• How do we feel about NXT Callups?

I ask "How do we feel" because I can see two sides of an emergent argument about how current NXT call ups are happening.

On one hand, you have the post-Mania callups. I personally prefer this, because post-Mania is like the start of a new "season" of a sport. Guys and gals who debut here have as much a chance to make an impact as guys who have been on the roster for years and years. But, the con of this is that there's no surprise in it, and it feels like a factory, with post-Mania just another step on the assembly line.

On the other, you have what seems to be more in vogue now, which is more sporadic call ups. I can see the advantage of these, as it's more surprising, and gets people to eye the product with more curiosity during a time when they wouldn't (Kevin Owens' call up springs to mind). But, in the current crop, with guys like Black, Ciampa, Johnny, and Ricochet, what can they possibly build to a month before Mania that has any meaning whatsoever? If they'd held off till after Mania, they would've had as much screen time as anyone else in the new "season".

Where do you stand? Does one have more merit than the other?

to start off, I'm completely against in just debuting a bunch of people together, and debuting them with short to nill backstary or any build other than a few minute video and having to take the commentaries' opinion as word. Owens felt special because he came in alone and kicked ass, not because he was part of the post-WM DLC. I just don't see ANY allure in any of them, they're just part of the bunch because they do what everyone else does. There is only ONE reason why you would ever debut a bunch of people together -- An invasion.

The introduction of this new set of guys gives me the impression that Vince got bored with the previous group. I feel that he brought up all the guys he saw and he liked, and none of them made noise, so now he agreed to ask Hunter 'who your top guys are?' during dinner, and voila! now they're here.

Ricochet I think had the only good debut tonight, his insertion to Balor's story is completely random, but it works.

Gargano and Johnny, match aside (hey! remember 2018!?), was bad. Can we all agree that Ciampa is the biggest heel in ALL the company? and he was a fucking babyface! He's the NXT champ and he's a tag team guy here. Owens as champ came in and slapped Cena in the face, Ciampa as champ came in and fought...the revival. I just get zero thought on bringing in these guys with something to do. This is 'what worked for NXT?' oh yeah, that one feud, let's do it, no need to intro anything. This is Bayley all over again.

which brings me to the one that hurt me the most. Aleister Black

Remember the dark vignettes and his first rise from the underworld? remember what a big deal was when Dream pushed Black so much that he lost his composure and talked for the first time? Michael Cole introduced Black as the moody Aleister Black. He isn't moody, he's in perfect control of his emotions, that's why he's so precise, and that is his advantage over his enemies. This debut and commentary completely killed that dark allure and presence he had. His entrance was to a backdrop of empty seats, bored fans, ONE excited guy, and you could just see all the mechanical shit to lift him up, if you can't hide his little lift thing, then I hate to say it, don't do it at all. Aleister Black is just another guy from the bunch now. Get ready for weeks and weeks of Cole telling you that his life story is in his tattoos, because Black mentioned it in one promo months ago.

I’ll begin with this- the crowd was dead all night for everything, so crowd reaction may not be the best bar to gauge successes on.

Now as a fan, I legit just about had a stroke when I saw that they were all going to be on RAW. I don’t follow NXT as much as I should but I love all 4 of these guys (especially Ricochet) so seeing the possibilities of main roster matches was tantalizing for me to say the least. Finn Balor v Ricochet? Seth Rollins v Johnny Gargano? These are matches I never knew I needed in my life until the possibility showed up.

Breaking it down a little bit once my excitement has died down, it stinks to high hell of desperation. Like they know they’re running out of compelling characters and rather than spend the time to carefully reconstruct them, they just throw new guys into the mix and let the novelty carry them for a bit until the same damn thing happens. I can’t see long term things happening with any of them. I would love to see something like McIntyre v Black, basically for who is the biggest and best badass on RAW, or something that works with their characters from NXT... but from past experiences, it doesn’t seem like anyone even knows what those were, nevermind how to continue to develop them in meaningful and coherent ways.

