Impact Wrestling
November 29, 2018
Las Vegas, NV
F4WOnline Version: https://www.f4wonline.com/tna-results/i ... but-271301

The Lucha Brothers vs Rich Swann & Willie Mack - 6.5/10
Good opener with a lot of athletic spots, lots of dives and reversals. Pentagon and Mack paired up quite nicely. Finish saw Pentagon and Fenix hit the leg-scissors splash to pick up the win. Great opening match.

Post-match - Impact Tag Team Champions LAX (Santana & Ortiz) came out without Konnan. Ortiz cut a promo putting over the match we just saw and asked who are next for LAX, running down all the teams they've defeated in the last year. Santana got the mic and said that they have defeated everyone, but they haven't given their familia a chance for the championships. Santana challenged the Lucha Brothers for Homecoming. Pentagon & Fenix accepted.

Josh Mathews ran down the card for tonight and announced that next week, we start the qualifier matches for Homecoming's Ultimate X match.

Video package for Brian Cage and Johnny Impact's World Championship match at Homecoming - Cage cut a good, short promo about doing whatever it takes to finally achieve his destiny and win the World title.

LAX clubhouse - Konnan was berating Santana and Ortiz about acting without telling him. Konnan used the Juventud Guerrera vs. Rey Mysterio feud as an example that friendly matches with friends tend to become personal when championships get in the way. Konnan walked out on them at the end saying he knows what he needs to do.

Jordynne Grace vs Katarina - 4/10
Grace won with a huge pounce, followed with a running knee to the corner, a running elbow, a Vader Bomb, and used the bear hug for the submission win. The match started sloppy, but it got better as it went on, and once again, I think Katarina got way too much offense for my opinion.

KM and Fallah Bahh Segment - They were backstage talking about losing their chance at a championship match with LAX, but they're still in Las Vegas, so tonight they are hitting the town and winning some money. After a quick cut, KM and Bahh were crying because they lost all their money. Suddenly, Scarlett Bordeaux made an appearance, telling them that if they want to impress her, there is a lot of competition.

GWN's Flashback Moment of the Week was the Ultimate X with Low Ki defeating Andrew Everett and Trevor Lee to retain the X-Division Championship.

Referee Brandon Tolle and Tessa Segment - Backstage, referee Brandon Tolle came into Tessa Blanchard's locker room, imposing his authority with Blanchard and saying that in the ring, it's the referee who sets the rules and neither he nor the rest will take Blanchard's antics, referring to Blanchard punching Tolle a few weeks ago. I like that Scarlett's words has really woken up these refs.

Tommy Dreamer Interview - He once again took a swipe at millennials, saying that Eli Drake doesn't care about the men and women that paved the way for him to be where he is. Dreamer made fun of Drake copying The Rock and Steve Austin's mannerisms. He said that at the end, people will talk about Dreamer's career and not Drake's. Good promo.

Taya Valkyrie vs Ray Lyn - Great Squash
Valkyrie debuted new music and a new tron video tonight, officially dropping the "Queen" gimmick. The match started with Ray Lyn trying to mock Valkyrie, getting some great offense in, but the match quickly turned around as Valkyrie hit several running strikes to a cornered Lyn. Valkyrie went for the Road to Valhalla, but Lyn blocked it and got some more kicks in, only to lose focus by trying to mock Valkyrie again. Valkyrie countered Lyn, hit a curb stomp, and locked in a new submission that is like an elevated version of an STF. This was technically a squash, but still a great showing for Ray Lyn.

Post-match - Tessa Blanchard ran down during Valkyrie's celebration. Referee Tolle tried to impose his authority, but Blanchard took him out, choking out the ref until the rest of the staff came out to stop her. No one dared to touch Blanchard -- until Gail Kim of all people came out and pulled Blanchard off the referee. Valkyrie hit a spear before Blanchard managed to escape.

Impact and Cage's Video package - This time it was Impact's turn to talk. He put over Cage's undefeated streak, but at Homecoming it won't be like the rest of Cage's matches. Suddenly, behind Johnny Impact, we saw a shadow walk into the frame -- and it was Killer Kross.

Kross told the camera to get away, since he needed a moment with Mr. Hennigan. Kross once again implored that Impact rely on him for his match with Cage. Impact blowed him off and walked away. Really great execution on Kross' entrance.

The Rascalz (Dezmond Xavier &Zachary Wentz) vs Mike Sydal & Chris Bey - Squash
Mike Sydal is indeed Matt Sydal's younger brother. Xavier and Sydal did a series of fast-paced reversals. Wentz got tagged in and hit a Bronco Buster on Bey. The Rascalz hit a kick combo on Sydal and followed with stereo tope con giros to the outside. Back in the ring, Wentz hit the Hot Fire Flame moonsault on Sydal for the pin. Short match, but a great showing for The Rascalz.

Kiera Hogan Interview - Hogan said that no matter what we've seen, she believes that Allie's soul is still in her because when she had the chance to attack Hogan, Allie didn't. Hogan begged for Allie to "come home."

Back from commercial, we were in a mental hospital with Alisha Edwards trying to talk to a drugged out Eddie Edwards, but the doctor took her away and said Eddie needs rest.

We then saw Moose come to visit Eddie. He had a copy of Eddie's book, but Moose complained that he is not mentioned in the book, nor Alisha leaving Eddie, nor ending in a mental hospital, saying that this book is a farce and that Eddie will stay in this hospital, but that he'll take care of Alisha.

