyable, but the story would have worked better if Gordon had done a better job of selling his knee. He got the win here because they’re trying to get him over, but he did not hold up his end and impress me.

JAY WHITE & BEST FRIENDS vs. DALTON CASTLE, JAY LETHAL, & RYUSUKE TAGUCHI- 6.75/10
Dalton had no Boys with him tonight, making him look even more like a midcard nobody rather than the ROH World Champion. CHAOS wins. Dalton and Trent have a stare-down to build up tomorrow night’s title match.

NEVER OPENWEIGHT TITLE MATCH: Hirooki Goto(c) vs. Beer City Bruiser- 6.25/10
Bruiser beat Goto up for a while, then Goto made a quick comeback and won. They had something of a story with Goto having to overcome Bruiser’s size advantage, but Bruiser never felt like a real threat to Goto because… well… Bruiser is an undercard jamoke who is getting this title shot for no reason other than so Goto can defend his title on this show as a way for ROH and New Japan to try to pretend that these shows are actually important and not just a bunch of random crap without most of the top guys from both company that only exists to serve as an undercard for the Bullet Club stuff.

KOTA IBUSHI, KENNY OMEGA, & CHASE OWENS vs. BULLET CLUB (Adam Page, Marty Scurll, & Cody Rhodes)- 7.75/10
Omega came out with Ibushi as the Golden Lovers rather than coming out with Owens as Bullet Club or coming out on his own. He and Ibushi shook hands before the match, though he did make a point of making nice to Owens as well, and even more shockingly, Owens did the same for Ibushi. Cody spit on a Golden Lovers sign that he presumably took from a fan.
Owens was shockingly eager to get in there and fight against his fellow members of Bullet Club. Compare this to Scurll, who had to be yelled at by Page and Cody in order to get in with Omega even after having been tagged in.
Scurll did start to wrestle with Omega, which led to a spot where Scurll was going to do the finger-breaking spot, but then started to think about whether he actually wanted to do it or not. Cody yelled at him to do it. Marty seemed like maybe he wouldn’t, but it became a moot point when Ibushi came in and made the save. This all probably sounds like they’re doing a good job of building up that Marty is conflicted about whose side he is on, but the problem is that I just don’t buy Marty going from not even wanting to get in there and trade headlocks with Omega all the way to being on the verge of breaking his fingers in a grand total of two and a half minutes, during which Omega did nothing illegal to him at all. Those are both individual spots that get the major point across, but they’ weren’t strung together in a way that tells a logical story. Ditto for the fact that Marty was reluctant to get in the ring with his fellow Bullet Club member Kenny Omega, but had no problem beating the sh*t out of Chase Owens.
Those are just two examples of why I think that despite the great action in this match (which I have reflected in my rating), the story here failed. The story of this match was built around two factors. The first was Scurll being conflicted about fighting Omega, which was hurt by the aforementioned logical issues, but killed by the fact that we never got an answer about it. He was ambivalent about it in the beginning, ambivalent about it at the end, and his fluctuations back and forth during the match never had any specific action by Kenny or Cody that brought them on. They existed solely because “we need to have a spot where Marty is unsure of whose side he should be on.”
The other thing this match seemed to have been built around was obviously Omega and Ibushi teaming together. While they did focus on that a lot, they also did some stuff that seemed very wacky to me. For example, in the beginning Kenny and Owens made a bunch of quick tags, so it seemed like they were building up to Kenny finally tagging Kota in. In fact, they went so overboard with it that it felt like Kenny was purposely avoiding tagging Kota in for no reason other than to save the spot. Then, at the end, Kenny never tagged Kota in… but f*cking CHASE OWENS makes a hot tag to Kota?

Adam Page pinned Chase Owens to get the win, and after the match, Kenny and Cody were brawling. The Young Bucks came out to break it up, and, once Kenny had gone off with Kota, Cody insisted to everyone that Kenny had started it and accused him of taking Adam Page’s moment once again. Marty doesn’t seem to believe Cody, so, again, we’re right back where we started. This whole match felt like a pointless treading of water, made awkward by the fact that no one seems to remember that Chase Owens is in Bullet Club. It would have made a million times for sense for Kota to be the babyface in peril instead of Chase, with him making the hot tag to Kenny, who would now have to fight his running buddies to save his old friend.

CODY RHODES PROMO- fine.
He says you’re either on his team or Omega’s. He also called Ibushi “Kenny Omega’s rat” and concluded by saying that “Bullet Club is fine… and I’ll add one more thing: Bullet Club is mine!”