As I get more into writing fiction on my own time, the more important character development becomes for me, and the more WWE’s utter failure to do this drives me mental.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 10:43 to start off, I'm completely against in just debuting a bunch of people together, and debuting them with short to nill backstary or any build other than a few minute video and having to take the commentaries' opinion as word. Owens felt special because he came in alone and kicked ass, not because he was part of the post-WM DLC. I just don't see ANY allure in any of them, they're just part of the bunch because they do what everyone else does. There is only ONE reason why you would ever debut a bunch of people together -- An invasion.

The introduction of this new set of guys gives me the impression that Vince got bored with the previous group. I feel that he brought up all the guys he saw and he liked, and none of them made noise, so now he agreed to ask Hunter 'who your top guys are?' during dinner, and voila! now they're here.

That's fair

Gargano and Johnny, match aside (hey! remember 2018!?), was bad. Can we all agree that Ciampa is the biggest heel in ALL the company? and he was a fucking babyface! He's the NXT champ and he's a tag team guy here. Owens as champ came in and slapped Cena in the face, Ciampa as champ came in and fought...the revival. I just get zero thought on bringing in these guys with something to do. This is 'what worked for NXT?' oh yeah, that one feud, let's do it, no need to intro anything. This is Bayley all over again.

Again, completely fair point, but I'm actually willing to give this the benefit of the doubt. Partially because I liked DIY as a tag team and I'm glad they're getting a main roster run as one. One of my main concerns with debuting Ciampa or Gargano on the main roster was that one guy would just immediately attack the other a la when Ciampa returned from injury and we'd just start back again, with weeks of "here's what happened on NXT" filler. The fact that they're starting as a tag team means they can tell a different story in a different environment.

which brings me to the one that hurt me the most. Aleister Black

Yeah, that one was bad. But I think Black will be like Ricochet in that he'll get over on in-ring stuff alone. I wasn't entirely sold on the elaborate entrance. But what DID sell me was when he kicked a running Hideo Itami, knocked him out, and just sat down. That kind of stuff is what sold me on Black, and if they give him the platform to do that, he'll get over, believe me.

Serujuunin wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 11:11 I would love to see something like McIntyre v Black,

You might be on to something. Braun will need two partners to wrestle Baron and his friends at Mania.....

NWK2000 wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 11:16
Serujuunin wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 11:11 I would love to see something like McIntyre v Black,
You might be on to something. Braun will need two partners to wrestle Baron and his friends at Mania.....

Oh god. Both of these guys are better than that though. So is Braun to be fair. This whole bit sucks.

Serujuunin wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 11:17
NWK2000 wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 11:16
Serujuunin wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 11:11 I would love to see something like McIntyre v Black,
You might be on to something. Braun will need two partners to wrestle Baron and his friends at Mania.....
Oh god. Both of these guys are better than that though. So is Braun to be fair. This whole bit sucks.

I mean yeah, but it's been an inevitability that there will be a multi man match at Mania lower on the main card. At the very least, Black will hit the Black Mass, Richochet will get his 630 in and move on to other things after Mania.

NWK2000 wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 11:12
Gargano and Johnny, match aside (hey! remember 2018!?), was bad. Can we all agree that Ciampa is the biggest heel in ALL the company? and he was a fucking babyface! He's the NXT champ and he's a tag team guy here. Owens as champ came in and slapped Cena in the face, Ciampa as champ came in and fought...the revival. I just get zero thought on bringing in these guys with something to do. This is 'what worked for NXT?' oh yeah, that one feud, let's do it, no need to intro anything. This is Bayley all over again.