Eli Drake Interview - He said that his problem is not with hardcore wrestling, but with Impact Wrestling allowing it. Drake said that he never had problems with Dreamer, but it seems he has struck a nerve, and so if Dreamer wants to mess with him, he'll need to take care of him tonight and make an example.

Matt Sydal and Ethan Page Talk - Sydal explained that he keeps stumbling along his way to enlightenment. Page tried to cheer up Sydal, but with a certain set of words that triggered Sydal, and so Sydal announced that they will face each other in one of the Ultimate X qualifying matches in order to teach him the path to enlightenment.

Tommy Dreamer vs Eli Drake - Dud
They started the match with Dreamer getting the better of Drake at the collar-and-elbow tie up. Drake tried to change the game into strikes, but Dreamer got the upper hand once again, so Drake decided to walk away and get counted out. Josh Mathews said that he had word from Impact officials that this match was being restarted under no disqualification rules.

No DQs Match
Eli Drake vs Tommy Dreamer - 5/10
The match began during commercials, so when we came back, Dreamer was already beating Drake up the ramp with a garbage can full of weapons being brought out. Dreamer started going around using some of the weapons, including a ring bell shot and using a fan's cane. Drake suplexed Dreamer on the ramp, finally turning the match around, leading to Drake working over Dreamer inside the ring and getting mostly punches and some weapon shots in.

Dreamer and Drake kept going back and forth, exchanging big moves with a chair. Dreamer hit a DDT for a two count, but as he went for the Death Valley Driver, Drake threw Dreamer into a trash can and hit the Gravy Train for a huge near fall, with Dreamer becoming the first to kick out. An annoyed Drake put a chair around Dreamer's neck. Drake hit a baseball swing like EVIL would, leaving Dreamer down for the pin. Not that good of a main event, even with the weapons being introduced.

Post-match - Backstage, Drake found a few balloons and a card. We didn't see what the letter said, but Drake seemed surprised as the episode went off the air.

OVERALL THOUGHTS
A good show, it was another step in towards the build to Homecoming since we mostly got new matches formed. I found exciting how they handled the Rascalz debut, it kinda felt like a big debut considering they're indie guys. Wrestling wise, even with squashes, we had some good wrestling, it was really just the main event that sucked for what was expected out of it.

Mental hospital angles, more Tommy Dreamer in 2018... time to just shut this place down.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 3rd, '18, 09:27 Mental hospital angles, more Tommy Dreamer in 2018... time to just shut this place down.

a bad fat wrestler doesn't cancel out all the great stuff that does go on

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 3rd, '18, 11:03

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 3rd, '18, 09:27 Mental hospital angles, more Tommy Dreamer in 2018... time to just shut this place down.

a bad fat wrestler doesn't cancel out all the great stuff that does go on

It's the mentality behind using Tommy. At least ROH and Sandman was a one-time thing with some (small bit of) logic to it, and I'd say that shouldn't have happened, either.

And they're doing f*cking mental hospital angles, and worked shoots and and Austin Aries trying to be Brian Pillman. They're going through a greatest hits list of desperate 1990s wrestling company sh*t instead of focusing on sh*t that is actually helpful. That, plus they're doing science fiction stories with Allie. Which- again- hasn't actually ever helped anyone draw. They're spinning their wheels. It'd be better for the wrestling world for them to just go away, give someone else their TV spot, and then let their talent get split between indies, ROH, and AEW.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 3rd, '18, 11:12

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 3rd, '18, 11:03

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 3rd, '18, 09:27 Mental hospital angles, more Tommy Dreamer in 2018... time to just shut this place down.

a bad fat wrestler doesn't cancel out all the great stuff that does go on

It's the mentality behind using Tommy. At least ROH and Sandman was a one-time thing with some (small bit of) logic to it, and I'd say that shouldn't have happened, either.

And they're doing f*cking mental hospital angles, and worked shoots and and Austin Aries trying to be Brian Pillman. They're going through a greatest hits list of desperate 1990s wrestling company sh*t instead of focusing on sh*t that is actually helpful. That, plus they're doing science fiction stories with Allie. Which- again- hasn't actually ever helped anyone draw. They're spinning their wheels. It'd be better for the wrestling world for them to just go away, give someone else their TV spot, and then let their talent get split between indies, ROH, and AEW.

The whole Allie stuff has been awesome, Killer Kross is awesome, Lucha Bros are awesome, the WHOLE LAX run has been awesome, Rascalz seem to be coming in strong, Tessa has been awesome, Moose is awesome. oVe, Sydal/Page, Brian Cage, Johnny Impact, Bahh/KM, Scarlett, it's all been enjoyable.
It's really easy to point out stuff that you don't like , especially if it happened more than a month ago. Having one older guy that is respected by the whole wrestling community be a build up guy towards whatever Drake does, is not bad nor it brings the show down, it's not like we have 50 yr old main eventing PPVs. A mental hospital angle, when was the last time there was one? Scott Hall? at least this one had been building up for months.
Impact is on 10PM on POPTv and they're likely getting replaced with AroLuchas' one and only season, what spot are they taking? are AEW hoping to get that 10PM Poptv spot? Impact is harmless and in the big scheme of things, it's a lot better than a lot of stuff out there.

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 3rd, '18, 11:30

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 3rd, '18, 11:12

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 3rd, '18, 11:03

a bad fat wrestler doesn't cancel out all the great stuff that does go on

It's the mentality behind using Tommy. At least ROH and Sandman was a one-time thing with some (small bit of) logic to it, and I'd say that shouldn't have happened, either.

