The Final Conquest: Why NXT May Be A Long-Term Negative For Pro-Wrestling

[Big Red Machine]

http://www.cubedcirclewrestling.com/blo ... long-term/

Ryan Clingman
March 5, 2016
Features

Triple H has served, since his initial rise to prominence in the late 1990s and early 2000s, as one of the most controversial figures in contemporary professional wrestling. His influence in the complex web of WWE backstage politics during the Attitude Era, particularly in the later years cannot be denied – from his role as the mischievous voice in the ear of an already shrewd Shawn Michaels, to his relationship and eventual marriage to Stephanie McMahon – a matrimony that saw the couple emerge as the heir apparent pair to the WWE throne. Controversial or otherwise, Paul Levesque may very well be one of the greatest politicians in the history of pro-wrestling, or at the very least, of the last several decades.



Few of his major programmes, perhaps since his true star making rivalry with Mick Foley in 2000, have failed to yield discussion of his true motives and allegedly unprofessional political strategies, as he went on to dominate the early 2000s title scene – using his political sway, to, as some may argue, cut-down potential main event talent such as Scott Steiner and Booker T. Debates continued for the majority of Hunter’s main roster in-ring career, with the lines between work, shoot, politicking, and self (un)-awareness blurring further as the years wore on. The term “buried” juxtaposed with images of Triple H and his numerous championship belts became a common meme, perhaps even losing meaning in some circles as a result. Levesque, and the company’s creative, seemed well aware of this public perception leading into WrestleMania 30, where perennial underdog, Daniel Bryan, was seemingly emasculated, undermined, and as some argued “buried”, before overcoming in the main event of 2014’s largest show.
Hunter posing with a newly signed Shinsuke Nakamura.

Hunter posing with a newly signed Shinsuke Nakamura.

The “buried” term has given way on a smaller scale to the “political hit” phrase coined by Dylan Hales, with the booking of the supposed future face of the company, Roman Reigns, so poor that the notion of Hunter sabotaging Vince’s main project for his own political gains seeming far less absurd than it would at first site, despite becoming a meme of sorts in its own right.



And yet, despite close to two decades of controversy, well known to observers of the industry, Hunter has in some sense donned a fourth persona, distinct from that of his on screen character, political hit figure, or corporate identity. Paul Levesque, Executive Vice President of Talent Relations, Live Events & Creative, is now to many core fans, perhaps even a majority, the unlikely saviour of the company – a messiah waiting to ascend to position of CEO and spawn a new boom period, fronted by indie darlings, with a focus on the in-ring product, and emphasis on non-scripted promos, and believability. As ludicrous as this notion may be, given out of context and with the above backdrop, there is at least some degree of credence that we may lend to this idea of Hunter as a future positive figure for the business. After all, NXT has become one of the most beloved properties in wrestling over the past several years.



Whilst Triple H is a man to have openly acknowledged perceived differences between the NXT and main roster audiences, he is also the man who signed (or at least approved) El Generico, Prince Devitt, La Sombra, Samoa Joe, Austin Aries, Kevin Steen, Uhaa Nation, Rich Swann, Biff Busick, Axel Tischer, Shinsuke Nakamura, AJ Styles, KENTA, Karl Anderson, Doc Gallows, KANA, and perhaps even Kota Ibushi. He created one of, if not the very best, women’s division the company has ever seen, certainly pushing female NXT talent harder and further than any women’s division at any other time in company history. NXT offers a back to basics approach as far as storylines are concerned, and from an in-ring perspective, at least on the Takeover specials, has often out-shined the main roster. Levesque has even gone as far as to announce a cruiserweight tournament to feature unsigned talent from around the world, a concept nearly incomprehensible but a couple of years ago. Why then, given the successes and positive decisions made in NXT, should we question Hunter’s intentions and NXT’s potential impact on the business? If he is attempting to change the way that the company treats wrestling in ways craved by generations of pundits and observers, why question NXT, and moreover, why question Paul Levesque?



One could turn to conspiracies, suggesting that Hunter is simply attempting to win the support of those in and outside of the company, and given his reputation as one of wrestling’s all-time great politicians, perhaps there is some degree of truth in this assertion. But, for as intriguing as such conjectures may be, what really bears mentioning is not the set of potential deceptions behind the developmental brand, but the very nature of the NXT model itself.



From the perspective of individual international talent, NXT is a wonderful entity, offering better pay and status than any WWE/F developmental system prior. For some independent companies affiliated with NXT, such as WWN, the existence of such a system with whom to partner may be beneficial, at least in the short term. And most certainly in the short term, wrestling fans are receiving a world class product, in some respects superior to the main roster, with a bevy of potential dream matches few would have thought possible but a year ago. However, in the long term, the NXT model of signing indie talent at a rate never before seen, and running NXT shows in direct opposition to the de facto number two promotion in the United States, Ring of Honor, is an unsustainable one – one wholly unhealthy for the wrestling business.
Triple with the NXT Championship.

Triple with the NXT Championship.

NXT is by no means the first of WWE’s developmental extensions to sign indie talent, as the likes of Jon Moxley (Dean Ambrose), Claudio Castagnoli (Cesaro), and Tyler Black (Seth Rollins) worked their way through NXT’s predecessor, FCW – as did Bryan Danielson (Daniel Bryan). However, these signings were opportunistic in nature, with the majority of company investment going not into refining indie stars, but for better or worse moulding from scratch prospects from outside of wrestling (for better most certainly in the case of OVW generations prior to Punk, with the likes of John Cena, Randy Orton, Brock Lesnar, and Batista all graduating within a few years of one another). In contrast, the current rate of indie signings is more akin to Vince McMahon Jr.’s talent raids of the 1980s. NJPW’s loss of two of its biggest stars within the span of a year, and a similar situation for CMLL, coupled with the high frequency at which NXT runs opposite Ring of Honor stand as a testament to the validity of the need for concern. (*)



By all accounts, the Samoa Joe and Austin Aries of the world, who have been liberated from their years long TNA limbo, may very well be NXT exclusive performers, which is a blessing for younger roster members. However, it would seem that the current faces of NXT, Finn Balor and Bayley, are likely to remain in NXT for at least the next few months, this is despite their months long preparedness for a long stale main roster. These tactics have their respective positives and negatives, but are not the actions of a traditional developmental extension.



Developmental brands don’t tour the country in opposition to Ring of Honor shows, run internationally, or retain main event calibre talent primed for the main roster for extended periods of time unduly – the latter in particular defeats the objective of a developmental territory to begin with. It is in this way that NXT is not a true developmental system, but a third, Network exclusive touring brand, run by the next in line to the McMahon throne.



Whilst both the independents and NXT are seemingly flourishing, it takes years for a Biff Busick to ascend to the level of an “indie star”, where they can work less experienced talent and aid in the creation of new names recognised on a national and international level. In the mid-to-late 2000s Ring of Honor experienced the adverse effects of having Punk, Joe (TNA), Danielson, and McGuinness (TNA) signed away, dropping significantly in popularity and losing much of their cult momentum, which they have only begun to regain in recent years. Those signings were largely independent of one another, and it is doubtful that Ring of Honor in the mid-2000s was targeted by WWE as competition, unlike the 2016 case, where Hunter and NXT may very well be out for blood.



What this process amounts to is tantamount to the “over-fishing” of the independents – signings that reap great rewards in the short term, but that will, given time, deplete what has been the company’s most successful source of new talent for the better part of five years in the American indies. Of course, the notion that it takes in excess of five years to make a star is preposterous, but very few independent talents break out on a national level before surpassing that milestone, and worryingly, if the Biff Busicks, PACs and Rich Swanns are signed away as they breakout, then there will be less marquee talent for those on the ascent to work, which will ultimately stunt talent growth, not only for the bigger non-WWE brands, but for WWE and the business as a whole.
NXT sold out the Barclay's Center for TakeOver Brookyln in August of 2015.

NXT sold out the Barclay’s Center for TakeOver Brookyln in August of 2015.

As damaging as these practises may be for the indies, the extraction of top New Japan talent – Styles, Anderson, Gallows, Nakamura, and now a rumoured freelance Ibushi – will have lasting consequences on New Japan – possibly dire should Kazuchika Okada be signed at some point. Precautions can and have been taken by three of the four major non-WWE/TNA outlets: ROH, New Japan and Lucha Underground – all implementing multi-year contracts either over the past few years, or in the case of Lucha Underground, from their inception. But, this is only a temporary barrier in most cases, and whilst there do exist performers like Kenny Omega, Michael Elgin, and The Young Bucks, who are seemingly content with the possibility of never working WWE, the goal for most is, and has been for the better part of two decades, to make it to the WWE. This is by no means a flaw in the thinking of talent, as the WWE, for all of their creative faults, offers not only some of the best pay and the biggest platform, but also safer working conditions, and downside guarantees, where contractual perks of this nature can rarely be implemented in other promotions.



On the other hand, however, there is only so much main roster space available, even with five hours of first run USA content per week. At the same time, however, there is only so much the company is willing to do with talent of a certain type. AJ Styles was pushed as “the hottest free agent in sports entertainment” upon his debut, a huge statement given the company’s reluctance to acknowledge the existence of products other than their own. Within weeks of receiving this moniker and garnering one of the biggest reactions in recent memory within the confines of WWE programming, AJ Styles was positioned as a mid-carder, albeit one on the upper end of the midcard spectrum. Whilst the majority of the roster is positioned in this mid-card malaise, the constant reiteration of Styles having yet proven himself in “the big leagues”, deeming him the “Red Neck Rookie”, and so on demonstrates that whilst the company is able to recognise world class talent and the benefits they can offer the roster, many times talent signings are more about the act itself, than what can be done with the performers in question. This mentality falls well in-line with the company’s aggressive history of talent acquisition – perhaps some talent is signed simply to deny other promotions access.