This was a complete and total filler show from ROH and New Japan. Basically, they only had one night’s worth of material and tried to stretch it out into two nights, with the result being a totally skippable show. The Bullet Club stuff alone could have justified doing a second show, but even there (after watching last night’s show) it feels like they only had one night’s worth of material, and the real substance happened tomorrow night, making this show a total waste of time.


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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by cero2k » Feb 27th, '18, 10:08

Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 26th, '18, 23:51

KOTA IBUSHI, KENNY OMEGA, & CHASE OWENS vs. BULLET CLUB (Adam Page, Marty Scurll, & Cody Rhodes)- 7.75/10

Those are just two examples of why I think that despite the great action in this match (which I have reflected in my rating), the story here failed. The story of this match was built around two factors. The first was Scurll being conflicted about fighting Omega, which was hurt by the aforementioned logical issues, but killed by the fact that we never got an answer about it. He was ambivalent about it in the beginning, ambivalent about it at the end, and his fluctuations back and forth during the match never had any specific action by Kenny or Cody that brought them on. They existed solely because “we need to have a spot where Marty is unsure of whose side he should be on.”
i think it works with Scurll that he can lose it and go for a finger break a friend because at the end of the day, he IS the villain and tends to do villainy things all the time regardless who he is fighting, but he did notice it was Kenny and stopped himself. Scurll doesn't do the finger break because you piss him off, he does it because he can, kinda like Jimmy Havoc poking Gibson and Drake's eyes at Progress 63, they just do this because they're villains and their nature is to be dicks.

And about Owens, I think it also made sense that Scurll/Page/Cody wouldn't have a problem fighting him because (1) he did side with Omega here, (2) Page/Cody are ROH BC, so Owens is not really part of their little thing, Scurll is Elite, so again, not entirely part of their little group, hence when it all comes down, Owens is most likely staying with the Tongans, he's the 'honorary' Tongan. I think storywise, Cody and Omega's biggest flaw in their plans is that they're both pushing aside the Tongans and that's gonna cost them both.

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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 27th, '18, 14:46

cero2k wrote:
Feb 27th, '18, 10:08
Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 26th, '18, 23:51

KOTA IBUSHI, KENNY OMEGA, & CHASE OWENS vs. BULLET CLUB (Adam Page, Marty Scurll, & Cody Rhodes)- 7.75/10

Those are just two examples of why I think that despite the great action in this match (which I have reflected in my rating), the story here failed. The story of this match was built around two factors. The first was Scurll being conflicted about fighting Omega, which was hurt by the aforementioned logical issues, but killed by the fact that we never got an answer about it. He was ambivalent about it in the beginning, ambivalent about it at the end, and his fluctuations back and forth during the match never had any specific action by Kenny or Cody that brought them on. They existed solely because “we need to have a spot where Marty is unsure of whose side he should be on.”
i think it works with Scurll that he can lose it and go for a finger break a friend because at the end of the day, he IS the villain and tends to do villainy things all the time regardless who he is fighting, but he did notice it was Kenny and stopped himself. Scurll doesn't do the finger break because you piss him off, he does it because he can, kinda like Jimmy Havoc poking Gibson and Drake's eyes at Progress 63, they just do this because they're villains and their nature is to be dicks.

And about Owens, I think it also made sense that Scurll/Page/Cody wouldn't have a problem fighting him because (1) he did side with Omega here, (2) Page/Cody are ROH BC, so Owens is not really part of their little thing, Scurll is Elite, so again, not entirely part of their little group, hence when it all comes down, Owens is most likely staying with the Tongans, he's the 'honorary' Tongan. I think storywise, Cody and Omega's biggest flaw in their plans is that they're both pushing aside the Tongans and that's gonna cost them both.
Did he really "side with" Omega or was he just booked here by the company (to take the fall)? Scurll is also ROH Bullet Club. I'm not sure why you are putting him in The Elite. The Elite is Omega & the Bucks. No one else has been billed as such. They came up with a separate dumb name (The Luxury Trio) for the combination of Scurll, Cody, & Kenny.

I don't think the Tongans thing will cost them as in "The Tongans will be a big force in this feud" so much as it will cost them both a large amount of soldiers they could have otherwise had.
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by cero2k » Feb 27th, '18, 15:52

Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 27th, '18, 14:46


Did he really "side with" Omega or was he just booked here by the company (to take the fall)? Scurll is also ROH Bullet Club. I'm not sure why you are putting him in The Elite. The Elite is Omega & the Bucks. No one else has been billed as such. They came up with a separate dumb name (The Luxury Trio) for the combination of Scurll, Cody, & Kenny.