And they're doing f*cking mental hospital angles, and worked shoots and and Austin Aries trying to be Brian Pillman. They're going through a greatest hits list of desperate 1990s wrestling company sh*t instead of focusing on sh*t that is actually helpful. That, plus they're doing science fiction stories with Allie. Which- again- hasn't actually ever helped anyone draw. They're spinning their wheels. It'd be better for the wrestling world for them to just go away, give someone else their TV spot, and then let their talent get split between indies, ROH, and AEW.

The whole Allie stuff has been awesome, Killer Kross is awesome, Lucha Bros are awesome, the WHOLE LAX run has been awesome, Rascalz seem to be coming in strong, Tessa has been awesome, Moose is awesome. oVe, Sydal/Page, Brian Cage, Johnny Impact, Bahh/KM, Scarlett, it's all been enjoyable.
It's really easy to point out stuff that you don't like , especially if it happened more than a month ago. Having one older guy that is respected by the whole wrestling community be a build up guy towards whatever Drake does, is not bad nor it brings the show down, it's not like we have 50 yr old main eventing PPVs. A mental hospital angle, when was the last time there was one? Scott Hall? at least this one had been building up for months.
Impact is on 10PM on POPTv and they're likely getting replaced with AroLuchas' one and only season, what spot are they taking? are AEW hoping to get that 10PM Poptv spot? Impact is harmless and in the big scheme of things, it's a lot better than a lot of stuff out there.

Killer Kross is meh. The Allie stuff is fun if you're into it but doesn't ever lead to an increase in attendance (neither did the Hardys thing. It just got Matt & Jeff more over). The Lucha Bros do the same thing everywhere else they go so who cares if they do it in TNA as opposed to ROH or MLW or LU? Ditto for Johnny Impact.
It's just about Dreamer's age, is it's that Dreamer has been playing this same role in TNA (and, at times in other places) for almost a decade now and it never draws, but they're still wasting time and money on it.
Yes, Ric Flair/Scott Hall was the last mental hospital angle (unless you're counting Sam Shaw's brief stay), but there is a reason that no one has done one in that long.

TNA/Impact/GFW or whatever they change their name to next just plain isn't gonig anywhere, and it's frustrating to see the likes of Eddie Edwards, Moose, Tessa, Aries, Sydal, Page, LAX (both versions) etc. repeatedly flounder there. They've had so many chance to get this right, and they still can't do it. Meanwhile, all of the guys they're losing, Aries, Eddie, Moose, and Santana/Ortiz could actually make a difference in ROH, it'll never happen because they're stuck in TNA.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 3rd, '18, 12:09
Killer Kross is meh. The Allie stuff is fun if you're into it but doesn't ever lead to an increase in attendance (neither did the Hardys thing. It just got Matt & Jeff more over). The Lucha Bros do the same thing everywhere else they go so who cares if they do it in TNA as opposed to ROH or MLW or LU? Ditto for Johnny Impact.
It's just about Dreamer's age, is it's that Dreamer has been playing this same role in TNA (and, at times in other places) for almost a decade now and it never draws, but they're still wasting time and money on it.
Yes, Ric Flair/Scott Hall was the last mental hospital angle (unless you're counting Sam Shaw's brief stay), but there is a reason that no one has done one in that long.

TNA/Impact/GFW or whatever they change their name to next just plain isn't gonig anywhere, and it's frustrating to see the likes of Eddie Edwards, Moose, Tessa, Aries, Sydal, Page, LAX (both versions) etc. repeatedly flounder there. They've had so many chance to get this right, and they still can't do it. Meanwhile, all of the guys they're losing, Aries, Eddie, Moose, and Santana/Ortiz could actually make a difference in ROH, it'll never happen because they're stuck in TNA.

Our personal dislikes don't mean that a lot of people are not enjoying nor it makes it automatically bad. I've learned that with everything that WWE does. It's like saying Gabe books the same shit all the time, so who cares?
I'm not the biggest Dreamer fan either, but he is far from the worst thing in wrestling, he's a stepping stone in every story he's been involved in, he's not winning championships nor taking time away from anyone, it's not like anyone is being pushed down to benefit him.
So just because a bad booker did a bad thing 20 years ago we're never going to touch it again? no wonder why WWE wont' try new shit and books the same story every year. And again, like Dreamer, it constitutes about 5-10% of everything that happens on Impact, it doesn't mean the whole company is gonna suck because someone dislikes one specific angle.

So you want all this talent to go to ROH so you can instead complain about how Delirious treats them? ROH HAD Aries not long ago and what did he do? feud with meaningless Kenny King for the meaningless tv title. Wrestlers are far better off in Impact right now than they'd be on ROH. Look at ECIII, Spud, Storm, Mike Bennett and Maria, Madison Rayne, Everett, Matt Hardy, Lashley, they're all either irrelevant, jokes, lost in oblivion, or peeing themselves on live PPV. McIntyre is lucky he is as tall as he is and that Reigns and Strowman are out of action. If you wanted to make that argument from 2009-2016, i'd agree with you, but in 2018 Impact is better than ROH.

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 10:09

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 3rd, '18, 12:09
Killer Kross is meh. The Allie stuff is fun if you're into it but doesn't ever lead to an increase in attendance (neither did the Hardys thing. It just got Matt & Jeff more over). The Lucha Bros do the same thing everywhere else they go so who cares if they do it in TNA as opposed to ROH or MLW or LU? Ditto for Johnny Impact.
It's just about Dreamer's age, is it's that Dreamer has been playing this same role in TNA (and, at times in other places) for almost a decade now and it never draws, but they're still wasting time and money on it.
Yes, Ric Flair/Scott Hall was the last mental hospital angle (unless you're counting Sam Shaw's brief stay), but there is a reason that no one has done one in that long.

