https://www.pwtorch.com/site/2021/05/28 ... wrestling/


BY ZACK HEYDORN, PWTORCH ASSISTANT EDITOR

May 28, 2021

The other, bigger, forbidden door may be set to open.

The Wrestling Observer is reporting that WWE is having talks with New Japan Pro Wrestling on a potential partnership. According to the report, WWE President Nick Khan is leading the talks with the end goal being WWE becoming New Japan’s official American partner.

The report indicates that the conversations date back to March and that a deal would include WWE sending top stars to work for NJPW. At this moment, there isn’t definitive detail on where talks stand or what specific progress has been made.

Um.... WHAT THE F*CK?!

I'm already fantasizing about all the extra free time i'll have for not covering the G1 and the BOSJ, as I will most likely stop following NJPW if they pair up with the Fed. I've been meaning to re-read Sandman and Transmetropolitan, maybe work out a bit more.

cero2k wrote: ↑May 28th, '21, 11:24 I'm already fantasizing about all the extra free time i'll have for not covering the G1 and the BOSJ, as I will most likely stop following NJPW if they pair up with the Fed. I've been meaning to re-read Sandman and Transmetropolitan, maybe work out a bit more.

I'm telling you, bro: wXw. You can go through Vimeo so WWE doesn't get any money, and you can just watch the pre-WWE stuff (2016-2018 is spectacular!)

Also, I always envisioned you as the kind of guy who had a bucket list of 90s Japanese stuff he never got around to watching. You don't have a list Hashimoto or Kobashi or Toyota stuff sitting around that you've been meaning to watch?

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 28th, '21, 11:47

I'm telling you, bro: wXw. You can go through Vimeo so WWE doesn't get any money, and you can just watch the pre-WWE stuff (2016-2018 is spectacular!)

Also, I always envisioned you as the kind of guy who had a bucket list of 90s Japanese stuff he never got around to watching. You don't have a list Hashimoto or Kobashi or Toyota stuff sitting around that you've been meaning to watch?

haha i'm trying to work out and you remind me of my to do list. I am indeed watching a lot of All Japan Women's right now. Realistically, I'd probably just end up getting into Dragon Gate full time

We live in a weird era and Tony Khan is a really interesting promoter.

So Tony Khan IS the forbidden door™(?)? Or whoever's working on AEW's SoCiAl MeDiA just terrible at phrasing simple sentences?

Thelone wrote: ↑May 28th, '21, 19:24 So Tony Khan IS the forbidden door™(?)? Or whoever's working on AEW's SoCiAl MeDiA just terrible at phrasing simple sentences?

he's always been the forbidden door, he's been referred as that ever since he started showing up on Impact

That was kind of petty. He had damn sure better hope that WWE doesn't pull this deal off or he'll look REALLY bad.

cero2k wrote: ↑May 28th, '21, 22:40

Thelone wrote: ↑May 28th, '21, 19:24 So Tony Khan IS the forbidden door™(?)? Or whoever's working on AEW's SoCiAl MeDiA just terrible at phrasing simple sentences?

he's always been the forbidden door, he's been referred as that ever since he started showing up on Impact

I thought the Forbidden Door was the concept of wrestlers from another promotion appearing on your TV. If Tony himself is the "Forbidden Door" where does the name come from and what the hell does it mean?

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 29th, '21, 19:48 That was kind of petty. He had damn sure better hope that WWE doesn't pull this deal off or he'll look REALLY bad.

Of the deal goes down, looking bad will be in the lower tier of 'bad things'

cero2k wrote: ↑May 29th, '21, 20:04

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 29th, '21, 19:48 That was kind of petty. He had damn sure better hope that WWE doesn't pull this deal off or he'll look REALLY bad.

Of the deal goes down, looking bad will be in the lower tier of 'bad things'

For AEW? Not really? They haven't really gotten much out of this relationship yet, and I don't think they ever really will, simply due to the way that New Japan behaves and some of the inherent logistics.

