ROH Talent Pulled From Dreamwave Wrestling

[cero2k]

Source: pwponderings.com

Dreamwave Wrestling promoter Jay Repsel tweeted the following Tuesday night (11/18). This seemingly coincides with what was reported by prowrestling.net about contracted talent being pulled from other promotions including PWG. While this is just one perspective, it certainly can’t help but further the debate that arose from reports similar to this one about how talent are treated by various promotion. You can get tickets to Dreamwave’s next show at http://dreamwavewrestling.com/tickets.htm

[cero2k]

I worry for PWG, i'm seriously gonna be pissed off at ROH if it affects my PWG experiences

[Big Red Machine]

My assumption is that ROH doesn't want there to be any flight problems, as Final Battle is the next night. They don't want any accidental no-shows/screw-ups on PPV.

[Big Red Machine]

Here are some Tweets on the matter from one of the co-owners of AIW:

@ChandlerBiggins: No reason for people to be upset over ROH stuff. All willingly signed contracts. It's up to the indie scene to replace talent. Adapt or die

@ChandlerBiggins: @juicypatlucey Nobody should be shocked, it's been a thing we knew about a year ago. People knew when they signed as well.

@ChandlerBiggins: @juicypatlucey Been in the works for a long time. And these guys are being paid to justify it. Currently it's only a few right now

[Big Red Machine]

Another promotion (SMASH, I think) is also reporting certain ROH talent being pulled from shows. They used the same wording as Dreamwave did, so I assume this was more than a one-time directive.

[cero2k]

Here are some Tweets on the matter from one of the co-owners of AIW:

@ChandlerBiggins: No reason for people to be upset over ROH stuff. All willingly signed contracts. It's up to the indie scene to replace talent. Adapt or die

@ChandlerBiggins: @juicypatlucey Nobody should be shocked, it's been a thing we knew about a year ago. People knew when they signed as well.

@ChandlerBiggins: @juicypatlucey Been in the works for a long time. And these guys are being paid to justify it. Currently it's only a few right now

i completely understand that ROH is about to become the official No 2 promotion in the US with TNA dropping off from a major network. completely understandable that they now want 100% exclusivity of their guys. I just hate that it will affect soo many other promotions out there, i'm pissed about my PWG, but there's a bunch of other promotions that will take a huge hit out of this. I can't imagine how many other promotions right now have ROH guys as champions. I'm also hoping that ROH is paying their guys enough.

Now if this where to be a case where the ruling extends beyond Final Battle (which i'm guessing likely will), I wonder how many people will want to stay with ROH and without the ability to sign guys like Cole, Styles, KO, who will rise to the top of the indie scene now ?

[Big Red Machine]

Here are some Tweets on the matter from one of the co-owners of AIW:

@ChandlerBiggins: No reason for people to be upset over ROH stuff. All willingly signed contracts. It's up to the indie scene to replace talent. Adapt or die

@ChandlerBiggins: @juicypatlucey Nobody should be shocked, it's been a thing we knew about a year ago. People knew when they signed as well.

@ChandlerBiggins: @juicypatlucey Been in the works for a long time. And these guys are being paid to justify it. Currently it's only a few right now

i completely understand that ROH is about to become the official No 2 promotion in the US with TNA dropping off from a major network. completely understandable that they now want 100% exclusivity of their guys. I just hate that it will affect soo many other promotions out there, i'm pissed about my PWG, but there's a bunch of other promotions that will take a huge hit out of this. I can't imagine how many other promotions right now have ROH guys as champions. I'm also hoping that ROH is paying their guys enough.

Now if this where to be a case where the ruling extends beyond Final Battle (which i'm guessing likely will), I wonder how many people will want to stay with ROH and without the ability to sign guys like Cole, Styles, KO, who will rise to the top of the indie scene now ?

From what I've heard, it only affects certain guys (Cole, Elgin Briscoes, reDRagon).
As for who will want to stay with ROH? EVERYONE. They have the most exposure of any indy, they have lots of brand-name value, they probably pay better, and they have the in with New Japan.