This mentality is a lasting relic from the Monday Night Wars in a sense, a time when signing talent to high-end contracts just to go unutilised was umpteen times more favourable than letting the competition get hold of them. And historically speaking, this strategy has been a cornerstone of WWE promotional practises, at least during the transitions to cable and pay-per-view, competition with WCW, and now the migration to the WWE Network. The company has demonstrated a strictly predatory mentality towards talent acquisition in recent history, and have only sought to reconstruct the present and past of wrestling in their image. To think that NXT will not be used as a weapon in this conquest, is to underestimate a mentality on which the very foundations of the modern company were built.
WWE made use of Jushin Thunder Liger when running opposite ROH in Brooklyn.

WWE made use of Jushin Thunder Liger when running opposite ROH in Brooklyn.

Perhaps this company trait was overestimated in the 2000s by fans on the internet, with terms such as “slave name” being thrown about during the signing and renaming of Bryan Danielson. Thankfully, it would seem that most have moved away from this thought process, and understand that on an individual level, WWE signings are often times wholly positive life events for performers who have devoted years of their life and sacrificed greatly for their craft. Attention must, however, be brought to the macro-processes at work – as whilst the company may exhibit much of the same competitiveness and hostility, the NXT encroachment on independent and international wrestling is nowhere near as blatant as the talent raids of the 1980s were. No, NXT’s cannibalisation of the alternative wrestling scene is one hidden behind an ingeniously constructed facade, with one of Triple H’s many faces at the forefront.



Top names from across the globe are being picked off at a rate wholly unsustainable, and with the indies as the company’s most successful talent source for years, this is far from a wise move on the company’s part. As if the systems that created the decades biggest fresh crop of stars collapse, it will have far reaching consequences, both on the smaller companies, and WWE itself.



So, in the future, when Paul Levesque’s NXT persona announces his next talent acquisition, don’t begrudge the signee of their potentially positive career decision, but think not only of the quality of the NXT product or what truly lies behind the understated grin of Triple H in the photo-op, but also the far-reaching ramifications that the company’s latest conquest will have on the industry.



(*) To name a few instances of NXT/ROH cross-over over the last six or so months – ROH 02/05 Nashville Tennessee v. NXT 02/05 Nashville Tennessee, ROH 01/16 Collinsville Illinois v. NXT 01/16 Chicago Illinois (EDIT: As a reader noted, Collinsville is in the Saint Louis metro area, 280 miles from Chicago, and so to say that there was crossover here was a stretch.) , ROH Final Battle 12/18 Philadelphia Pennsylvania v. NXT TakeOver London 12/16 London, ROH 12/05 Fort Lauderdale Florida v. NXT 12/05 Citrus Springs Florida, ROH 09/19 San Antonio Texas v. NXT 09/19 San Antonio Texas, ROH 09/18 San Antonio Texas v. NXT 09/18 Austin Texas, ROH 08/22 New York City New York v. NXT 08/22 New York City New York.

[Big Red Machine]

Two thoughts on this:

1. To say that ROH lost any momentum after the signings of Punk, Joe (and soon after the signing of Cabana and the loss of Daniels, Homicide, and Aries after the PPV announcement) or Nigel/Dragon is just plain not true.

2. Yes, there are guys who get taken, but there are enough guys who don’t get taken (Roddy, Quack, Wolves) or don’t work out (Sydal, Cabana, James Storm, JoMo) or are career TNA guys (Roode, Daniels) who who don’t want to go to WWE (Elgin, Young Bucks, Briscoes) who will be around to work with to develop new talent.

[Big Red Machine]

Here is a quick (unsourced) rebuttal that someone on ROHWorld said he/she found online:

Before NXT, WWE still took independent wrestlers. In fact, during the Attitude Era, both WCW and WWE were obsessively signing talent so that the competition couldn't have it. ECW, in fact, was basically serving the same purpose as NXT does today, just arguably more independently (although Vince was keeping ECW afloat with donations at the end): A small touring promotion that was more visible than most indies, had a PPV and TV deal, and was a stepping stone for WWE (and WCW).

People panicked when WWE and WCW signed away all the ECW talent that was worth a damn. I seem to recall a similar panic when TNA started signing ROH talent to exclusive contracts. The indies will survive. Not all of them, of course, because they never do, but as long as there are people inspired by the previous generation to get into wrestling without the "in" of family or someone to get them directly into WWE, there will be indies where the next big stars can be found.

[cero2k]

if the whole argument is that NXT is killing independent and international wrestling, then yeah, it's not true, it's dumb. Wrestling doesn't die, it may just lose quality, but it will still be there because people will still want to wrestle and want to join the big corporation.

Does it hurt promotions? yes, definitely. No matter what promotion you are, if your top guys are taken away from you, it will hurt, you will rebuild, but momentum can be lost. Not all promotions have good backups for losing their top guys. Surprisingly, AAA and NJPW are doing a better job at rebuilding than WWE did after they lost Rollins and Cena

However, while the indies will survive, that doesn't mean that all promotions will. That example with ECW during the attitude era, that really hurt ECW. Regardless of all the financial problems, chances of building a competitive promotion around Rhyno or Credible are slim.

[Big Red Machine]

if the whole argument is that NXT is killing independent and international wrestling, then yeah, it's not true, it's dumb. Wrestling doesn't die, it may just lose quality, but it will still be there because people will still want to wrestle and want to join the big corporation.

Does it hurt promotions? yes, definitely. No matter what promotion you are, if your top guys are taken away from you, it will hurt, you will rebuild, but momentum can be lost. Not all promotions have good backups for losing their top guys. Surprisingly, AAA and NJPW are doing a better job at rebuilding than WWE did after they lost Rollins and Cena

However, while the indies will survive, that doesn't mean that all promotions will. That example with ECW during the attitude era, that really hurt ECW. Regardless of all the financial problems, chances of building a competitive promotion around Rhyno or Credible are slim.

1. Don't disrespect Rhyno!

2. New Japan is doing a decent job. AAA is doing a good one. CMLL has not, and NOAH wouldn't be either if not for the help from New Japan. With ROH, it's arguable as to whether or not they deserve credit for their own "rebuilding." CZW has become completely marginalized from what it once was, even with the occasional ability to use TNA guys (and we can blame some of that on talent lost to ROH [i.e. Cole] and potential use of talent lost to ROH in addition to talent lost to WWE [Sami, Drake, Moxley, Biff], but the idea is still the same). Now that the ACH's and R.D. Evans' and the like have left Texas, we rarely here about the Texas indy scene anymore (although the North Carolina scene seems to have taken its place). Not all promotions are doing such a good job of rebuilding themselves.
To be fair, I think some of this has to do with other promotions (CZW, SHIMMER, FIP, and arguably EVOLVE to an extend) adopting the PWG "contentment" philosophy where they are happy with where they are, running one show a month (or whatever they happen to be running) and that's all they want, as opposed to what ROH or CHIKARA or TNA (or even CZW just a few years ago) are doing where they are actively trying to grow their product, but if you look at it in terms of really doing a good job of replacing talent, only PWG and Evolve are really doing that (and CHIKARA does it in their own way, but that way requires their talent to be green as goose poop, and we can certainly argue that fans have not taken to the newer CHIKARA guys and gals [aside from Kimberly, Mr. Touchdown, Jaka, and the Devastation Corporation] anywhere near the level they used to care about Claudio and Jigsaw and 3.0 and Shane Storm etc. etc.).

3. All of that being said, I do 100% agree with you that the indies will always rebuild themselves. History has proven that: The first wave of that "end of the territories/GWF/SMW/USWA "indy" stars like Cactus Jack and Waltman and Eddie Gilbert and Candido got signed so they were replaced by the Eddie/Dean/Benoit group and that group was replaced by the likes of RVD, Scorpio, the Dudleys, Lance Storm, and the Luchadors and a big push for Taz in ECW and by the Ace Darling/Devon Storm/Lance Diamond group and the Hardy Boys and York & Matthews on the indies, and and when those guys started to get signed by WWE and WCW (and in Diamonds' case, ECW), they were replaced by guys like Rhyno and Corino in ECW and the Ace Darling/Black T-Shirt Squad and Scoot Andrews in the east and mid-west and by Donovan Morgan and Mike Modest and Christopher Daniels on the west coast, and then when those guys got signed or went to Japan and ECW folded you started seeing the Joe/Punk/Dragon/London/Kendrick/Ki/Homicide/Hit Squad/AJ Styles/Colt Cabana (generally the early ROH crew) plus Shelley, Sabin, Sydal, and Hero in the east and midwest (and the CZW deathmatch crew) and the early PWG guys in the west (oh, and Teddy Hart)... and then when some of them started to get signed/made TNA exclusive they were replaced by guys like Tyler Black and Steen and Generico and pushes for Jimmy Jacobs and Nigel McGuinness (and a little later, Davey)... and then when guys like Dragon and Nigel and KoW and Moxley and Tyler started getting signed they were placed by first the guys we have now like Cole and O'Reilly and Elgin and the current PWG and Evolve crews, and now that guys like Swann and Gargano and Ciampa are getting signed, they'll be replaced by ACH and Cedric Alexander and Ricochet and the cycle will continue.

