ROH/PWG Update

[Big Red Machine]

Source: PWInsider

By Mike Johnson on 2015-12-12 02:42:51
In a surprise move for the fans live at Pro Wrestling Guerrilla's All Star Extravaganza in California, Ring of Honor star Adam Cole returned unadvertised to the promotion for the first time since he signed an exclusive ROH deal and was no longer cleared to work PWG.

Cole appeared in a show closing angle where he came out dressed as PWG promoter/wrestler Super Dragon, only to disrobe and join Dragon, The Young Bucks and Roderick Strong as members of PWG heel supergroup Mt. Rushmore 2.0.

We are told Cole has not left ROH and his current ROH contract has not expired. There is an agreement in place between ROH and PWG which will allow ROH talents to work on PWG events that do not conflict with ROH commitments, PWInsider.com is told.

In other PWG news, Sami Callihan also returned as a surprise. That was pretty much planned from the moment he received his WWE release.

[Big Red Machine]

Source: PWInsider

By Mike Johnson on 2015-12-12 02:42:51


Cole appeared in a show closing angle where he came out dressed as PWG promoter/wrestler Super Dragon, only to disrobe and join Dragon, The Young Bucks and Roderick Strong as members of PWG heel supergroup Mt. Rushmore 2.0.

When you only know one angle...

[cero2k]

Source: PWInsider

By Mike Johnson on 2015-12-12 02:42:51


Cole appeared in a show closing angle where he came out dressed as PWG promoter/wrestler Super Dragon, only to disrobe and join Dragon, The Young Bucks and Roderick Strong as members of PWG heel supergroup Mt. Rushmore 2.0.

When you only know one angle...

you do it over and over because it's the best show in the country

[Big Red Machine]

Source: PWInsider

By Mike Johnson on 2015-12-12 02:42:51


Cole appeared in a show closing angle where he came out dressed as PWG promoter/wrestler Super Dragon, only to disrobe and join Dragon, The Young Bucks and Roderick Strong as members of PWG heel supergroup Mt. Rushmore 2.0.

When you only know one angle...

you do it over and over because it's the best show in the country

Yeah? And how did that work out for WCW?


PWG is basically CHIKARA. They've created their own little cult, so they'll get pops and great reactions for anything they do. And that's good for them. They have ensured that so long as they don't do anything radical, they'll remain in business forever (which is exactly what the bookers and owners want, so again: good for them) but I don't think you can use fan reactions to adequately judge how good a PWG show is (just like with CHIKARA). It's like when fans in the Impact Zone (and, coincidentally, the ROH Nashville crowd), chant "THIS IS AWESOME." It has to be taken with a grain of salt (or possibly even multiple).

[cero2k]

Yeah? And how did that work out for WCW?


PWG is basically CHIKARA. They've created their own little cult, so they'll get pops and great reactions for anything they do. And that's good for them. They have ensured that so long as they don't do anything radical, they'll remain in business forever (which is exactly what the bookers and owners want, so again: good for them) but I don't think you can use fan reactions to adequately judge how good a PWG show is (just like with CHIKARA). It's like when fans in the Impact Zone (and, coincidentally, the ROH Nashville crowd), chant "THIS IS AWESOME." It has to be taken with a grain of salt (or possibly even multiple).

except WCW was a story driven company, PWG is not, it wouldn't hurt them to bring out a heel stable every so often (like every other wrestling promotion)

There is a lot about crowd reaction, but you and i see the same shows and we both know they're still putting out amazing matches, that's what they sell, not storylines, they don't need to leave you in cliffhangers, because they have secured a strong fanbase that keeps growing.

will they grow? maybe, but i think that most everyone agrees that PWG shouldn't grow out of the legion hall anyway. their only growth is bringing in more wrestlers, and aside from NJPW, they're already bringing in most of the top guns in independent wrestling today.

[Big Red Machine]

Yeah? And how did that work out for WCW?


PWG is basically CHIKARA. They've created their own little cult, so they'll get pops and great reactions for anything they do. And that's good for them. They have ensured that so long as they don't do anything radical, they'll remain in business forever (which is exactly what the bookers and owners want, so again: good for them) but I don't think you can use fan reactions to adequately judge how good a PWG show is (just like with CHIKARA). It's like when fans in the Impact Zone (and, coincidentally, the ROH Nashville crowd), chant "THIS IS AWESOME." It has to be taken with a grain of salt (or possibly even multiple).

except WCW was a story driven company, PWG is not, it wouldn't hurt them to bring out a heel stable every so often (like every other wrestling promotion)

There is a lot about crowd reaction, but you and i see the same shows and we both know they're still putting out amazing matches, that's what they sell, not storylines, they don't need to leave you in cliffhangers, because they have secured a strong fanbase that keeps growing.

will they grow? maybe, but i think that most everyone agrees that PWG shouldn't grow out of the legion hall anyway. their only growth is bringing in more wrestlers, and aside from NJPW, they're already bringing in most of the top guns in independent wrestling today.