- We know New Japan won't let any of their big-name talent do jobs. As a result, the best we can hope for is a match that might be great, but AEW won't get too much out of it other than maybe helping a buyrate, and at the cost of a big AEW name doing the job. There are only so many times you can run the "AEW up-and-comers gets elevated by a strong performance in defeat against Okada/Naito/Ibushi/White/Tanaashi/Ospreay/whoever" card before it starts to feel stale. Probably no more than two. Not that you can't make those two count with guys like Adam Page, Jungle Boy, and Darby, but the point is that once it becomes clear that that's what is going to happen when a big AEW name comes to New Japan, doing it becomes less effective.
- Because of this, if someone is going to be effective (and this applies to ROH, CMLL, and others, too), they are going to need to be around for a while so you can build a story up with them, and I don't think many wrestlers would want to either spend four months living in a foreign country or fly back and forth across the Pacific Ocean every week.




But the point is that Tony doing this is petty bullsh*t. It's the sort of crap TNA used to do all the time (and Bischoff before them) and got shat on for, and the same should happen to Tony.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 29th, '21, 21:03

For AEW? Not really? They haven't really gotten much out of this relationship yet, and I don't think they ever really will, simply due to the way that New Japan behaves and some of the inherent logistics.

- We know New Japan won't let any of their big-name talent do jobs. As a result, the best we can hope for is a match that might be great, but AEW won't get too much out of it other than maybe helping a buyrate, and at the cost of a big AEW name doing the job. There are only so many times you can run the "AEW up-and-comers gets elevated by a strong performance in defeat against Okada/Naito/Ibushi/White/Tanaashi/Ospreay/whoever" card before it starts to feel stale. Probably no more than two. Not that you can't make those two count with guys like Adam Page, Jungle Boy, and Darby, but the point is that once it becomes clear that that's what is going to happen when a big AEW name comes to New Japan, doing it becomes less effective.
- Because of this, if someone is going to be effective (and this applies to ROH, CMLL, and others, too), they are going to need to be around for a while so you can build a story up with them, and I don't think many wrestlers would want to either spend four months living in a foreign country or fly back and forth across the Pacific Ocean every week.




But the point is that Tony doing this is petty bullsh*t. It's the sort of crap TNA used to do all the time (and Bischoff before them) and got shat on for, and the same should happen to Tony.

You're not seeing the big picture between these company partnerships, you're thinking of shows and booking and wins and loses.

What is the one big thing that AEW has over WWE? It is appealing to the Pro Wrestlers, capital P capita W. Up until today, if WWE really really wants to keep someone, they just offer them a bunch of money, some creative freedom, and a title run or two, but what a Pro Wrestler sees in AEW, is all of that, and the possibility to work in NJPW, or any other company in the world, from GCW to NJPW.

If WWE and NJPW make a partnership, AEW loses the appeal that game changing guys like Bryan Danielson are looking for. Dragon is not looking to get creative with his character, or get Khan to buy The Final Countdown for him, Dragon wants to wrestle at a high level, and WWE is trying to make it so that they are the only ones in the US with that power. WWE doesn't give a single fuck about NJPW, they're trying to once again, cut off the competition from having something better than them, that and get their foot in Japan like they did with the UK, dry the scene up by eating a bunch of talent for a third rate show

I don't think it's petty from Khan, I think it's way more calculated than you want it to be

cero2k wrote: ↑May 29th, '21, 21:42

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 29th, '21, 21:03

For AEW? Not really? They haven't really gotten much out of this relationship yet, and I don't think they ever really will, simply due to the way that New Japan behaves and some of the inherent logistics.

- We know New Japan won't let any of their big-name talent do jobs. As a result, the best we can hope for is a match that might be great, but AEW won't get too much out of it other than maybe helping a buyrate, and at the cost of a big AEW name doing the job. There are only so many times you can run the "AEW up-and-comers gets elevated by a strong performance in defeat against Okada/Naito/Ibushi/White/Tanaashi/Ospreay/whoever" card before it starts to feel stale. Probably no more than two. Not that you can't make those two count with guys like Adam Page, Jungle Boy, and Darby, but the point is that once it becomes clear that that's what is going to happen when a big AEW name comes to New Japan, doing it becomes less effective.
- Because of this, if someone is going to be effective (and this applies to ROH, CMLL, and others, too), they are going to need to be around for a while so you can build a story up with them, and I don't think many wrestlers would want to either spend four months living in a foreign country or fly back and forth across the Pacific Ocean every week.




But the point is that Tony doing this is petty bullsh*t. It's the sort of crap TNA used to do all the time (and Bischoff before them) and got shat on for, and the same should happen to Tony.