[cero2k]

2. New Japan is doing a decent job. AAA is doing a good one. CMLL has not, and NOAH wouldn't be either if not for the help from New Japan. With ROH, it's arguable as to whether or not they deserve credit for their own "rebuilding." CZW has become completely marginalized from what it once was, even with the occasional ability to use TNA guys (and we can blame some of that on talent lost to ROH [i.e. Cole] and potential use of talent lost to ROH in addition to talent lost to WWE [Sami, Drake, Moxley, Biff], but the idea is still the same). Now that the ACH's and R.D. Evans' and the like have left Texas, we rarely here about the Texas indy scene anymore (although the North Carolina scene seems to have taken its place). Not all promotions are doing such a good job of rebuilding themselves.
To be fair, I think some of this has to do with other promotions (CZW, SHIMMER, FIP, and arguably EVOLVE to an extend) adopting the PWG "contentment" philosophy where they are happy with where they are, running one show a month (or whatever they happen to be running) and that's all they want, as opposed to what ROH or CHIKARA or TNA (or even CZW just a few years ago) are doing where they are actively trying to grow their product, but if you look at it in terms of really doing a good job of replacing talent, only PWG and Evolve are really doing that (and CHIKARA does it in their own way, but that way requires their talent to be green as goose poop, and we can certainly argue that fans have not taken to the newer CHIKARA guys and gals [aside from Kimberly, Mr. Touchdown, Jaka, and the Devastation Corporation] anywhere near the level they used to care about Claudio and Jigsaw and 3.0 and Shane Storm etc. etc.).

3. All of that being said, I do 100% agree with you that the indies will always rebuild themselves. History has proven that: The first wave of that "end of the territories/GWF/SMW/USWA "indy" stars like Cactus Jack and Waltman and Eddie Gilbert and Candido got signed so they were replaced by the Eddie/Dean/Benoit group and that group was replaced by the likes of RVD, Scorpio, the Dudleys, Lance Storm, and the Luchadors and a big push for Taz in ECW and by the Ace Darling/Devon Storm/Lance Diamond group and the Hardy Boys and York & Matthews on the indies, and and when those guys started to get signed by WWE and WCW (and in Diamonds' case, ECW), they were replaced by guys like Rhyno and Corino in ECW and the Ace Darling/Black T-Shirt Squad and Scoot Andrews in the east and mid-west and by Donovan Morgan and Mike Modest and Christopher Daniels on the west coast, and then when those guys got signed or went to Japan and ECW folded you started seeing the Joe/Punk/Dragon/London/Kendrick/Ki/Homicide/Hit Squad/AJ Styles/Colt Cabana (generally the early ROH crew) plus Shelley, Sabin, Sydal, and Hero in the east and midwest (and the CZW deathmatch crew) and the early PWG guys in the west (oh, and Teddy Hart)... and then when some of them started to get signed/made TNA exclusive they were replaced by guys like Tyler Black and Steen and Generico and pushes for Jimmy Jacobs and Nigel McGuinness (and a little later, Davey)... and then when guys like Dragon and Nigel and KoW and Moxley and Tyler started getting signed they were placed by first the guys we have now like Cole and O'Reilly and Elgin and the current PWG and Evolve crews, and now that guys like Swann and Gargano and Ciampa are getting signed, they'll be replaced by ACH and Cedric Alexander and Ricochet and the cycle will continue.

2. NJPW was lucky that they actually kept their two aces and that while not on the top, guys like Shibata, Naito, and Omega were not in the gutter. AAA has taken a lot of time, but considering they lost their 4 top guys and a bunch of americans, they're doing good, again, they're lucky that they have a lot of fan favorites in the midcard (Psycho clown, Texano, Pentagon, Mesias, etc) that they were able to just bring them back to the main event, that plus Lucha Underground has helped.

CMLL i won't even count because they only lost 1 man, granted it was a huge guy, but they had already secured Caristico before Sombra left, they had RUSH who was already at the level of Sombra, and now Mascara Dorada is back. Having said that, CMLL is still doing a terrible job in booking terms IMO, they're the TNA of Mexico, great roster, but nothing matters sometimes. Their world title has been a joke for years, the equivalent of Grado has been the champ for almost a year.

I don't think it's necessarily the 'idea of growing', because PWG or EVOLVE have definitely grown, just differently from guys like ROH. What i see is there is a willingness from these promotions to bring in top talent from around the world, PWG and EVOLVE are perfectly ok with using talent that works other places; meanwhile, ROH or CHIKARA are (1) 100% faithful to their Dojo and building their own guys, and (2) more on the ROH/TNA side, but working the exclusivity way since their TV exposure means that they need to protect their guys both kayfabe and health wise.

CZW is a whole different story, they just had bad luck. Fans don't watch because most connect CZW to deathmatches, their dojo system is not the best, and their best guys usually leave for other promotions (Cole to ROH, Gulak for CHIKARA/EVOLVE, etc)

3. Exactly, the only reason we can still quote the WWF/AWA situation was because Vicne straight up signed from Hogan to the jobbers. Now, not saying that this couldn't happen today, there was that interview with Chris DeJoseph (in which I was part of **pads himself in the back**) where Chris said that WWE tried to signed the whole roster and that they have tried that with other promotions before.

[Big Red Machine]

2. New Japan is doing a decent job. AAA is doing a good one. CMLL has not, and NOAH wouldn't be either if not for the help from New Japan. With ROH, it's arguable as to whether or not they deserve credit for their own "rebuilding." CZW has become completely marginalized from what it once was, even with the occasional ability to use TNA guys (and we can blame some of that on talent lost to ROH [i.e. Cole] and potential use of talent lost to ROH in addition to talent lost to WWE [Sami, Drake, Moxley, Biff], but the idea is still the same). Now that the ACH's and R.D. Evans' and the like have left Texas, we rarely here about the Texas indy scene anymore (although the North Carolina scene seems to have taken its place). Not all promotions are doing such a good job of rebuilding themselves.
To be fair, I think some of this has to do with other promotions (CZW, SHIMMER, FIP, and arguably EVOLVE to an extend) adopting the PWG "contentment" philosophy where they are happy with where they are, running one show a month (or whatever they happen to be running) and that's all they want, as opposed to what ROH or CHIKARA or TNA (or even CZW just a few years ago) are doing where they are actively trying to grow their product, but if you look at it in terms of really doing a good job of replacing talent, only PWG and Evolve are really doing that (and CHIKARA does it in their own way, but that way requires their talent to be green as goose poop, and we can certainly argue that fans have not taken to the newer CHIKARA guys and gals [aside from Kimberly, Mr. Touchdown, Jaka, and the Devastation Corporation] anywhere near the level they used to care about Claudio and Jigsaw and 3.0 and Shane Storm etc. etc.).

3. All of that being said, I do 100% agree with you that the indies will always rebuild themselves. History has proven that: The first wave of that "end of the territories/GWF/SMW/USWA "indy" stars like Cactus Jack and Waltman and Eddie Gilbert and Candido got signed so they were replaced by the Eddie/Dean/Benoit group and that group was replaced by the likes of RVD, Scorpio, the Dudleys, Lance Storm, and the Luchadors and a big push for Taz in ECW and by the Ace Darling/Devon Storm/Lance Diamond group and the Hardy Boys and York & Matthews on the indies, and and when those guys started to get signed by WWE and WCW (and in Diamonds' case, ECW), they were replaced by guys like Rhyno and Corino in ECW and the Ace Darling/Black T-Shirt Squad and Scoot Andrews in the east and mid-west and by Donovan Morgan and Mike Modest and Christopher Daniels on the west coast, and then when those guys got signed or went to Japan and ECW folded you started seeing the Joe/Punk/Dragon/London/Kendrick/Ki/Homicide/Hit Squad/AJ Styles/Colt Cabana (generally the early ROH crew) plus Shelley, Sabin, Sydal, and Hero in the east and midwest (and the CZW deathmatch crew) and the early PWG guys in the west (oh, and Teddy Hart)... and then when some of them started to get signed/made TNA exclusive they were replaced by guys like Tyler Black and Steen and Generico and pushes for Jimmy Jacobs and Nigel McGuinness (and a little later, Davey)... and then when guys like Dragon and Nigel and KoW and Moxley and Tyler started getting signed they were placed by first the guys we have now like Cole and O'Reilly and Elgin and the current PWG and Evolve crews, and now that guys like Swann and Gargano and Ciampa are getting signed, they'll be replaced by ACH and Cedric Alexander and Ricochet and the cycle will continue.

2. NJPW was lucky that they actually kept their two aces and that while not on the top, guys like Shibata, Naito, and Omega were not in the gutter. AAA has taken a lot of time, but considering they lost their 4 top guys and a bunch of americans, they're doing good, again, they're lucky that they have a lot of fan favorites in the midcard (Psycho clown, Texano, Pentagon, Mesias, etc) that they were able to just bring them back to the main event, that plus Lucha Underground has helped.

CMLL i won't even count because they only lost 1 man, granted it was a huge guy, but they had already secured Caristico before Sombra left, they had RUSH who was already at the level of Sombra, and now Mascara Dorada is back. Having said that, CMLL is still doing a terrible job in booking terms IMO, they're the TNA of Mexico, great roster, but nothing matters sometimes. Their world title has been a joke for years, the equivalent of Grado has been the champ for almost a year.