Again, completely fair point, but I'm actually willing to give this the benefit of the doubt. Partially because I liked DIY as a tag team and I'm glad they're getting a main roster run as one. One of my main concerns with debuting Ciampa or Gargano on the main roster was that one guy would just immediately attack the other a la when Ciampa returned from injury and we'd just start back again, with weeks of "here's what happened on NXT" filler. The fact that they're starting as a tag team means they can tell a different story in a different environment.

this is ok, and I would assume that most people's reaction will be like this. What i get from this though is that i shouldn't think that NXT Ciampa and WWE Ciampa are the same, or at least, they're not in the same timeline. Unlike WWE's ratings, i'm not in a hurry, i rather they take the time to properly tease, build, and introduce wrestlers, and if they want them to be a tag team, the finish your previous story in nxt, reunite them, turn them face, and then you can go and challenge Revival

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 11:34 this is ok, and I would assume that most people's reaction will be like this. What i get from this though is that i shouldn't think that NXT Ciampa and WWE Ciampa are the same, or at least, they're not in the same timeline. rather they take the time to properly tease, build, and introduce wrestlers, and if they want them to be a tag team, the finish your previous story in nxt, reunite them, turn them face, and then you can go and challenge Revival

NXT Timeline and WWE Timeline are different, with the latter taking priority, so I think we'll get what you're asking for in future tapings, that is if they drop the title at the next Takeover It should be the opposite for sure. And they should be teased for sure., that much I agree with.

I'm just gonna say this-Cole's such a fuckin' idiot. He said "winning the big one" is The NXT North American Title...

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 10:43 to start off, I'm completely against in just debuting a bunch of people together, and debuting them with short to nill backstary or any build other than a few minute video and having to take the commentaries' opinion as word. Owens felt special because he came in alone and kicked ass, not because he was part of the post-WM DLC. I just don't see ANY allure in any of them, they're just part of the bunch because they do what everyone else does. There is only ONE reason why you would ever debut a bunch of people together -- An invasion.

The introduction of this new set of guys gives me the impression that Vince got bored with the previous group. I feel that he brought up all the guys he saw and he liked, and none of them made noise, so now he agreed to ask Hunter 'who your top guys are?' during dinner, and voila! now they're here.

Ricochet I think had the only good debut tonight, his insertion to Balor's story is completely random, but it works.

Gargano and Johnny, match aside (hey! remember 2018!?), was bad. Can we all agree that Ciampa is the biggest heel in ALL the company? and he was a fucking babyface! He's the NXT champ and he's a tag team guy here. Owens as champ came in and slapped Cena in the face, Ciampa as champ came in and fought...the revival. I just get zero thought on bringing in these guys with something to do. This is 'what worked for NXT?' oh yeah, that one feud, let's do it, no need to intro anything. This is Bayley all over again.

which brings me to the one that hurt me the most. Aleister Black

Remember the dark vignettes and his first rise from the underworld? remember what a big deal was when Dream pushed Black so much that he lost his composure and talked for the first time? Michael Cole introduced Black as the moody Aleister Black. He isn't moody, he's in perfect control of his emotions, that's why he's so precise, and that is his advantage over his enemies. This debut and commentary completely killed that dark allure and presence he had. His entrance was to a backdrop of empty seats, bored fans, ONE excited guy, and you could just see all the mechanical shit to lift him up, if you can't hide his little lift thing, then I hate to say it, don't do it at all. Aleister Black is just another guy from the bunch now. Get ready for weeks and weeks of Cole telling you that his life story is in his tattoos, because Black mentioned it in one promo months ago.

I haven't actually gotten up to Black's debut yet, I agree with absolutely everything you said here.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 13:29
cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 10:43 to start off, I'm completely against in just debuting a bunch of people together, and debuting them with short to nill backstary or any build other than a few minute video and having to take the commentaries' opinion as word. Owens felt special because he came in alone and kicked ass, not because he was part of the post-WM DLC. I just don't see ANY allure in any of them, they're just part of the bunch because they do what everyone else does. There is only ONE reason why you would ever debut a bunch of people together -- An invasion.

The introduction of this new set of guys gives me the impression that Vince got bored with the previous group. I feel that he brought up all the guys he saw and he liked, and none of them made noise, so now he agreed to ask Hunter 'who your top guys are?' during dinner, and voila! now they're here.

Ricochet I think had the only good debut tonight, his insertion to Balor's story is completely random, but it works.

