OPENING SEGMENT- Part one was fine, part two was bad
Roman comes out to start things off. The reaction is about 65-35 against him. There is a new Shield shirt out (of course) that is using the Suplex City “name the city on the shirt” gimmick. He called Brain a “meat shack” and demanded that he come out to face him. Brain did, in fact, come out, and responded to Roman’s claim about being a “workhorse” by saying that last week when Braun was going to cash in MITB, t was Roman’s Shield buddies doing the work to save Roman from the cash-in.
Roman responded to this not by pointing out that Braun was being a coward by waiting until after Roman had already wrestled a twenty-minute match to cash in MITB, but instead by cutting a smug-ass promo that can be summed up as “I’m a champion and you’re not. Na nana poo-poo.” I don’t know if Roman is coming up with this stuff on his own or if it is being written for him, but whoever is coming up with this stuff needs to be replaced ASAP. Roman started this condescending lecture by saying that Seth and Dean were totally justified in stopping Braun from cashing in in because “they’ve been where I am” (AKA world champion) and concluded it by telling Braun that if he were a real man he would cash in MITB. That’s exactly what he tried to do last week but your friends stopped him, you f*ck-head!
Of course, Roman’s speech was intended to set up the spot where Roman gets cheered for suggesting that Braun cash in MITB and we get a Universal Title match right here tonight in Toronto- thus getting cheers- while Braun refused to do so and was thus booed even though Braun’s reasoning- he has no assurances that Seth & Dean won’t screw him out of the match and save Roman’s ass again- is completely justified. Braun instead declares that he will wait until September 16th to cash in at Hell in a Cell where Seth and Dean can’t get involved.
Roman offers a handshake, and there is a tense moment between them before Braun accepts it… and then another tense moment where it seems like Braun won’t let go and Roman is trying not to sell it. That was an excellent way to cap off this segment.
And then Dolph Ziggler had to come out and keep the segment going, because it wouldn’t be a real Raw opening segment if we didn’t have some kind of forced confrontation to set up a match for later because the authority figure is too lazy to do his/her job and have matches book for Raw’s big stars before the show goes on the air.
Dolph and Drew come out and Dolph starts to run his annoying mouth. I cannot wait for the day that McIntyre gets tired of this obnoxious little turd and Claymore Kick’s his head into the fifth row. Dolph is upset that he (w/Drew) lost the IC Title to Seth (w/Dean) at SummerSlam, and so he has decided to come out here eight days later and complain to Roman about it? Dolph also seems to be having some memory problems, as he said that “later that night” Seth and Dean saved Roman’s title for him, except that the aforementioned saving actually happened on Raw the next night.
Roman makes a comment about Dolph’s claim that the title was “stolen” from him, to which Dolph responds by insisting that when he invokes his rematch clause, “it will be on my terms,” which has to be one of the most hackneyed and annoying phrases in wrestling. That is made even more clear in this segment, which started off with Braun actually having an “I’m going to do this on my terms” speech in which he didn’t ever once have to use that phrase. Dolph’s use of it here, in contrast, reveals “I’m going to do it on my terms” is a phrase that writers use as a substitute for doing the work of coming up with actual reasons for a heel to put off doing something until the plot demands it.
Dolph continued rambling, spouting out random clichéd platitudes about himself and Drew. They got a great shot of Roman looking both annoyed at Dolph’s blabbering and also confused as to why Dolph was saying all of this to him and Braun, which basically mirrors my own feelings at the moment. Then Drew got to talk and finally something relevant was being said. It turns out that Dolph and Drew want to wrestle them in a tag team match tonight. Please note how Drew said more in two or three sentences than Dolph said in five times that.
Roman says that if they want to fight, they should come into the ring and fight. Acting General Manager Corbin came out and said that Braun’s MITB cash-in has been “approved” for Hell in a Cell. I assume he means that “Hell in a Cell Match” part, otherwise this statement would make no sense because the whole point of MITB is that it doesn’t have to be “approved.” He also said he was giving us a main event that both “Krt Angle could never dream of” and that would also “take Raw to the next level.” OMFG GUYS CREATIVE FINALLY GOT MY E-MAILS AND WE’RE GETTING SHIELD VS. REVIVAL & CHAD GABLE!
Wait. No. It’s Roman & Braun vs. Drew & Dolph. Well… at least the Drew vs. opponent parts of that sound good. Braun got to cut a pat promo where he said he would take Roman’s title at HIAC but tonight it is Dolph & Drew who will “get these hands.” That catchphrase is so dumb.

The segment is finally over and we pitch to the announc- Corbin interrupts them and starts talking again. What the f*ck? Corbin books himself vs. Balor, flat-out admitting that he has known he would do this for a week while Balor hasn’t had any time to prepare. I thought this part was well-done, and is probably the best performance on the mic of Corbin’s entire career.
Then we cut to a commercial… and when we got back, the match was only just starting. Wouldn’t it have made more sense, based on Corbin’s promo, for the match to have started ASAP (i.e. during the break)? And also for Corbin to have come out in his wrestling gear rather than his dorky constabular street clothes outfit.

FINN BALOR vs. BAROBIN CORBIN- 4/10
Cole recounted to us how Balor wrestled an “all-time classic” (or some other such lofty phraseology) last week. Coach then quietly insisted that “it was a five star” and then stopped before he said the word match. My bet is that he stopped because Vince was screaming in his ear for using that phrase (that was on the banned list, wasn’t it?).
Corey Graves praised Corbin for booking the two matches that he did during the opening segment. Cole responded by saying that it wasn’t very impressive because the challenges were already made so it’s not like Corbin “thought them up out of thin air.” Cole’s not wrong, but that hasn’t stopped him and other announcers for praising babyface authority figures for doing the same thing.
They did stuff for a while. Corbin got frustrated and hit Balor with a chair for the DQ. Then he said he forgot to tell everyone that this was a no DQs match and had it restarted, hit Balor with the chair and with the End of Days, then pinned him for the win… so this annoying feud will continue. It has been going on for TWO AND A HALF MONTHS, AND THE STORY HAS NOT MOVED FORWARD ONE BIT.