You're not seeing the big picture between these company partnerships, you're thinking of shows and booking and wins and loses.

What is the one big thing that AEW has over WWE? It is appealing to the Pro Wrestlers, capital P capita W. Up until today, if WWE really really wants to keep someone, they just offer them a bunch of money, some creative freedom, and a title run or two, but what a Pro Wrestler sees in AEW, is all of that, and the possibility to work in NJPW, or any other company in the world, from GCW to NJPW.

If WWE and NJPW make a partnership, AEW loses the appeal that game changing guys like Bryan Danielson are looking for. Dragon is not looking to get creative with his character, or get Khan to buy The Final Countdown for him, Dragon wants to wrestle at a high level, and WWE is trying to make it so that they are the only ones in the US with that power. WWE doesn't give a single fuck about NJPW, they're trying to once again, cut off the competition from having something better than them, that and get their foot in Japan like they did with the UK, dry the scene up by eating a bunch of talent for a third rate show

For AEW's own good, they shouldn't be the guys making "and you can wrestle against all of the awesome wrestlers in New Japan" as the business pitch. What you are describing New Japan as is what AEW should be trying to be themselves. They should be trying to be the Destination Promotion where you get to work talented wrestlers in tons of different styles.


Lance Storm actually had an interesting take on the benefits for both sides in a potential WWE-NJPW relationship. His pitch for what WWE gets out of it is similar to what you're saying AEW gets out of it. For NJPW, his thought process is that New Japan isn't going to send the Okadas of the world over to WWE, and that WWE probably doesn't really want them. What New Japan gets is a place to send guys on excursion where they will be able to work more than any other promotion, because WWE runs more shows that anyone else (plus New Japan could get occasional appearances from guys like AJ, Balor, Dragon, Cesaro, Ricochet, etc.)

cero2k wrote: ↑May 29th, '21, 21:42 I don't think it's petty from Khan, I think it's way more calculated than you want it to be

Whether or not it's calculated has nothing to do with whether or not it's petty.

cero2k wrote: ↑May 28th, '21, 12:17

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 28th, '21, 11:47

I'm telling you, bro: wXw. You can go through Vimeo so WWE doesn't get any money, and you can just watch the pre-WWE stuff (2016-2018 is spectacular!)

Also, I always envisioned you as the kind of guy who had a bucket list of 90s Japanese stuff he never got around to watching. You don't have a list Hashimoto or Kobashi or Toyota stuff sitting around that you've been meaning to watch?

haha i'm trying to work out and you remind me of my to do list. I am indeed watching a lot of All Japan Women's right now. Realistically, I'd probably just end up getting into Dragon Gate full time

Alright I'm back.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 29th, '21, 23:56

For AEW's own good, they shouldn't be the guys making "and you can wrestle against all of the awesome wrestlers in New Japan" as the business pitch. What you are describing New Japan as is what AEW should be trying to be themselves. They should be trying to be the Destination Promotion where you get to work talented wrestlers in tons of different styles.


Lance Storm actually had an interesting take on the benefits for both sides in a potential WWE-NJPW relationship. His pitch for what WWE gets out of it is similar to what you're saying AEW gets out of it. For NJPW, his thought process is that New Japan isn't going to send the Okadas of the world over to WWE, and that WWE probably doesn't really want them. What New Japan gets is a place to send guys on excursion where they will be able to work more than any other promotion, because WWE runs more shows that anyone else (plus New Japan could get occasional appearances from guys like AJ, Balor, Dragon, Cesaro, Ricochet, etc.)

What makes you think that is AEW's business pitch? Nowhere am I saying that NJPW is where you have the talent wrestlers, nor is AEW saying that. AEW IS the promotion where you fight the top talent in the US, AEW IS ALSO the promotion that allows you to pursuit over projects, whether is a GCW bloodsport show, or a NJPW Wrestle Kingdom one. AEW doesn't need to bring it up because we, and most definitely the wrestlers, already know it.

Maybe Lance should take a trip to the LA Dojo, or at least watch some NJPW for once and realize that NJPW sending guys on excursion to WWE would be the stupidest move for NJPW. They would unlearn everything that they were taught in the New Japan Dojo and only learn to pose on the ramp for their entrances.

cero2k wrote: ↑May 31st, '21, 00:24

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 29th, '21, 23:56

For AEW's own good, they shouldn't be the guys making "and you can wrestle against all of the awesome wrestlers in New Japan" as the business pitch. What you are describing New Japan as is what AEW should be trying to be themselves. They should be trying to be the Destination Promotion where you get to work talented wrestlers in tons of different styles.