"Amazing" matches is an overstatement. It's not 2013 anymore, and, quite frankly, we've seen most to of these matchups before and most of the stuff they do a million times. My theory for why Speedball is the most over babyface in the company is that (in addition to being a great babyface) he's almost completely new. Sydal's run will be great for similar reasons (I'm am very much looking forward to Sydal vs. Roddy). The Bucks deserve all of the credit in the world for the way they are able to mix things up every match, but at this point I feel like I've seen everything that ACH, Lee, Swann, Ricochet, etc. can do in a PWG environment. That's part of the problem with not having stories. You stick ACH in ROH or Trevor Lee in Evolve, and I'm all over them again simply because there is some sort of story being told, no matter how faint it is.

Is their fanbase really growing? Or is it just staying where it is. You don't hear the same amount of hype for their DVDs that you used to hear in 2011-2014, and we'll never know if they are attracting new fans because they always run the same small building every show.

Will they grow? No. They won't. Because Super Dragon and Excalibur don't want to. They're happy with what they have and doing anything else would be more work than they want to put in.

[cero2k]

"Amazing" matches is an overstatement. It's not 2013 anymore, and, quite frankly, we've seen most to of these matchups before and most of the stuff they do a million times. My theory for why Speedball is the most over babyface in the company is that (in addition to being a great babyface) he's almost completely new. Sydal's run will be great for similar reasons (I'm am very much looking forward to Sydal vs. Roddy). The Bucks deserve all of the credit in the world for the way they are able to mix things up every match, but at this point I feel like I've seen everything that ACH, Lee, Swann, Ricochet, etc. can do in a PWG environment. That's part of the problem with not having stories. You stick ACH in ROH or Trevor Lee in Evolve, and I'm all over them again simply because there is some sort of story being told, no matter how faint it is.

Is their fanbase really growing? Or is it just staying where it is. You don't hear the same amount of hype for their DVDs that you used to hear in 2011-2014, and we'll never know if they are attracting new fans because they always run the same small building every show.

Will they grow? No. They won't. Because Super Dragon and Excalibur don't want to. They're happy with what they have and doing anything else would be more work than they want to put in.

Amazing is definitely not an overstatement, and their matches are definitely not played out a million times, how often have you seen cage/elgin vs wolves? or fenix vs sydal? or zack saber vs hero? if there is something that PWG is not guilty off is overplaying the same match over and over and over again like literally every other 'notable' promotion in the world. The reason why speedball is over is because he's awesome, you've said it before, he's probably the best babyface out there right now.

the fanbase is also definitely growing, maybe not as fast as it was the last 4 yrs, but independent wrestling fanbase is definitely growing. This year the biggest growth was towards mexico and UK because of LU and all the UK guys that started coming to the US, because of Grado and Galloway and Saber Jr., but PWG, ROH, Evolve all saw small increases too

[Big Red Machine]

"Amazing" matches is an overstatement. It's not 2013 anymore, and, quite frankly, we've seen most to of these matchups before and most of the stuff they do a million times. My theory for why Speedball is the most over babyface in the company is that (in addition to being a great babyface) he's almost completely new. Sydal's run will be great for similar reasons (I'm am very much looking forward to Sydal vs. Roddy). The Bucks deserve all of the credit in the world for the way they are able to mix things up every match, but at this point I feel like I've seen everything that ACH, Lee, Swann, Ricochet, etc. can do in a PWG environment. That's part of the problem with not having stories. You stick ACH in ROH or Trevor Lee in Evolve, and I'm all over them again simply because there is some sort of story being told, no matter how faint it is.

Is their fanbase really growing? Or is it just staying where it is. You don't hear the same amount of hype for their DVDs that you used to hear in 2011-2014, and we'll never know if they are attracting new fans because they always run the same small building every show.

Will they grow? No. They won't. Because Super Dragon and Excalibur don't want to. They're happy with what they have and doing anything else would be more work than they want to put in.

Amazing is definitely not an overstatement, and their matches are definitely not played out a million times, how often have you seen cage/elgin vs wolves? or fenix vs sydal? or zack saber vs hero? if there is something that PWG is not guilty off is overplaying the same match over and over and over again like literally every other 'notable' promotion in the world. The reason why speedball is over is because he's awesome, you've said it before, he's probably the best babyface out there right now.

the fanbase is also definitely growing, maybe not as fast as it was the last 4 yrs, but independent wrestling fanbase is definitely growing. This year the biggest growth was towards mexico and UK because of LU and all the UK guys that started coming to the US, because of Grado and Galloway and Saber Jr., but PWG, ROH, Evolve all saw small increases too

It's not even an issue of the matches themselves. It's an issue of the matches all feeling the same. Speedball being an awesome babyface helps make his matches feel different from every other match on a PWG card. Hero, although I don't really like his new in-ring style, it is definitely different, and he has fantastic instincts for what the finish should be and when it should come. Sabre. Jr. also benefits from simply having a style haven't seen before. His style got less special to me as I started watching more Evolve.
I've seen the Wolves vs. big muscle dudes, I've seen Sydal vs. Luchadors, and I've seen the Young Bucks have a six man tag.