I don't think the Tongans thing will cost them as in "The Tongans will be a big force in this feud" so much as it will cost them both a large amount of soldiers they could have otherwise had.
Kenny got Owens to tag with him in Being the Elite, and i didn't say Scurll ain't ROH, but to me he's more Elite since he's been doing a lot of the Being the Elite, but he's not a ROH guy that joined BC like Page and Cody. Either way applies as to why they no problem fighting Owens.

Tongans will have the numbers at the end, so it's not like they're gonna take over, but i'm sure Cody thinking he has them will cost Cody or something. The Tongans leaving will be a big angle in this story.

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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 27th, '18, 16:50

cero2k wrote:
Feb 27th, '18, 15:52
Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 27th, '18, 14:46


Did he really "side with" Omega or was he just booked here by the company (to take the fall)? Scurll is also ROH Bullet Club. I'm not sure why you are putting him in The Elite. The Elite is Omega & the Bucks. No one else has been billed as such. They came up with a separate dumb name (The Luxury Trio) for the combination of Scurll, Cody, & Kenny.

I don't think the Tongans thing will cost them as in "The Tongans will be a big force in this feud" so much as it will cost them both a large amount of soldiers they could have otherwise had.
Kenny got Owens to tag with him in Being the Elite, and i didn't say Scurll ain't ROH, but to me he's more Elite since he's been doing a lot of the Being the Elite, but he's not a ROH guy that joined BC like Page and Cody. Either way applies as to why they no problem fighting Owens.

Tongans will have the numbers at the end, so it's not like they're gonna take over, but i'm sure Cody thinking he has them will cost Cody or something. The Tongans leaving will be a big angle in this story.
Cody and Page have been on Being The Elite for a while, too. And Cody joined Bullet Club in New Japan, not in ROH. Scurll and Page are the only two who joined in ROH,.

The Tongans leaving will be a big moment, but I don't think it will be a consequential one, if that makes sense. It will explain why they're not siding with anyone and will spawn their new Tongan stable, but I think it will be more of them saying "we're sick of this" and leaving the angle rather than them starting to feud with Team Cody and Team Kenny to turn this into a three-way feud.
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by cero2k » Feb 27th, '18, 21:37

Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 27th, '18, 16:50

Cody and Page have been on Being The Elite for a while, too. And Cody joined Bullet Club in New Japan, not in ROH. Scurll and Page are the only two who joined in ROH,.
Cody debuted for ROH before NJPW, but anyway, irrelevant technicalities, Owens is not part of either subgroup and none of them should have a problem fighting him

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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 28th, '18, 08:45

cero2k wrote:
Feb 27th, '18, 21:37
Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 27th, '18, 16:50

Cody and Page have been on Being The Elite for a while, too. And Cody joined Bullet Club in New Japan, not in ROH. Scurll and Page are the only two who joined in ROH,.
Cody debuted for ROH before NJPW, but anyway, irrelevant technicalities, Owens is not part of either subgroup and none of them should have a problem fighting him
He might have debuted in ROH first, but he became a member of Bullet Club in New Japan, with lots of hype around it. And while Owens might not be a member of either subgroup, there is no reason they be so eager to fight him but not so eager to fight Omega. Aren't they all one big group? If Kenny and Page could hang out together, why not Marty and Owens?
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by cero2k » Feb 28th, '18, 09:38

Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 28th, '18, 08:45

He might have debuted in ROH first, but he became a member of Bullet Club in New Japan, with lots of hype around it. And while Owens might not be a member of either subgroup, there is no reason they be so eager to fight him but not so eager to fight Omega. Aren't they all one big group? If Kenny and Page could hang out together, why not Marty and Owens?
you're completely missing the point, all of these problems are because they're not just one big group anymore, Omega has his little Elite and Cody has his little ROH friend Page, Scurll is in the middle of everything, and the Tongans are left in the middle; and now both Cody and Omega want to lead everything. Scurll is Omega's friend, but Owens team member, Owens hangs out with the Tongans, he doesn't travel to the US like the rest. That's why Scurll has no problem wrestling Owens but he is conflicted about hurting Omega.