Lance Storm actually had an interesting take on the benefits for both sides in a potential WWE-NJPW relationship. His pitch for what WWE gets out of it is similar to what you're saying AEW gets out of it. For NJPW, his thought process is that New Japan isn't going to send the Okadas of the world over to WWE, and that WWE probably doesn't really want them. What New Japan gets is a place to send guys on excursion where they will be able to work more than any other promotion, because WWE runs more shows that anyone else (plus New Japan could get occasional appearances from guys like AJ, Balor, Dragon, Cesaro, Ricochet, etc.)

What makes you think that is AEW's business pitch? Nowhere am I saying that NJPW is where you have the talent wrestlers, nor is AEW saying that. AEW IS the promotion where you fight the top talent in the US, AEW IS ALSO the promotion that allows you to pursuit over projects, whether is a GCW bloodsport show, or a NJPW Wrestle Kingdom one. AEW doesn't need to bring it up because we, and most definitely the wrestlers, already know it.

I'm saying that AEW shouldn't have to let people go do Bloodsport of Joey Janela deathmatch show because if they think that stuff is important, they should be doing it. If someone wants to do a Bloodsport-style match then AEW should book them a program for it in AEW. AEW shouldn't be saying "we'll let you go to the place where you can face big-name Japanese talent or Mexican talent. They should be trying to sign those guys (like they've done with the women's division). AEW is a position where they don't have to be what ROH and RevPro have been to New Japan.

cero2k wrote: ↑May 31st, '21, 00:24 Maybe Lance should take a trip to the LA Dojo, or at least watch some NJPW for once and realize that NJPW sending guys on excursion to WWE would be the stupidest move for NJPW. They would unlearn everything that they were taught in the New Japan Dojo and only learn to pose on the ramp for their entrances.

His point is that getting matches in is important, and that you can learn a different style. New Japan drills their fundamentals in pretty well. I don't think anyone will forget anything if they are taught WWE's style. And let's be honest. Some of these guys in New Japan would benefit from lessons in entrance posing.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 31st, '21, 00:41 I'm saying that AEW shouldn't have to let people go do Bloodsport of Joey Janela deathmatch show because if they think that stuff is important, they should be doing it. If someone wants to do a Bloodsport-style match then AEW should book them a program for it in AEW. AEW shouldn't be saying "we'll let you go to the place where you can face big-name Japanese talent or Mexican talent. They should be trying to sign those guys (like they've done with the women's division). AEW is a position where they don't have to be what ROH and RevPro have been to New Japan.

You have a really WWE/corporate mentality, and I have no idea where you're getting these thoughts that they only allow Mox to do Bloodsport because they think it's important. AEW just offers you the freedom to do things outside of AEW as long as it doesn't directly compete with AEW, and even then, they're allowing people to work Impact and NJPW Strong. They're not into monopolizing all talent and styles into one single show. In a way, they're trying to encourage a healthier industry.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 31st, '21, 00:41 His point is that getting matches in is important, and that you can learn a different style. New Japan drills their fundamentals in pretty well. I don't think anyone will forget anything if they are taught WWE's style. And let's be honest. Some of these guys in New Japan would benefit from lessons in entrance posing.

NJPW already books the YLs in way more matches than a lot of people in WWE. NXT doesn't do the small house show stuff anymore, and surely, Uemura wouldn't get booked on every single NXT show to make up for it. As for styles, you're not gonna learn styles in WWE, they're all thought the same style. I know Lance tries to find both sides of the argument, but this one is weak. It's been a couple of weeks that he just sounds like someone that is really hoping WWE picks him up again.
Yeah, maybe some NJPW guys could benefit from learning how to pose, the least important thing in wrestling, but if that's the one thing that WWE can teach your guys, then they really have nothing to offer. Hell, give me a visa and I'll live in japan and teach them how to pose for 5000yen an hour.

cero2k wrote: ↑Jun 3rd, '21, 12:36

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 31st, '21, 00:41 I'm saying that AEW shouldn't have to let people go do Bloodsport of Joey Janela deathmatch show because if they think that stuff is important, they should be doing it. If someone wants to do a Bloodsport-style match then AEW should book them a program for it in AEW. AEW shouldn't be saying "we'll let you go to the place where you can face big-name Japanese talent or Mexican talent. They should be trying to sign those guys (like they've done with the women's division). AEW is a position where they don't have to be what ROH and RevPro have been to New Japan.