As for the fanbase growing, I think the "growth" on the indies is limited to certain companies. ROH has grown a lot this year, just based on number of shows and attendance (they passed their total attentance for last year in early September this year). AIW has been steadily growing. LU showed some growth. Evolve might have grown a tiny but, but they certainly seem to be getting more hype than in years past. PWG hasn't shown any demonstrable growth (and such a thing would be impossible unless they are disclose their DVD sales. But based on what we can measure- how much people are talking about it compared to years past, PWG has not grown (and, in fact, seems to have gotten a bit less coverage).

[cero2k]

It's not even an issue of the matches themselves. It's an issue of the matches all feeling the same. Speedball being an awesome babyface helps make his matches feel different from every other match on a PWG card. Hero, although I don't really like his new in-ring style, it is definitely different, and he has fantastic instincts for what the finish should be and when it should come. Sabre. Jr. also benefits from simply having a style haven't seen before. His style got less special to me as I started watching more Evolve.
I've seen the Wolves vs. big muscle dudes, I've seen Sydal vs. Luchadors, and I've seen the Young Bucks have a six man tag.

As for the fanbase growing, I think the "growth" on the indies is limited to certain companies. ROH has grown a lot this year, just based on number of shows and attendance (they passed their total attentance for last year in early September this year). AIW has been steadily growing. LU showed some growth. Evolve might have grown a tiny but, but they certainly seem to be getting more hype than in years past. PWG hasn't shown any demonstrable growth (and such a thing would be impossible unless they are disclose their DVD sales. But based on what we can measure- how much people are talking about it compared to years past, PWG has not grown (and, in fact, seems to have gotten a bit less coverage).

i don't wanna get into another pwg vs roh discussion, but i just don't understand how you would feel that PWG matches feel the same and not feel the same about ROH or NJPW that literally do the same matches over and over again, or where the majority of the wrestlers are the same mold. If you say you've seen Wolves vs Big Dudes, then you've surely seen technical wrestler 1 vs technical wrestler 2 millions of times, i mean, Lethal vs O'Reilly is the same thing as Lethal vs Fish, or Kingdom vs Bucks is the same as RPG vs Bucks

From all those promotions, PWG is hard to really quantify how much growth they've had, but i've never stopped hearing about PWG and people asking how to get into PWG, tickets went up on price and started to sell out (including standing space) faster than the previous year.

[Big Red Machine]

It's not even an issue of the matches themselves. It's an issue of the matches all feeling the same. Speedball being an awesome babyface helps make his matches feel different from every other match on a PWG card. Hero, although I don't really like his new in-ring style, it is definitely different, and he has fantastic instincts for what the finish should be and when it should come. Sabre. Jr. also benefits from simply having a style haven't seen before. His style got less special to me as I started watching more Evolve.
I've seen the Wolves vs. big muscle dudes, I've seen Sydal vs. Luchadors, and I've seen the Young Bucks have a six man tag.

As for the fanbase growing, I think the "growth" on the indies is limited to certain companies. ROH has grown a lot this year, just based on number of shows and attendance (they passed their total attentance for last year in early September this year). AIW has been steadily growing. LU showed some growth. Evolve might have grown a tiny but, but they certainly seem to be getting more hype than in years past. PWG hasn't shown any demonstrable growth (and such a thing would be impossible unless they are disclose their DVD sales. But based on what we can measure- how much people are talking about it compared to years past, PWG has not grown (and, in fact, seems to have gotten a bit less coverage).

i don't wanna get into another pwg vs roh discussion, but i just don't understand how you would feel that PWG matches feel the same and not feel the same about ROH or NJPW that literally do the same matches over and over again, or where the majority of the wrestlers are the same mold. If you say you've seen Wolves vs Big Dudes, then you've surely seen technical wrestler 1 vs technical wrestler 2 millions of times, i mean, Lethal vs O'Reilly is the same thing as Lethal vs Fish, or Kingdom vs Bucks is the same as RPG vs Bucks

From all those promotions, PWG is hard to really quantify how much growth they've had, but i've never stopped hearing about PWG and people asking how to get into PWG, tickets went up on price and started to sell out (including standing space) faster than the previous year.

Because in PWG it feels like it's the same match every match for all seven matches up and down every show. ROH and New Japan make things feel different via storylines and announcing and having more than two styles on every show. Storylines are exactly what made the Lethal vs. Fish title match at All-Star Extravaganza VII feel different that the Lethal vs. O'Reilly title match later that very night.

With technical wrestling, I find it a lot more rewatchable than the PWG spotfest match because each time it tells a story. It might be the same story in the end, but it feels like it gets there a different way, where as PWG is all superkicks, dives, and head-drops. I can't complain if they are using submissions in every wrestling match because that's what the basis of wrestling is. I can complain if I see a million, zillion dives in every match. I guess you could say it just comes down to style preference, and, when given the choice I'd much rather watch EVOLVE than PWG (and ROH finds a good medium between those two styles and also brawling, though I wish they'd actually lean more towards technical matches than they currently do).
Kingdom vs. Bucks is MUCH different than RPG Vice vs. Bucks. RPG Vice are similar in style to the Bucks (although with more comedy), while the Kingdom has Maria and do a lot more dog and pony show stuff in their matches.