As for it affecting PWG... all of PWG's matches are interchangeable spotfests anyway. Granted, Cole and O'Reilly were two guys who were a lot better at making it feel less like that, but still... basically everyone on the PWG roster is inter changeable to a degree. If they cna't use Elgin, they can stick Brian Cage in that spot and the match will go the same way.

And actually cutting their talent out of PWG is good for ROH. Now that Chuck Taylor is a free agent, it stops PWG form booking the "dream matches" that ROH might want to.

[cero2k]

From what I've heard, it only affects certain guys (Cole, Elgin Briscoes, reDRagon).
As for who will want to stay with ROH? EVERYONE. They have the most exposure of any indy, they have lots of brand-name value, they probably pay better, and they have the in with New Japan.
if guys like Styles and The Bucks have rejected WWE, don't think for a second that ROH has it made.

As for it affecting PWG... all of PWG's matches are interchangeable spotfests anyway. Granted, Cole and O'Reilly were two guys who were a lot better at making it feel less like that, but still... basically everyone on the PWG roster is inter changeable to a degree. If they cna't use Elgin, they can stick Brian Cage in that spot and the match will go the same way.
it doesn't matter, it still cuts their roster almost by half. and spotfest or not, it's still more entertaining that ROH [-(

And actually cutting their talent out of PWG is good for ROH. Now that Chuck Taylor is a free agent, it stops PWG form booking the "dream matches" that ROH might want to.
but it stops PWG from doing the dream matches that ROH is slow at delivering, so in the words of Kevin Steen, "fuck ROH"

[Big Red Machine]

From what I've heard, it only affects certain guys (Cole, Elgin Briscoes, reDRagon).
As for who will want to stay with ROH? EVERYONE. They have the most exposure of any indy, they have lots of brand-name value, they probably pay better, and they have the in with New Japan.
if guys like Styles and The Bucks have rejected WWE, don't think for a second that ROH has it made.
WWE isn't just restrictive in terms of where you can work. It is also restrictive in the ring, both in terms of time and style. I think that this is the major reason they turned them down. If you can split time between ROH and New Japan the way AJ and the Bucks have, plus charge a good price on the indies, you seem pretty set to me.


As for it affecting PWG... all of PWG's matches are interchangeable spotfests anyway. Granted, Cole and O'Reilly were two guys who were a lot better at making it feel less like that, but still... basically everyone on the PWG roster is inter changeable to a degree. If they cna't use Elgin, they can stick Brian Cage in that spot and the match will go the same way.
it doesn't matter, it still cuts their roster almost by half. and spotfest or not, it's still more entertaining that ROH [-(
The only guys it really affects are Elgin, Cole, and Kyle. The Briscoes have been no-showing/cancelling PWG appearances for years, and I don't think Fish has worked their too much. It doesn't cut their roster by half. They have tons of guys, and as the AIW promoter said: you go find new guys. That's what ROH has been doing for years.
As for it being more entertaining... can you really tell me that every PWG match doesn't blend together for you? I've watched basically everything over the past few years before this year's BOLA, and I barely remember anything that didn't involve Candice and Joey. I don't even remember the results of the previous show. With ROH, that never happens. I know who is doing what, who is moving up and down the card, I remember big spots. I think the last time I watched an entire PWG show in one sitting was Steen Wolf or Fear. Why? Because after two matches, everything starts to feel the same, and I stop caring.
And actually cutting their talent out of PWG is good for ROH. Now that Chuck Taylor is a free agent, it stops PWG form booking the "dream matches" that ROH might want to.
but it stops PWG from doing the dream matches that ROH is slow at delivering, so in the words of Kevin Steen, "fuck ROH"
Too slow? Why? Because ROH has patience and is interested in both making money and delivering a creatively satisfying product?
Hypothetical:
We are going to get Kurt Angle vs. Bryan Danielson. You would rather A) someone just said: "Hey guys! We're doing Kurt vs. Dragon tomorrow. Buy the DVD!" Or would you rather B) have Dragon come out and say that he is the best wrestler in the world. Then have Kurt Angle's music play and Kurt come out and tell Dragon that his Olympic Gold Medal says differently. Then we get a staredown. Then we get a show where Dragon cuts a promo saying he'll make Kurt tap because he'll be damned if he loses on his home turf. Then we get a show where Kurt cuts promo saying that this is his first match in this promotion and he'll be damned if he will walk out of the arena with anything but a victory. Then we have some video packages, and THEN we have the match.
Which of those scenarios is more exciting?
ROH is "too slow" to deliver on dream matches because THEY ACTUALLY HAVE IMPORTANT SH*T GOING ON! PWG doesn't. I'm sure I'm sounding like a wrestling snob here, but PWG's "booking" is crap, and they get by on having a card full of spotfests. They just got lucky that this somehow turned them into the hipster-ville promotion (and the fan's helped. I do like that the fans are into the kayfabe).
And speaking of Kevin Steen and "f*ck ROH"... that wasn't PWG's idea. That was ROH's. Steen putting PWG over on the ROH message board was all Steen's idea. And yet PWG just comes along and jumps into it and cuts ROH's legs off by Booking a world tile match between Davey and Steen and a world title match between Steen and Generico (with a completely random ladder stip, no less) when it was clear that ROH was building to those two matches. Why? No reason. And when I say "no reason" that's exactly what I mean. ANYONE could have fit into those spots (because PWG's "booking" is so random), and PWG just so happened to choose guys who ROH was looking to book Steen against. If I was ROH, I'd have been pissed as hell.

