Impact Wrestling & OVW re-enter developmental agreement

[cero2k]

They could use guys like that in dark segments. The cameras are still rolling so Callis/D'Amore/Dreamer/Konnan can look at the tape and go over it with the guy, and you've still got a live crowd. Or why not farm these guys out to Dreamer or Callihan for their own promotions for this sort of thing?

One assumes that OVW is being paid by TNA for this, so it's not necessarily cutting costs. Also, I'm not sure that they can be prevented from signing elsewhere without an OVW contract (which I'm not sure OVW does) or a TNA contract (which will cost TNA money).

Impact has no dark segments, they would completely throw off their taping schedules which are already packed as they are. Why not Dreamer or Callihan? idk, why them? You'd be having the same arguments because i don't know of many great talents coming out of there.

I'm not assuming Impact is paying ovw, if anything else, maybe Impact pays for the training and that's all. And even if they are, they're surely not going to be paying as much money as it takes to have house shows or running their own school. A contract is a contract, it requires both companies to reach an agreement, if they sign someone, they'll have an employee and use as necessary. I really don't see a problem with any of this.

The combination of the two, but perhaps more OVW. A story like this comes off to me as "TNA wants a developmental territory... which is theoretically a good thing, but instead of talking to a school/promotion with a good track record nowadays like Glory Pro or A.R. Fox's school or PWX (all of which put on their own shows as well) they go to a school with no recent track record and that failed to produce anyone for them during their last run working together, because TNA is ignorant of who has been producing the most good talent recently and/or because that's the promotion run by their buddy... and being ignorant of who the good indy talent is, being fifteen years behind the times, nepotism, prizing something that used to be associated with WWE over more productive alternatives, and failing to learn from their past mistakes are all mistakes that I (and many others) have watched TNA make time and time again over the past fifteen years. I see something like this and think "oh G-d, they're doing it again."

that is a HUGE story that you're getting, this is what I mean when your bias is taking it a bit far. You are assuming waaay to much.

With the place it's in, I don't think Impact should be signing people who aren't TV-ready unless you've got a REALLY special case, at which point you can work out an individual deal with Al Snow or PWX or whoever to use that person on their TV after sending them to Lance or D'Amore or Les Thatcher to train. People can claim that the talent market will dry up with all of these companies signing people to deals, but that hasn't happened yet, and there are still a bunch of unsigned big indy names out there, plus a big young crop of guys from Europe and Mexico.

And they're not signing useless people, but that REALLY special one is already there with Hijo del Vikingo, and he could use the Americanization

SWA isn't a promotion. It's just a school. Lance doesn't run shows.

the idea was the same, I wish Impact could deal with other schools, but they're not all available/willing/a good pair

[Big Red Machine]

They could use guys like that in dark segments. The cameras are still rolling so Callis/D'Amore/Dreamer/Konnan can look at the tape and go over it with the guy, and you've still got a live crowd. Or why not farm these guys out to Dreamer or Callihan for their own promotions for this sort of thing?

One assumes that OVW is being paid by TNA for this, so it's not necessarily cutting costs. Also, I'm not sure that they can be prevented from signing elsewhere without an OVW contract (which I'm not sure OVW does) or a TNA contract (which will cost TNA money).

Impact has no dark segments, they would completely throw off their taping schedules which are already packed as they are. Why not Dreamer or Callihan? idk, why them? You'd be having the same arguments because i don't know of many great talents coming out of there.

The difference is that Dream and Callihan aren't running wrestling schools. I don't expect them (especially not Dreamer) to be developing talent so much as just using available wrestlers. If the idea is to get these guys seasoning, just sending them to Dreamer or Callihan would do the trick while avoiding some perception issue as well as create goodwill with whoever you're sending the guys to, plus you wo't have to pay OVW money.

I'm not assuming Impact is paying ovw, if anything else, maybe Impact pays for the training and that's all. And even if they are, they're surely not going to be paying as much money as it takes to have house shows or running their own school. A contract is a contract, it requires both companies to reach an agreement, if they sign someone, they'll have an employee and use as necessary. I really don't see a problem with any of this.

Considering that the original deal fell through because of issues with TNA not paying OVW, my guess is that this is a service that OVW wants payment for.

My point with the contract thing is that I don't think they can legally stop anyone in OVW from signing anywhere else unless they or OVW have that person/trainee under a contract already, so unless someone- either TNA or OVW- is going to be signing everyone they think might have potential to contracts, contracting them out as a "developmental system" doesn't actually accomplish anything for TNA that they couldn't have achieved by just keeping an eye on OVW's talent the way they probably did (and ROH/MLW/WWE/Gabe... and maybe even NJPW, LU, and AEW as well) before signing this deal. it seems like a change to the status quo that doens't benefit TNA, as they're either losing a bunch of money for contracts of people who mostly won't be the level of talent they need, or they're paying OVW money for stuff they could be (and maybe even are) already doing for free.