Things advertised for tonight:
1. Nattie (w/Ronda) vs. Fox (w/Alexa)
2. B-Team vs. The Revival
3. An Elias Concert
Are you tell me the only matches Corbin had signed before Raw went on the air was sh*t we’ve already seen a million times in the past month and yet another Alexa vs. Ronda proxy match?
If I wanted to give WWE credit I would point out that this does retroactively make Steph a hypocrite for all of that bullsh*t she spouted about how Kurt was disgracing Raw last year when they got attacked by Smackdown because he was failing at the important responsibility of making WWE’s flagship show the best it could be and yet now that Corbin is booking the same crap we’ve seen for a month, she doesn’t care, but I’d bet a lot of money that the actual case is that they haven’t thought one bit about that, and that they actually think people aren’t sick and f*cking tired of seeing the same sh*t over and over and over again.


LEGENDS WEIGH IN ON TAKER VS. TRIPLE H AT WWE SUPER SHOW-DOWN- the usual generic filler you’d expect. They’re advertising more filler for next week’s show courtesy of Shawn Michaels showing up to talk about this match. To be honest the thought running through my head during most of this video package was why they have “Show-Down” hyphenated when “showdown” is a word without the hyphen. Also, wouldn’t “Super Show Down Under” be a much better name?


TITUS WORLDWIDE BACKSTAGE- goofy
This started off with just Dana Brooke and Apollo Crews, and boy were they having one hell of a conversation. Dana wanted to work on “flips” but Apollo advised her to “stick to the fundamentals.” Apollo told her that Titus was working on getting her booked in a match tonight so that she can prove that she deserves a spot on WWE’s first-ever all-women PPV, Evolution. They’ve been proudly advertising that there will be FIFTY women on the show. Even if we count every single woman on the main roster, AND the NXT TV crew, AND the NXT UK crew, Tamina (who is currently injured), Vega (primarily a manager), Maryse and Maria (even more primarily managers than Vega), Steph, plus Trish and Lita (who are on the poster) that’s only fifty-one right there. And yet Dana Brooke isn’t sure if she’ll get booked and needs to prove herself. In other words, Dana Brooke, who is ON THE MAIN ROSTER, is so low on the totem pole that she is at risk of losing her spot on the PPV to managers, authority figures, and women in developmental.
Titus shows up and reveals that Sasha’s match is next, and that she’ll be wrestling Sasha Banks. Dana leaves, excitedly, at which point Crews points out to Titus that Dana has only had one singles match all year, and that this is a mere “warm-up match” for Sasha. So now even her own teammate is telling us that she sucks. Titus says he believes her in her, just like he believes in Crews.

SASHA BANKS (w/Bayley) vs. DANA BROOKE (w/Titus Worldwide)- 0.5/10
Dana lost clean in two and a half minutes. What a loser.

DEAN AMBROSE & JINDER MAHAL (& SUNIL SINGH) BACKSTAGE- bad
Jinder says he senses great anger in Dean, but offers to help him get over this anger so he can learn to become a Jedi. Dean tells him to f*ck off. We always get these segments with Jinder and a babyface, and never once does the babyface just say “thank you for the offer, Jinder, but I’m not interested.” They’re always just gigantic assholes to him. Do these babyfaces curse at Jehovah’s witnesses or door-to-door salespeople or political canvassers, too?

SETH ROLLINS PROMO- He, too, isn’t booked in a match tonight, so he wants to put his title on the line in an open challenge. It’s answered by Kevin Owens, who obviously gets a huge pop here in Canada. He then gets a bigger one for mentioning Sami Zayn and he vows to win the IC Title tonight in what felt like a complete and total babyface promo… until he masterfully turned it on his head and said that Montreal was better than Toronto, theoretically setting him up as a heel for this…

WWE INTERCONTINENTAL TITLE MATCH: Seth Rollins(c) vs. Kevin Owens- 8.75/10
These two had an AWESOME match, with Owens working over Rollins’ arm, forcing Rollins to rely more on his feet. They had a lot of great false finishes (including a STUNNER, which I’m sure got an interesting reaction backstage), and they built to one hell of a finishing sequence.

After this match was over Cole said “I have to give it to our acting general manager, Baron Corbin: it has been quite the night already here on Monday Night Raw.” Wasn’t it you who was criticizing him just an hour ago for only booking matches the wrestlers had made themselves? Well since then all we’ve had is this match- which the wrestlers made themselves- and Titus O’Neil coming to him to try to get Dana Brooke booked in a match. How is any improvement?

BRAUN & CORBIN BACKSTAGE- pointless
Now that he’s the GM, Corbin was, of course, futzing around on his phone when Braun came up to him. Braun gave him the MITB briefcase to make the cash-in at Hell in a Cell official. Has this ever happened before? Every time someone has announced their cash-in date in advance, I have memories of them still carrying the briefcase around with them and turning it in to the referee right before the match.

KEVIN OWENS PROMO- He has been sitting in the ring ever since his match with Rollins ended, which was well over ten minutes ago at this point. He sat there quietly for a while, then told us that he is quitting.