I don't think it's necessarily the 'idea of growing', because PWG or EVOLVE have definitely grown, just differently from guys like ROH. What i see is there is a willingness from these promotions to bring in top talent from around the world, PWG and EVOLVE are perfectly ok with using talent that works other places; meanwhile, ROH or CHIKARA are (1) 100% faithful to their Dojo and building their own guys, and (2) more on the ROH/TNA side, but working the exclusivity way since their TV exposure means that they need to protect their guys both kayfabe and health wise.

CZW is a whole different story, they just had bad luck. Fans don't watch because most connect CZW to deathmatches, their dojo system is not the best, and their best guys usually leave for other promotions (Cole to ROH, Gulak for CHIKARA/EVOLVE, etc)

3. Exactly, the only reason we can still quote the WWF/AWA situation was because Vicne straight up signed from Hogan to the jobbers. Now, not saying that this couldn't happen today, there was that interview with Chris DeJoseph (in which I was part of **pads himself in the back**) where Chris said that WWE tried to signed the whole roster and that they have tried that with other promotions before.

2. With NJPW that's not luck. That's just good booking. If Karl Anderson hadn't left, we'd be talking about them having him in that position, too.

With AAA, I think LU has helped their perception abroad more than it has in Mexico.
The important point is not just that they had a lot of fan favorites in the midcard, but that they were willing to actually give them real chances. Compare that to the long list of guys who WWE either gave up on too quickly (Wade, Rusev, Ziggler), killed by mishandling their push to the top (Ryback, Owens, Swagger, and arguably Sheamus and Del Rio), killed right from the beginning (Neville), or completely squandered when they've had something going (Cody, C esaro, Sandow TWICE) or who get over huge but WWE won't let them be at the level they should be because ROMAN REIGNS MUST BE THE GUY (Dean, almost Bryan, and within five years I'm certain will be adding Zayn and Balor to that list). WWE could have been doing the same thing as AAA but whereas AAA went with the crowd, WWE is fighting against the crowd.

My point with CMLL is more that they are in a place where they need to rebuild (more because of age than anything else) but haven't been doing so.

PWG hasn't "grown" nearly as much as they could. They could be running at least monthly or even touring occasionally by running the same size venues they do in Reseda in other places. They are hot enough to do that and have been since mid-2011 or so. But they have chosen not to because they are happy with what they have. The only thing they have done that even resembles “growth” is do a VOD deal with Highspots, but even that was something that required almost zero additional effort. And that is simply because they are happy with what they have right now.

EVOLVE’S “growth” has been extremely slow. They have been doing about the same number of people and running the same three or four venues in the same two states (NY and FL) and only gradually increasing the number of shows per year for like two years now (and you could even argue that the larger number of shows this year was because DGUSA folded [oh. Sorry Gabe. I mean it “went on hiatus”]). And if you’ve heard Gabe’s interviews about what his relationship with Cary was like, this makes perfect sense, as Gabe said that Cary was always the one really pushing him to expand to new markets, and ROH would have even tried to promote a show on their own in Chicago if Cary hadn’t come along. Even for their first shows in areas (relatively) close to Philly like Glen Burnie, MD or Dayton they relied heavily on logistical support from other companies (or recently deceased ones in the case of MCW). So this snail’s pace “growth” (if you can call it that) pattern EVOLVE is in makes perfect sense when you realize that it is Gabe in charge of his own company with Sal handling the video aspects of things, just like when it was Gabe and the RF crew in the early days of ROH.
Yes. PWG and EVOLVE (and others, too) have become more willing to bring in top foreign talent, but (especially in PWG’s case) this is because of that “contentment” business philosophy. There are very, very, very few unknowns for PWG in terms of finance. They know exactly how many tickets they will sell and for what price. They know exactly how much the building will cost and how much each talent will get paid and how much their transportation will cost. They probably even have a good idea of exactly how much they will get from DVD/VOD sales (they certainly have a minimum they can be certain they will meet even if the show merely gets average or even mildly bad reviews). Because of this, they know exactly how much money they have to spend on talent, and because of what I’m certain are low building costs (it’s not like they are running an actual arena like ROH or TNA do because ROH and TNA are trying to look big league), they can put pretty much every penny they want to into bringing in talent.
ROH, on the other hand, is trying to grow and make money. That means new markets, and new markets mean that they have no idea how many tickets they will sell. This means that they want to keep costs down without sacrificing too much in the ring so that they can still put on a good show, but it won’t hurt as badly if it bombs financially (like last year’s Amarillo show, for instance), and so that financially successful shows will allow them even more money to use to either venture to new markets or attempt to keep talent away from WWE/TNA/LU/Gabe. Using regional guys who they don’t have to pay to fly in, or guys from their dojo also keeps costs down because these guys are working for less in exchange for the exposure that comes with having worked for a bigger audience and with higher potential DVD/VOD sales then their local indies.
Also, ROH (and TNA), being owned by a large parent corporation, want to do their best to avoid doing things that are technically illegal due to work visa issues, so as not to anger the parent corporation. If ROH is going to bring someone in, they are going to make sure that all of the proper legal ducks are in a row before doing so, and that takes time and money.
CZW did have some bad luck (Nick Gage), but they’ve also seen a lot of their bigger non-deathmatch names get pulled away to work for ROH (Cole, Lio Rush), WWE (Drake, Sami, Biff, Moxley) or for various other indies that can offer something more like the WWN promotions (more exposure, better creative) or PWG (more freedom, having their name attached to a hot product) so even if there is nothing in their contracts prohibiting them from working CZW, guys like Sami and Biff and Gulak and Team Tremendous and Chris Dickinson and Caleb Konley just plain might not be available the weekend CZW is running if they are also being booked by PWG one weekend a month and Gabe one weekend a month and somewhere else another weekend.
Yes, people have stopped being interested in deathmatches, but CZW also has guys like AR Fox and BLK Jeez, and Ruckus, and Joey Janella and that guy Davey Richards came in to wrestle who are good wrestlers who aren’t deathmatch guys (even Masada is a passable regular wrestler) who they could be building around (and in the case of Janella and Jeez, they are).

3. LOL. In my other post I got so caught up with categorizing the various generations of indy stars that I totally forgot the point I wanted to get to which is that while indy wrestling will always thrive on (just like with individual wrestlers, if one promotion dies or falters, another will always spring up to replace it: CZW sprang up to replace ECW in the area when ECW went national, Jersey All-Pro did the same as well as fill NWA New Jersey’s void, and ROH replaced the parts of ECW that they had left behind, TNA replaced WCW, PWG replaced Revolution Pro, etc. etc)… but: there is absolutely no possible way to interpret WWE’s attempts to run shows opposing ROH as anything other than a hostile move. There just isn’t, and that is the sort of thing that, if done aggressively with multiple targets, could do a lot of damage to promotions like ROH or AIW or PWX or CHIKARA, which would be to the ultimate detriment of the business because while there will always be wrestlers, only promotions that are actively trying to grow are willing to risk doing big or different things, and those are the types of things that change the business.

[cero2k]

PWG hasn't "grown" nearly as much as they could. They could be running at least monthly or even touring occasionally by running the same size venues they do in Reseda in other places. They are hot enough to do that and have been since mid-2011 or so. But they have chosen not to because they are happy with what they have. The only thing they have done that even resembles “growth” is do a VOD deal with Highspots, but even that was something that required almost zero additional effort. And that is simply because they are happy with what they have right now.
The day PWG leaves the Reseda area, and the Legion Hall, that day PWG starts to die, growth for them is not touring or changing venues, their growth is in been able to book UK guys every show now and not rely on PPRay or RockNES Monsters and other locals for their shows. Growth for them is that now they're selling their tickets for $50 bucks and still sell out, and now they're doing Blu-Rays. They are running monthly, they had just taken the post-BOLA time off like always, but so far they have 4 shows in the can this year.

Yes. PWG and EVOLVE (and others, too) have become more willing to bring in top foreign talent, but (especially in PWG’s case) this is because of that “contentment” business philosophy. There are very, very, very few unknowns for PWG in terms of finance. They know exactly how many tickets they will sell and for what price. They know exactly how much the building will cost and how much each talent will get paid and how much their transportation will cost. They probably even have a good idea of exactly how much they will get from DVD/VOD sales (they certainly have a minimum they can be certain they will meet even if the show merely gets average or even mildly bad reviews). Because of this, they know exactly how much money they have to spend on talent, and because of what I’m certain are low building costs (it’s not like they are running an actual arena like ROH or TNA do because ROH and TNA are trying to look big league), they can put pretty much every penny they want to into bringing in talent.
ROH, on the other hand, is trying to grow and make money. That means new markets, and new markets mean that they have no idea how many tickets they will sell. This means that they want to keep costs down without sacrificing too much in the ring so that they can still put on a good show, but it won’t hurt as badly if it bombs financially (like last year’s Amarillo show, for instance), and so that financially successful shows will allow them even more money to use to either venture to new markets or attempt to keep talent away from WWE/TNA/LU/Gabe. Using regional guys who they don’t have to pay to fly in, or guys from their dojo also keeps costs down because these guys are working for less in exchange for the exposure that comes with having worked for a bigger audience and with higher potential DVD/VOD sales then their local indies.
Also, ROH (and TNA), being owned by a large parent corporation, want to do their best to avoid doing things that are technically illegal due to work visa issues, so as not to anger the parent corporation. If ROH is going to bring someone in, they are going to make sure that all of the proper legal ducks are in a row before doing so, and that takes time and money.
Those are perfect reasons, i just notice an unwillingness from ROH to bring in the buzz wrestlers as they once did, older ROH would have made an effort to secure someone like Sabre Jr or Ospreay in their ranks, I want to believe they used to have a better eye for that, aside from Dalton Castle, all their 'new' acquisitions have been alumni or NJPW connections, even TNA saw more value in Trevor Lee who I honestly believe i better suited for ROH than TNA. I understand back in the day not wanting to fly in someone like The Bucks from California, but surely that time has passed


Yes, people have stopped being interested in deathmatches, but CZW also has guys like AR Fox and BLK Jeez, and Ruckus, and Joey Janella and that guy Davey Richards came in to wrestle who are good wrestlers who aren’t deathmatch guys (even Masada is a passable regular wrestler) who they could be building around (and in the case of Janella and Jeez, they are).
but see, we know that because we're wrestling fans and follow as much as we can, but that is not bringing in new fans as PWG has because of the reviews, or EVOLVE has because of the NXT connection. no one talks about CZW and if they do, it's because deathmatches, that is what is hurting them the most. They have a stigma that they can't shake off, just like TNA has the LOLTNA stigma now, yet they've been getting better in the last two months.