Scurll is Spiderman, Omega is Cap, and Cody is Ironman. This is a civil war and people will sometimes be ok fighting the people they know, sometimes they'll be conflicted, we're barely in the choosing sides part of this war

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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 28th, '18, 10:56

cero2k wrote:
Feb 28th, '18, 09:38
Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 28th, '18, 08:45

He might have debuted in ROH first, but he became a member of Bullet Club in New Japan, with lots of hype around it. And while Owens might not be a member of either subgroup, there is no reason they be so eager to fight him but not so eager to fight Omega. Aren't they all one big group? If Kenny and Page could hang out together, why not Marty and Owens?
you're completely missing the point, all of these problems are because they're not just one big group anymore, Omega has his little Elite and Cody has his little ROH friend Page, Scurll is in the middle of everything, and the Tongans are left in the middle; and now both Cody and Omega want to lead everything. Scurll is Omega's friend, but Owens team member, Owens hangs out with the Tongans, he doesn't travel to the US like the rest. That's why Scurll has no problem wrestling Owens but he is conflicted about hurting Omega.

Scurll is Spiderman, Omega is Cap, and Cody is Ironman. This is a civil war and people will sometimes be ok fighting the people they know, sometimes they'll be conflicted, we're barely in the choosing sides part of this war
That works fine for the finger-breaking or doing the Terminator pose, but not for putting Kenny in a f*cking headlock. They're professional combat athletes. Yes, Owens isn't totally part of their little subgroup, but he's still been part of the group for a while and a relationship of camaraderie has been forged. Just because they were never on the same team didn't mean that Ms. Marvel was super-eager to throw down with Luke Cage.
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by cero2k » Feb 28th, '18, 12:29

Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 28th, '18, 10:56


That works fine for the finger-breaking or doing the Terminator pose, but not for putting Kenny in a f*cking headlock. They're professional combat athletes. Yes, Owens isn't totally part of their little subgroup, but he's still been part of the group for a while and a relationship of camaraderie has been forged. Just because they were never on the same team didn't mean that Ms. Marvel was super-eager to throw down with Luke Cage.
he was conflicted about wrestling his friend, it's perfectly reasonable, hence they initially mat wrestled. Scurll wasn't exactly eager to fight Owens either, he was just more comfortable, there was a lot of difference on how Scurll fought Kenny and how he fought Ibushi and how he fought Owens and Kenny did the same with Page and Cody, and just because they're part of the same group doesn't mean there's camaraderie, Tama Tonga seems to hate Kenny, I hate my teammate at work, and in this particular case, Scurll gives no fucks about Owens, and neither does Page or Cody.

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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 28th, '18, 23:29

cero2k wrote:
Feb 28th, '18, 12:29
Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 28th, '18, 10:56


That works fine for the finger-breaking or doing the Terminator pose, but not for putting Kenny in a f*cking headlock. They're professional combat athletes. Yes, Owens isn't totally part of their little subgroup, but he's still been part of the group for a while and a relationship of camaraderie has been forged. Just because they were never on the same team didn't mean that Ms. Marvel was super-eager to throw down with Luke Cage.
he was conflicted about wrestling his friend, it's perfectly reasonable, hence they initially mat wrestled. Scurll wasn't exactly eager to fight Owens either, he was just more comfortable, there was a lot of difference on how Scurll fought Kenny and how he fought Ibushi and how he fought Owens and Kenny did the same with Page and Cody, and just because they're part of the same group doesn't mean there's camaraderie, Tama Tonga seems to hate Kenny, I hate my teammate at work, and in this particular case, Scurll gives no fucks about Owens, and neither does Page or Cody.
You and your teammate aren't combat athletes.
Tama Tonga seemed to hate Kenny for literally one match. That's it. AJ and Fale seemed to hate each other for one match, too, then they were buddies again. My point is that in a company where guys in the same stable almost never fight each other, for Owens to basically be treated like he's not part of the group when no one has a quarrel with him makes no sense to me.
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by cero2k » Mar 1st, '18, 09:27

Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 28th, '18, 23:29

You and your teammate aren't combat athletes.
Tama Tonga seemed to hate Kenny for literally one match. That's it. AJ and Fale seemed to hate each other for one match, too, then they were buddies again. My point is that in a company where guys in the same stable almost never fight each other, for Owens to basically be treated like he's not part of the group when no one has a quarrel with him makes no sense to me.
Tama Tonga seemed to hate Kenny for one match, but have you seen them be buddies ever since? Owens wasn't treated like he wasn't part of the team, they jjust have less of a problem wrestling with him than Kenny who is more of a personal friend.

