Problem with heels now?

[kirbs2002]

Listening to The Ross Report and watching wrestling again with something vaguely resembling regularity has brought up an interesting question.

There's no denying that the heat heels get these days compared to, say, the "Golden Ages" is different and these days there are few talents I can think of that get truly over as a heel, and I wonder why. The answer I seem to find myself leaning towards is that nobody really wants to be heel anymore. Everyone seems to want to be babyface or some version of the tweener/antihero.

One of the reasons I hear is that heels don't cheat enough anymore because it's hard to. It's hard to because there's so few (kayfabe) rules now anymore. Count-outs for brawling outside, (the few remaining) illegal maneuvers are more slow, hitting with closed fists is legal, etc. It's impossible to break laws when there are no laws to be broken!

Another reason I seem to lean towards internally is that maybe far too many of these people are afraid to be heel. They don't want to have a crowd booing, heckling, insulting them or what have you, and maybe with the Attitude Era, Ruthless Aggression Era, etc. that we have glorified the tweener too much. Perhaps this sport needs more people who are trolls at heart.

I've had some pointed words from some fans about there being a difference between heel heat and, for lack of a better term, "X-Pac heat". I say there is NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER. Heat is heat. What is the actual difference between fans these days hating on, say, The Miz for being unworthy of being WWE champion and fans in the 70's wanting to lynch the heel who snuck a low blow to pin the All-American White Meat Babyface and "steal" the belt? There isn't one.

What do you guys think? Why do you think the role of a heel is struggling? Is it struggling? Do I just need to can it and stop listening to old "rasslin" guys?

[cero2k]

i feel the opposite, Ross' idea of what a heel is shows that he's soo way behind and stuck with the product of old. Heels don't need to break rules, they just need to antagonize the fans and those who the fans support. look at Brock Lesnar, biggest heel in the industry today, does he break rules, not many more than a face would, he doesn't even need to cheat to win. Breaking the rules is not what makes a wrestler a heel, but breaking the rule and sticking it up on the fans and brag about not being caught, and actually defeating the faces and leaving the arena taunting the fans and keeping your heel heat. if we look at the top heels in the world today (Lesnar, Bucks, Adam Cole, Hijo del Perro Aguayo, Lashley), they don't focus on breaking rules, they're just better than the faces, they win their matches mostly clean and that pisses the fans off soo much, that's heel heat. It's like Punk, he wins matches because he's straightedge and that means he's better than you all.

the problem with heels today is with WWE, they can't see a normal heel having clean wins or being better wrestlers than the faces, they always have to be chicken shit coward heels, they always want to send the fan happy home, so they usually tend to kill whatever heel heat guys get during the night.

Having said that, i disagree that guys don't wanna be heels, I'm sure if given the option to the wrestlers, we would have more heels than faces. it's easier to work as a heel, you get a better moveset (at least in WWE), you're promos tend to make more sense, it's a dream position for a wrestler.

[badnewzxl]

And wwe started this entire idea with Austin. It's the same reason Kurt Angle got booed when he first arrived and Cena gets booed now; THE FANS DICTATE IT! The hero doesn't have to be a good guy anymore he just has to do the right thing. Therefore the heel doesn't need to be a bad guy he just needs to be in the way of the face. Our world no longer identifies well with ridged black and white characters, we crave complexity. The attitude era ended the days of the true babyfaces,

[Big Red Machine]

And wwe started this entire idea with Austin. It's the same reason Kurt Angle got booed when he first arrived and Cena gets booed now; THE FANS DICTATE IT! The hero doesn't have to be a good guy anymore he just has to do the right thing. Therefore the heel doesn't need to be a bad guy he just needs to be in the way of the face. Our world no longer identifies well with ridged black and white characters, we crave complexity. The attitude era ended the days of the true babyfaces,

I disagree with this idea that we "crave complexity." Yes, a complex character can be interesting... but I rarely see these characters as "complex." Bray Wyatt (when done well) can be a complex character. Same with Kane. Same with Punk. Raven was a complex character.
Being a tweener or a babyface who breaks rules or whatever does not make you complex.

Who are the most over guys in WWE right now? Cena and Dragon. Both are fairly straightforward babyfaces. Roman Reigns and Dean Ambrose are a little rougher around the edges, but not much. Rigid black and white works perfectly fine, so long as you show some personality.