[badnewzxl]

I'd rather have them say buy the DVD bc Angle and Dragon don't need a storyline to get ppl interested in the match. That makes the fans care a lot more about certain matches but it also makes me lose some of my interest. For example: the more Mic work Punk and Jericho did during their feud the more bored I got with it. I was really excited about the match but listening to them cut promos week after weak took a lot of the steam out of it. Have the dream match first THEN build the compelling/boring (bc there's a thin line) storyline. Angle and Dragon coming out and cutting promos for weeks just takes the steam out of it; a bunch of talking doesn't really make me want to see a match. I feel like they've had Bray and Ambrose do way too much talking leading up to Survivor Series and now it has nowhere near the momentum it had the night after HIAC.

Week after week of build is necessary when you need to get the fans interested but you don't need that with a dream match. The fact that it's referred to as a dream match shows that fans already want to see it. Give them the straight up match then build the epic story

[KILLdozer]

Oh btw, About the being pissed as hell how PWG booked shit ahead of ROH, seemingly deliberately-an old favorite quote of mine comes into play here: It's not personal. It's strictly business.

[KILLdozer]

Oh btw, About the being pissed as hell how PWG booked shit ahead of ROH, seemingly deliberately-an old favorite quote of mine comes into play here: "It's not personal. It's strictly business".

[Bob-O]

I'd rather have them say buy the DVD bc Angle and Dragon don't need a storyline to get ppl interested in the match. That makes the fans care a lot more about certain matches but it also makes me lose some of my interest. For example: the more Mic work Punk and Jericho did during their feud the more bored I got with it. I was really excited about the match but listening to them cut promos week after weak took a lot of the steam out of it. Have the dream match first THEN build the compelling/boring (bc there's a thin line) storyline. Angle and Dragon coming out and cutting promos for weeks just takes the steam out of it; a bunch of talking doesn't really make me want to see a match. I feel like they've had Bray and Ambrose do way too much talking leading up to Survivor Series and now it has nowhere near the momentum it had the night after HIAC.

Week after week of build is necessary when you need to get the fans interested but you don't need that with a dream match. The fact that it's referred to as a dream match shows that fans already want to see it. Give them the straight up match then build the epic story

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

This! All of it. Every single word. Especially:

the more Mic work Punk and Jericho did during their feud the more bored I got with it. I was really excited about the match but listening to them cut promos week after weak took a lot of the steam out of it.

Two of the greatest talents of our time, facing off on the biggest night of our sport in what could have been the match of the night, and they felt the need to make it 8-| "personal" instead of about the better man. I knew the match would be good, but they ruined what could have been a real moment.

