Back in the day, WWE utilized OVW, and later FCW, as developmental territories. Kept away from public eye, you really had to go out of your way to see what WWE had brewing in the prep kitchen. But, for a few years, they also used they're reboot of ECW as a third official brand. Seen as it's own "brand", not on par with Raw or Smackdown, but it's own thing that would crossover to the other two shows periodically.

I think we're to that point once again. But not another ECW reboot, not an NXT upgrade, but a new brand. Along the lines of ECW's concept, but under a new name. Along the lines of NXT, but less "developmental" and more "doesn't belong in developmental". A place for Gargano, Ciampa, and Strong to go where they won't be buried. A place where Cesaro or Owens could pop in for a few weeks and give us some dream matches. A place where a Drew McIntyre, or Cody Rhodes, or Chad Gable could go to redefine themselves without leaving the company. A place where streaks and pasts could be recognized later on and not dismissed as "well... that was developmental..."

Triple H has mentioned several times that he'd like to treat NXT more like an indy, traveling his guys, cross-promoting. That sounds AMAZING, but you DON'T DO THAT with developmental! You do that here, and they COULD! You're developmental should not be selling PPV's! They're "developing"... it's not supposed to be a finished product. NXT should be WAY more Dakota Kai and Toothy Hawaiin Guy, and less Kairi Sane and EC3.

THIS show get's that Saturday TakeOver spot every three months, and a match on the co-branded ppvs. This show is the segway from the independents to the WWE Universe. Whether it's a Network Exclusive or sold to Fox (instead of NXT) it needs to happen.

I think that's what 205 live will be once hunter builds its ability to tour. It would need to tape NXT style (,meaning a month at a time. They don't have to tape in a "home building"). Once hunter builds up the names he already has, then adds names Ricochet to the mix, I think they'll be able to draw moderately well.

but 205Live is still limited as the cruiserweight division, that is not really a third brand, it's a show to make sure the, and i quote dozer, Vanilla midgets don't get in the way of the heavyweights.

cero2k wrote: ↑Sep 23rd, '18, 16:54 but 205Live is still limited as the cruiserweight division, that is not really a third brand, it's a show to make sure the, and i quote dozer, Vanilla midgets don't get in the way of the heavyweights.

This.

I'm talking, 2 hours of basically what NXT is now (the championship side of the roster) with 205 guys and some "creative has nothing for you" main roster guys mixed in. A touring brand of it's own, modeled after an Indy but on a WWE budget. More focused on in-ring stuff, like what I think Smackdown was supposed to be, but without Vince. Someplace somebody like Kalisto could tear up for a few months and show up on Smackdown to challenge AJ Styles. A place Lars Sullivan could terrorize before making a main roster debut with some credibility. A place where Adam Cole can be Adam Cole... if that makes any sense. A show for the grown-ups.

Successful implementation would see these guys not quite on-par with Raw/Smackdown in the grand scheme of things, but the feeling would be anyone from those two shows would get eaten alive if they showed up. Like RVD vs Cena at One Night Stand... "Roman Reigns is Roman Reigns, but Aleister Black would kick the shit out of him if he ever showed up here." Dean Ambrose would be the PERFECT face of this show... just more Moxley and less Ambrose...

Bob-O wrote: ↑Sep 24th, '18, 18:30 This.

I'm talking, 2 hours of basically what NXT is now (the championship side of the roster) with 205 guys and some "creative has nothing for you" main roster guys mixed in. A touring brand of it's own, modeled after an Indy but on a WWE budget. More focused on in-ring stuff, like what I think Smackdown was supposed to be, but without Vince. Someplace somebody like Kalisto could tear up for a few months and show up on Smackdown to challenge AJ Styles. A place Lars Sullivan could terrorize before making a main roster debut with some credibility. A place where Adam Cole can be Adam Cole... if that makes any sense. A show for the grown-ups.