The combination of the two, but perhaps more OVW. A story like this comes off to me as "TNA wants a developmental territory... which is theoretically a good thing, but instead of talking to a school/promotion with a good track record nowadays like Glory Pro or A.R. Fox's school or PWX (all of which put on their own shows as well) they go to a school with no recent track record and that failed to produce anyone for them during their last run working together, because TNA is ignorant of who has been producing the most good talent recently and/or because that's the promotion run by their buddy... and being ignorant of who the good indy talent is, being fifteen years behind the times, nepotism, prizing something that used to be associated with WWE over more productive alternatives, and failing to learn from their past mistakes are all mistakes that I (and many others) have watched TNA make time and time again over the past fifteen years. I see something like this and think "oh G-d, they're doing it again."

that is a HUGE story that you're getting, this is what I mean when your bias is taking it a bit far. You are assuming waaay to much.

I'm not saying I don't have a bias in this. What I'm saying is that my bias is not some sort of baseless prejudice, but rather is an opinion of their abilities and M.O. formed by years of observing this company, including during times when it was under the leadership of some of the people who are currently in power there. It's like Inoki going around telling everyone that WWF was going to buy WCW in October 2000. No one believed him because it was Inoki and it was 2000 and by this point people had seen him make so many ridiculous claims that everyone assumed he was talking out of his ass. Maybe he had inside info or maybe he was just talking out of his ass and got lucky, but the fact that he was right does not mean that people were wrong to have serious doubts about the truth of his claim in the interim.
I hate to say it and I wish it wasn't the case, but at this point with TNA the assumption should be that if they are making a decision that appears to be a poor one, it probably is a poor decision. Once they start showing me a track record of good decisions (and especially if some of those good decisions are ones that initially appeared to be poor ones), I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

With the place it's in, I don't think Impact should be signing people who aren't TV-ready unless you've got a REALLY special case, at which point you can work out an individual deal with Al Snow or PWX or whoever to use that person on their TV after sending them to Lance or D'Amore or Les Thatcher to train. People can claim that the talent market will dry up with all of these companies signing people to deals, but that hasn't happened yet, and there are still a bunch of unsigned big indy names out there, plus a big young crop of guys from Europe and Mexico.

And they're not signing useless people, but that REALLY special one is already there with Hijo del Vikingo, and he could use the Americanization

So why not just sign the one guy, then send him around to D'Amore/Dreamer/Callihan/AAA/NOAH/anyone else you want to send him to on the indies to get seasoning? Why sign up with OVW?

SWA isn't a promotion. It's just a school. Lance doesn't run shows.

the idea was the same, I wish Impact could deal with other schools, but they're not all available/willing/a good pair

A school that is just a school doesn't have the same benefits to a wrestling promotion without a developmental system that a school with a promotion does. You're getting raw product rather than people who have an outlet to refine their characters over time.

[cero2k]

I'm not saying I don't have a bias in this. What I'm saying is that my bias is not some sort of baseless prejudice, but rather is an opinion of their abilities and M.O. formed by years of observing this company, including during times when it was under the leadership of some of the people who are currently in power there. It's like Inoki going around telling everyone that WWF was going to buy WCW in October 2000. No one believed him because it was Inoki and it was 2000 and by this point people had seen him make so many ridiculous claims that everyone assumed he was talking out of his ass. Maybe he had inside info or maybe he was just talking out of his ass and got lucky, but the fact that he was right does not mean that people were wrong to have serious doubts about the truth of his claim in the interim.
I hate to say it and I wish it wasn't the case, but at this point with TNA the assumption should be that if they are making a decision that appears to be a poor one, it probably is a poor decision. Once they start showing me a track record of good decisions (and especially if some of those good decisions are ones that initially appeared to be poor ones), I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

so it's confirmed that you have a bias against "TNA", not even their actors. Gabe could go there and take over and you'd still hate it because the name. Imagine if you felt that way about NXT's first years, or if you still judged NJPW like Inoki was still in the office like you seemingly judge Impact like if Russo and Dixie and Prichard were in the back. I'm sorry dude, but a bias here inherently makes your anti-Impact arguments weaker because we're not even talking about stories and angles, rather just bashing the company for doing anything.