RENEE YOUNG INTERVIEWS DOLPH ZIGGLER & DREW MCINTYRE- GREAT! Even Ziggler was good.

So, for the record, before this week’s Raw went on the air, the number of matches booked for the first hour and thirty-five minutes of the show was ZERO.

THE B-TEAM vs. THE REVIVAL- 3.5/10
They did a spot playing off of last week’s finish, The Revival won, but I’ve got to call BS on this win because there is no way the referee didn’t see that Dash wasn’t holding the tag rope. The Revival attacked The B-Team after the match, then posed with the belts while they cut a great promo on the joke that is the Raw tag division and its goofball champions.

ELIAS & BLONDE FEMALES SEGMENT- good for what it was.
The Drifter did his usual routine of burying the city of the week until he got interrupted by TRISH STRATUS. That’s an odd choice for several reasons. If they’ve got Trish Stratus on the show, you’d think they’d maybe save her for Alexa Bliss!’s segment, no?
They got to have some decent back-and-forth, and Elias is the right kind of heel where even though he’s never shown an ounce of sexism before, they can have him be sexist and have it still feel totally natural (as opposed to just about anyone else on the roster, where it would feel like that wrestler was made a sexist for this one segment because the segment needed someone to be a sexist and he was the one Creative chose to put in that spot).
“Sorry, Trish: I don’t date women in their sixties” was an excellent heel line and at that point Elias had done more than enough that the slap didn’t feel out of place. And speaking of things feeling out of place, Ronda Rousey then decided to come out, followed by Ronda Rousey’s Friend Natalya, because apparently it’s time for their match. That last bit felt totally random.
While I did like this segment, if I were booking it, I would have done things differently. Rather than slapping Elias, I would have had Trish throw a Chick Kick (come on, WWE! It’s the Women’s Evolution now! Why is Trish’s first response still what the old Smackdown games used to refer to as the “Women’s Special Slap?”), and have The Drifter just barely avoid it via the “embarrassingly falling backwards on your ass” method of ducking, then scamper out of the ring, leaving Trish to smash his guitar or something to get the babyface pop and some manner of revenge (and then, if you really feel the need, you can have Ronda and Nattie come out as he is coming up the ramp and have him run through the crowd in fear). Either that, or I would have had Alexa Bliss! and Alicia Fox come out of the crowd and attack Trish from behind after she slapped The Drifter and get some heat for the big PPV match they just plugged, with Ronda and Nattie coming out to make the save, leading into the scheduled Fox vs. Nattie match.

One other thing I feel the need to comment on was Trish’s performance. Not only did everything she said feel completely natural with no WWE bullsh*t, but I loved her delivery. She spoke slowly and softly but still forcefully, and in a way that carried an air of danger to it. She came off as someone who didn’t need to be loud and boisterous and shout-y to prove her point because she knows that she is dangerous and so does everyone else, and she’s fully prepared to back it up if necessary. She came off like a star, but in a different way than we’ve ever seen Trish Stratus before, and it sure as hell makes her stand out. It was basically everything WWE wishes Ronda Rousey would be. And speaking of Ronda…

WOMEN’S SEGMENT- fine
After the commercial break, Trish is still in the ring, just hanging out with Nattie and Ronda. Alexa and Fox came out and Alexa cut a promo on them. Well… mostly just Trish and Ronda. She cut a good promo on Trish, then cut a good promo on Ronda announcing that she’s getting her rematch at Hell in a Cell. She accidentally said “revoke” not “invoke.” She is the second person (Ziggler being the first) to stumble while talking about their contractually-obligated rematch tonight (Dolph said he was “invoking my contract”). Odd.
Alexa then brought out Mickie James as someone who knows Trish very well. That’s… fine, I guess. In kayfabe there probably isn’t anyone who has studied Trish’s matches more than Mickie. At the same time, though, they were never really ever kayfabe friends in the “I know all of your deepest secrets” kind of way. The reveal just didn’t feel like the kind of game-changer I think WWE wanted it to feel like.


NATALYA (w/Ronda Rousey & Trish Stratus) vs. ALICIA FOX (w/Alexa Bliss! & Mickie James)- 0.5/10
Nattie won clean. This match was completely pointless to the point where I think it was actually damaging. It was the same thing we’ve seen several times over the past few weeks except instead of it being just Alexa running away from just Ronda on the outside, now you have Alexa and Mickie running away from Ronda and Trish. Being on the outside for this match between the smallest names of each of their trios made Trish look so pathetically secondary here. She was just another person on the outside. If they had had Nikki Bella or whoever in Trish’s place then literally nothing about this would have been different.
If it was me, I would have changed the match to Nattie vs. Alexa and separated this from the other segment (you can stick Jinder vs. Ambrose in between) and had Trish come out to do commentary (complete with a big entrance, before the other two are in the ring) because she is scouting Alexa for their match. You could then stick Alexa’s promo from earlier in this spot (and I would have held off on the Mickie James return. Then I would have had Alexa beat Nattie CLEAN to build Alexa up for both her rematch with Ronda and her match with Trish (and in addition to making Alexa look strong in the ring, beating Nattie clean gives her promo ammunition for both feuds, the Ronda connection is obvious, and with Trish it’s “I beat an overrated blonde Canadian who has been wrestling every week for the past ten years, so how much trouble am I possibly going to have beating one who hasn’t?”).
And if you don’t like the idea of Nattie losing in her home country right after her father died, then just do the Trish-Alexa angle I proposed above and have Nattie beat someone who isn’t involved in the Alexa/Ronda feud).