Successful implementation would see these guys not quite on-par with Raw/Smackdown in the grand scheme of things, but the feeling would be anyone from those two shows would get eaten alive if they showed up. Like RVD vs Cena at One Night Stand... "Roman Reigns is Roman Reigns, but Aleister Black would kick the shit out of him if he ever showed up here." Dean Ambrose would be the PERFECT face of this show... just more Moxley and less Ambrose...

if WWE's move into monopolizing wrestling goes according to them, they wouldn't need to create a new brand, they simply need to work better with those indies they already subdued (EVOLVE, PROGRESS, ICW, NOAH soon enough), and make an effort to keep the WWE fanbase aware of the existence of these promotions without forcing you to watch them, just like NXT. All those promotions are perfectly capable of doing their thing, creating their own money, so WWE just needs to send in a few bucks, send whatever wrestlers they want and instructions on where they want to take those wrestlers, and then just make the shows available via the Network.

I mean yeah...who needs Mustafa Ali and Drew Gulak when you have killers like Lashley and Strowman?

cero2k wrote: ↑Sep 24th, '18, 18:45 if WWE's move into monopolizing wrestling goes according to them, they wouldn't need to create a new brand, they simply need to work better with those indies they already subdued (EVOLVE, PROGRESS, ICW, NOAH soon enough), and make an effort to keep the WWE fanbase aware of the existence of these promotions without forcing you to watch them, just like NXT. All those promotions are perfectly capable of doing their thing, creating their own money, so WWE just needs to send in a few bucks, send whatever wrestlers they want and instructions on where they want to take those wrestlers, and then just make the shows available via the Network.

I get this, and I see the groundwork already, but that's essentially what they've got in NXT right now. My issue is that there's no middle ground. The disconnect between NXT and WWE's "partner" indies and Raw/Smackdown is so huge. We're used to seeing guys go from the indies to nxt, and vice verse, but it does nothing to bridge the gap. THIS would. THIS is the branch that you loan your guys from, THIS is the brand that hosts the CWC, NOT developmental!

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Sep 24th, '18, 21:03 I mean yeah...who needs Mustafa Ali and Drew Gulak when you have killers like Lashley and Strowman?

Each course has it's own utensil, I'm not trying to cut my steak with my salad fork, but I feel like Ali and Gulak should have a chance at being part of the main course.

Bob-O wrote: ↑Sep 24th, '18, 18:30

cero2k wrote: ↑Sep 23rd, '18, 16:54 but 205Live is still limited as the cruiserweight division, that is not really a third brand, it's a show to make sure the, and i quote dozer, Vanilla midgets don't get in the way of the heavyweights.

This.

I'm talking, 2 hours of basically what NXT is now (the championship side of the roster) with 205 guys and some "creative has nothing for you" main roster guys mixed in. A touring brand of it's own, modeled after an Indy but on a WWE budget. More focused on in-ring stuff, like what I think Smackdown was supposed to be, but without Vince. Someplace somebody like Kalisto could tear up for a few months and show up on Smackdown to challenge AJ Styles. A place Lars Sullivan could terrorize before making a main roster debut with some credibility. A place where Adam Cole can be Adam Cole... if that makes any sense. A show for the grown-ups.

Successful implementation would see these guys not quite on-par with Raw/Smackdown in the grand scheme of things, but the feeling would be anyone from those two shows would get eaten alive if they showed up. Like RVD vs Cena at One Night Stand... "Roman Reigns is Roman Reigns, but Aleister Black would kick the shit out of him if he ever showed up here." Dean Ambrose would be the PERFECT face of this show... just more Moxley and less Ambrose...

They could easily turn 205 Live into this at the drop of a hat, though. It's on the Network not TV, so if they decide that they want it to tape on its own and be two hours then they could do that.
I see what you're saying about Ambrose, Black, etc., and that basically is what NXT is. They could easily make that a two-hour show as well by taping two, two-hour shows every two weeks rather than four one-hour shows every four weeks. The real "developmental" territory (for the most part) are the NXT Florida house shows.

They need Brian Cage.