TNA/Impact/GFW or whatever they change their name to next just plain isn't gonig anywhere, and it's frustrating to see the likes of Eddie Edwards, Moose, Tessa, Aries, Sydal, Page, LAX (both versions) etc. repeatedly flounder there. They've had so many chance to get this right, and they still can't do it. Meanwhile, all of the guys they're losing, Aries, Eddie, Moose, and Santana/Ortiz could actually make a difference in ROH, it'll never happen because they're stuck in TNA.

Our personal dislikes don't mean that a lot of people are not enjoying nor it makes it automatically bad. I've learned that with everything that WWE does. It's like saying Gabe books the same shit all the time, so who cares?
I'm not the biggest Dreamer fan either, but he is far from the worst thing in wrestling, he's a stepping stone in every story he's been involved in, he's not winning championships nor taking time away from anyone, it's not like anyone is being pushed down to benefit him.
So just because a bad booker did a bad thing 20 years ago we're never going to touch it again? no wonder why WWE wont' try new shit and books the same story every year. And again, like Dreamer, it constitutes about 5-10% of everything that happens on Impact, it doesn't mean the whole company is gonna suck because someone dislikes one specific angle.

But TNA is in a different situation than Gabe or ROH. They've been failing so constantly and yet continue to make the same mistakes. Say what you want about Gabe or pretty much any of ROH's bookers, but they learned how to adjust when things weren't working.

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 10:09 So you want all this talent to go to ROH so you can instead complain about how Delirious treats them? ROH HAD Aries not long ago and what did he do? feud with meaningless Kenny King for the meaningless tv title.

Would Delirious misuse them? Probably. But:
1. It would at least force him to stop using guys like Taylor, Milonas, BCB, and the other mediocre losers we see.
2. My impression is that the TNA talents are a bit more used to having creative input, so they would hopefully be more willing and ready to step up and start filling in the storyline gaps that Delirious misses. Bully and The Elite have shown that Delirious is perfectly happy to let others do the work for him, and I have more faith in Aries booking Aries than I do in Delirious booking Aries.
3. Now that guys like Moose have gotten the chance to show they can talk in TNA, hopefully Delirious will let them talk more (Moose had one promo in ROH and it was so good that people were asking why Delirious never let him talk more).

The Aries-King feud was the precursor to Kenny King's current heel turn, with his failures to defeat Aries combined with the tactics Aries used against him having taught him that cheating is a path to winning, and making him think that "you might cheat to screw me so I'm going to cheat to beat you first" is a morally justifiable attitude.

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 10:09 Wrestlers are far better off in Impact right now than they'd be on ROH. Look at ECIII, Spud, Storm, Mike Bennett and Maria, Madison Rayne, Everett, Matt Hardy, Lashley, they're all either irrelevant, jokes, lost in oblivion, or peeing themselves on live PPV. McIntyre is lucky he is as tall as he is and that Reigns and Strowman are out of action. If you wanted to make that argument from 2009-2016, i'd agree with you, but in 2018 Impact is better than ROH.

You're quoting a bunch of WWE misdeeds, not ROH (or Gabe, or MLW) ones.
When TNA does straight wrestling, they are better than ROH creatively right now, but they're spending so much time trying to do worked shoots and Hardy-style stuff. ROH is monetarily self-sufficient. TNA has not been. Them not changing is a sign that they never will. I refuse to spend any more time watching them make the same mistakes. Who was the last guy who actually benefited from one of these "stepping stone" feuds with Tommy Dreamer?

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 11:13
But TNA is in a different situation than Gabe or ROH. They've been failing so constantly and yet continue to make the same mistakes. Say what you want about Gabe or pretty much any of ROH's bookers, but they learned how to adjust when things weren't working.

but it's the same story all the time, fighting for a championship, so who cares? If you argue why care about Lucha Bros that do their same gimmick in all their promotions, what's the difference caring for a booker than does the same book all the time?

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 10:09 Would Delirious misuse them? Probably. But:
1. It would at least force him to stop using guys like Taylor, Milonas, BCB, and the other mediocre losers we see.
2. My impression is that the TNA talents are a bit more used to having creative input, so they would hopefully be more willing and ready to step up and start filling in the storyline gaps that Delirious misses. Bully and The Elite have shown that Delirious is perfectly happy to let others do the work for him, and I have more faith in Aries booking Aries than I do in Delirious booking Aries.
3. Now that guys like Moose have gotten the chance to show they can talk in TNA, hopefully Delirious will let them talk more (Moose had one promo in ROH and it was so good that people were asking why Delirious never let him talk more).

The Aries-King feud was the precursor to Kenny King's current heel turn, with his failures to defeat Aries combined with the tactics Aries used against him having taught him that cheating is a path to winning, and making him think that "you might cheat to screw me so I'm going to cheat to beat you first" is a morally justifiable attitude.

1. So screw this promotion that is doing good for these wrestlers to replace the crap ones that Delirious can't figure out himself? fuck that, replace Delirious then.
2. Again, then replaced Delirious. What's gonna happen when these guys get booked like shit? Leave like Lio, Keith Lee, Elgin, Dijak, etc etc
3. So take all the work that Impact has done and give it to ROH? how is that even fair, maybe it's ROH that should wrap things up and become AEW and give Impact their Sinclair TV deal.

