Big Red Machine wrote:
So… the general direction they seem to be heading in is an eventual MCMG reunion… and I don’t think that’s a very good idea. We’ve already got EIGHT damn good tag teams in this division (Addiction, ACH & Sydal, reDRagon, ANX, Briscoes, War Machine, Young Bucks, Roppongi Vice), plus a few fine undercard teams (Silas & Beer City Bruiser, Brutal Bob & Tim Hughes). Do we really need to add MCMG in? In all honesty, I’d much rather see them pushed as meaningful singles competitors, where they have fresh matches with literally everyone. Even just the concept of letting Shelley be a singles competitor feels fresh and exciting, and you’d be killing two birds with one stone because the singles division(s?) feel like they need a shake-up as well.
I totally agree with you, but I wouldn't be opposed to getting some 'dream matches' out of MCMG either with some of the ROH teams. They may be wanting them to replace the spot that the Kingdom is leaving and it seems that reDragon will continue doing some singles stuff moving on

COMMERCIAL FOR THE BEST AND WORST OF STEVE CORINO- terrible.
The commercial has Corino and the Bucks standing there and talking about the DVD. Then Colby shows up and Steve gives him the DVD as a birthday present. Colbly remarks that his birthday was four months ago. Colby was snotty, but he’s got every right to be. I’d be pissed if I were him. Then one of the Bucks superkicks Colby, and instead of going over to check on his son, Steve Corino marks out and screams “SUPERKIIIIIIIIIIIICK!” and flails his arms around, After watching this commercial, I have changed my mind on the Whitmer-Corino feud: Is Whitmer a dick? Yes. But Steve doesn’t seem to be any better. How can you have an angle going on where we are supposed to be concerned that BJ Whitmer is taking advantage of Colby and making him do dangerous things that will result in him getting hurt… and then run a commercial that affirms the angle by having Colby point out that Steve is a neglectful father… and then show us just how neglectful Steve his by having him react with glee when his son gets kicked in the face for no reason?
you're reading too much into it. But if we want to analyze, Corino has kinda moved on from trying to 'save' Colby IMO, and remember that Corino is still an evil person. finally, i'd also mark out of the bucks superkicked my son


It would have made perfect sense for Fish, who is clearly being positioned for a TV Title shot should have gotten the pin, the Young Bucks, who are not being built up for a tag title shot, went over because… um… #YoungBucks #SuckIt #SuperKickParty #2Sweet.
true, but Matt is also getting a title shot. what i'm saying is that I don't think it helps either man get a pin here, because it was an all out brawl between three teams plus AJ and Maria, better to build Fish in singles actions IMO.

There was a lot of action here and it was fun to watch, and I’m sure others will rate it higher, but there came a point where I just turned on this match. There as so much pointless, stupid bullsh*t in here. The Bucks also did a f*cking moronic spot where they sat Bennett down in a chair and put a party hat on his head before going for a double superkick (so they could have a “superkick party”). Why the f*ck would you do comedy in the middle of the street fight?
ease up, it was a 5 second thing, it's as moronic as Adam Cole shouting BAYBAY or Okada doing the Rainmaker pose, zero reason to do it, but fans love it.

Between that, the ring announcer and play-by-play man eating superkicks, the dude on crutches eating a superkick, Maria eating a Meltzer Driver, and Bennett being murdered by finisher spam at the hands of a faction that has been booked like babyfaces all year
Kingdom needed to be destroyed, it was their last night here, so it makes sense to write them off, and this is the type of thing that babyfaces usually do because punishing heels and making fun of them is what babyfaces do. Superkicking Cruise and Kelly was great, it never happens in ROH and it gave a sense of chaos in the match, and it's not like it was on purpose like in PWG, here is was completely by mistake.