[Big Red Machine]

PWG hasn't "grown" nearly as much as they could. They could be running at least monthly or even touring occasionally by running the same size venues they do in Reseda in other places. They are hot enough to do that and have been since mid-2011 or so. But they have chosen not to because they are happy with what they have. The only thing they have done that even resembles “growth” is do a VOD deal with Highspots, but even that was something that required almost zero additional effort. And that is simply because they are happy with what they have right now.
The day PWG leaves the Reseda area, and the Legion Hall, that day PWG starts to die, growth for them is not touring or changing venues, their growth is in been able to book UK guys every show now and not rely on PPRay or RockNES Monsters and other locals for their shows. Growth for them is that now they're selling their tickets for $50 bucks and still sell out, and now they're doing Blu-Rays. They are running monthly, they had just taken the post-BOLA time off like always, but so far they have 4 shows in the can this year.
I 100% agree with you that the moment PWG leaves Reseda it will severely damage the promotion (although I think they could try booking a spot-show somewhere else in SoCal every six months or so in addition the monthly Reseda show without hurting themselves) but... I don't define the ability to fly in international guys as growth. There was nothing wrong with PPRay or the RockNES Monsters. They were over and they were fine workers. It's not like they are now able to fly in Zack Sabre Jr. and thus don't have to rely on spot monkeys like the Jersey All-Pro/Special K guys. They are just paying more money to bring in a better worker.
What they are not doing is creating any NEW buzz or momentum. They are not reaching any new fans than they were three or four years ago. They have certainly maintained their buzz, which was at a very high level, but they're not doing anything to grow their business. Literally any other promotion in history in PWG's position would have at least tried to find a slightly bigger venue in the same area of town to try to sell more tickets by now.
And they're not running monthly. They've run ten shows a year for the last five years (sometimes fewer), and they are actually running fewer shows than they were back in the late 2000s but a decent amount. That "post-BOLA time off" was a quarter of the year.
I also don't consider the switch from DVD to Blu-Ray to be anything helpful because they (and when I say "they" I'm talking about both PWG and EVOLVE here) don't put anything on the Blu-Rays that they weren't already putting on the DVD. It just makes it cost more.

Yes. PWG and EVOLVE (and others, too) have become more willing to bring in top foreign talent, but (especially in PWG’s case) this is because of that “contentment” business philosophy. There are very, very, very few unknowns for PWG in terms of finance. They know exactly how many tickets they will sell and for what price. They know exactly how much the building will cost and how much each talent will get paid and how much their transportation will cost. They probably even have a good idea of exactly how much they will get from DVD/VOD sales (they certainly have a minimum they can be certain they will meet even if the show merely gets average or even mildly bad reviews). Because of this, they know exactly how much money they have to spend on talent, and because of what I’m certain are low building costs (it’s not like they are running an actual arena like ROH or TNA do because ROH and TNA are trying to look big league), they can put pretty much every penny they want to into bringing in talent.
ROH, on the other hand, is trying to grow and make money. That means new markets, and new markets mean that they have no idea how many tickets they will sell. This means that they want to keep costs down without sacrificing too much in the ring so that they can still put on a good show, but it won’t hurt as badly if it bombs financially (like last year’s Amarillo show, for instance), and so that financially successful shows will allow them even more money to use to either venture to new markets or attempt to keep talent away from WWE/TNA/LU/Gabe. Using regional guys who they don’t have to pay to fly in, or guys from their dojo also keeps costs down because these guys are working for less in exchange for the exposure that comes with having worked for a bigger audience and with higher potential DVD/VOD sales then their local indies.
Also, ROH (and TNA), being owned by a large parent corporation, want to do their best to avoid doing things that are technically illegal due to work visa issues, so as not to anger the parent corporation. If ROH is going to bring someone in, they are going to make sure that all of the proper legal ducks are in a row before doing so, and that takes time and money.
Those are perfect reasons, i just notice an unwillingness from ROH to bring in the buzz wrestlers as they once did, older ROH would have made an effort to secure someone like Sabre Jr or Ospreay in their ranks, I want to believe they used to have a better eye for that, aside from Dalton Castle, all their 'new' acquisitions have been alumni or NJPW connections, even TNA saw more value in Trevor Lee who I honestly believe i better suited for ROH than TNA. I understand back in the day not wanting to fly in someone like The Bucks from California, but surely that time has passed
I completely agree that ROH has done a terrible of finding new, young, talent with buzz over the past few years (Lio Rush is the first guy I can think of who ROH went out and got because he had buzz. Cedric was already working for ROH when he started to get his buzz in mid 2012. That is something ROH needs to do a MUCH better job at.
But not wanting to bring in guys who they'd have to pay for international flights for and work out visa issues with is perfectly understand in their (and TNA's) position. Now that Sabre is US-based, I'd think ROH would be going after him (but there might be WWN/WWE issues there). From what I remember someone saying (I'm pretty sure it was either Koff or Cornette) that visas are easier to get in Canada (which is why they only brought Ishimori to Toronto, and in the early days of the New Japan deal, the only guys they would use in the US were guy who were American citizens like Anderson and Forever Hooligans), so it'd be nice to see ROH give him a shot there... but that would entail ROH running in Canada for more than just a New Japan show every year (which they should be doing).
The lack of new buzz-worthy talent is a problem that can (and should) be able to be fixed without relying on flying guys in from Britain or Japan. There is plenty of great talent in the US that ROH could easily be using right now but they aren't.

Yes, people have stopped being interested in deathmatches, but CZW also has guys like AR Fox and BLK Jeez, and Ruckus, and Joey Janella and that guy Davey Richards came in to wrestle who are good wrestlers who aren’t deathmatch guys (even Masada is a passable regular wrestler) who they could be building around (and in the case of Janella and Jeez, they are).
but see, we know that because we're wrestling fans and follow as much as we can, but that is not bringing in new fans as PWG has because of the reviews, or EVOLVE has because of the NXT connection. no one talks about CZW and if they do, it's because deathmatches, that is what is hurting them the most. They have a stigma that they can't shake off, just like TNA has the LOLTNA stigma now, yet they've been getting better in the last two months.
They do kind of have that stigma, but it's weird because just a few years ago they seemed to have lost it.

[cero2k]

PWG hasn't "grown" nearly as much as they could. They could be running at least monthly or even touring occasionally by running the same size venues they do in Reseda in other places. They are hot enough to do that and have been since mid-2011 or so. But they have chosen not to because they are happy with what they have. The only thing they have done that even resembles “growth” is do a VOD deal with Highspots, but even that was something that required almost zero additional effort. And that is simply because they are happy with what they have right now.
The day PWG leaves the Reseda area, and the Legion Hall, that day PWG starts to die, growth for them is not touring or changing venues, their growth is in been able to book UK guys every show now and not rely on PPRay or RockNES Monsters and other locals for their shows. Growth for them is that now they're selling their tickets for $50 bucks and still sell out, and now they're doing Blu-Rays. They are running monthly, they had just taken the post-BOLA time off like always, but so far they have 4 shows in the can this year.
I 100% agree with you that the moment PWG leaves Reseda it will severely damage the promotion (although I think they could try booking a spot-show somewhere else in SoCal every six months or so in addition the monthly Reseda show without hurting themselves) but... I don't define the ability to fly in international guys as growth. There was nothing wrong with PPRay or the RockNES Monsters. They were over and they were fine workers. It's not like they are now able to fly in Zack Sabre Jr. and thus don't have to rely on spot monkeys like the Jersey All-Pro/Special K guys. They are just paying more money to bring in a better worker.
What they are not doing is creating any NEW buzz or momentum. They are not reaching any new fans than they were three or four years ago. They have certainly maintained their buzz, which was at a very high level, but they're not doing anything to grow their business. Literally any other promotion in history in PWG's position would have at least tried to find a slightly bigger venue in the same area of town to try to sell more tickets by now.
And they're not running monthly. They've run ten shows a year for the last five years (sometimes fewer), and they are actually running fewer shows than they were back in the late 2000s but a decent amount. That "post-BOLA time off" was a quarter of the year.
I also don't consider the switch from DVD to Blu-Ray to be anything helpful because they (and when I say "they" I'm talking about both PWG and EVOLVE here) don't put anything on the Blu-Rays that they weren't already putting on the DVD. It just makes it cost more.
not saying that PPray and RockNES were bad, but they're also not bringing people in, no one flies from the other side of the country to watch a PPray match, hell, no one drives from around the area for a PPray match, but you bring in Sabre Jr, or Pentagon, and you will bring people in, you'll make some buzz. For all we know their growth could be about saving money for those big weekends they have. True, literally any other promotion would have tried to move to a bigger place, but PWG understands it perfectly like we said, the day the move, the lose a lot of their atmosphere, if not all. Watch the KurtRusselmania shows, even if it's a PWG product, they suck balls atmosphere wise.
The Blu-Ray is just a small expansion, lot of people don't have DVD players anymore, but they may have PS3/4. It's not a switch, just trying to cover more ground.