That Aries-King feud the proves that ROH took Aries and used him as a means to an end, which could had been pretty much anyone, hell, Rhett Titus that's still there could had been that guy, yet they took who would had been the best talker in ROH and put him in a tv title feud.

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 10:09 You're quoting a bunch of WWE misdeeds, not ROH (or Gabe, or MLW) ones.
When TNA does straight wrestling, they are better than ROH creatively right now, but they're spending so much time trying to do worked shoots and Hardy-style stuff. ROH is monetarily self-sufficient. TNA has not been. Them not changing is a sign that they never will. I refuse to spend any more time watching them make the same mistakes. Who was the last guy who actually benefited from one of these "stepping stone" feuds with Tommy Dreamer?

I have nothing against MLW, and Gabe has really just taken DJZ, which had already done enough in Impact. ECIII was wasted and Galloway wasn't really an Impact guy when he worked EVOLVE. ROH has only taken older guys that really had nothing left to do in Impact and they mostly left when Dixie was still there, ROH hasn't taken anyone since Callis took over.
There isn't one 'worked-shoot' going on today and the Matt Hardy style is awesome and they do it well and they don't spam the show with it, it happens only on PPVs. You judge Impact like if it was the Impact that you used to watch with Dixie, which is long gone, and you already stopped watching so i don't even know what time you're spending.
Yeah, ROH is monetarily self-suficient, because it was bought by Sinclair, but MAINLY, because they do all the things you hate with the Bullet Club and NJPW.
You're not supposed to benefit from beating Dreamer, he's a stepping stone to the actual challenge. Impact uses Dreamer to build Drake's next big feud when someone comes out to save Dreamer; on the other hand, ROH used Austin Freaking Aries to turn Kenny King. Talk about who misuses their talent more.

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 5th, '18, 14:30

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 11:13
But TNA is in a different situation than Gabe or ROH. They've been failing so constantly and yet continue to make the same mistakes. Say what you want about Gabe or pretty much any of ROH's bookers, but they learned how to adjust when things weren't working.

but it's the same story all the time, fighting for a championship, so who cares? If you argue why care about Lucha Bros that do their same gimmick in all their promotions, what's the difference caring for a booker than does the same book all the time?

Because TNA books their titles weakly enough that they don't mean much (maybe except for the world title). If I've only got so much time in my week then why should I care about them going for TNA's meh titles when they hold a bunch of gold elsewhere. What's the draw?
The difference between that and Gabe is that Gabe is not a character. The stories are inherently different with different characters, or else every journey to the title is the same.

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 10:09

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 11:13 Would Delirious misuse them? Probably. But:
1. It would at least force him to stop using guys like Taylor, Milonas, BCB, and the other mediocre losers we see.
2. My impression is that the TNA talents are a bit more used to having creative input, so they would hopefully be more willing and ready to step up and start filling in the storyline gaps that Delirious misses. Bully and The Elite have shown that Delirious is perfectly happy to let others do the work for him, and I have more faith in Aries booking Aries than I do in Delirious booking Aries.
3. Now that guys like Moose have gotten the chance to show they can talk in TNA, hopefully Delirious will let them talk more (Moose had one promo in ROH and it was so good that people were asking why Delirious never let him talk more).

The Aries-King feud was the precursor to Kenny King's current heel turn, with his failures to defeat Aries combined with the tactics Aries used against him having taught him that cheating is a path to winning, and making him think that "you might cheat to screw me so I'm going to cheat to beat you first" is a morally justifiable attitude.

1. So screw this promotion that is doing good for these wrestlers to replace the crap ones that Delirious can't figure out himself? fuck that, replace Delirious then.
2. Again, then replaced Delirious. What's gonna happen when these guys get booked like shit? Leave like Lio, Keith Lee, Elgin, Dijak, etc etc
3. So take all the work that Impact has done and give it to ROH? how is that even fair, maybe it's ROH that should wrap things up and become AEW and give Impact their Sinclair TV deal.

That Aries-King feud the proves that ROH took Aries and used him as a means to an end, which could had been pretty much anyone, hell, Rhett Titus that's still there could had been that guy, yet they took who would had been the best talker in ROH and put him in a tv title feud.

1 & 2. Haven't I been saying that for a years? Replace the sh*tty bookers. In ROH, in TNA, in WWE, everywhere.
3. It's not work TNA did. Moose didn't get any better on the mic in TNA, just like Keith Lee didn't get any better on the mic in EVOLVE and Lio Rush didn't get any better on the mic in WWE. He just got the chance to show skills that were already there. The time that Flip, Gresham, and some others have gotten shows that Delirious has at least learned a bit from his mistakes (now if only he could figure out how to use promos to actually interface with a story he is telling, as opposed to one Bully Ray or Cody are telling).

Was Aries a means to an end? Yes. But else were you expecting? Someone to actually win the other company's belt? Come on.
This was a politically expedient outcome for all involved that allowed Aries to work some more dates and play up his "belt collector" bit while tell a story that moved Kenny King in the direction ROH wanted Kenny moved in, giving ROH the possible extra drawing power of Aries coming back, and giving both companies a little bit of buzz from the idea that they were willing to work together.
No one else would have worked for ROH's purposes because no one else is Kenny King's kayfabe mentor. Or maybe it could have worked, but it would have never worked as well. There is more history in Kenny once again taking Aries' advice than in Kenny deciding to start cheating because he lost to Silas Young.