NATTIE, TRISH, RONDA, & THE BELLAS BACKSTAGE- This was your involuntary throat-stuffing of forced WWE bullsh*t for the night, and at least 98.5% of it came out of the mouths of the Bellas. This reminded me why they are so popular with the Nickelodeon-age female audience. When they were telling the other three their big news (that they’re wrestling the Riott Squad next week, because apparently Brie is allowed to be on both shows now), they sounded less like colleagues and more like extremely obnoxious teenage fan-girls. Nikki used the word “like” as a placeholder. Can Queen Stephanie please use her magical powers of single-handedly empowering women to empower Nikki to talk like an adult woman and not a valley girl? That seems like something that we should be working on now that our Women’s Evolution is in full swing.

BARON CORBIN & LASHLEY BACKSTAGE- Corbin tells Lashley that he has booked him in a match tonight, but is being a jerk and won’t tell him who. Shockingly, between Corbin’s new shtick of using “I’m so busy I forgot” as a transparent excuse for doing biased things and the WWE-written banter they were forced to engage in, this somehow managed to not be bad. It wasn’t good, either, but it wasn’t bad, and when you consider all of the factors involved, that’s quite the accomplishment.

HANDICAP MATCH: Bobby Lashley vs. The Ascension- 1.25/10
They fought before the bell, but this time for some reason the referee didn’t even try to separate them. Cole is railing about how unfair this is and Corbin is totally abusing his power. This is not wrong, but it’d be more palatable to me if Cole (or anyone other than heel announcer Corey Graves) had ever called it out when our babyface authority figures (particularly Shane and Angle) did biased things.
Lashley won with relative ease.

DEAN AMBORSE vs. JINDER MAHAL (w/Sunil Singh)- 3/10

ROMAN & STROWMAN BACKSTAGE- exactly the sort of tense, clichéd “we must work together tonight and we know that but we’re also going to say threatening things to each other even though we know it serves no purpose just because that’s what is expected of us in a segment like this. The sort of segment that doesn’t actually do anything (we already assume their relationship would be tense), making it a pointless waste of time.

The Revival are getting a title shot next week. It’s will be their third in four weeks.

DOLPH ZIGGLER & DREW MCINTYRE vs. ROMAN REIGNS & BRAUN STROWMAN- 4.5/10
Roman was the babyface in peril. He finally made the hot tag, resulting in the following finish: Braun just stood on the apron. Drew then dragged Roman back into the middle of the ring. Dolph came in, and he and Drew stomped the crap out of Roman while Braun just stood there, until the referee called for the bell to disqualify Drew & Dolph. At least that’s what I assume happened, although Graves claimed that Drew & Dolph “weren’t breaking any rules,” and while this statement is clearly false (there were two of them in the ring for way more than five seconds during a tag team match), Cole’s commentary seemed to imply that Braun was getting in trouble for not entering the ring even though he was legal (shouldn’t the referee just count him out in that case?) and that this was why the referee ordered the bell to be rung.
Braun then got into the ring and attacked Roman. Dolph and Drew looked surprised by this but Braun allowed them to join in on his beat-down. The announcers speculated that this was their evil plan all along. Dean tried to make the save but got beaten up. Seth then came out (with his injured arm being the announcers’ excuse for him not coming out right away) and he got beaten down, too. When Seth or Dean were getting beaten down, the fans booed; when Roman was getting beaten down, they cheered. When the heels just posed together, the crowd was mixed.

This was a very mixed-bag episode of Raw. There was some stuff that was excellent and/or interesting (the IC Title match, whatever is up with Owens) some stuff that I thought was good or even very good but could have been done in a more productive way (the women’s stuff that I went into great detail on above), and a lot of stuff that was just dumb, pointless, or bad. This new heel alliance fighting The Shield does make sense, but at the same time the fact that we won’t get some big PPV match out of it (unless they keep these feuds going after HIAC, which I really don’t want to see) is a kind of disappointing payoff for a match that feels like it has major potential. I guess the best we can hope for is a six-man tag on TV that gets, like, thirty or forty minutes.
(In fact, WWE, I will even do the work for you to show you how you can budget your time to give this match the time it needs:
1. Do whatever you’re going to do in the main women’s feud (20 minutes for the sum total of all talking and wrestling, twenty-five if you want to do something like Alexa beating Nattie in a long match)
2. Corbin books himself & The Ascension vs. Lashley & Balor… & “to make it fair” for the babyfaces Curt Hawkins (heels win, pinning Hawkins) (12 mins)
3. Tag title match (15 mins total, including entrances)
4. Bellas vs. Riott Squad (9 mins)
5. HBK promo (7 mins AT MOST)

Even if we are extra-generous with times for entrances and things maybe going a little long, that’s only eighty-five minutes right there. You can easily give this six-man tag forty of the remaining ninety-five minutes (not even counting the overrun) and still have more than enough time for your recap packages, Drifter concert, whatever follow-up you’re doing with Owens (if you do anything other than a short recap package) and whatever pointless wheel-spinning you decide to engage in with the likes of Sasha, Bayley, Titus Worldwide, the AoP, Jinder, Gable, etc.

been waiting for this review since yesterday. So are we having another discussion on bad booking and how they build up this organic babyface that the fans totally support, Braun Strowman, and then have him turn heel against people's wishes just to put over the Golden Boy ? Not to mention using the second biggest babyface Rollins and what should had been crazy momentum Ambrose, and using them as lackeys coming to the aid of Reigns and most likely, taking the Strowman pins going forward.

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 17:04 been waiting for this review since yesterday. So are we having another discussion on bad booking and how they build up this organic babyface that the fans totally support, Braun Strowman, and then have him turn heel against people's wishes just to put over the Golden Boy ? Not to mention using the second biggest babyface Rollins and what should had been crazy momentum Ambrose, and using them as lackeys coming to the aid of Reigns and most likely, taking the Strowman pins going forward.