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Sep 26th, '18, 10:34 They need Brian Cage.

they'd totally waste him just like Bobby Lashley

Probably. Maybe Lio Rush means he's actually finally going somewhere.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Sep 26th, '18, 09:49 They could easily turn 205 Live into this at the drop of a hat

Except they'd have to forget what the "205" in 205 Live means. Which, I guess is whatever, since they forgot what the "Live" in 205 Live means. They never did know what the 'n', the 'x', or the 't' stood for in NXT,.. they've never been tailored for any sort of ocd, so with that in mind; I'll agree. They could easily convert 205 Live into an all encompassing brand.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Sep 26th, '18, 09:49 I see what you're saying about Ambrose, Black, etc., and that basically is what NXT is

Basically, yes, but it doesn't serve the purpose. NXT is designed for high turnover. We enjoy it, but it's hard to get overly invested in anyone because you never know when they're going to get called up... which would be OK if there was some acknowledgement of where they came from. When these guys/gals DO get called up it's treated as a fresh start, which works for guys like Elias, but not so much for say Dillinger, who was CRAZY over when he was called up.

WWE needs to have a developmental system in place, beyond Florida house shows. But they're also SO inflated right now that they're just pissing money away, and so much potential for an awesome show, by sitting on these guys or holding them back because 5 hours isn't enough time to get everything in.

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Sep 26th, '18, 11:14 Probably. Maybe Lio Rush means he's actually finally going somewhere.

Haha! Vince didn't even know Lio worked there until 3 weeks ago. Somebody (I think Meltzer) said somebody showed Vince one of Lio's promos (you know, because Vince doesn't watch his own product), and Vince really liked it and wanted to "work him into Raw somehow".

So yeah... I mean... maybe Lashley will finally go somewhere, but not because there were any sort of plans for him...

Bob-O wrote: ↑Sep 26th, '18, 16:24
Basically, yes, but it doesn't serve the purpose. NXT is designed for high turnover. We enjoy it, but it's hard to get overly invested in anyone because you never know when they're going to get called up... which would be OK if there was some acknowledgement of where they came from. When these guys/gals DO get called up it's treated as a fresh start, which works for guys like Elias, but not so much for say Dillinger, who was CRAZY over when he was called up.

I do see the gap here, but i totally blame it on WWE's main roster competence to book. It's not like 5 years ago that NXT was still this hidden niche, now it's as big if not more than Smackdown or even RAW, if anyone is not watching NXT is not due to it being hidden, so if there is already the exposure, what's the problem? well, it's fucking booking.

The one thing you mention here is that you can't get invested on a temporal guy, but that's where this shouldn't be an issue with competent booking, because there is no reason why American Alpha couldn't continue their story in the main roster as Sami Zayn vs Owens. You shouldn't feel that 'moving up' is the end of such and such stories in NXT, it should just be seen as it will continue in the other show, like a draft, not a promotion. I'm not gonna say that i won't get invested in Styles right now, because maybe he'll get drafted to RAW.

Maybe NXT is a lost cause because everyone but Triple H sees it as developmental, but there's no reason why good booking could just take the Bayley boom and explode it in a bigger stage, likewise, there's no reason why Ziggler doing an NXT quarter vs someone should be seen as a demotion.

cero2k wrote: ↑Sep 26th, '18, 17:03 there is no reason why American Alpha couldn't continue their story in the main roster as Sami Zayn vs Owens.

That's awesome that you brought that up. When I was writing that it dawned on me that Owens, and a lesser extent Sami, was the last time I feel like they got it right. Not saying that the call-ups of Nakamura and Joe were bad, but Owens showing up on Raw with the NXT Belt challenging Cena for the US Title. THAT'S how it's done. It put NXT in a category that they could take two different ways: NXT Title = IC/US Title or NXT Champion = Credible Non-Champion Cena Challenger. It put a value on it. It made it relevant.

Bob-O wrote: ↑Sep 26th, '18, 20:33
That's awesome that you brought that up. When I was writing that it dawned on me that Owens, and a lesser extent Sami, was the last time I feel like they got it right. Not saying that the call-ups of Nakamura and Joe were bad, but Owens showing up on Raw with the NXT Belt challenging Cena for the US Title. THAT'S how it's done. It put NXT in a category that they could take two different ways: NXT Title = IC/US Title or NXT Champion = Credible Non-Champion Cena Challenger. It put a value on it. It made it relevant.

I think Asuka continuing the streak was ok, it didn't go anywhere, but it was ok. Nak and Joe, idk haha

cero2k wrote: ↑Sep 26th, '18, 20:59 I think Asuka continuing the streak was ok, it didn't go anywhere, but it was ok. Nak and Joe, idk haha

I'm just saying Joe and Nak were NXT champions and have been in main story-lines ever since. They succeeded on the main roster, so it's hard to argue with how their transitions were handled. Their spots had nothing to do with NXT.