Gargano and Johnny, match aside (hey! remember 2018!?), was bad. Can we all agree that Ciampa is the biggest heel in ALL the company? and he was a fucking babyface! He's the NXT champ and he's a tag team guy here. Owens as champ came in and slapped Cena in the face, Ciampa as champ came in and fought...the revival. I just get zero thought on bringing in these guys with something to do. This is 'what worked for NXT?' oh yeah, that one feud, let's do it, no need to intro anything. This is Bayley all over again.

which brings me to the one that hurt me the most. Aleister Black

Remember the dark vignettes and his first rise from the underworld? remember what a big deal was when Dream pushed Black so much that he lost his composure and talked for the first time? Michael Cole introduced Black as the moody Aleister Black. He isn't moody, he's in perfect control of his emotions, that's why he's so precise, and that is his advantage over his enemies. This debut and commentary completely killed that dark allure and presence he had. His entrance was to a backdrop of empty seats, bored fans, ONE excited guy, and you could just see all the mechanical shit to lift him up, if you can't hide his little lift thing, then I hate to say it, don't do it at all. Aleister Black is just another guy from the bunch now. Get ready for weeks and weeks of Cole telling you that his life story is in his tattoos, because Black mentioned it in one promo months ago.
I haven't actually gotten up to Black's debut yet, I agree with absolutely everything you said here.

Me either. I turned it off after Nia Jax and Tamina For the moment...though...yeah sure, Diy on RAW out of nowhere...hitting the big double finish just like that!

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 10:43 I'm completely against in just debuting a bunch of people together...

... I feel that he brought up all the guys he saw and he liked, and none of them made noise, so now he agreed to ask Hunter 'who your top guys are?' during dinner, and voila! now they're here.

I think you hit the nail on the head. They're just throwing things at the wall to see if anything sticks. Vince's obvious picks didn't do anything, so he let Hunter throw a handful.

I'm shocked we got DIY instead of Undisputed Era. I mean, if they're this desperate for something different that works, you at least get a super-over catchphrase with Adam Cole (BAY BAY!), the same great ring-work DIY brings, and you don't interrupt the saga that got Gargano/Ciampa to their respective positions they're in today - Undisputed Era has NOTHING going on right now, and would be guaranteed impacts on the main roster.

If I'm Nikki Cross/EC3/Lacey Evans, I'm going "WTF!? All of these guys got matches!?".

There's distinct differences in the approach here. The first crop got vignettes and chatter... dubbed "the hottest free agents", which show will they choose. DIY, Ricochet, and Black all got thrown right into the ring.

Also, something I noticed and we could debate; EC3, Cross, Evans, and I'll even throw Sullivan into that crew, were brought in as heels... or in a position where they could go either way. Ricochet, Black, and DIY were all introduced as CLEAR babyfaces. The fact they did it so close to calling up the last crop, especially right before Wrestlemania instead of after, tells me that they're scrambling for a quick fix behind the scenes.

The whole situation is very intriguing to me. Rewind a little further and look at Sanity and AOP. By all accounts, WWE is showing signs of a whore trying to be a housewife. It's easier to start over with something new than to fix something that could easily be mended. WWE doesn't have the capacity to fix these failed debuts, they don't understand where they went wrong when it's painfully obvious to everyone watching, so they move on to the next. I would not be at all surprised if we don't see EC3 again.

That said, how do I feel about the NXT Call-ups?

Vince's Picks:
-Lars Sullivan is a failure, and if he comes back (not to cross-post) they're in for a fun ride with all the fun stuff that's come up about his past.

-EC3 could be salvaged if they let him on the mic. I'm not sure what they were going for with him, but the bit with Ambrose - while salvaged in the ring, neutered EC3's strongest skill. Ambrose slayed him on the mic, and EC3 could have recovered much like Jericho did with The Rock in his debut, but he wasn't given the chance. WWE didn't know what to do with Bateman the first time around, and won't know what to do this time either. The red flags flew in NXT that the two just aren't a good fit.

-Nikki might be OK when the figure out what to do with her.