I agree with the Strowman thing, but that's nothing new where Roman is concerned. People's criticism of the Becky/Charlotte thing is, IMO, overblown because this is not just the first time anything like that has happened with Charlotte, but this entire "Charlotte is the female Roman" thing seems to have cropped up as a response to the Becky thing, with no one, for example, complaining about Charlotte being added to the match, or anyone really leveling this sort of criticism at the booking before. It was always clear they had favorites (Charlotte, Sasha, Bliss) and that others (Becky and Mickie in particular) were getting short-changed (and Bayley thing is a whole different issue), but there was never this widespread opposition to Charlotte before.
I don't think we have enough evidence for the "turned Seth & Dean into lackeys" argument to hold water. Yet. I'm not saying I don't think it might wind up going there, but so far all that has happened is that 1) they helped their friend when someone was trying to cash in on hi after he had just wrestled a grueling title match, and 2) they tried to save their friend from a three-on-one beat-down.
I'm also not convinced that they're going to feed Seth & Dean to Strowman to build up the Roman match because 1) it makes more sense for Seth to be pinned by Dolph, and 2) they seem perfectly happy to protect people by just doing DQs, so wouldn't they keep doing that here?

Ambrose's lack of momentum, IMO, has more to do with the fact that with Seth being the IC Champ and Roman being the Universal Champ, and the guy who injured him (Joe) now on the other show, he really doesn't have any sort of goal to attain. He can't even go for the tag belts because Seth and Roman are both singles champs, and the only other interesting option (Jason Jordan) is still injured. The best they really can do with Dean right now would be a feud with McIntyre in which neither guy really should be losing, so the feud would be counterproductive. Keeping him hot via a (theoretically) hot Shield reunion is probably the best thing they could have done. They can't even have him demand to be moved to SD to seek out revenge on Joe because Joe is embroiled in a hot feud with AJ.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 18:01

I agree with the Strowman thing, but that's nothing new where Roman is concerned. People's criticism of the Becky/Charlotte thing is, IMO, overblown because this is not just the first time anything like that has happened with Charlotte, but this entire "Charlotte is the female Roman" thing seems to have cropped up as a response to the Becky thing, with no one, for example, complaining about Charlotte being added to the match, or anyone really leveling this sort of criticism at the booking before. It was always clear they had favorites (Charlotte, Sasha, Bliss) and that others (Becky and Mickie in particular) were getting short-changed (and Bayley thing is a whole different issue), but there was never this widespread opposition to Charlotte before.
I don't think we have enough evidence for the "turned Seth & Dean into lackeys" argument to hold water. Yet. I'm not saying I don't think it might wind up going there, but so far all that has happened is that 1) they helped their friend when someone was trying to cash in on hi after he had just wrestled a grueling title match, and 2) they tried to save their friend from a three-on-one beat-down.
I'm also not convinced that they're going to feed Seth & Dean to Strowman to build up the Roman match because 1) it makes more sense for Seth to be pinned by Dolph, and 2) they seem perfectly happy to protect people by just doing DQs, so wouldn't they keep doing that here?

Ambrose's lack of momentum, IMO, has more to do with the fact that with Seth being the IC Champ and Roman being the Universal Champ, and the guy who injured him (Joe) now on the other show, he really doesn't have any sort of goal to attain. He can't even go for the tag belts because Seth and Roman are both singles champs, and the only other interesting option (Jason Jordan) is still injured. The best they really can do with Dean right now would be a feud with McIntyre in which neither guy really should be losing, so the feud would be counterproductive. Keeping him hot via a (theoretically) hot Shield reunion is probably the best thing they could have done. They can't even have him demand to be moved to SD to seek out revenge on Joe because Joe is embroiled in a hot feud with AJ.

Charlotte hasn't been as strong as Reigns, but I've heard a lot of comments with her winning so many titles, defeating Asuka, and pretty much being portrayed as the top woman/horsewoman in the company. A lot of people still love her since she never had a Daniel Bryan until now.

Seth and Ambrose i think they're ok, but it could easily go either way right now, they've barely started, but I have to imagine that there is an impending Shield vs Strowman/Ziggler/Galloway match coming and unless they want to do yet another Rollins vs Ziggler match, either Galloway or Ambrose has to be pinned, and something tells me Galloway should be getting pinned, and just as you said, with Rollins and Reings holding gold, Ambrose does feel like the third spot in the shield right now, while he should have the biggest momentum coming back from injury.

I think it's just a bad idea bringing in the Rollins/Ambrose/Ziggler/Galloway feud into the Strowman vs Reigns feud since the focus will mostly be on Reigns and Strowman even tho the other 4 have a match in HIAC.

I mentioned an example of how damaging Charlotte has been to others just last week with the fact that knocked Asuka into now obscurity, and WHAT has Sasha Banks REALLY accomplished since being defeated by her over and over again? What is she doing now compared to then and how well is she doing now compared to then?

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 18:41 I mentioned an example of how damaging Charlotte has been to others just last week with the fact that knocked Asuka into now obscurity, and WHAT has Sasha Banks REALLY accomplished since being defeated by her over and over again? What is she doing now compared to then and how well is she doing now compared to then?

Neither of those are Charlotte's fault. That's a problem with the bookers not knowing how to follow up with someone after they lose a feud. I could say the same about New Day or the Bludgeon Brothers or whoever.

None of this stuff is ever the wrestler's fault by that logic lol. The same could be said about Reigns then. "Well the way he directly affects others in the grand scheme of booking isn't his fault..."