Yes. PWG and EVOLVE (and others, too) have become more willing to bring in top foreign talent, but (especially in PWG’s case) this is because of that “contentment” business philosophy. There are very, very, very few unknowns for PWG in terms of finance. They know exactly how many tickets they will sell and for what price. They know exactly how much the building will cost and how much each talent will get paid and how much their transportation will cost. They probably even have a good idea of exactly how much they will get from DVD/VOD sales (they certainly have a minimum they can be certain they will meet even if the show merely gets average or even mildly bad reviews). Because of this, they know exactly how much money they have to spend on talent, and because of what I’m certain are low building costs (it’s not like they are running an actual arena like ROH or TNA do because ROH and TNA are trying to look big league), they can put pretty much every penny they want to into bringing in talent.
ROH, on the other hand, is trying to grow and make money. That means new markets, and new markets mean that they have no idea how many tickets they will sell. This means that they want to keep costs down without sacrificing too much in the ring so that they can still put on a good show, but it won’t hurt as badly if it bombs financially (like last year’s Amarillo show, for instance), and so that financially successful shows will allow them even more money to use to either venture to new markets or attempt to keep talent away from WWE/TNA/LU/Gabe. Using regional guys who they don’t have to pay to fly in, or guys from their dojo also keeps costs down because these guys are working for less in exchange for the exposure that comes with having worked for a bigger audience and with higher potential DVD/VOD sales then their local indies.
Also, ROH (and TNA), being owned by a large parent corporation, want to do their best to avoid doing things that are technically illegal due to work visa issues, so as not to anger the parent corporation. If ROH is going to bring someone in, they are going to make sure that all of the proper legal ducks are in a row before doing so, and that takes time and money.
Those are perfect reasons, i just notice an unwillingness from ROH to bring in the buzz wrestlers as they once did, older ROH would have made an effort to secure someone like Sabre Jr or Ospreay in their ranks, I want to believe they used to have a better eye for that, aside from Dalton Castle, all their 'new' acquisitions have been alumni or NJPW connections, even TNA saw more value in Trevor Lee who I honestly believe i better suited for ROH than TNA. I understand back in the day not wanting to fly in someone like The Bucks from California, but surely that time has passed
I completely agree that ROH has done a terrible of finding new, young, talent with buzz over the past few years (Lio Rush is the first guy I can think of who ROH went out and got because he had buzz. Cedric was already working for ROH when he started to get his buzz in mid 2012. That is something ROH needs to do a MUCH better job at.
But not wanting to bring in guys who they'd have to pay for international flights for and work out visa issues with is perfectly understand in their (and TNA's) position. Now that Sabre is US-based, I'd think ROH would be going after him (but there might be WWN/WWE issues there). From what I remember someone saying (I'm pretty sure it was either Koff or Cornette) that visas are easier to get in Canada (which is why they only brought Ishimori to Toronto, and in the early days of the New Japan deal, the only guys they would use in the US were guy who were American citizens like Anderson and Forever Hooligans), so it'd be nice to see ROH give him a shot there... but that would entail ROH running in Canada for more than just a New Japan show every year (which they should be doing).
The lack of new buzz-worthy talent is a problem that can (and should) be able to be fixed without relying on flying guys in from Britain or Japan. There is plenty of great talent in the US that ROH could easily be using right now but they aren't.
Understandable to want to avoid someone who is UK based, but I also think that Sabre is someone worth trying to buy out and make him come to the US. But yeah, not sure why ROH would rather have Diesel, Dijak, or Gresham and not push for someone like Gulak, or Thatcher. Nana right now should sacrifice his embassy of geeks and just have Thatcher instead

[Big Red Machine]

PWG hasn't "grown" nearly as much as they could. They could be running at least monthly or even touring occasionally by running the same size venues they do in Reseda in other places. They are hot enough to do that and have been since mid-2011 or so. But they have chosen not to because they are happy with what they have. The only thing they have done that even resembles “growth” is do a VOD deal with Highspots, but even that was something that required almost zero additional effort. And that is simply because they are happy with what they have right now.
The day PWG leaves the Reseda area, and the Legion Hall, that day PWG starts to die, growth for them is not touring or changing venues, their growth is in been able to book UK guys every show now and not rely on PPRay or RockNES Monsters and other locals for their shows. Growth for them is that now they're selling their tickets for $50 bucks and still sell out, and now they're doing Blu-Rays. They are running monthly, they had just taken the post-BOLA time off like always, but so far they have 4 shows in the can this year.
I 100% agree with you that the moment PWG leaves Reseda it will severely damage the promotion (although I think they could try booking a spot-show somewhere else in SoCal every six months or so in addition the monthly Reseda show without hurting themselves) but... I don't define the ability to fly in international guys as growth. There was nothing wrong with PPRay or the RockNES Monsters. They were over and they were fine workers. It's not like they are now able to fly in Zack Sabre Jr. and thus don't have to rely on spot monkeys like the Jersey All-Pro/Special K guys. They are just paying more money to bring in a better worker.
What they are not doing is creating any NEW buzz or momentum. They are not reaching any new fans than they were three or four years ago. They have certainly maintained their buzz, which was at a very high level, but they're not doing anything to grow their business. Literally any other promotion in history in PWG's position would have at least tried to find a slightly bigger venue in the same area of town to try to sell more tickets by now.
And they're not running monthly. They've run ten shows a year for the last five years (sometimes fewer), and they are actually running fewer shows than they were back in the late 2000s but a decent amount. That "post-BOLA time off" was a quarter of the year.
I also don't consider the switch from DVD to Blu-Ray to be anything helpful because they (and when I say "they" I'm talking about both PWG and EVOLVE here) don't put anything on the Blu-Rays that they weren't already putting on the DVD. It just makes it cost more.
not saying that PPray and RockNES were bad, but they're also not bringing people in, no one flies from the other side of the country to watch a PPray match, hell, no one drives from around the area for a PPray match, but you bring in Sabre Jr, or Pentagon, and you will bring people in, you'll make some buzz. For all we know their growth could be about saving money for those big weekends they have. True, literally any other promotion would have tried to move to a bigger place, but PWG understands it perfectly like we said, the day the move, the lose a lot of their atmosphere, if not all. Watch the KurtRusselmania shows, even if it's a PWG product, they suck balls atmosphere wise.
The Blu-Ray is just a small expansion, lot of people don't have DVD players anymore, but they may have PS3/4. It's not a switch, just trying to cover more ground.
It doesn't matter if what you're doing is "bringing people in" if you don't move on to a bigger venue so you can sell more tickets. The (relatively small number of) tickets for the shows all sell out in minutes. They have been doing that for a year or two at this point. There has been no growth. I'm 100% certain that the lack of shows is them saving up money to spend on international bring-ins for BOLA and All-Star Weekends (either that or Excalibur and Super Dragon just got high and forgot to book shows those months [and you're welcome for the mental image of Super Dragon trying to smoke a joint with his mask on])... but if those "big" shows don't bring in any more money than the "lesser" shows do, then you're still not growing. You might be putting on a better product, but that is not the same as growing.