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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 1st, '18, 11:14

cero2k wrote:
Mar 1st, '18, 09:27
Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 28th, '18, 23:29

You and your teammate aren't combat athletes.
Tama Tonga seemed to hate Kenny for literally one match. That's it. AJ and Fale seemed to hate each other for one match, too, then they were buddies again. My point is that in a company where guys in the same stable almost never fight each other, for Owens to basically be treated like he's not part of the group when no one has a quarrel with him makes no sense to me.
Tama Tonga seemed to hate Kenny for one match, but have you seen them be buddies ever since? Owens wasn't treated like he wasn't part of the team, they jjust have less of a problem wrestling with him than Kenny who is more of a personal friend.
Owens definitely felt like he wasn't part of the team during the post-match stuff, where he was the only one not involved.

Tama Tonga hasn't given Kenny any more lectures and they have teamed together a few times without incidents, so why would we not assume they're cool?
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by cero2k » Mar 1st, '18, 11:34

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 1st, '18, 11:14

Owens definitely felt like he wasn't part of the team during the post-match stuff, where he was the only one not involved.

Tama Tonga hasn't given Kenny any more lectures and they have teamed together a few times without incidents, so why would we not assume they're cool?
in both cases, because neither man are part of the civil war yet, both Owens and Tama are with the Tongans. Owens didn't even wanted to be in this match before Kenny got him to tag with him and Tama Tonga while literally not doing anything to show that there is no conflict, you can tell he gives no fucks about kenny or Cody. I know you hate the idea because they don't straight up tell you to watch it, but it's all in being the elite for the past weeks.

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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 1st, '18, 13:45

cero2k wrote:
Mar 1st, '18, 11:34
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 1st, '18, 11:14

Owens definitely felt like he wasn't part of the team during the post-match stuff, where he was the only one not involved.

Tama Tonga hasn't given Kenny any more lectures and they have teamed together a few times without incidents, so why would we not assume they're cool?
in both cases, because neither man are part of the civil war yet, both Owens and Tama are with the Tongans. Owens didn't even wanted to be in this match before Kenny got him to tag with him and Tama Tonga while literally not doing anything to show that there is no conflict, you can tell he gives no fucks about kenny or Cody. I know you hate the idea because they don't straight up tell you to watch it, but it's all in being the elite for the past weeks.
They need to decide what this angle is. It feels like it's an ROH angle, taking place in New Japan, with the backstage segments all being filmed WWE-style on Being The Elite, which doesn't at all fit in with the way that either ROH or New Japan present their product.

How is Owens choosing to team with Kenny not him choosing to become a part of the war?
As for Tama Tonga, if he doesn't care about this sh*t, then they should be showing him moving on with business as usual. He should be giving post-match speeches, too. He doesn't have to mention Kenny or Cody at all, but he should be providing an example of what a leader of Bullet Club should be (think of it like Gabe's plan for Tyler Black to respond to Jimmy Jacobs descent into madness/vendetta against Aries by just continuing to preach the AOTF's message). That would make perfect sense based on what happened with him and Kenny in the G1 and would also set him up as the leader of the Tongan stable that everyone thinks is going to come out of this as a separate entity. But instead he's doing nothing because Gedo doesn't understand how to tell a nuanced- or really even coherent- story that doesn't revolve entirely around "we both want the title."
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by cero2k » Mar 2nd, '18, 11:33

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 1st, '18, 13:45

They need to decide what this angle is. It feels like it's an ROH angle, taking place in New Japan, with the backstage segments all being filmed WWE-style on Being The Elite, which doesn't at all fit in with the way that either ROH or New Japan present their product.

How is Owens choosing to team with Kenny not him choosing to become a part of the war?
As for Tama Tonga, if he doesn't care about this sh*t, then they should be showing him moving on with business as usual. He should be giving post-match speeches, too. He doesn't have to mention Kenny or Cody at all, but he should be providing an example of what a leader of Bullet Club should be (think of it like Gabe's plan for Tyler Black to respond to Jimmy Jacobs descent into madness/vendetta against Aries by just continuing to preach the AOTF's message). That would make perfect sense based on what happened with him and Kenny in the G1 and would also set him up as the leader of the Tongan stable that everyone thinks is going to come out of this as a separate entity. But instead he's doing nothing because Gedo doesn't understand how to tell a nuanced- or really even coherent- story that doesn't revolve entirely around "we both want the title."
maybe wrestling angles in 2018 don't have to be 'something', wrestling angles that go across promotions and even into youtube don't have to be a 'ROH Angle' or a 'NJPW angle'. Are we complaining that 205Live is not being booked 'NXT-style'? Most of what you're asking for is in Being the Elite and the other videos Kenny, Ibushi, Tonga, and NJPW has released.