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 10:09

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 11:13 You're quoting a bunch of WWE misdeeds, not ROH (or Gabe, or MLW) ones.
When TNA does straight wrestling, they are better than ROH creatively right now, but they're spending so much time trying to do worked shoots and Hardy-style stuff. ROH is monetarily self-sufficient. TNA has not been. Them not changing is a sign that they never will. I refuse to spend any more time watching them make the same mistakes. Who was the last guy who actually benefited from one of these "stepping stone" feuds with Tommy Dreamer?

I have nothing against MLW, and Gabe has really just taken DJZ, which had already done enough in Impact. ECIII was wasted and Galloway wasn't really an Impact guy when he worked EVOLVE. ROH has only taken older guys that really had nothing left to do in Impact and they mostly left when Dixie was still there, ROH hasn't taken anyone since Callis took over.
There isn't one 'worked-shoot' going on today and the Matt Hardy style is awesome and they do it well and they don't spam the show with it, it happens only on PPVs. You judge Impact like if it was the Impact that you used to watch with Dixie, which is long gone, and you already stopped watching so i don't even know what time you're spending.
Yeah, ROH is monetarily self-suficient, because it was bought by Sinclair, but MAINLY, because they do all the things you hate with the Bullet Club and NJPW.
You're not supposed to benefit from beating Dreamer, he's a stepping stone to the actual challenge. Impact uses Dreamer to build Drake's next big feud when someone comes out to save Dreamer; on the other hand, ROH used Austin Freaking Aries to turn Kenny King. Talk about who misuses their talent more.

No one has jumped to ROH since Callis took over because 1) ROH's roster is already stuffed, and 2) they've pretty obviously been waiting to offer their money to Cody/The Bucks/Page/etc, just like they anticipated WWE doing. Now that this Kahn guy and his AEW have jumped in, you're going to see them spending a lot more of it (Brody King, PCO, Tracy Williams).
They shouldn't be spending PPV time on sci-fi/fantasy, and it clashes with the entire rest of the universe.
EC III didn't last in EVOLVE because he couldn't cut the mustard in the ring (if he was ever supposed to be a long-term thing, which I'm not sure he was.
Don't forget that I was watching earlier this year again as well. It's different than what it had been, but it's a different kind of bad. It's like Cornette-booked ROH meets Lucha Underground meets late 1999 WCW meets... something else wacky. It's the Ian Riccaboni of wrestling promotions. It's trying so hard to be this "modernized" version of a preconceived notion of "PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING" that it's just goofy. It's like they're doing GLOW sketches but serious instead of funny. It wants to be a real sporting contest sometimes and other times it's magical stuff and other times it's a soap opera with Eddie Edwards in an insane asylum stuff, and other times they've got f*cking POV shots from the POV of the Powers That Be. All of this stuff cannot coexist on a wrestling show. Some of it can, if you do it right, but not all of it, and they don't do it right, anyway.

Bullet Club BS might have made ROH self-sufficient, but I'll argue until I'm blue in the face that they'd be even more self-sufficient if they had kept being ROH. We're going to find out next year.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 5th, '18, 15:13 Because TNA books their titles weakly enough that they don't mean much (maybe except for the world title). If I've only got so much time in my week then why should I care about them going for TNA's meh titles when they hold a bunch of gold elsewhere. What's the draw?
The difference between that and Gabe is that Gabe is not a character. The stories are inherently different with different characters, or else every journey to the title is the same.

They are the most important thing on Impact, so against what do they not mean much? Tessa and LAX's reigns have been pretty strong, the X-Division under Sydal and Cage were well used. What's the draw? The wrestling, the characters, the story, like every other promotion. If championships were the biggest draw, why is EVOLVE not drawing?
If we're talking different character and different journeys, then Impact does a far better job because everyone is really different from each other and they all have different reasons to chase a title

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 11:13 1 & 2. Haven't I been saying that for a years? Replace the sh*tty bookers. In ROH, in TNA, in WWE, everywhere.
3. It's not work TNA did. Moose didn't get any better on the mic in TNA, just like Keith Lee didn't get any better on the mic in EVOLVE and Lio Rush didn't get any better on the mic in WWE. He just got the chance to show skills that were already there. The time that Flip, Gresham, and some others have gotten shows that Delirious has at least learned a bit from his mistakes (now if only he could figure out how to use promos to actually interface with a story he is telling, as opposed to one Bully Ray or Cody are telling).

Was Aries a means to an end? Yes. But else were you expecting? Someone to actually win the other company's belt? Come on.
This was a politically expedient outcome for all involved that allowed Aries to work some more dates and play up his "belt collector" bit while tell a story that moved Kenny King in the direction ROH wanted Kenny moved in, giving ROH the possible extra drawing power of Aries coming back, and giving both companies a little bit of buzz from the idea that they were willing to work together.
No one else would have worked for ROH's purposes because no one else is Kenny King's kayfabe mentor. Or maybe it could have worked, but it would have never worked as well. There is more history in Kenny once again taking Aries' advice than in Kenny deciding to start cheating because he lost to Silas Young.

1/2. So who are you replacing Gabe with?
3. Moose may have the ability beforehand, but it was Impact that really let him go all out. Just like saying that it was NXT that let Patrick take his character to the next level. Or NJPW with Juice Robinson. There's still credit that is given to the promotion for discovering assets and letting the wrestlers take advantage.

