Roles reversed?

[kirbs2002]

Thinking about the whole Edge and Kane feud recently, I got to thinking; is there a feud where you think that the face is really the bad guy?

[Y2J]

There have been times where I've sympathised with the heel more so than the face. I thought CM Punk was morally in the right at the beggining of his feud with Jeff Hardy. He was making good points about how reckless Jeff was with the decisions he made, yet he done so without forcing his own lifestyle down our throats, untill the fans drove him over the edge and he founded the straightedge society. The same could be said for Chris Jericho in his second rivalry with Shawn Michaels back in 2008. All Chris had done was point out the truth that HBK could basically get away with murder and still be adored by the fans.

I think there comes a point in a wrestler's career where they've gained so much respect over time that they can sort of colour outside the lines and not worry too much about commiting heelish actions even if they're a face. This was shown a few years ago when Triple H gave both London & Kendrick a pedigree after they tried to save him from a beating. Or in the example Kirbs gave with Edge kidnapping Paul Bearer one of the few people to ever love Kane. With WWE it's all one big popularity contest and most people are going to cheer whoever the hottest commodity is at the time whether it's Austin, Rock, Cena, Orton ect. It may be a sheep mentality to have but it's much better than the way most TNA fans cheer just about everybody which makes people less emotionally invested in the matches because they care less about the character aspect of wrestling and more about seeing their favourite wrestlers perform all their crazy spots and moves. It's not good for buisness which is why WWE > TNA will remain the equation for years and years to come.

[Big Red Machine]

There have been times where I've sympathised with the heel more so than the face. I thought CM Punk was morally in the right at the beggining of his feud with Jeff Hardy. He was making good points about how reckless Jeff was with the decisions he made, yet he done so without forcing his own lifestyle down our throats, untill the fans drove him over the edge and he founded the straightedge society. The same could be said for Chris Jericho in his second rivalry with Shawn Michaels back in 2008. All Chris had done was point out the truth that HBK could basically get away with murder and still be adored by the fans.

This is what makes those angles great. That there was at least a sliver (if not much more) of truth to the heel's words.

I think there comes a point in a wrestler's career where they've gained so much respect over time that they can sort of colour outside the lines and not worry too much about commiting heelish actions even if they're a face. This was shown a few years ago when Triple H gave both London & Kendrick a pedigree after they tried to save him from a beating. Or in the example Kirbs gave with Edge kidnapping Paul Bearer one of the few people to ever love Kane. With WWE it's all one big popularity contest and most people are going to cheer whoever the hottest commodity is at the time whether it's Austin, Rock, Cena, Orton ect. It may be a sheep mentality to have but it's much better than the way most TNA fans cheer just about everybody which makes people less emotionally invested in the matches because they care less about the character aspect of wrestling and more about seeing their favourite wrestlers perform all their crazy spots and moves. It's not good for buisness which is why WWE > TNA will remain the equation for years and years to come.

I see what you are saying, but I think that there comes a point where a line needs to be drawn. Yes, guys who are big, well respected names (even just within their own promotion, rather than all over, like Dragon in ROH) can get away with doing heelish stuff despite being babyfaces, but I think there is a point where these sorts of actions can no longer be overlooked. To me, KIDNAPPING, and then CAUSING ONE PERSON TO KILL ANOTHER is about 75 miles on the WRONG SIDE OF THAT LINE. There is a huge difference between what Edge did, and Austin flipping off an abused babyface Stacy Keibler because heel Test demanded that Austin do so. There is a HUGE difference between Stacy getting her feelings hurt and Paul Bearer DYING. To pretend that Edge is a babyface at this point is just silly.

[kirbs2002]

I think there comes a point in a wrestler's career where they've gained so much respect over time that they can sort of colour outside the lines and not worry too much about commiting heelish actions even if they're a face. This was shown a few years ago when Triple H gave both London & Kendrick a pedigree after they tried to save him from a beating. Or in the example Kirbs gave with Edge kidnapping Paul Bearer one of the few people to ever love Kane. With WWE it's all one big popularity contest and most people are going to cheer whoever the hottest commodity is at the time whether it's Austin, Rock, Cena, Orton ect. It may be a sheep mentality to have but it's much better than the way most TNA fans cheer just about everybody which makes people less emotionally invested in the matches because they care less about the character aspect of wrestling and more about seeing their favourite wrestlers perform all their crazy spots and moves. It's not good for buisness which is why WWE > TNA will remain the equation for years and years to come.