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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 2nd, '18, 11:46

cero2k wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 11:33
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 1st, '18, 13:45

They need to decide what this angle is. It feels like it's an ROH angle, taking place in New Japan, with the backstage segments all being filmed WWE-style on Being The Elite, which doesn't at all fit in with the way that either ROH or New Japan present their product.

How is Owens choosing to team with Kenny not him choosing to become a part of the war?
As for Tama Tonga, if he doesn't care about this sh*t, then they should be showing him moving on with business as usual. He should be giving post-match speeches, too. He doesn't have to mention Kenny or Cody at all, but he should be providing an example of what a leader of Bullet Club should be (think of it like Gabe's plan for Tyler Black to respond to Jimmy Jacobs descent into madness/vendetta against Aries by just continuing to preach the AOTF's message). That would make perfect sense based on what happened with him and Kenny in the G1 and would also set him up as the leader of the Tongan stable that everyone thinks is going to come out of this as a separate entity. But instead he's doing nothing because Gedo doesn't understand how to tell a nuanced- or really even coherent- story that doesn't revolve entirely around "we both want the title."
maybe wrestling angles in 2018 don't have to be 'something', wrestling angles that go across promotions and even into youtube don't have to be a 'ROH Angle' or a 'NJPW angle'. Are we complaining that 205Live is not being booked 'NXT-style'? Most of what you're asking for is in Being the Elite and the other videos Kenny, Ibushi, Tonga, and NJPW has released.
No. We're not complaining that 205 Live isn't being booked like NXT because the presentations are the same. They both use the "pretend the camera is not there" method of presentation (although, to their credit, they use it as sparsely as possible). The problem with this angle is that you have two promotions that use the "it's a sport, so there needs to be a reason for there to be a camera here" style of presentation, and then trying to fill in the details on a show that is officially sanctioned by neither promotion that does use the WWE style of presentation. It creates a disconnect; and especially with Being The Elite where not everything that happens there is supposed to be kayfabe.

The wrestlers and promotion(s) should be trying to make this as accessible as possible, and I think that New Japan in particular is failing that. Compare it to wXw, where 75% of the promos are in German, but they always make sure to have video packages with subtitles to let you know what's going on and what is important. Every major company in the world- and many, many, minor ones, too- use video packages for this simple purpose. New Japan should be, too. I shouldn't have to scour the internet of my own accord to find the right videos to make the story make sense.
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by cero2k » Mar 2nd, '18, 13:27

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 11:46

No. We're not complaining that 205 Live isn't being booked like NXT because the presentations are the same. They both use the "pretend the camera is not there" method of presentation (although, to their credit, they use it as sparsely as possible). The problem with this angle is that you have two promotions that use the "it's a sport, so there needs to be a reason for there to be a camera here" style of presentation, and then trying to fill in the details on a show that is officially sanctioned by neither promotion that does use the WWE style of presentation. It creates a disconnect; and especially with Being The Elite where not everything that happens there is supposed to be kayfabe.

The wrestlers and promotion(s) should be trying to make this as accessible as possible, and I think that New Japan in particular is failing that. Compare it to wXw, where 75% of the promos are in German, but they always make sure to have video packages with subtitles to let you know what's going on and what is important. Every major company in the world- and many, many, minor ones, too- use video packages for this simple purpose. New Japan should be, too. I shouldn't have to scour the internet of my own accord to find the right videos to make the story make sense.
is it really a disconnect? You more than a million of fans know for a fact that wrestling is fake, how is a camera being there or not a disconnect when in monday you saw Matt Hardy and Bray Wyatt have superpowers leading to a 'legit' fighter Ronda Rousey? I don't know what to tell you, it's 2018, there is a reason that Okada and Naito are not in Being the Elite. You have to realize that NJPW is trying to get into the US market and maybe they feel that a story like this is what americans like, just like ROH, years ago started thinking the same, because you know, americans seem to really like WWE.

what is more accessible than Youtube? NJPW uploads most if not all their promos, backstage promos, and extras, with subtitles on their youtube channel. Callis and Kelly run a post-show in english after every show. Bullet Club always mention their angles from both ROH and NJPW in Being the Elite. Youtube is not scouring the internet, i can literally follow everything that happens in NJPW (or WWE or Impact) via youtube and not watch the show at all.