So why not just sign the one guy, then send him around to D'Amore/Dreamer/Callihan/AAA/NOAH/anyone else you want to send him to on the indies to get seasoning? Why sign up with OVW?

at what point have we said that OVW is doing the signing? Even from the start i've been saying that Impact is not just going to absorb OVW talent, rather sending there who they want like they did with Godderz and the rest.

[Big Red Machine]

I'm not saying I don't have a bias in this. What I'm saying is that my bias is not some sort of baseless prejudice, but rather is an opinion of their abilities and M.O. formed by years of observing this company, including during times when it was under the leadership of some of the people who are currently in power there. It's like Inoki going around telling everyone that WWF was going to buy WCW in October 2000. No one believed him because it was Inoki and it was 2000 and by this point people had seen him make so many ridiculous claims that everyone assumed he was talking out of his ass. Maybe he had inside info or maybe he was just talking out of his ass and got lucky, but the fact that he was right does not mean that people were wrong to have serious doubts about the truth of his claim in the interim.
I hate to say it and I wish it wasn't the case, but at this point with TNA the assumption should be that if they are making a decision that appears to be a poor one, it probably is a poor decision. Once they start showing me a track record of good decisions (and especially if some of those good decisions are ones that initially appeared to be poor ones), I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

so it's confirmed that you have a bias against "TNA", not even their actors. Gabe could go there and take over and you'd still hate it because the name. Imagine if you felt that way about NXT's first years, or if you still judged NJPW like Inoki was still in the office like you seemingly judge Impact like if Russo and Dixie and Prichard were in the back. I'm sorry dude, but a bias here inherently makes your anti-Impact arguments weaker because we're not even talking about stories and angles, rather just bashing the company for doing anything.

And decisions that D'Amore made when he was in charge before. And decisions that D'Amore and Callis have made during this run. Who have they brought in that has been of any real consequence hadn't already made a name elsewhere? MAYBE Killer Kross, but that's about it. Everyone else they've brought in that hasn't made a name else where really just amounts to Kiera Hogan, who is mostly a midcarder involved in a silly sci-fi feud that doesn't mesh with anything else going on. The show is filled with way too much comedy, and even after years of proof that it doesn't work, they decided to take the main event of their biggest PPV of the year and try to convince us all that we were watching a shoot fight instead of just having a good wrestling match.
If they gave Gabe or CMJ or Triple H full control then I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but those are guys with a reputation for having an eye for talent.
As for the NXT comparison, you're forgetting that people did feel that way about NXT for a while, and it took nine months to a year for people to really catch on to it as something great. That's why no one remembers Rollins' run as champion or even most of Big E's. TNA has A LOT more bad will to wash away than NXT did, or even than Inokism-era New Japan did. Inoki was out of NJPW by 2006 but ti took people another five or six years to start paying attention to them/viewing them as competent again. Part of that was the stink of Inokism, but part of it was also mistakes that subsequent regimes made, like the relative disaster that was the USA tour in 2011.

I'm not disputing that the quality of the show has gone up from what it was, and people like you spreading the good word are what helps get people to pay attention to a real, sustained turnaround, but that doesn't mean that there isn't reason to be skeptical or worried when TNA makes what appears to be a foolish/counterproductive/nepotist move.

So why not just sign the one guy, then send him around to D'Amore/Dreamer/Callihan/AAA/NOAH/anyone else you want to send him to on the indies to get seasoning? Why sign up with OVW?

at what point have we said that OVW is doing the signing? Even from the start i've been saying that Impact is not just going to absorb OVW talent, rather sending there who they want like they did with Godderz and the rest.

I meant "so why should TNA sign up with OVW?" I wasn't saying that OVW signed Hijo del Vikingo.

[cero2k]

And decisions that D'Amore made when he was in charge before. And decisions that D'Amore and Callis have made during this run. Who have they brought in that has been of any real consequence hadn't already made a name elsewhere? MAYBE Killer Kross, but that's about it. Everyone else they've brought in that hasn't made a name else where really just amounts to Kiera Hogan, who is mostly a midcarder involved in a silly sci-fi feud that doesn't mesh with anything else going on. The show is filled with way too much comedy, and even after years of proof that it doesn't work, they decided to take the main event of their biggest PPV of the year and try to convince us all that we were watching a shoot fight instead of just having a good wrestling match.
If they gave Gabe or CMJ or Triple H full control then I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but those are guys with a reputation for having an eye for talent.
As for the NXT comparison, you're forgetting that people did feel that way about NXT for a while, and it took nine months to a year for people to really catch on to it as something great. That's why no one remembers Rollins' run as champion or even most of Big E's. TNA has A LOT more bad will to wash away than NXT did, or even than Inokism-era New Japan did. Inoki was out of NJPW by 2006 but ti took people another five or six years to start paying attention to them/viewing them as competent again. Part of that was the stink of Inokism, but part of it was also mistakes that subsequent regimes made, like the relative disaster that was the USA tour in 2011.