-Evans I think goes to Smackdown. Meltzer said her name was being thrown around for Auske at Wrestlemania, so I figure she's Smackdown bound. She'll be "entertainment".

Hunter's Picks:
-Ricochet, and I've said this since he joined NXT, is that Rey Mysterio replacement they've been looking for. Lord knows my kid loves him. He's a superhero. If they let him be that, he'll see Rey Mysterio type success, but I also fear they'll turn him into a one-trick-pony like they did with PAC. PAC didn't have Ric's natural charisma though... so we'll see.

-Black, if he stays on Raw he'll get over quick. If he goes to Smackdown, and I know the matchups over there are intrigueing, I think he gets lost in the shuffle.

-DIY is interesting to say the least.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 10:43 Gargano and Johnny, match aside (hey! remember 2018!?), was bad. Can we all agree that Ciampa is the biggest heel in ALL the company? and he was a fucking babyface! He's the NXT champ and he's a tag team guy here. Owens as champ came in and slapped Cena in the face, Ciampa as champ came in and fought...the revival. I just get zero thought on bringing in these guys with something to do. This is 'what worked for NXT?' oh yeah, that one feud, let's do it, no need to intro anything. This is Bayley all over again.

I agree, and I have 0% faith in WWE to get it right. I really don't, but since it's not too late yet...

Starting the angle over is the right thing to do on the main roster. ~MAYBE~ at that dinner Triple H and Vince had, Hunter said "...hey Pops... you want your main event for next year's Wrestlemania? I've got these two guys, but we have to start NOW..."

Sure, Ciampa IS the biggest heel in all the company, but without Gargano... without the story... he's nothing. IF getting full blown best heel in the company Ciampa on to one of their major shows, this is ABSOLUTELY the way you go. NXT never happened, just that these two "have a long history together" and "are like brothers". I'm hoping and praying and have 0% faith that they called up Ciampa with an end goal and booked them both backwards.

That's ALL I can figure they're going for... otherwise, if they just needed a tag team to have good matches, ReDragon makes more sense.

Sure, we've been watching the Ciampa/Gargano saga for...what? Like, two years now? I'm down for watching it again instead of what's on Raw now. As a matter of fact, I HAVE been watching that instead of Raw for the last two years. I'm down for that, at least we know the matches will deliver... *coughcoughAmbroseandRollinscoughcough*

Undisputed Era doesn't need to be called up right now. With Ciampa and Gargano on at the top of the pile, UE has been an upper mid-card act. With DIY gone though, let the games begin. Book them to win all the titles on NXT like they've been crowing about, bring them up in 2020 in a Superstar Shakeup and let them really make an impact, like Kevin Owens did, immediately jumping for the top guys.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 11:34
NWK2000 wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 11:12
Gargano and Johnny, match aside (hey! remember 2018!?), was bad. Can we all agree that Ciampa is the biggest heel in ALL the company? and he was a fucking babyface! He's the NXT champ and he's a tag team guy here. Owens as champ came in and slapped Cena in the face, Ciampa as champ came in and fought...the revival. I just get zero thought on bringing in these guys with something to do. This is 'what worked for NXT?' oh yeah, that one feud, let's do it, no need to intro anything. This is Bayley all over again.

Again, completely fair point, but I'm actually willing to give this the benefit of the doubt. Partially because I liked DIY as a tag team and I'm glad they're getting a main roster run as one. One of my main concerns with debuting Ciampa or Gargano on the main roster was that one guy would just immediately attack the other a la when Ciampa returned from injury and we'd just start back again, with weeks of "here's what happened on NXT" filler. The fact that they're starting as a tag team means they can tell a different story in a different environment.

this is ok, and I would assume that most people's reaction will be like this. What i get from this though is that i shouldn't think that NXT Ciampa and WWE Ciampa are the same, or at least, they're not in the same timeline. Unlike WWE's ratings, i'm not in a hurry, i rather they take the time to properly tease, build, and introduce wrestlers, and if they want them to be a tag team, the finish your previous story in nxt, reunite them, turn them face, and then you can go and challenge Revival

Again... this.