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:
So… the general direction they seem to be heading in is an eventual MCMG reunion… and I don’t think that’s a very good idea. We’ve already got EIGHT damn good tag teams in this division (Addiction, ACH & Sydal, reDRagon, ANX, Briscoes, War Machine, Young Bucks, Roppongi Vice), plus a few fine undercard teams (Silas & Beer City Bruiser, Brutal Bob & Tim Hughes). Do we really need to add MCMG in? In all honesty, I’d much rather see them pushed as meaningful singles competitors, where they have fresh matches with literally everyone. Even just the concept of letting Shelley be a singles competitor feels fresh and exciting, and you’d be killing two birds with one stone because the singles division(s?) feel like they need a shake-up as well.
I totally agree with you, but I wouldn't be opposed to getting some 'dream matches' out of MCMG either with some of the ROH teams. They may be wanting them to replace the spot that the Kingdom is leaving and it seems that reDragon will continue doing some singles stuff moving on
The Briscoes have been doing singles stuff for a few years now and have still stayed active as a team. reDRagon will still be part of the tag division

COMMERCIAL FOR THE BEST AND WORST OF STEVE CORINO- terrible.
The commercial has Corino and the Bucks standing there and talking about the DVD. Then Colby shows up and Steve gives him the DVD as a birthday present. Colbly remarks that his birthday was four months ago. Colby was snotty, but he’s got every right to be. I’d be pissed if I were him. Then one of the Bucks superkicks Colby, and instead of going over to check on his son, Steve Corino marks out and screams “SUPERKIIIIIIIIIIIICK!” and flails his arms around, After watching this commercial, I have changed my mind on the Whitmer-Corino feud: Is Whitmer a dick? Yes. But Steve doesn’t seem to be any better. How can you have an angle going on where we are supposed to be concerned that BJ Whitmer is taking advantage of Colby and making him do dangerous things that will result in him getting hurt… and then run a commercial that affirms the angle by having Colby point out that Steve is a neglectful father… and then show us just how neglectful Steve his by having him react with glee when his son gets kicked in the face for no reason?
you're reading too much into it. But if we want to analyze, Corino has kinda moved on from trying to 'save' Colby IMO, and remember that Corino is still an evil person. finally, i'd also mark out of the bucks superkicked my son
The thing is that if you do something that seems to play into a storyline, people are going to assume that it matters for the storyline. And even if that's not true, it's not funny in any way, which is clearly what it's trying for.

It would have made perfect sense for Fish, who is clearly being positioned for a TV Title shot should have gotten the pin, the Young Bucks, who are not being built up for a tag title shot, went over because… um… #YoungBucks #SuckIt #SuperKickParty #2Sweet.
true, but Matt is also getting a title shot. what i'm saying is that I don't think it helps either man get a pin here, because it was an all out brawl between three teams plus AJ and Maria, better to build Fish in singles actions IMO.
This was taped before Matt's title shot was announced, and no mention has been made of Matt's title shot on commentary. It was just stupid booking because they wanted to do a finisher-spam finish.
And of course getting a win helps here. Getting a win always helps.

There was a lot of action here and it was fun to watch, and I’m sure others will rate it higher, but there came a point where I just turned on this match. There as so much pointless, stupid bullsh*t in here. The Bucks also did a f*cking moronic spot where they sat Bennett down in a chair and put a party hat on his head before going for a double superkick (so they could have a “superkick party”). Why the f*ck would you do comedy in the middle of the street fight?
ease up, it was a 5 second thing, it's as moronic as Adam Cole shouting BAYBAY or Okada doing the Rainmaker pose, zero reason to do it, but fans love it.
Cole doing his thing is because he is arrogant. Same with Okada. Signature poses are fine. This is blatant comedy in the middle of a street fight that is a cacophony of just pointless sh*t. This is ROH. This kind of sh*t isn't supposed to happen in main events.