I'm not disputing that the quality of the show has gone up from what it was, and people like you spreading the good word are what helps get people to pay attention to a real, sustained turnaround, but that doesn't mean that there isn't reason to be skeptical or worried when TNA makes what appears to be a foolish/counterproductive/nepotist move.

It depends how big of a name you're asking for. Rascalz, Ace Austin, Santana, Ortiz, Kross, Jordynne Grace, Allie, Rosemary, Kiera Hogan, Fallah Bahh, they were all virtually unknown before joining unless you thoroughly follow the indies. Tessa, Crist Brothers, Ethan Page, Moose, or Scarlet Bordeaux were all 'known' as far as known in the internet wrestling community goes. That's the same argument we could make about NXT and hunter's 'eye for talent' that it's more like 'i have a lot of money' eye, where the big signings are at the level of a KUSHIDA or an Adam Cole.

Comedy and shoots, are you talking about WWE or Impact? If you're not into comedy or shooty promos or the sci-fy stories, that's fine, it's a matter of likes and dislikes, I wouldn't expect anyone to follow a promotion that is not of their liking, just like I don't follow CHIKARA or WWE; but it doesn't just make it bad or wrongly managed just because of that, especially because in those cases, Impact has made better use of the comedy/shooty/sci-fy. Austin Aries told us he hates Johnny, not that wrestling is fake.

So i'm not really sure what bad decisions has Don Callis and D'Amore done this run that puts them next to Dixie Carter and Vince Russo, other than a bias.

Not a lot of people if any at all compared either NXTs, it's was more of the perception that they were watching developmental wrestling, just like FCW. it didn't catch on because WWE fans aren't inherently into indie wrestling. The time it took was just the time it took for people to start tuning in or a buzz to start going because Hunter put a lot of money into signing indie darlings and he never looked back from that approach. It wouldn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that both nxt's were completely different things.

At this point, with how much you hate Impact, what are you even worried about if they make bad decisions? Last time we talked about this you straight up said that you wished they'd die already so nxt and roh could snatch up the talent. if you've turned around and accepted that they're actually getting better and that people are passing around the good word, then isn't the best thing to do to just be skeptical and wait and see, and not just shut down anything they do? We could be talking about what this relationship will look like, who they could use, what we could see,, make actual comparisons between the first run and this, except we're using all this time arguing why everything Impact does is wrong

[Big Red Machine]

And decisions that D'Amore made when he was in charge before. And decisions that D'Amore and Callis have made during this run. Who have they brought in that has been of any real consequence hadn't already made a name elsewhere? MAYBE Killer Kross, but that's about it. Everyone else they've brought in that hasn't made a name else where really just amounts to Kiera Hogan, who is mostly a midcarder involved in a silly sci-fi feud that doesn't mesh with anything else going on. The show is filled with way too much comedy, and even after years of proof that it doesn't work, they decided to take the main event of their biggest PPV of the year and try to convince us all that we were watching a shoot fight instead of just having a good wrestling match.
If they gave Gabe or CMJ or Triple H full control then I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but those are guys with a reputation for having an eye for talent.
As for the NXT comparison, you're forgetting that people did feel that way about NXT for a while, and it took nine months to a year for people to really catch on to it as something great. That's why no one remembers Rollins' run as champion or even most of Big E's. TNA has A LOT more bad will to wash away than NXT did, or even than Inokism-era New Japan did. Inoki was out of NJPW by 2006 but ti took people another five or six years to start paying attention to them/viewing them as competent again. Part of that was the stink of Inokism, but part of it was also mistakes that subsequent regimes made, like the relative disaster that was the USA tour in 2011.

I'm not disputing that the quality of the show has gone up from what it was, and people like you spreading the good word are what helps get people to pay attention to a real, sustained turnaround, but that doesn't mean that there isn't reason to be skeptical or worried when TNA makes what appears to be a foolish/counterproductive/nepotist move.

It depends how big of a name you're asking for. Rascalz, Ace Austin, Santana, Ortiz, Kross, Jordynne Grace, Allie, Rosemary, Kiera Hogan, Fallah Bahh, they were all virtually unknown before joining unless you thoroughly follow the indies. Tessa, Crist Brothers, Ethan Page, Moose, or Scarlet Bordeaux were all 'known' as far as known in the internet wrestling community goes. That's the same argument we could make about NXT and hunter's 'eye for talent' that it's more like 'i have a lot of money' eye, where the big signings are at the level of a KUSHIDA or an Adam Cole.