But that's not really much as far as the general handling of Charlotte. 7 titles in 3 years or less.

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 18:16

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 18:01

I agree with the Strowman thing, but that's nothing new where Roman is concerned. People's criticism of the Becky/Charlotte thing is, IMO, overblown because this is not just the first time anything like that has happened with Charlotte, but this entire "Charlotte is the female Roman" thing seems to have cropped up as a response to the Becky thing, with no one, for example, complaining about Charlotte being added to the match, or anyone really leveling this sort of criticism at the booking before. It was always clear they had favorites (Charlotte, Sasha, Bliss) and that others (Becky and Mickie in particular) were getting short-changed (and Bayley thing is a whole different issue), but there was never this widespread opposition to Charlotte before.
I don't think we have enough evidence for the "turned Seth & Dean into lackeys" argument to hold water. Yet. I'm not saying I don't think it might wind up going there, but so far all that has happened is that 1) they helped their friend when someone was trying to cash in on hi after he had just wrestled a grueling title match, and 2) they tried to save their friend from a three-on-one beat-down.
I'm also not convinced that they're going to feed Seth & Dean to Strowman to build up the Roman match because 1) it makes more sense for Seth to be pinned by Dolph, and 2) they seem perfectly happy to protect people by just doing DQs, so wouldn't they keep doing that here?

Ambrose's lack of momentum, IMO, has more to do with the fact that with Seth being the IC Champ and Roman being the Universal Champ, and the guy who injured him (Joe) now on the other show, he really doesn't have any sort of goal to attain. He can't even go for the tag belts because Seth and Roman are both singles champs, and the only other interesting option (Jason Jordan) is still injured. The best they really can do with Dean right now would be a feud with McIntyre in which neither guy really should be losing, so the feud would be counterproductive. Keeping him hot via a (theoretically) hot Shield reunion is probably the best thing they could have done. They can't even have him demand to be moved to SD to seek out revenge on Joe because Joe is embroiled in a hot feud with AJ.

Charlotte hasn't been as strong as Reigns, but I've heard a lot of comments with her winning so many titles, defeating Asuka, and pretty much being portrayed as the top woman/horsewoman in the company. A lot of people still love her since she never had a Daniel Bryan until now.

Winning too many titles is a charge that has also been leveled at Bliss and Sasha. It's not invalid either, but that's more of a WWE booking thing rather than a "the new Roman" thing. I think a lot of the "top Horsewoman" stuff is more of a result of the Bayley/Sasha winding up being s bad. Have Becky and Bayley been screwed by the company? Absolutely (Bayley more do than Becky, IMO). But there is an alternate universe out there where they book everything about Charlotte the same way and even book Bliss/Jax/Ronda the same way but book Bayley vs. Sasha properly and those two are having a blood-feud all spring and coming out of SummerSlam it's Sasha that is Raw's top heel (getting ready to be fed to Ronda, of course, but what can you do) while Bayley and Alexa are the #2s on their respective sides of a locker room.
As for the Asuka thing, I was one of the first to suggest having Becky be the one to end Asuka's streak because Becky hadn't been given anything since the first title win, but I can completely understand why WWE, with their limited mindset, thought that they needed to beat Asuka sooner rather than later and wanted Charlotte to be the one to do it (because then going into Mania 2019 you've already set up Charlotte as someone who ends undefeated streaks).

What I'm trying to say is that the difference between Charlotte and Roman is that Roman stands above the pack because they have put every effort into pushing Roman up, whereas Charlotte stands above the pack (at least in part) because WWE's incompetence has lowered everyone else down.

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 18:16 Seth and Ambrose i think they're ok, but it could easily go either way right now, they've barely started, but I have to imagine that there is an impending Shield vs Strowman/Ziggler/Galloway match coming and unless they want to do yet another Rollins vs Ziggler match, either Galloway or Ambrose has to be pinned, and something tells me Galloway should be getting pinned, and just as you said, with Rollins and Reings holding gold, Ambrose does feel like the third spot in the shield right now, while he should have the biggest momentum coming back from injury.

I think it's just a bad idea bringing in the Rollins/Ambrose/Ziggler/Galloway feud into the Strowman vs Reigns feud since the focus will mostly be on Reigns and Strowman even tho the other 4 have a match in HIAC.

They're already doing another Rollins vs. Ziggler match (Dolph mentioned invoking his rematch clause in his promo this week). I agree that mixing the feuds in terms of turning Dolph, Drew, & Braun into a three-man unit is not the best idea, but if this just turns out to be "Braun had an evil plan that the other two weren't in on, and it results in a six-man tag being booked for one show" (which is still possible), then I'm fine with it.

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 19:13 None of this stuff is ever the wrestler's fault by that logic lol. The same could be said about Reigns then. "Well the way he directly affects others in the grand scheme of booking isn't his fault..."

But that's not really much as far as the general handling of Charlotte. 7 titles in 3 years or less.

What I mean by that is not that "they pushed the others down to make Charlotte look better." What I mean is that the reasons things have gone poorly for the others after their feuds with Charlotte ended is because WWE is incompetent. The fact that the champion they faced happened to be Charlotte is a coincidence. As I pointed out, you can say the same thing about New Day.

My view of it is actually....if they hadn't knocked the others down to lose to Charlotte in the end...they never would have lost said top spots because they would have won instead and just kept on rolling.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 19:28

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 19:13 None of this stuff is ever the wrestler's fault by that logic lol. The same could be said about Reigns then. "Well the way he directly affects others in the grand scheme of booking isn't his fault..."

But that's not really much as far as the general handling of Charlotte. 7 titles in 3 years or less.