If you don't want Aries to defeat one of your guys and you won't have someone defeat Aries, then don't book him. If that's what they want to do with Aries, fine, do it, but let's not pretend it's an amazing use of him. But comparing talent value between Aries and Dreamer, seems like Aries was wasted.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 11:13 No one has jumped to ROH since Callis took over because 1) ROH's roster is already stuffed, and 2) they've pretty obviously been waiting to offer their money to Cody/The Bucks/Page/etc, just like they anticipated WWE doing. Now that this Kahn guy and his AEW have jumped in, you're going to see them spending a lot more of it (Brody King, PCO, Tracy Williams).
They shouldn't be spending PPV time on sci-fi/fantasy, and it clashes with the entire rest of the universe.
EC III didn't last in EVOLVE because he couldn't cut the mustard in the ring (if he was ever supposed to be a long-term thing, which I'm not sure he was.
Don't forget that I was watching earlier this year again as well. It's different than what it had been, but it's a different kind of bad. It's like Cornette-booked ROH meets Lucha Underground meets late 1999 WCW meets... something else wacky. It's the Ian Riccaboni of wrestling promotions. It's trying so hard to be this "modernized" version of a preconceived notion of "PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING" that it's just goofy. It's like they're doing GLOW sketches but serious instead of funny. It wants to be a real sporting contest sometimes and other times it's magical stuff and other times it's a soap opera with Eddie Edwards in an insane asylum stuff, and other times they've got f*cking POV shots from the POV of the Powers That Be. All of this stuff cannot coexist on a wrestling show. Some of it can, if you do it right, but not all of it, and they don't do it right, anyway.

Bullet Club BS might have made ROH self-sufficient, but I'll argue until I'm blue in the face that they'd be even more self-sufficient if they had kept being ROH. We're going to find out next year.

I don't know why you think it can't coexist, if it's not your cup of tea, I can understand that, but it doesn't make it a rule. For the last 30-40 years, people have never really had a trouble with a little bit of magic happening in wrestling, Impact has a little bit of everything and everything they do is well executed, but here you are saying Impact should die because you don't like what they do.

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 6th, '18, 14:22

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 5th, '18, 15:13 Because TNA books their titles weakly enough that they don't mean much (maybe except for the world title). If I've only got so much time in my week then why should I care about them going for TNA's meh titles when they hold a bunch of gold elsewhere. What's the draw?
The difference between that and Gabe is that Gabe is not a character. The stories are inherently different with different characters, or else every journey to the title is the same.

They are the most important thing on Impact, so against what do they not mean much? Tessa and LAX's reigns have been pretty strong, the X-Division under Sydal and Cage were well used. What's the draw? The wrestling, the characters, the story, like every other promotion. If championships were the biggest draw, why is EVOLVE not drawing?
If we're talking different character and different journeys, then Impact does a far better job because everyone is really different from each other and they all have different reasons to chase a title

Tessa's run has been okay. Sydal and Cage were good. LAX's run is like Jaka & Dickinson's in EVOLVE. They've had one or two good feuds, but there's no actual division to be champions of.
EVOLVE isn't drawing probably mostly because of a lack of TV, and the NXT house show loop (featuring a bunch of EVOLVE guys) is hurting them in Florida. But EVOLVE's attendances have been going up slowly but steadily.
Aside from the world title, Impact hasn't been doing a particularly great job of building up multiple challengers at the same time (i.e. the same issue ROH has been having for most of the past few years) so everything in between big shows feels like filler, and it's not even filler with good, enhancing detail-work like CHIKARA or LU or wXw would do.

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 6th, '18, 14:22

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 11:13 1 & 2. Haven't I been saying that for a years? Replace the sh*tty bookers. In ROH, in TNA, in WWE, everywhere.
3. It's not work TNA did. Moose didn't get any better on the mic in TNA, just like Keith Lee didn't get any better on the mic in EVOLVE and Lio Rush didn't get any better on the mic in WWE. He just got the chance to show skills that were already there. The time that Flip, Gresham, and some others have gotten shows that Delirious has at least learned a bit from his mistakes (now if only he could figure out how to use promos to actually interface with a story he is telling, as opposed to one Bully Ray or Cody are telling).

Was Aries a means to an end? Yes. But else were you expecting? Someone to actually win the other company's belt? Come on.
This was a politically expedient outcome for all involved that allowed Aries to work some more dates and play up his "belt collector" bit while tell a story that moved Kenny King in the direction ROH wanted Kenny moved in, giving ROH the possible extra drawing power of Aries coming back, and giving both companies a little bit of buzz from the idea that they were willing to work together.
No one else would have worked for ROH's purposes because no one else is Kenny King's kayfabe mentor. Or maybe it could have worked, but it would have never worked as well. There is more history in Kenny once again taking Aries' advice than in Kenny deciding to start cheating because he lost to Silas Young.

1/2. So who are you replacing Gabe with?
3. Moose may have the ability beforehand, but it was Impact that really let him go all out. Just like saying that it was NXT that let Patrick take his character to the next level. Or NJPW with Juice Robinson. There's still credit that is given to the promotion for discovering assets and letting the wrestlers take advantage.

1. Find me a booker who has made more stars in indy wrestling- or even including TNA and modern ROH, and even the British indies over the past sixteen years. There isn't one. The only person who might have had some sort of argument at some point was Ian, but as Gabe himself as pointed out, his hit-rate is way higher than Ian's because Ian would just let anyone show up and wrestle, and sometimes a few of them happened to be really good, but most of them stunk, where as Gabe has had very few- if any- real misses. The only one that springs to mind is Vordell Walter, and that was more of an attitude problem than anything else. Gabe is the guy that takes the vanillas midgets having **** matches and books them in programs that bring out their personalities and allow them to start having ***** matches (and don't even bring up Dave's ratings. If post-2012 "New Jizz in my Pants Wrestling" Dave Meltzer was around for the previous decade, we'd have seen a million more ***** matches coming out of ROH, NOAH, and big Shawn Michaels matches).
3. But Patrick hadn't been doing that character before NXT. Ditto for Juice (although I don't think Gedo is giving him suggestions, just freedom). Moose is still the same Moose he was in ROH. He's just being mic time to show on a regular basis what we only saw in ROH on the rare occasions he was given the chance to talk.