[Big Red Machine]

Listening to The Ross Report and watching wrestling again with something vaguely resembling regularity has brought up an interesting question.

There's no denying that the heat heels get these days compared to, say, the "Golden Ages" is different and these days there are few talents I can think of that get truly over as a heel, and I wonder why. The answer I seem to find myself leaning towards is that nobody really wants to be heel anymore. Everyone seems to want to be babyface or some version of the tweener/antihero.

One of the reasons I hear is that heels don't cheat enough anymore because it's hard to. It's hard to because there's so few (kayfabe) rules now anymore. Count-outs for brawling outside, (the few remaining) illegal maneuvers are more slow, hitting with closed fists is legal, etc. It's impossible to break laws when there are no laws to be broken!

Another reason I seem to lean towards internally is that maybe far too many of these people are afraid to be heel. They don't want to have a crowd booing, heckling, insulting them or what have you, and maybe with the Attitude Era, Ruthless Aggression Era, etc. that we have glorified the tweener too much. Perhaps this sport needs more people who are trolls at heart.

I've had some pointed words from some fans about there being a difference between heel heat and, for lack of a better term, "X-Pac heat". I say there is NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER. Heat is heat. What is the actual difference between fans these days hating on, say, The Miz for being unworthy of being WWE champion and fans in the 70's wanting to lynch the heel who snuck a low blow to pin the All-American White Meat Babyface and "steal" the belt? There isn't one.

What do you guys think? Why do you think the role of a heel is struggling? Is it struggling? Do I just need to can it and stop listening to old "rasslin" guys?

i feel the opposite, Ross' idea of what a heel is shows that he's soo way behind and stuck with the product of old. Heels don't need to break rules, they just need to antagonize the fans and those who the fans support. look at Brock Lesnar, biggest heel in the industry today, does he break rules, not many more than a face would, he doesn't even need to cheat to win. Breaking the rules is not what makes a wrestler a heel, but breaking the rule and sticking it up on the fans and brag about not being caught, and actually defeating the faces and leaving the arena taunting the fans and keeping your heel heat. if we look at the top heels in the world today (Lesnar, Bucks, Adam Cole, Hijo del Perro Aguayo, Lashley), they don't focus on breaking rules, they're just better than the faces, they win their matches mostly clean and that pisses the fans off soo much, that's heel heat. It's like Punk, he wins matches because he's straightedge and that means he's better than you all.

the problem with heels today is with WWE, they can't see a normal heel having clean wins or being better wrestlers than the faces, they always have to be chicken shit coward heels, they always want to send the fan happy home, so they usually tend to kill whatever heel heat guys get during the night.

Having said that, i disagree that guys don't wanna be heels, I'm sure if given the option to the wrestlers, we would have more heels than faces. it's easier to work as a heel, you get a better moveset (at least in WWE), you're promos tend to make more sense, it's a dream position for a wrestler.

I agree with both of you. As I'm sure you all know, I am a huge fan of people following the rules. JR is absolutely right that the rules need to be enforced, because that's the only way's you'll ever get heat by breaking them. You need to teach your fans that rule-breaking is not okay, because if you don't, they won't get angry when someone does break the rules. I also applaud your ability to listen to JR's podcast because I find him to be obnoxiously condescending to the point where I just get annoyed, even if he is making a great point (which he often does).

That being said, Cero is 100% correct. There is no reason in the world why a heel can't get over by just being a HUGE dick. The problems is that many fans will cheer for people being dicks just because. The opposite does not apply to babyfaces, though. A babyface (except in extremely rare cases) cannot get over as a babyface by cheating or being a dick because that makes him/her unlikeable.
I also totally agree with Cero's point about WWE killing their own heels by not letting them win clean.

[kirbs2002]

Having said that, i disagree that guys don't wanna be heels, I'm sure if given the option to the wrestlers, we would have more heels than faces.

Do they want to be heels, or do they want to just be the "badass" and "cool" guy who's above the rules and does his own thing?

[Big Red Machine]

Having said that, i disagree that guys don't wanna be heels, I'm sure if given the option to the wrestlers, we would have more heels than faces.

Do they want to be heels, or do they want to just be the "badass" and "cool" guy who's above the rules and does his own thing?

I think that this is often more the case.
Of course, it might also have to do with wanting to be the one to call the match.