What I mean by that is not that "they pushed the others down to make Charlotte look better." What I mean is that the reasons things have gone poorly for the others after their feuds with Charlotte ended is because WWE is incompetent. The fact that the champion they faced happened to be Charlotte is a coincidence. As I pointed out, you can say the same thing about New Day.

Well yeah, i never really blame Charlotte or even Reigns, they're doing what they're told, they just happen to be the office's chosen guys and thus will be the proxy to the fan's reactions. But that's where I don't think it's a coincidence, it's straight up WWE picking someone who will go over everyone, so that even when they're not champs, they'll look strong. It's not like they allow Charlotte or Reigns or New Day actually to have the same fates as the rest during other people's reigns.

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 19:30 My view of it is actually....if they hadn't knocked the others down to lose to Charlotte in the end...they never would have lost said top spots because they would have won instead and just kept on rolling.

Yeah... but then it'd be Sasha in the top spot and everyone would be complaining that they buried Charlotte and Bayley and Alexa for the sake of Sasha.

Well she's legitimately better and probably more over than them so fuck it...it would be the natural right decision for once.

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 19:46

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 19:28

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 19:13 None of this stuff is ever the wrestler's fault by that logic lol. The same could be said about Reigns then. "Well the way he directly affects others in the grand scheme of booking isn't his fault..."

But that's not really much as far as the general handling of Charlotte. 7 titles in 3 years or less.

What I mean by that is not that "they pushed the others down to make Charlotte look better." What I mean is that the reasons things have gone poorly for the others after their feuds with Charlotte ended is because WWE is incompetent. The fact that the champion they faced happened to be Charlotte is a coincidence. As I pointed out, you can say the same thing about New Day.

Well yeah, i never really blame Charlotte or even Reigns, they're doing what they're told, they just happen to be the office's chosen guys and thus will be the proxy to the fan's reactions. But that's where I don't think it's a coincidence, it's straight up WWE picking someone who will go over everyone, so that even when they're not champs, they'll look strong. It's not like they allow Charlotte or Reigns or New Day actually to have the same fates as the rest during other people's reigns.

You're forgetting that after New Day dropped the Raw tag belts they did nothing for MONTHS, including being reduced to hosting WrestleMania rather than wrestling.
The reason neither Roman nor Charlotte have slid into obscurity after losing a feud/dropping a belt is the same reason that none of Roman's opponents have. If WWE sees you as a top guy/gal, they won't let you slide into obscurity. Look at Balor now: his feud sucks and he feels more like an upper-midcard/main event guy now as opposed to the clear main event guy he was six months ago, but he's still on TV every week, and presented as a top five babyface, which is a fine place to be on the male side of the three-hour show.
The reason such things have happened with Charlotte (and New Day) are because WWE is more willing to rotate non-top -level people into the title picture in the women's and tag divisions because 1) they are smaller and thus you have a lot less to work with if you're only using the top teams (or else we wind up with what we got from both tag divisions from WM until the end of the year last year where it's the same match-up for months and months and months) and 2) WWE doesn't care as much about those divisions. The reason Charlotte is never allowed to slide down is because they see her as a top act.
I will also dispute that too many people Charlotte has feuded with have slid down afterwards due to being damaged by losing to Charlotte. I think WWE actually thinks that the Sasha/Bayley thing was really great, and they saw that as them pushing Sasha and Bayley by giving them TV time every week. And the reason they did this (especially in Sasha's case) is because they see her as a top gal, too. Maybe not the ultra-peak top the way they see Charlotte or Ronda or the way they might want to see Alexa or Nia, but they definitely see Sasha as Seth Rollins to Charlotte's Roman Reigns, and that's not a bad place to be at all.

As I said, I don't think the comparison between Roman and Charlotte is fair because I don't think they have been doing things to purposely push the other women down so that Charlotte can look better than them.

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 20:12 Well she's legitimately better and probably more over than them so fuck it...it would be the natural right decision for once.

Or... you know... we could book better and have more than one top woman.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 20:10

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 19:30 My view of it is actually....if they hadn't knocked the others down to lose to Charlotte in the end...they never would have lost said top spots because they would have won instead and just kept on rolling.

Yeah... but then it'd be Sasha in the top spot and everyone would be complaining that they buried Charlotte and Bayley and Alexa for the sake of Sasha.

most likely, but i think from them all, charlotte is not the most liked. Sasha, Bayley, and Becky could have been easier to push as top babyface just based on charisma. Same thing as pushing Bryan or Rollins over Reigns

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 20:36

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 20:10

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 19:30 My view of it is actually....if they hadn't knocked the others down to lose to Charlotte in the end...they never would have lost said top spots because they would have won instead and just kept on rolling.

Yeah... but then it'd be Sasha in the top spot and everyone would be complaining that they buried Charlotte and Bayley and Alexa for the sake of Sasha.

most likely, but i think from them all, charlotte is not the most liked. Sasha, Bayley, and Becky could have been easier to push as top babyface just based on charisma. Same thing as pushing Bryan or Rollins over Reigns