[/derail]

[Big Red Machine]

Oh btw, About the being pissed as hell how PWG booked shit ahead of ROH, seemingly deliberately-an old favorite quote of mine comes into play here: It's not personal. It's strictly business.

Yes. I'm not faulting PWG for doing this. I'm just pointing out why ROH would be pissed about it.

[Big Red Machine]

I'd rather have them say buy the DVD bc Angle and Dragon don't need a storyline to get ppl interested in the match. That makes the fans care a lot more about certain matches but it also makes me lose some of my interest. For example: the more Mic work Punk and Jericho did during their feud the more bored I got with it. I was really excited about the match but listening to them cut promos week after weak took a lot of the steam out of it. Have the dream match first THEN build the compelling/boring (bc there's a thin line) storyline. Angle and Dragon coming out and cutting promos for weeks just takes the steam out of it; a bunch of talking doesn't really make me want to see a match. I feel like they've had Bray and Ambrose do way too much talking leading up to Survivor Series and now it has nowhere near the momentum it had the night after HIAC.

Week after week of build is necessary when you need to get the fans interested but you don't need that with a dream match. The fact that it's referred to as a dream match shows that fans already want to see it. Give them the straight up match then build the epic story

I agree with your examples here, but I don't think they apply to this debate. In the examples you gave, the problem (to me, at least) was that they spent so much time talking and doing segment after segment after segment that we saw them in the ring together all the time, killing the excitement of things. This came as a result of WWE having so many hours of TV to fill, and feeling it was necessary to have these guys interact in some way on TV in order to build the feud (which is a major problem WWE has because you inevitably either overexpose the feud before the PPV comes around, or you kill it by having them talk to each other all the time when the logic of the story says that they should want to be fighting instead of talking).
Indy companies don't have the time available to them to make that kind of mistake. You wouldn't see Angle and Dragon talk back and forth on ROH TV every week for two months. At most, I think they'd have two appearances each- the initial confrontation, and one backstage promo from each guy (probably on different weeks) and then the match on PPV. If we only see them in the ring together for the initial confrontation and then for the match, you don't won't lose that feeling of specialness before they step into the ring for the big dream match.

Also with both of these feuds, the stories they tried to tell are things that overshadowed the idea of a match (especially with Ambrose-Wyatt. With Punk-Jericho it was more a series of angles that were at least designed to get some heat on Jericho). With the scenario I've described, the focus is on the match itself, not some storyline surrounding the match as an attempt to justify the match. It's a dream match, and neither guy wants to lose.

Think of the very first Angle vs. Joe match. Can you really tell me that Angle headbutting Joe made you want to see that match LESS than you did before?

[Big Red Machine]

the more Mic work Punk and Jericho did during their feud the more bored I got with it. I was really excited about the match but listening to them cut promos week after weak took a lot of the steam out of it.

Two of the greatest talents of our time, facing off on the biggest night of our sport in what could have been the match of the night, and they felt the need to make it 8-| "personal" instead of about the better man. I knew the match would be good, but they ruined what could have been a real moment.

[/derail]

Did you guys really see Punk vs. Jericho as that much of a dream match? I thought the match would be awesome, but I never saw it a much of a "dream match."

I think some of the problems with this one in particular is that they didn't let Jericho get enough heat. All he was doing was airing Punk's family's dirty laundry, and Punk told us that it as all true, but his family members all got better, so no harm, no foul. If they had done something like Jericho saying that Punk's father was an alcoholic, therefore Punk will be, then had Jericho pour beer down Punk's throat (like Punk vs. Raven, but with Punk being a pure babyface), THAT would have gotten heat.

Jericho and Punk actually wanted Jericho to tattoo his name onto Punk's body, but Vince said no.

[badnewzxl]

the more Mic work Punk and Jericho did during their feud the more bored I got with it. I was really excited about the match but listening to them cut promos week after weak took a lot of the steam out of it.

Two of the greatest talents of our time, facing off on the biggest night of our sport in what could have been the match of the night, and they felt the need to make it 8-| "personal" instead of about the better man. I knew the match would be good, but they ruined what could have been a real moment.