NWK2000 wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 11:47
cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 11:34 this is ok, and I would assume that most people's reaction will be like this. What i get from this though is that i shouldn't think that NXT Ciampa and WWE Ciampa are the same, or at least, they're not in the same timeline. rather they take the time to properly tease, build, and introduce wrestlers, and if they want them to be a tag team, the finish your previous story in nxt, reunite them, turn them face, and then you can go and challenge Revival

NXT Timeline and WWE Timeline are different, with the latter taking priority, so I think we'll get what you're asking for in future tapings, that is if they drop the title at the next Takeover It should be the opposite for sure. And they should be teased for sure., that much I agree with.

I totally disagree with this. Unless you have something ESSENTIAL that you need done in WWE time-wise, NXT's timing needs should take precedent simply because being taped makes them so set in stone. Unless there is some super-mega-important and time-specific thing that needs to happen with these guys at or before this year's WrestleMania, then there was absolutely no reason to call them up before then, as you're really just killing your TakeOver finishes.

NWK2000 wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 15:27 Undisputed Era doesn't need to be called up right now. With Ciampa and Gargano on at the top of the pile, UE has been an upper mid-card act. With DIY gone though, let the games begin. Book them to win all the titles on NXT like they've been crowing about, bring them up in 2020 in a Superstar Shakeup and let them really make an impact, like Kevin Owens did, immediately jumping for the top guys.

Bringing UE doens't disrupt NXT and allows for a greater chance for success on the main roster because they have one unit to focus on, not three or four.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 19th, '19, 10:43 The introduction of this new set of guys gives me the impression that Vince got bored with the previous group. I feel that he brought up all the guys he saw and he liked, and none of them made noise, so now he agreed to ask Hunter 'who your top guys are?' during dinner, and voila! now they're here.

You nailed it! From WOR Recap:

Meltzer also brought up that the reasoning behind the NXT call-ups is that at some point last week, Vince decided for whatever reason that they he wanted a lot more great wrestlers on Raw. So he basically told Triple H to give him his four best guys in NXT and these are the guys that were picked.

He added later that Vince feels like the reason the ratings are down is that the shows lack stars, but that most of the guys on the roster are already too damaged to be built back up all the way. So they brought up these four NXT guys to push super hard right out of the gate and make them stars.

EDIT: So Dave has clarified some points on his board. He says that Triple H actually didn’t know that Vince was calling the four NXT guys up, and there was a communication issue between the two of them on the situation.

-So, Triple H didn't know the guys he picked were getting "called up", he Just thought Vince wanted them for the night, which explains the DIY thing.

-Vince feels like "most of the guys on the roster are already too damaged to be built back up all the way"!? Then he proceeded to try and give away Ricochet vs Balor for free for no other reason than to fill time. Introduce Black as "moody"... I don't get it.

Bob-O wrote: ↑Feb 21st, '19, 10:30

Vince feels like "most of the guys on the roster are already too damaged to be built back up all the way"!? Then he proceeded to try and give away Ricochet vs Balor for free for no other reason than to fill time. Introduce Black as "moody"... I don't get it.
It's super jank, but I feel like Black and Ricochet will get over organically. They're too cool of characters not to.

NWK2000 wrote: ↑Feb 21st, '19, 11:11
Bob-O wrote: ↑Feb 21st, '19, 10:30

Vince feels like "most of the guys on the roster are already too damaged to be built back up all the way"!? Then he proceeded to try and give away Ricochet vs Balor for free for no other reason than to fill time. Introduce Black as "moody"... I don't get it.
It's super jank, but I feel like Black and Ricochet will get over organically. They're too cool of characters not to.
Yeah... I legitimately stopped for a moment upon hearing this because my brain literally couldn’t put it together. He has a fantastic roster but because none of them have gotten over DESPITE his dreadful booking, he’s disinterested and stole Hunter’s four best guys to ruin them too.

I know WWE is the only wrestling company I follow, but... I hate this company.

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