Yes. PWG and EVOLVE (and others, too) have become more willing to bring in top foreign talent, but (especially in PWG’s case) this is because of that “contentment” business philosophy. There are very, very, very few unknowns for PWG in terms of finance. They know exactly how many tickets they will sell and for what price. They know exactly how much the building will cost and how much each talent will get paid and how much their transportation will cost. They probably even have a good idea of exactly how much they will get from DVD/VOD sales (they certainly have a minimum they can be certain they will meet even if the show merely gets average or even mildly bad reviews). Because of this, they know exactly how much money they have to spend on talent, and because of what I’m certain are low building costs (it’s not like they are running an actual arena like ROH or TNA do because ROH and TNA are trying to look big league), they can put pretty much every penny they want to into bringing in talent.
ROH, on the other hand, is trying to grow and make money. That means new markets, and new markets mean that they have no idea how many tickets they will sell. This means that they want to keep costs down without sacrificing too much in the ring so that they can still put on a good show, but it won’t hurt as badly if it bombs financially (like last year’s Amarillo show, for instance), and so that financially successful shows will allow them even more money to use to either venture to new markets or attempt to keep talent away from WWE/TNA/LU/Gabe. Using regional guys who they don’t have to pay to fly in, or guys from their dojo also keeps costs down because these guys are working for less in exchange for the exposure that comes with having worked for a bigger audience and with higher potential DVD/VOD sales then their local indies.
Also, ROH (and TNA), being owned by a large parent corporation, want to do their best to avoid doing things that are technically illegal due to work visa issues, so as not to anger the parent corporation. If ROH is going to bring someone in, they are going to make sure that all of the proper legal ducks are in a row before doing so, and that takes time and money.
Those are perfect reasons, i just notice an unwillingness from ROH to bring in the buzz wrestlers as they once did, older ROH would have made an effort to secure someone like Sabre Jr or Ospreay in their ranks, I want to believe they used to have a better eye for that, aside from Dalton Castle, all their 'new' acquisitions have been alumni or NJPW connections, even TNA saw more value in Trevor Lee who I honestly believe i better suited for ROH than TNA. I understand back in the day not wanting to fly in someone like The Bucks from California, but surely that time has passed
I completely agree that ROH has done a terrible of finding new, young, talent with buzz over the past few years (Lio Rush is the first guy I can think of who ROH went out and got because he had buzz. Cedric was already working for ROH when he started to get his buzz in mid 2012. That is something ROH needs to do a MUCH better job at.
But not wanting to bring in guys who they'd have to pay for international flights for and work out visa issues with is perfectly understand in their (and TNA's) position. Now that Sabre is US-based, I'd think ROH would be going after him (but there might be WWN/WWE issues there). From what I remember someone saying (I'm pretty sure it was either Koff or Cornette) that visas are easier to get in Canada (which is why they only brought Ishimori to Toronto, and in the early days of the New Japan deal, the only guys they would use in the US were guy who were American citizens like Anderson and Forever Hooligans), so it'd be nice to see ROH give him a shot there... but that would entail ROH running in Canada for more than just a New Japan show every year (which they should be doing).
The lack of new buzz-worthy talent is a problem that can (and should) be able to be fixed without relying on flying guys in from Britain or Japan. There is plenty of great talent in the US that ROH could easily be using right now but they aren't.
Understandable to want to avoid someone who is UK based, but I also think that Sabre is someone worth trying to buy out and make him come to the US. But yeah, not sure why ROH would rather have Diesel, Dijak, or Gresham and not push for someone like Gulak, or Thatcher. Nana right now should sacrifice his embassy of geeks and just have Thatcher instead
Dijak is good. He has just been booked poorly. Gresham is good as well. Daddiego probably gets booked only because they can claim that guys who go through their dojo have made it to the roster. Either that or he is blowing someone in the office. Wouldn't surprise me if it was Truth Martini. Both are equally possible.
I would LOVE for Drew Gulak to work for ROH and they SHOULD be pushing for him (although maybe Gulak thinks EVOLVE is his WWE pipeline and he won't get signed if he works for ROH... and Gulak leaving the indies would suck for just about every company we have mentioned in this discussion).
I'm defending ROH on this. I've been calling them out on this for a few months now. (not on the foreign guys, thing, but on the US/Canada part of it). It's something that ROH needs to work on (there is WAY too much connection to the New England indy scene). Hopefully including Daniels and Whitmer in the office will rectify this as they are west coast and mid-west guys respectively, and I know for that Whitmer still keeps in touch with Les Thatcher, who should have some suggestions, too.

[cero2k]

It doesn't matter if what you're doing is "bringing people in" if you don't move on to a bigger venue so you can sell more tickets. The (relatively small number of) tickets for the shows all sell out in minutes. They have been doing that for a year or two at this point. There has been no growth. I'm 100% certain that the lack of shows is them saving up money to spend on international bring-ins for BOLA and All-Star Weekends ... but if those "big" shows don't bring in any more money than the "lesser" shows do, then you're still not growing. You might be putting on a better product, but that is not the same as growing.
growth is not just going to bigger venues, there may come a day when that is the only place to grow, but that is the last place they need to go. You can't say PWG hasn't grown just because they book the same place. Compare Threemendous 3 to Threemendous 4 and see the roster they use, the amount of fans, ticket prices have double and easily sell out, ALL without a daddy corporation paying for that. THAT is growth, not everything needs to be like WWE. That's the thing with PWG, all shows are 'big' shows, except some weekend have 2 or 3 days booked, and they all sell out. Has SNL moved to bigger stages and more channels just because it got bigger? no


Dijak is good. He has just been booked poorly. Gresham is good as well. Daddiego probably gets booked only because they can claim that guys who go through their dojo have made it to the roster. Either that or he is blowing someone in the office. Wouldn't surprise me if it was Truth Martini. Both are equally possible.
I'm not saying they're bad, but on a ROH level who constantly brag about their excellence, Dijak and Diesel kinda suck. Gresham is just a copy of Cedric who they don't even use that much anyway, and they're already bringing in another flipper version of him in Rush, not being racist here, but they even have the same haircut. They're huge waste of money that could all go to someone more exciting. That Kincaid guy, at least looks different than the generic Will Ferrara.

[Big Red Machine]

It doesn't matter if what you're doing is "bringing people in" if you don't move on to a bigger venue so you can sell more tickets. The (relatively small number of) tickets for the shows all sell out in minutes. They have been doing that for a year or two at this point. There has been no growth. I'm 100% certain that the lack of shows is them saving up money to spend on international bring-ins for BOLA and All-Star Weekends ... but if those "big" shows don't bring in any more money than the "lesser" shows do, then you're still not growing. You might be putting on a better product, but that is not the same as growing.
growth is not just going to bigger venues, there may come a day when that is the only place to grow, but that is the last place they need to go. You can't say PWG hasn't grown just because they book the same place. Compare Threemendous 3 to Threemendous 4 and see the roster they use, the amount of fans, ticket prices have double and easily sell out, ALL without a daddy corporation paying for that. THAT is growth, not everything needs to be like WWE. That's the thing with PWG, all shows are 'big' shows, except some weekend have 2 or 3 days booked, and they all sell out. Has SNL moved to bigger stages and more channels just because it got bigger? no
A changing roster isn't growth. It's just turnover. That's like saying that what TNA is doing right now is "growth" because their roster is totally different now than it was in 2012, and that's ridiculous.
PWG is not growing and that is completely by design and it has worked perfectly for them and they continue to not grow by design because it works perfectly for them. I'm not saying that they need to grow or even that they should try to grow (although I do think it would be really cool if they could do iPPVs- or even have VODs ready the very next day like Smart Mark was doing with CHIKARA's DVDs for a while so those of us who aren't among the 400 lucky enough to get tickets can watch the shows spoiler-free). But I do think that the idea that they are "growing" is a very incorrect one.

Yes. SNL has indeed grown. It gets syndicated places, and SNL characters have bee spun off into other media like movies.


Dijak is good. He has just been booked poorly. Gresham is good as well. Daddiego probably gets booked only because they can claim that guys who go through their dojo have made it to the roster. Either that or he is blowing someone in the office. Wouldn't surprise me if it was Truth Martini. Both are equally possible.
I'm not saying they're bad, but on a ROH level who constantly brag about their excellence, Dijak and Diesel kinda suck. Gresham is just a copy of Cedric who they don't even use that much anyway, and they're already bringing in another flipper version of him in Rush, not being racist here, but they even have the same haircut. They're huge waste of money that could all go to someone more exciting. That Kincaid guy, at least looks different than the generic Will Ferrara.
Dijak can actually be very good. He had some matches with Elgin last fall that were great despite them being completely short-changed on time. He's got potential.
J. Diesel doesn't "kind of" suck. He DOES suck and he shouldn't be there.
Yes, Gresham and Cedric look similar and have similar styles, but that doesn't mean you can't use Gresham to tell a story with Cedric. If you think Rush is just a flipper, you haven't seen anywhere near enough of Lio Rush. Go watch his match with Fred Yehi from EVOLVE 51 (that's also the show with the 10/10 Thatcher vs. Gargano match and a lot of other great stuff so it's well worth the price). He is one of those guys like Neville or Rollins or Sydal or ACH or AJ who can do mat-work just as well as he can flip.

[cero2k]

A changing roster isn't growth. It's just turnover. That's like saying that what TNA is doing right now is "growth" because their roster is totally different now than it was in 2012, and that's ridiculous.
PWG is not growing and that is completely by design and it has worked perfectly for them and they continue to not grow by design because it works perfectly for them. I'm not saying that they need to grow or even that they should try to grow (although I do think it would be really cool if they could do iPPVs- or even have VODs ready the very next day like Smart Mark was doing with CHIKARA's DVDs for a while so those of us who aren't among the 400 lucky enough to get tickets can watch the shows spoiler-free). But I do think that the idea that they are "growing" is a very incorrect one.

Yes. SNL has indeed grown. It gets syndicated places, and SNL characters have bee spun off into other media like movies.
You're completely missing my point. It's not just changing your roster, everyone does that, but if your show five years ago was using 50% unknown cheap local guys and now you can easily use guys from all over the country and the world, THAT is growth. When TNA was suddenly getting Angle and Booker and Christian, that was growth


Dijak can actually be very good. He had some matches with Elgin last fall that were great despite them being completely short-changed on time. He's got potential.
J. Diesel doesn't "kind of" suck. He DOES suck and he shouldn't be there.
Yes, Gresham and Cedric look similar and have similar styles, but that doesn't mean you can't use Gresham to tell a story with Cedric. If you think Rush is just a flipper, you haven't seen anywhere near enough of Lio Rush. Go watch his match with Fred Yehi from EVOLVE 51 (that's also the show with the 10/10 Thatcher vs. Gargano match and a lot of other great stuff so it's well worth the price). He is one of those guys like Neville or Rollins or Sydal or ACH or AJ who can do mat-work just as well as he can flip.
Dijak can be good, so can 200 other unsigned wrestlers around the country with more charisma, better look, and maybe even cheaper. Fair enough, Rush is the new ACH, keep him, but gresham is nothing special that you couldn't use someone else for that story; I've said it for a long time, Coleman brings nothing to ROH that you couldn't replace with a better more charismatic wrestler

[Big Red Machine]

A changing roster isn't growth. It's just turnover. That's like saying that what TNA is doing right now is "growth" because their roster is totally different now than it was in 2012, and that's ridiculous.
PWG is not growing and that is completely by design and it has worked perfectly for them and they continue to not grow by design because it works perfectly for them. I'm not saying that they need to grow or even that they should try to grow (although I do think it would be really cool if they could do iPPVs- or even have VODs ready the very next day like Smart Mark was doing with CHIKARA's DVDs for a while so those of us who aren't among the 400 lucky enough to get tickets can watch the shows spoiler-free). But I do think that the idea that they are "growing" is a very incorrect one.