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 6th, '18, 14:22 If you don't want Aries to defeat one of your guys and you won't have someone defeat Aries, then don't book him. If that's what they want to do with Aries, fine, do it, but let's not pretend it's an amazing use of him. But comparing talent value between Aries and Dreamer, seems like Aries was wasted.

It was an amazing use of Aries given the situation, and I think ROH got everything they wanted out of it. If they could have had Aries job cleanly to Kenny they probably would have done that instead and just had Kenny win the TV Title back from Silas. And Aries probably helped get ROH some PPV buys. I don't think Dreamer is doing that for TNA.

cero2k wrote: ↑Dec 6th, '18, 14:22

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '18, 11:13 No one has jumped to ROH since Callis took over because 1) ROH's roster is already stuffed, and 2) they've pretty obviously been waiting to offer their money to Cody/The Bucks/Page/etc, just like they anticipated WWE doing. Now that this Kahn guy and his AEW have jumped in, you're going to see them spending a lot more of it (Brody King, PCO, Tracy Williams).
They shouldn't be spending PPV time on sci-fi/fantasy, and it clashes with the entire rest of the universe.
EC III didn't last in EVOLVE because he couldn't cut the mustard in the ring (if he was ever supposed to be a long-term thing, which I'm not sure he was.
Don't forget that I was watching earlier this year again as well. It's different than what it had been, but it's a different kind of bad. It's like Cornette-booked ROH meets Lucha Underground meets late 1999 WCW meets... something else wacky. It's the Ian Riccaboni of wrestling promotions. It's trying so hard to be this "modernized" version of a preconceived notion of "PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING" that it's just goofy. It's like they're doing GLOW sketches but serious instead of funny. It wants to be a real sporting contest sometimes and other times it's magical stuff and other times it's a soap opera with Eddie Edwards in an insane asylum stuff, and other times they've got f*cking POV shots from the POV of the Powers That Be. All of this stuff cannot coexist on a wrestling show. Some of it can, if you do it right, but not all of it, and they don't do it right, anyway.

Bullet Club BS might have made ROH self-sufficient, but I'll argue until I'm blue in the face that they'd be even more self-sufficient if they had kept being ROH. We're going to find out next year.

I don't know why you think it can't coexist, if it's not your cup of tea, I can understand that, but it doesn't make it a rule. For the last 30-40 years, people have never really had a trouble with a little bit of magic happening in wrestling, Impact has a little bit of everything and everything they do is well executed, but here you are saying Impact should die because you don't like what they do.

Some people haven't had trouble with magic, but the vast majority have usually found it hokey. The great thing about the modern indy scene is that we have places like LU and CHIKARA that are universes that support that. Keep that stuff there. Magic inherently causes logical problems (like why doesn't heel Bray Wyatt just teleport out of the ring and win every cage match?) so it should be avoided unless you can come up with a reason they can't (like maybe there is something sacred about the confines of a wrestling ring that prevents magic from happening in the ring- but then you have to stick with that reason and can't have guys teleporting into it whenever you want).
Magic (and similar things) also seem to inherently breed creative laziness unless you're someone like Mike Quackenbush. The Final Deletion was great. The stuff with Decay or WWE's attempts at it have been terrible. Why? Because the idiots in charge inevitably say "everyone loved this and the thing that made this different from the regular wrestling is the 'cool stuff/stunts/whatever' so let's just do that next time, and it then ceases to be pro wrestling and instead it's just a stunt show where people are doing things because it looks cool and with no tangible, understandable objective or end-point. The stunts/special effects are the equivalent of high-spots in a match. A match that's all high-spots is just a spotfest. This is essentially a spotfest... but without there even being a wrestling ring or clear win condition. A bunch of people taking turns doing flips isn't a wrestling match; it's gymnastics. This isn't pro wrestling; it's a literal stunt-show/special effects thing.
You can have Allie go into hell to rescue Kiera's soul and you can do all of the stunts you and special effects you want and you can build it up as well as you want and you can execute it perfectly... but it's the equivalent of an Oscar-winning version of Santo Contra los Zombis. It might be really awesome, but it's not pro wrestling, and when I tune in to a pro wrestling show, I'm doing so because I want to see pro wrestling.

As for TNA overall... TNA's sh*tty decision-making is the reason WWE is able to do all of the things they do that everyone hates. If TNA hadn't f*cked up OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, there could have been a second viable wrestling company in the 2000s. If Dixie Carter gives her money to ROH instead of TNA, WWE would have a major domestic competitor right now. TNA should have been dead years ago but they keep getting second and third and fourth and fifth and sixth and seventh chances, and each time, they can't f*cking help but do the same dumb sh*t over and over again.
It hasn't even been two months since they decided that the best thing to do in the main event of their biggest PPV of year that they've been building to for months is "worked shoot, brother!" How many f*cking invasions and ECW reunions and WCW tribute acts and top heel stables that always lead to f*ck finishes and even more invasions and even more f*ck finishes am I supposed to wait around for? It doesn't matter if they look like they're righting the sh*t for a while because they always go back to being TNA.