It's just the things that they conveniently forget. Bobby Roode, for example, defeated Nakamura for the NXT championship... this is something they could refer back to in an effort to help Roode out, but they won't do that. Success in NXT doesn't matter in the big picture, and it should (see: Owens challenging Cena). I don't think Elias had a single win on NXT, but he's inserted into the upper-midcard almost immediately.

I mean, I get it, small crowd/big crowd stuff. But that's just it. NXT is self serving, making the best show they can with who they have to work with at the time. Granted, they aren't plucking guys mid-angle anymore like in OVW, but it's a cloud that looms over every amazing thing they do... it just doesn't matter. Johnny and Ciampa can have as many epic matches as they want, it's not getting them anywhere. How much better would that feud be if it took place on a 3rd RECOGNIZED brand!? What happens in NXT, STAYS in NXT. Blame booking or writing or whatever, but even more so than the WWECW days, their roster is so stacked that they need another outlet. One in America. It's literally money left on the table.

Bob-O wrote: ↑Sep 29th, '18, 09:37

cero2k wrote: ↑Sep 26th, '18, 20:59 I think Asuka continuing the streak was ok, it didn't go anywhere, but it was ok. Nak and Joe, idk haha

I'm just saying Joe and Nak were NXT champions and have been in main story-lines ever since. They succeeded on the main roster, so it's hard to argue with how their transitions were handled. Their spots had nothing to do with NXT.

It's just the things that they conveniently forget. Bobby Roode, for example, defeated Nakamura for the NXT championship... this is something they could refer back to in an effort to help Roode out, but they won't do that. Success in NXT doesn't matter in the big picture, and it should (see: Owens challenging Cena). I don't think Elias had a single win on NXT, but he's inserted into the upper-midcard almost immediately.

I mean, I get it, small crowd/big crowd stuff. But that's just it. NXT is self serving, making the best show they can with who they have to work with at the time. Granted, they aren't plucking guys mid-angle anymore like in OVW, but it's a cloud that looms over every amazing thing they do... it just doesn't matter. Johnny and Ciampa can have as many epic matches as they want, it's not getting them anywhere. How much better would that feud be if it took place on a 3rd RECOGNIZED brand!? What happens in NXT, STAYS in NXT. Blame booking or writing or whatever, but even more so than the WWECW days, their roster is so stacked that they need another outlet. One in America. It's literally money left on the table.

It is all on the booking. These problems could be fixed (my idea to continue the Ciampa vs. Gargano feud without invalidating the Loser Leaves NXT stip of the match Gargano lost was to have Gargano get moved up to 205 Live and have Ciampa go after him there as well because that's a BS reason for a promotion [but it;s also similarly BS that Johnny had to leave NXT due to Ciampa's interference rather than losing cleanly]), but Vince does what Vince wants. It's standard WWE (i.e. Vince) fare that "stuff that happens elsewhere doesn't matter until we say it does." It's sh*tty, but it's not new. Unless Vince starts to hand over more real control to Hunter, this won't change.
(And I wouldn't expect him to hand Hunter more control, either. 205 Live Hunter could probably get away with due to the combination of the Enzo issue meaning the show needed to be totally rebuilt and Vince just not caring about Cruiserweights. I doubt Vince would give Hunter control of a "main roster" brand, and if he did, I'm sure Vince would feel the urge to stick his hands in it the moment it started to get over more than Vince's personal playground for people who are large and/or good-looking. Vince will never know what to do with someone like Sami Zayn or Bayley or Pete Dunne or Roderick Strong or Chad Gable, he'll always lose interest in a guy like Ricochet after a while, he'll always turn someone like Nikki Cross into a goofball eventually, and he'll always chose Dana Brooke over Killer Kelly.)

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Sep 29th, '18, 18:46 It is all on the booking.

Of course it is, EVERYTHING is. But they're still shoving 10lbs of shit in a 5lb bag! Let's say, hypothetically, the booking is fixed. Vince does what everyone said he'd never do while still alive, and hands the keys over to Hunter. Hypothetically now...