Yes. SNL has indeed grown. It gets syndicated places, and SNL characters have bee spun off into other media like movies.
You're completely missing my point. It's not just changing your roster, everyone does that, but if your show five years ago was using 50% unknown cheap local guys and now you can easily use guys from all over the country and the world, THAT is growth. When TNA was suddenly getting Angle and Booker and Christian, that was growth

The cheap local guys were over, too!
More importantly, though, those signings (Sting and Angle in particular) helped TNA get better TV and cable deals and drew in new fans and boosted ratings. None of that is happening for PWG because they are not expanding, either in terms of venue size, number of shows, number of locations, or number of media through which they are reaching new fans. It's an improvement in the product, but it's not growth. So now they've got top guys coming in from ROH, WWN, AAA/LU, RevPro, and occasionally they get the Wolves from TNA... but where do they "grow" from there? Women's wrestling, maybe? Fine. What do they do after that? They're still in the same building doing the same number of shows for the same number of people, and their shows are reaching the same number of people.
[/color]

Dijak can actually be very good. He had some matches with Elgin last fall that were great despite them being completely short-changed on time. He's got potential.
J. Diesel doesn't "kind of" suck. He DOES suck and he shouldn't be there.
Yes, Gresham and Cedric look similar and have similar styles, but that doesn't mean you can't use Gresham to tell a story with Cedric. If you think Rush is just a flipper, you haven't seen anywhere near enough of Lio Rush. Go watch his match with Fred Yehi from EVOLVE 51 (that's also the show with the 10/10 Thatcher vs. Gargano match and a lot of other great stuff so it's well worth the price). He is one of those guys like Neville or Rollins or Sydal or ACH or AJ who can do mat-work just as well as he can flip.
Dijak can be good, so can 200 other unsigned wrestlers around the country with more charisma, better look, and maybe even cheaper. Fair enough, Rush is the new ACH, keep him, but gresham is nothing special that you couldn't use someone else for that story; I've said it for a long time, Coleman brings nothing to ROH that you couldn't replace with a better more charismatic wrestler
Dijak doesn't have a good look? He's a f*cking giant! And he can do a moonsault!
As for Coleman... you and I apparently strongly disagree on this because I think he's a pretty awesome promo, and I thought his preacher/mentor character who keeps an eye out for young athletes and wants to keep them on the straight and narrow was a great character for an undercard babyface.

[cero2k]

The cheap local guys were over, too!
More importantly, though, those signings (Sting and Angle in particular) helped TNA get better TV and cable deals and drew in new fans and boosted ratings. None of that is happening for PWG because they are not expanding, either in terms of venue size, number of shows, number of locations, or number of media through which they are reaching new fans. It's an improvement in the product, but it's not growth. So now they've got top guys coming in from ROH, WWN, AAA/LU, RevPro, and occasionally they get the Wolves from TNA... but where do they "grow" from there? Women's wrestling, maybe? Fine. What do they do after that? They're still in the same building doing the same number of shows for the same number of people, and their shows are reaching the same number of people.
So what if they were over, no one is going to fly in, drive in, pay $50 bucks to see the RockNES Monsters
PWG has gone from selling 200-300 tickets per show to selling 500-600 tickets per show at a larger value.
They added 1 night to BOLA, being the most expensive night of the year
Number of locations is irrelevant, you don't have to go to other places for more people to see your product. They have added new viewers around the world constantly. Aside from the current UK promotions, i don't think there is another promotion in the world who has increased it's fans with so little effort.
Number of media increased, they have DVD, Blu Ray and VOD. what other media could you need?
Where will the grow next, i don't know, do they need to grow from this point on? not sure, but there is no denying that they have grown in the last 5 yrs. Not all promotions need to tour, that doesn't need to be the norm to be successful and grow.




Dijak doesn't have a good look? He's a f*cking giant! And he can do a moonsault!
As for Coleman... you and I apparently strongly disagree on this because I think he's a pretty awesome promo, and I thought his preacher/mentor character who keeps an eye out for young athletes and wants to keep them on the straight and narrow was a great character for an undercard babyface.
So was Giant Gonzales, this is not WWE, being tall means shit if you look dumb and generic like Dijak, he does a moonsault, so does Brian Cage, and Chris Hero, and Willie Mack, and Tommy End, and likely Galloway, and Max Smashmaster, and they all can do much more.

yeah, strongly disagree on Coleman, i only see enhancement generic wrestler.

[Big Red Machine]

The cheap local guys were over, too!
More importantly, though, those signings (Sting and Angle in particular) helped TNA get better TV and cable deals and drew in new fans and boosted ratings. None of that is happening for PWG because they are not expanding, either in terms of venue size, number of shows, number of locations, or number of media through which they are reaching new fans. It's an improvement in the product, but it's not growth. So now they've got top guys coming in from ROH, WWN, AAA/LU, RevPro, and occasionally they get the Wolves from TNA... but where do they "grow" from there? Women's wrestling, maybe? Fine. What do they do after that? They're still in the same building doing the same number of shows for the same number of people, and their shows are reaching the same number of people.
So what if they were over, no one is going to fly in, drive in, pay $50 bucks to see the RockNES Monsters
They don't need to. That's what the main eventers are for. No one is paying $50 per seat and traveling hundreds of miles to see Joey Ryan, Brian Cage, Tommaso Ciampa, or Willie Mack, either.
PWG has gone from selling 200-300 tickets per show to selling 500-600 tickets per show at a larger value.
But they haven't moved to a larger venue. We've established that many times in this debate.
They added 1 night to BOLA, being the most expensive night of the year
Number of locations is irrelevant, you don't have to go to other places for more people to see your product. They have added new viewers around the world constantly. Aside from the current UK promotions, i don't think there is another promotion in the world who has increased it's fans with so little effort.

You want some promotions that have increased their fanbase with less effort? New Japan got TONS more attention in the US simply by being good and having great matches without even needing to bring anyone in. Arguably Dragon Gate as well.

Number of media increased, they have DVD, Blu Ray and VOD. what other media could you need?
Where will the grow next, i don't know, do they need to grow from this point on? not sure, but there is no denying that they have grown in the last 5 yrs. Not all promotions need to tour, that doesn't need to be the norm to be successful and grow.

Like I said... I don't know. Aside from TV, which they obviously won't get, I don't know what other media there even are. Which is exactly my point.The reason they aren't growing is because they don't want to, and the reason they don't want to is because they understand that in order to have the type of shows/atmosphere/matches they want at the costs they want, they don't need to.


Dijak doesn't have a good look? He's a f*cking giant! And he can do a moonsault!
As for Coleman... you and I apparently strongly disagree on this because I think he's a pretty awesome promo, and I thought his preacher/mentor character who keeps an eye out for young athletes and wants to keep them on the straight and narrow was a great character for an undercard babyface.
So was Giant Gonzales, this is not WWE, being tall means shit if you look dumb and generic like Dijak, he does a moonsault, so does Brian Cage, and Chris Hero, and Willie Mack, and Tommy End, and likely Galloway, and Max Smashmaster, and they all can do much more.

This is ROH. Being tall here means MORE than it does in WWE right now because Dijak is bringing something that no one else in ROH does (until they hopefully sign Punisher Martinez). Dijak is 6'7''. Willie Mack is 5'10''. Galloway isn't an option because he is working for TNA (and for Gabe). Cage is both signed to LU and overrated. Tommy end is 5'11'' and tremendously overrated. He hits people hard. So what? So do Hero, Gulak, Roddy, Joe, and Thatcher, and those guys not only hit hard, but they can wrestle, too.

[NWK2000]

If anything it gives independent wrestlers a reason to be better, so that they can make money in another organization (WWE, TNA). Plus, stuff like Lucha Underground and the New Japan show is giving lucha and puro mainstream exposure. Just from those points alone I can see more benefits than negatives.

[Big Red Machine]

If anything it gives independent wrestlers a reason to be better, so that they can make money in another organization (WWE, TNA). Plus, stuff like Lucha Underground and the New Japan show is giving lucha and puro mainstream exposure. Just from those points alone I can see more benefits than negatives.

That's always been how it was, though, going back to the late 90's when guys like Daniels, Mike Modest, Devon Storm, and Lance Diamond were the top guys on the indy scene (all of whom were eventually signed to one of the big three). And even if that wasn't the case, it's not so much NXT that has caused a change for indy guys as it was Hunter's rise to prominence (and even without Hunter, New Japan's business turnaround has opened up another big-money option for indy guys who don't fit WWE's traditional mold).

[Big Red Machine]

An interesting tidbit:
I'm currently rewatching Gabe's Guest Booker for the composite review thread (and also because it's awesome and everyone should buy it), and he mentions that one of the rumors going around when WWE started the new ECW was that Vince was going to try to use ECW to take down the indies.