I see what you are saying, but I think that there comes a point where a line needs to be drawn. Yes, guys who are big, well respected names (even just within their own promotion, rather than all over, like Dragon in ROH) can get away with doing heelish stuff despite being babyfaces, but I think there is a point where these sorts of actions can no longer be overlooked. To me, KIDNAPPING, and then CAUSING ONE PERSON TO KILL ANOTHER is about 75 miles on the WRONG SIDE OF THAT LINE. There is a huge difference between what Edge did, and Austin flipping off an abused babyface Stacy Keibler because heel Test demanded that Austin do so. There is a HUGE difference between Stacy getting her feelings hurt and Paul Bearer DYING. To pretend that Edge is a babyface at this point is just silly.

To go you one further, to put someone out of wrestling with a brutal attack outside of a match (Orton's punt to Jericho), is also far beyond that line mentioned. That should without question qualify anyone as a heel.

[Big Red Machine]

I think there comes a point in a wrestler's career where they've gained so much respect over time that they can sort of colour outside the lines and not worry too much about commiting heelish actions even if they're a face. This was shown a few years ago when Triple H gave both London & Kendrick a pedigree after they tried to save him from a beating. Or in the example Kirbs gave with Edge kidnapping Paul Bearer one of the few people to ever love Kane. With WWE it's all one big popularity contest and most people are going to cheer whoever the hottest commodity is at the time whether it's Austin, Rock, Cena, Orton ect. It may be a sheep mentality to have but it's much better than the way most TNA fans cheer just about everybody which makes people less emotionally invested in the matches because they care less about the character aspect of wrestling and more about seeing their favourite wrestlers perform all their crazy spots and moves. It's not good for buisness which is why WWE > TNA will remain the equation for years and years to come.

I see what you are saying, but I think that there comes a point where a line needs to be drawn. Yes, guys who are big, well respected names (even just within their own promotion, rather than all over, like Dragon in ROH) can get away with doing heelish stuff despite being babyfaces, but I think there is a point where these sorts of actions can no longer be overlooked. To me, KIDNAPPING, and then CAUSING ONE PERSON TO KILL ANOTHER is about 75 miles on the WRONG SIDE OF THAT LINE. There is a huge difference between what Edge did, and Austin flipping off an abused babyface Stacy Keibler because heel Test demanded that Austin do so. There is a HUGE difference between Stacy getting her feelings hurt and Paul Bearer DYING. To pretend that Edge is a babyface at this point is just silly.

To go you one further, to put someone out of wrestling with a brutal attack outside of a match (Orton's punt to Jericho), is also far beyond that line mentioned. That should without question qualify anyone as a heel.

Orton, I think, it a tweener-babyface, rather than a babyface or a heel. He is self-interested, and freely admits this, but his self-interest usually leads him to do "good" things, thus, IMO, making him a tweener, not a heel. The problem has been that WWE wanted the fans to react to him like a babyface, and so announcers were instructed to ignore the tweener-ness of his actions, which has hurt his character.

[KILLdozer]

well idk speaking of orton and his allignment he said on raw no more mr nice guy in 2011,that basically,,since hes become a face its screwed him up so hopefully this means a heel turn for him,,,what made me mad was another point of this topic he basically did A promo hinting at a possible heel turn and they cheered him anyways

[Big Red Machine]

well idk speaking of orton and his allignment he said on raw no more mr nice guy in 2011,that basically,,since hes become a face its screwed him up so hopefully this means a heel turn for him,,,what made me mad was another point of this topic he basically did A promo hinting at a possible heel turn and they cheered him anyways

I think it is more of a hint at becoming a full-on tweener at this point. Either way, I am digging it, and it will be fun to see the change in Randy's character.

[Lynas]

Well for this I look at the opening of this Cena/CM Punk feud, when the mic duelled. Everything Punk said about Cena was true, and I found myself believing him, I don't know if he was just the better storyteller, or whether my love for Punk clouded the judgement. But on that one, the heel's words were true & had substance to them.

[ECWFlairfan]

Well for this I look at the opening of this Cena/CM Punk feud, when the mic duelled. Everything Punk said about Cena was true, and I found myself believing him, I don't know if he was just the better storyteller, or whether my love for Punk clouded the judgement. But on that one, the heel's words were true & had substance to them.

I've been noticing the fans cheering Punk more & I love it...lol