You have a really WWE/corporate mentality, and I have no idea where you're getting these thoughts that they only allow Mox to do Bloodsport because they think it's important. AEW just offers you the freedom to do things outside of AEW as long as it doesn't directly compete with AEW, and even then, they're allowing people to work Impact and NJPW Strong. They're not into monopolizing all talent and styles into one single show. In a way, they're trying to encourage a healthier industry.

I never said they only let Mox do Bloodspot because they think it's important. What I'm saying is that if AEW thinks that allowing guys to work Bloodsport-style matches (or matches with Lucha rules or deathmatches or European rounds or wahtever) is going to be something that will help them attract and keep talent, they should be finding ways to book those matches in AEW. And that wouldn't be "monopolizing" a style. There is nothing keeping anyone else from running the same style on their own shows because AEW (or WWE, or whoever else) would be doing it on their TV.

It's not about monopolizing talent. It's about the company protecting the investment they have made in the talent's future. WWE used to let people work indies. TNA, too. But they stopped because 1) they started running more house shows and needed their talent to be working their own shows, and 2) people started getting hurt.

I also don't buy the "healthier industry" argument. We heard for years that WWE signing up talent was going to "kill the indies" and it didn't happen. In fact, the opposite happened. Indies got stronger, with more new stars emerging. Before the pandemic indies were drawing better than before NXT became a thing, indy wrestlers were getting paid more and treated better by promoters, there were more indies, more names, more people coming in from all corners of the world (or Americans being able to find their own niches overseas like Alexander James in Germany or Chase Owens in Japan), more non-North American promotions being bigger deals... and that's all with not just WWE (and New Japan and AEW) gobbling up talent, but with more midsize companies (ROH, TNA, MLW) than we've ever had before. The indies will be fine whether or not they are able to book AEW-contract wrestlers.

cero2k wrote: ↑Jun 3rd, '21, 12:36

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 31st, '21, 00:41 His point is that getting matches in is important, and that you can learn a different style. New Japan drills their fundamentals in pretty well. I don't think anyone will forget anything if they are taught WWE's style. And let's be honest. Some of these guys in New Japan would benefit from lessons in entrance posing.

NJPW already books the YLs in way more matches than a lot of people in WWE. NXT doesn't do the small house show stuff anymore, and surely, Uemura wouldn't get booked on every single NXT show to make up for it. As for styles, you're not gonna learn styles in WWE, they're all thought the same style. I know Lance tries to find both sides of the argument, but this one is weak. It's been a couple of weeks that he just sounds like someone that is really hoping WWE picks him up again.
Yeah, maybe some NJPW guys could benefit from learning how to pose, the least important thing in wrestling, but if that's the one thing that WWE can teach your guys, then they really have nothing to offer. Hell, give me a visa and I'll live in japan and teach them how to pose for 5000yen an hour.

They stopped the Grapefruit Loop shows for COVID. I'm sure they'll be back.

Yes, NJPW books the Young Lions in more matches, but their move-set is heavily restricted. NJPW is trying to drill the fundamentals into their trainees, and they do an excellent job of it.

If WWE makes a deal with New Japan where their job is to teach the Young Lions different styles, the Young Lions will learn different styles. Look at the list of PC coaches: Norman Smiley, Hideki Suzuki, Fit Finlay, Robbie Brookside, Albert, Sara Del Rey, Ace Steel, Steve Corino, Sonjay Dutt. They're going to learn some sh*t.
Yes, the main roster's style feels the same, but that is less true in NXT, and even on the main roster, someone seems to have recognized a problem, because if they did, they wouldn't have sent Dijak and Keith Lee and all of them down to those "big-man classes" that everyone was so outraged over a few months ago.


And before you dismiss posing as unimportant, remember that two of NJPW's top guys (Okada and Naito) got over because of a move and a pose. It was that stupid pose that got Naito over. He's been doing that since before Destino was a thing. That's why Naito is over to a level that someone like Sanada (who I think is a better worker) isn't.