What happens? By going with the general IWC understanding...

RAW
-The focus is off of Roman. Easy enough.
-Lesnar and Cena are unstoppable, for dream match purposes, but not given title opportunities. Fair enough.
-AOP are unstoppable monsters, as are The Ascension despite being much smaller, and The Revival are champions who also cannot be beaten.
-Rollins, Reigns, Ambrose, Lashley, Roode, Wyatt, Strowman, Owens, Balor, McIntyre, and Elias are all main eventing and face of the company, involved in amazing and intricate angles with one another. Tyler Breeze and Chad Gable are also receiving massive pushes to get into that group as well, and let's throw Goldust in there too, because there's a movement for him to have a run at the top before he retires.
-Bailey and Sasha are getting 20 minute matches every week, trading the title back and forth with Rousey, while Alexa Bliss sits naked at ringside and The Bella Twins come out for 10 minutes as a live mic is passed around the crowd for people to yell at them.
-Women's Tag Titles.
-We're going to find room here for Bro, EC3, War Raiders, The Street Prophets and Lars Sullivan to be heavily featured and pushed too. Let's not forget Velveteen Dream, who needs to be poised as the next face of the company.
-While maintaining the positions of everyone listed here, we're going to bring in Kenny Omega and The Young Bucks and put them over everyone coming in the door.

SMACKDOWN
-Not so bad as is...
-AJ is unstoppable, undisputed WHC, and face of the brand. He's the face of Raw somehow, too.
-So is Daniel Bryan.
-So is Cesaro.
-So is Pete Dunn
-The New Day breaks up, imediately.
-205 Live is incorporated into this main roster, despite Raw being an hour longer.
-Samoa Joe, Nakamura, Cedric, Jeff Hardy, Almas, Sheamus, Kalisto, Big E, Rusev, Mustafa Ali, Gulak, Orton and Kofi Kingston all main eventing.
-Dillinger gets a huge push toward this elite company, and what the hell, so does Shelton and R-Truth because they've been mismanaged for years.
-Gallows and Anderson are unstoppable, as are the Colons. Meaning, the Bludgeon Brothers, the Bar, and the Usos never win ever again. Nobody cares.
-The New Day never breaks up. Ever.
-Every match is at least 10 minutes long.
-Sanity ruins a match every episode, and fuck it, they're main eventing too.
-Asuke is no longer defeated, she resumes being UNdefeated.
-Charlotte breaks Becky Lynch's neck, she returns to feud with Stephanie McMahon. Oh Hell Yeah!
-The rest of the Smackdown Ladies Roster goes back to NXT, Nikki Cross is called up to join Sanity. There's nobody left for her to work with, but she's there. Where she belongs.
-Also going to find room to heavily feature and push Aleister Black, Gargano, Ciampa, Ricochet, Undisputed Era, TM61, and the new big black guy.
-Also Women's Tag Titles.

Not sure which show Sane, Baszler, Evans, Candice, and Belair wind up on, but we can't mismanage them either. Pushes! Pushes for everyone!

Brands are getting their own PPV's again, but they still need to start at 6pm, because we can't leave anyone off the card and matches are 15 minutes minimum. No more pre-shows. Pre-show = Burial. We can't do that to anyone!

Wrestlemania actually works out pretty well! With both brands featured, they can just start the main show Saturday night up against ROH/NJPW in The Garden and run strait through Sunday. Everybody gets featured! Bigger! Better! LONGER!


I don't know about all that...

What Hunter gets that Vince doesn't is how to cycle people up and down the card. Yes, a lot more people will get pushes, but Hunter understands how to manage things so that the pushes aren't all happening at the same time and can stack up on each other. It's not about being pushed as in winning everything. It's about being pushed as in having your matches feel important and having a story being told with you. Hunter understands how to use a loss to move a story forward; Vince doesn't.

As for the idea that there is an overabundance of talent and not enough time to feature all of them, I'm not going to say that it's wrong, but I think this problem also exists in New Japan and no one seems to have a problem with it. Also, with Hunter in charge, I think we would get a third brand. NXT UK is basically a fourth brand. They're not really doing "developmental" stuff there the way they do in Florida. He'll use the resources available to him to figure out how to get another brand.