[/derail]

Did you guys really see Punk vs. Jericho as that much of a dream match? I thought the match would be awesome, but I never saw it a much of a "dream match."

I think some of the problems with this one in particular is that they didn't let Jericho get enough heat. All he was doing was airing Punk's family's dirty laundry, and Punk told us that it as all true, but his family members all got better, so no harm, no foul. If they had done something like Jericho saying that Punk's father was an alcoholic, therefore Punk will be, then had Jericho pour beer down Punk's throat (like Punk vs. Raven, but with Punk being a pure babyface), THAT would have gotten heat.

Jericho and Punk actually wanted Jericho to tattoo his name onto Punk's body, but Vince said no.

Jericho didn't need to get heat to get the match over; the match was already over. Trying to get heat on one guy or the other wasn't necessary to promote the match and it actually hampered it. You wanna give Jericho some real heat? Have the match and have him cheat or get dad's or something that deprived the fans of the match they had been salivating over. Then the fans would be mad at Jericho. A bunch of promos just aren't needed in every damn feud and it ruins a lot of them. Ppl don't always want to see a Drama played out in the main event; some times you just want action.

[KILLdozer]

I agree-Wyatt gets so damn seemingly repetitive as it is without all the extra shit talkin'. Now it just seems worse-he's been grating on me long enough as it is and now it's only gotten worse.

[KILLdozer]

Oh-I know this shit. They've got all kinds of "strange shit" , like haunted houses, mythical beasts, ...yea, a wrestling show will fit right in. Very out of place IMO.

[Big Red Machine]

Two of the greatest talents of our time, facing off on the biggest night of our sport in what could have been the match of the night, and they felt the need to make it 8-| "personal" instead of about the better man. I knew the match would be good, but they ruined what could have been a real moment.

[/derail]

Did you guys really see Punk vs. Jericho as that much of a dream match? I thought the match would be awesome, but I never saw it a much of a "dream match."

I think some of the problems with this one in particular is that they didn't let Jericho get enough heat. All he was doing was airing Punk's family's dirty laundry, and Punk told us that it as all true, but his family members all got better, so no harm, no foul. If they had done something like Jericho saying that Punk's father was an alcoholic, therefore Punk will be, then had Jericho pour beer down Punk's throat (like Punk vs. Raven, but with Punk being a pure babyface), THAT would have gotten heat.

Jericho and Punk actually wanted Jericho to tattoo his name onto Punk's body, but Vince said no.

Jericho didn't need to get heat to get the match over; the match was already over. Trying to get heat on one guy or the other wasn't necessary to promote the match and it actually hampered it. You wanna give Jericho some real heat? Have the match and have him cheat or get dad's or something that deprived the fans of the match they had been salivating over. Then the fans would be mad at Jericho. A bunch of promos just aren't needed in every damn feud and it ruins a lot of them. Ppl don't always want to see a Drama played out in the main event; some times you just want action.

In most cases, I would agree with you, and if I had my way, the match would be presented as a lot more important than the drama behind it (cheap plug for my fantasy booking, where I try to do just that), but this was a Wretlemania main event, and you need to do whatever you need to do to draw in the casual fans. I don't think they (casuals outside of Chicago) saw Punk on that level yet, and I certainly don't think that they saw it as a dream match. They needed an angle, and playing into Punk's Straigh Edge-ishness was a good way to go in theory. The problem was their execution. As you said, it was too much talking.

The cheating thing is a GREAT angle. There is nothing more heelish than a guy who says he is the best, then cheats to win, and it would have worked even better with trying to prove that he, not Punk is the real "best in the world." But that wasn't the story they chose to tell because they thought (and I agree) they needed an angle for this match for Mania, and in order to an angle at Mania, you'd have to do a match where Jericho cheats and wins the title before Mania so that Punk can chase him going into Mania, but they weren't going to do that because they wanted Punk to hold the belt for that big title reign in order to build the title up so that it meant something when Rock won it at the Rumble the next year.