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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 2nd, '18, 13:51

cero2k wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 13:27
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 11:46

No. We're not complaining that 205 Live isn't being booked like NXT because the presentations are the same. They both use the "pretend the camera is not there" method of presentation (although, to their credit, they use it as sparsely as possible). The problem with this angle is that you have two promotions that use the "it's a sport, so there needs to be a reason for there to be a camera here" style of presentation, and then trying to fill in the details on a show that is officially sanctioned by neither promotion that does use the WWE style of presentation. It creates a disconnect; and especially with Being The Elite where not everything that happens there is supposed to be kayfabe.

The wrestlers and promotion(s) should be trying to make this as accessible as possible, and I think that New Japan in particular is failing that. Compare it to wXw, where 75% of the promos are in German, but they always make sure to have video packages with subtitles to let you know what's going on and what is important. Every major company in the world- and many, many, minor ones, too- use video packages for this simple purpose. New Japan should be, too. I shouldn't have to scour the internet of my own accord to find the right videos to make the story make sense.
is it really a disconnect? You more than a million of fans know for a fact that wrestling is fake, how is a camera being there or not a disconnect when in monday you saw Matt Hardy and Bray Wyatt have superpowers leading to a 'legit' fighter Ronda Rousey? I don't know what to tell you, it's 2018, there is a reason that Okada and Naito are not in Being the Elite. You have to realize that NJPW is trying to get into the US market and maybe they feel that a story like this is what americans like, just like ROH, years ago started thinking the same, because you know, americans seem to really like WWE.

what is more accessible than Youtube? NJPW uploads most if not all their promos, backstage promos, and extras, with subtitles on their youtube channel. Callis and Kelly run a post-show in english after every show. Bullet Club always mention their angles from both ROH and NJPW in Being the Elite. Youtube is not scouring the internet, i can literally follow everything that happens in NJPW (or WWE or Impact) via youtube and not watch the show at all.
The difference is that this has to do with the fundamental presentation of the show changing mid-presentation (lacking a better term). It's not about the show being fake or not. It's about how the fakeness is presented. If a TV show were shot entirely like a regular show and then suddenly, for five minutes, people started talking to the camera like a documentary, then went back to ignoring the camera, wouldn't you be confused?
In WWE (and LU, and on Being The Elite, and other places) we are asked to just pretend that the camera isn't there. Similarly, for the purposes of Bray Wyatt, Matt Hardy, Undertaker, Sting, Kane, etc. we are asked to accept that they have magical powers. I can think it's stupid. for anyone to have magical powers, but that is what WWE wants us to accept about their universe when these characters are involved. That's why it's not an issue when one of those guys take over the TitanTron, but when, say, Marius Al-Ani randomly did it in wXw last month, it was a problem, or why these guys can magically make the lights turn out, but Gabe felt the need to explain how the Age of the Fall or the Rotweillers were able to do so when it was convenient for them. With MMA fighters, the idea is that MMA and pro wrestling are kayfabe two different spots. MMA takes skill and thus we know that these people are very dangerous (especially ones like Ronda and Brock with excellent records), but their presence is not an issue unless you have some idiot like Taz on commentary telling us that these guys are "legit."
The fact that Being The Elite is show WWE-style while ROH and New Japan are shot in the more "real sports" "we need to explain why the camera is here to see this" style creates a disconnect because the way things are shot is suddenly changing. It'd be like Dario turning and talking to the camera in the middle of an LU segment as if there was an actual cameraman filming the conversation he was having. It's the same reason I get annoyed when someone in a backstage segment on Raw will be having a conversation on speaker-phone and then suddenly switch to regular mode for no reason other than so that we, the camera that they supposedly don't know is there won't hear it and spoil the plan to us viewers.