The kind of guy I'm talking about is someone like Fallah Bahh. Someone you have to follow low-level indies to know and recognize. Once someone has worked PWG or Beyond or WWN (minus ACW) someone else has already found them for you. In other words, someone who gives me faith that they could actually find that diamond in the rough of the OVW guys that might make such a deal worth whatever TNA is paying. Of the guys you listed, only Fallah Bahh really qualifies. MAYBE Ace Austin, depending on how nice we want to be to CZW, and I don't think either of those guys are particularly good. They're serviceable, but that's about it (especially when you compare them to most of the other names on your list).
You're right that Hunter doesn't deserve credit for guys like Adam Cole, but he does deserve some credit for guys like Lars Sullivan, Street Profits, Bianca Belair, The Revival, Velveteen Dream, Sasha Banks, Rusev, Chad Gable, Enzo, etc.

Comedy and shoots, are you talking about WWE or Impact? If you're not into comedy or shooty promos or the sci-fy stories, that's fine, it's a matter of likes and dislikes, I wouldn't expect anyone to follow a promotion that is not of their liking, just like I don't follow CHIKARA or WWE; but it doesn't just make it bad or wrongly managed just because of that, especially because in those cases, Impact has made better use of the comedy/shooty/sci-fy. Austin Aries told us he hates Johnny, not that wrestling is fake.

And they tried to make us think they were having a "real" fight in a way that exposed everything else on the show. If they had had a UWFi-style match that would have been one thing, but that's not what they did.
Based on the clips I've scene, comedic backstage segments take up way too much time on the show. Doing comedy is fine in moderation. TNA goes overboard.

So i'm not really sure what bad decisions has Don Callis and D'Amore done this run that puts them next to Dixie Carter and Vince Russo, other than a bias.

This run had the Aries/Mundo stuff, but do you remember what the world title scene was like during D'Amore's run as booker? There were times when it was hard to tell the difference between him and Dusty (who he took over for).

Not a lot of people if any at all compared either NXTs, it's was more of the perception that they were watching developmental wrestling, just like FCW. it didn't catch on because WWE fans aren't inherently into indie wrestling. The time it took was just the time it took for people to start tuning in or a buzz to start going because Hunter put a lot of money into signing indie darlings and he never looked back from that approach. It wouldn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that both nxt's were completely different things.

It's not "WWE fans" that are people I'm talking about. It's the "indy" fans who theoretically should be into such a thing. It took months of Lance Storm telling people "this is actually a really good show" to get people to check it out... and that includes people who were heavily into the end of the FCW run with the big Rollins/Ambrose angle.
Look at the those early NXT tapings: Rollins, Ambrose, Cesaro, Tyson Kidd, Usos, Chris Hero, Richie Steamboat, Paige, Shaul Guerrero, Sterling James Keenan, Xavier Woods, Brodie Lee, Emma... and no one would watch it because of the stigma of the other NXT.

At this point, with how much you hate Impact, what are you even worried about if they make bad decisions? Last time we talked about this you straight up said that you wished they'd die already so nxt and roh could snatch up the talent. if you've turned around and accepted that they're actually getting better and that people are passing around the good word, then isn't the best thing to do to just be skeptical and wait and see, and not just shut down anything they do? We could be talking about what this relationship will look like, who they could use, what we could see,, make actual comparisons between the first run and this, except we're using all this time arguing why everything Impact does is wrong

Because I want there to be more good wrestling for me to watch. Yes. They have gotten better. But nowhere near where I'd hoped they would be. They done a passable to decent job of using a good core of talented wrestlers, but passable is not going to get me to watch them, and is not going to get most other people to watch them, either. The heavyweight division is good, and some of the tag division stuff is pretty good, but the X-Division is minuscule, as is the women's division because half of that got turned into some goofy sci-fi show when I tuned in to watch wrestling. I find a lot of the characters to be way too over the top, and the matches are too short. They do PPVs on a less frequent basis than ROH, have one more hour of TV time a week than ROH, have fewer titles than ROH, and might even have a smaller roster than ROH. There is no reason for ROH's matches to be longer.

We have been talking about what this relationship will look like. That's my reason for thinking it's a bad move. The little evidence that we have and the things we can infer logically (such as under what circumstances such a deal would be of value) lead me to believe that if TNA is paying OVW for this then it's a bad move because it's not worth the money or the perception problems (even if those perception problems are only prohibitive to a small portion of the potential audience).