Most people didn't give more than half a sh*t about Becky until six weeks ago, with people arguing that they basically had to turn her heel to save her. Bayley had a different kind of potential (which they thoroughly ruined). It was pretty much always between Sasha and Charlotte, and WWE made their pick. Sasha might be better-liked, but it's not like Charlotte is a bad worker by any means. She's pretty great, and she's not that much worse than Sasha (or Becky). To compare it to Reigns/Bryan where Bryan was never going to even be given a chance despite already being both more over than Roman and a FAR better worker is ridiculous. A much better comparison would be WWE's choice to go with Rollins over Ambrose.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 20:33
You're forgetting that after New Day dropped the Raw tag belts they did nothing for MONTHS, including being reduced to hosting WrestleMania rather than wrestling.
The reason neither Roman nor Charlotte have slid into obscurity after losing a feud/dropping a belt is the same reason that none of Roman's opponents have. If WWE sees you as a top guy/gal, they won't let you slide into obscurity. Look at Balor now: his feud sucks and he feels more like an upper-midcard/main event guy now as opposed to the clear main event guy he was six months ago, but he's still on TV every week, and presented as a top five babyface, which is a fine place to be on the male side of the three-hour show.
The reason such things have happened with Charlotte (and New Day) are because WWE is more willing to rotate non-top -level people into the title picture in the women's and tag divisions because 1) they are smaller and thus you have a lot less to work with if you're only using the top teams (or else we wind up with what we got from both tag divisions from WM until the end of the year last year where it's the same match-up for months and months and months) and 2) WWE doesn't care as much about those divisions. The reason Charlotte is never allowed to slide down is because they see her as a top act.
I will also dispute that too many people Charlotte has feuded with have slid down afterwards due to being damaged by losing to Charlotte. I think WWE actually thinks that the Sasha/Bayley thing was really great, and they saw that as them pushing Sasha and Bayley by giving them TV time every week. And the reason they did this (especially in Sasha's case) is because they see her as a top gal, too. Maybe not the ultra-peak top the way they see Charlotte or Ronda or the way they might want to see Alexa or Nia, but they definitely see Sasha as Seth Rollins to Charlotte's Roman Reigns, and that's not a bad place to be at all.

As I said, I don't think the comparison between Roman and Charlotte is fair because I don't think they have been doing things to purposely push the other women down so that Charlotte can look better than them.

The problem is not really dropping into obscurity, but rather how once you're out of the title chase, you just stall there in the middle of the card, just like Balor or Wyatt, and in those cases, I think that obscurity could work more for some guys to cool off, and then make a strong comeback, rather than just trade wins and loses with whoever else is in midcard purgatory. In NXT, it always feels like everyone is chasing a title shot one way or another, so that you're neither in obscurity or in limbo; however, in the main roster, when you're not chasing a title, you're out there just having 'fun' or having some dumb storyline feud.

You're right with the women and tag division because as you say, there isn't a lot of people, and they don't actually see a lot of them as top talent, so we get the same never ending feuds and now Charlotte is a 7 time champ. So the problem per say is not feuding with Charlotte or Reigns, this isn't the SuperCena era, but it's more as in WWE does a terribly job following up with people once they're done with their chases, especially in those small divisions where you're either feuding with the champ, or just in the random multiperson feud to fill the card.

You're comparison with Roman and Charlotte is really specific, but in the grand scheme, it's about having their one person to build everything around and not stopping at anything, regardless if the fans agree or not. Especially when there are a lot of other options that could be easily put in that position given the fans's support.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 20:46

Most people didn't give more than half a sh*t about Becky until six weeks ago, with people arguing that they basically had to turn her heel to save her. Bayley had a different kind of potential (which they thoroughly ruined). It was pretty much always between Sasha and Charlotte, and WWE made their pick. Sasha might be better-liked, but it's not like Charlotte is a bad worker by any means. She's pretty great, and she's not that much worse than Sasha (or Becky). To compare it to Reigns/Bryan where Bryan was never going to even be given a chance despite already being both more over than Roman and a FAR better worker is ridiculous. A much better comparison would be WWE's choice to go with Rollins over Ambrose.

Becky may not be a top star, but she's always had TONS of support, it's not a new thing, maybe not as much as Sasha or Bayley, but definitely a lot more than Charlotte, and that's counting that WWE never really positioned her to be the top star of the company. Charlotte vs Sasha has been seen as the best wrestler feud, but in terms of being fan favorites and wwe darlings, Charlotte was always 4th in the horsewomen, and way lower in the whole division as Paige and Naomi are there. Charlotte herself is not that well liked, she's just respected for being great in the ring.

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 20:59

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 28th, '18, 20:46

Most people didn't give more than half a sh*t about Becky until six weeks ago, with people arguing that they basically had to turn her heel to save her. Bayley had a different kind of potential (which they thoroughly ruined). It was pretty much always between Sasha and Charlotte, and WWE made their pick. Sasha might be better-liked, but it's not like Charlotte is a bad worker by any means. She's pretty great, and she's not that much worse than Sasha (or Becky). To compare it to Reigns/Bryan where Bryan was never going to even be given a chance despite already being both more over than Roman and a FAR better worker is ridiculous. A much better comparison would be WWE's choice to go with Rollins over Ambrose.

Becky may not be a top star, but she's always had TONS of support, it's not a new thing, maybe not as much as Sasha or Bayley, but definitely a lot more than Charlotte, and that's counting that WWE never really positioned her to be the top star of the company. Charlotte vs Sasha has been seen as the best wrestler feud, but in terms of being fan favorites and wwe darlings, Charlotte was always 4th in the horsewomen, and way lower in the whole division as Paige and Naomi are there. Charlotte herself is not that well liked, she's just respected for being great in the ring.

People liked Charlotte just fined and cheered her against whatever heel WWE stuck in her way. Becky always got cheered, yes, but she was always "out of sight, out of mind." No one was talking about Becky after her matches were over and no one was talking about her promos other than to point out that they were occasionally cringe-worthy. There were more people angry that American Alpha or The Revival or even Nattie (never mind Bayley or Rusev or Cesaro) were being underutilized than there were for Becky until six weeks ago.