Quite frankly, they shouldn't be expecting fans to go to YouTube to figure out what's going on. We all only have so much time in our day, and I don't want to sit through fifteen minutes of bullsh*t to see three storyline-relevant minutes of Being The Elite.
Post-shows are nice and all, but they don't help me understand what is happening there in that moment, and I would much rather have a pre-match video package to bring me up to speed then getting a post-match show to explain what happened and then having to wait three weeks to the next show for that all to become relevant.
The fact that you can follow everything that happens in a promotion via YouTube for a promotion that runs TV like WWE, NJPW, or TNA, is quite frankly, a huge mistake on their part because it makes the TV show skippable. Compare that to PROGRESS or EVOLVE or wXw, where you need to watch each show.
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 1 (skippable)

Post by cero2k » Mar 2nd, '18, 16:25

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 13:51

The difference is that this has to do with the fundamental presentation of the show changing mid-presentation (lacking a better term). It's not about the show being fake or not. It's about how the fakeness is presented. If a TV show were shot entirely like a regular show and then suddenly, for five minutes, people started talking to the camera like a documentary, then went back to ignoring the camera, wouldn't you be confused?
In WWE (and LU, and on Being The Elite, and other places) we are asked to just pretend that the camera isn't there. Similarly, for the purposes of Bray Wyatt, Matt Hardy, Undertaker, Sting, Kane, etc. we are asked to accept that they have magical powers. I can think it's stupid. for anyone to have magical powers, but that is what WWE wants us to accept about their universe when these characters are involved. That's why it's not an issue when one of those guys take over the TitanTron, but when, say, Marius Al-Ani randomly did it in wXw last month, it was a problem, or why these guys can magically make the lights turn out, but Gabe felt the need to explain how the Age of the Fall or the Rotweillers were able to do so when it was convenient for them. With MMA fighters, the idea is that MMA and pro wrestling are kayfabe two different spots. MMA takes skill and thus we know that these people are very dangerous (especially ones like Ronda and Brock with excellent records), but their presence is not an issue unless you have some idiot like Taz on commentary telling us that these guys are "legit."
The fact that Being The Elite is show WWE-style while ROH and New Japan are shot in the more "real sports" "we need to explain why the camera is here to see this" style creates a disconnect because the way things are shot is suddenly changing. It'd be like Dario turning and talking to the camera in the middle of an LU segment as if there was an actual cameraman filming the conversation he was having. It's the same reason I get annoyed when someone in a backstage segment on Raw will be having a conversation on speaker-phone and then suddenly switch to regular mode for no reason other than so that we, the camera that they supposedly don't know is there won't hear it and spoil the plan to us viewers.


Quite frankly, they shouldn't be expecting fans to go to YouTube to figure out what's going on. We all only have so much time in our day, and I don't want to sit through fifteen minutes of bullsh*t to see three storyline-relevant minutes of Being The Elite.
Post-shows are nice and all, but they don't help me understand what is happening there in that moment, and I would much rather have a pre-match video package to bring me up to speed then getting a post-match show to explain what happened and then having to wait three weeks to the next show for that all to become relevant.
The fact that you can follow everything that happens in a promotion via YouTube for a promotion that runs TV like WWE, NJPW, or TNA, is quite frankly, a huge mistake on their part because it makes the TV show skippable. Compare that to PROGRESS or EVOLVE or wXw, where you need to watch each show.
that is honestly really nitpicky, but if it matters, then it's as easy as Being The Elite has always been about a camera crew following The Bucks, Kenny, and company. You're trying to encapsulate this storyline as a ROH/NJPW story and it SHOULD be like all their stories. It's a Bullet Club story, it goes beyond how ROH and NJPW present their stuff.

I bring up the WWE thing because even if the fans accept that magic exists in the WWE universe, you're also being told that Stephanie is both a heel and a revolutionary woman, you're being told that Lesnar is a legit fighter that fights a guy that has a demon inside him and comes out in the form of face paint. Talk about consistency in your product. But anyway, that is irrelevant in this conversation

no one really expects you to watch all the content, you can easily enjoy the story without every little single detail as why Cody was smiling and not frowning in that particular move on such and such promo, but if you really want to cover every single detail, then i think you should at least put in that effort to make sure that after watching all the content, it's still not there. Even in the most abstract way of things, the story we've seen is that Cody and Omega had problems back in dominion, Cody failed to achieve the things that Omega could, Cody failed to defeat Omega's former friend and in return, Cody eventually attacked Kenny. We saw Kenny accidentally hit one of the Bucks thus they're not seeing eye to eye and we see Kenny go with Ibushi while some of the BC are still conflicted and some aren't, and there you go, not a single reference to ROH or BTE.

CHIKARA expected me to read blogs, read! Gabe used to expect me to watch a bunch of ROH house shows, and now he expects me to watch his whole WWN programming to understand what the hell does that title that Keith Lee has means. And let's not even talk about WWE expectations. And you can't compare wXw, PROGRESS, or EVOLVE to NJPW, WWE, ROH, or even Impact because the prior have no TV deals, they literally exist based on selling the show via VOD or DVD or tickets.

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