Between that, the ring announcer and play-by-play man eating superkicks, the dude on crutches eating a superkick, Maria eating a Meltzer Driver, and Bennett being murdered by finisher spam at the hands of a faction that has been booked like babyfaces all year
Kingdom needed to be destroyed, it was their last night here, so it makes sense to write them off, and this is the type of thing that babyfaces usually do because punishing heels and making fun of them is what babyfaces do. Superkicking Cruise and Kelly was great, it never happens in ROH and it gave a sense of chaos in the match, and it's not like it was on purpose like in PWG, here is was completely by mistake.
The Kingdom needed to be defeated, yes. And they were. Such a thing could have been accomplished with a simple pinfall or submission. This is not a TV show where we are writing them off for good and so we need to kill them off. And especially when the dude has a broken rib.
And did the match really need Kevin Kelly getting superkicked to feel chaotic? With all the crazy sh*t and the weapons and Maria and AJ... did you really need the play-by-play guy to get superkicked (leaving us with Corino doing commentary on his own)?
I didn't feel that Bobby Cruise getting superkicked added to the chaotic feel at all, and Taven getting superkicked just felt douchy. The Bucks... just kind of don't seem to get it that the more something happens, the less special it is. It really feels like all that goes through their brains is "we can superkick this person to get a pop, so let's do it!" It was all over this match, it was all over their match in Florida against the H.O.T., Martini got triple superkicked at SOTF (also in a stupid, pointless comedy spot- and I think that he, too, is part of the problem there because it happens with him a lot, too, and I've also heard that he is helping book). If you keep doing this sort of this, (and we all know that they will), people become totally numb to it. That's how we've wound up with crowds in just about every company aside from the WWN promotions (and that's because their crowds are so small) that respond to chairshots by chanting that they want tables instead.
Compare the feel for either bump Martini took at the Bucks' hands (or feet) late last year to the reaction any time Prince Nana got bumped. Nana getting bumped always felt HUGE, and that's because he took AT MOST five bumps from the time he became a manager until the time he left in 2006. I don't think CM Punk bumped Nana once during the entire Punk vs. Rave feud, and this feud saw Punk get blinded with air freshener to his eyes, had his girlfriend get hit with the Rave Clash, and Rave and Nana TRIED TO SCRAPE OFF PUNK'S TATTOOS WITH A CHEESE GRATER! And Punk never bumped him once.
Like I said before, this match was just pointless crap heaped on top of other pointless crap. I'd probably have been okay if one of them had gotten superkicked, but the combination of all of the superkicks and the pointless street fight and Maria and Bennett both getting murdered and AJ doing a run-in and the comedy spot all heaped on top of each other was too much for me.

I got a question for you. Do you think this whole "zero tolerance policy' is going anywhere? or just a means to write people off for a while?
It's not that it is "going somewhere" so much as it has been a means to an end.
Originally, for the Ciampa angle, I think it was done to do give more legs to the "Ciampa wants a title shot but also has anger problems" angle, and do so in a way that could build for a while- or at least could be used as a backdrop for Ciampa's matches while he was cycled down the card so that he could work his way back up for there to be some sort of payoff that would resolve it. Keep in mind that during those six months, there was a hell of a lot of stuff that happened that wasn't the original plan, including Jay winning the belt from Elgin, then Jay keeping it at Final Battle, and then doing the four way involving Ciampa at the Anniversary Show. Another thing that wasn't supposed to happen was ROH and Ciampa getting pissy at each other, so when it was decided not to resign him, Delirious used a convenient tool he had developed in the angle to write Ciampa out (which was a great way to do it).
Once Whitmer got hurt and they realized they would have to push Corino vs. Whitmer off until Final Battle, I think they only used it as a way to keep the feud heated by letting Whitmer talk sh*t and Corino unable to do anything about it, with the end goal being to use Corino violating it and getting fired as an announcer as a way to set up the swerve where he was fired as an announcer... but then Nigel would announce that he was also reinstated as a wrestler and we'd get Whitmer vs. Corino at Final Battle.
Except then Corino got hurt and they used a tool they had at their disposal to create a reason why Whitmer couldn't just unmask Mr. Wrestling III as Corino. The gimmick here is that Nigel didn't really want to fire Corino for hitting Whitmer but had to because of the policy, so this their way of getting around that, and everyone from Nigel to Kevin Kelly is in on it, which is why they keep taunting Whitmer about it. It's also rather poetic that the same rule that Whitmer used to get Corino fired is now protecting Corino and frustrating Whitmer. It's ROH making good use of an already-established tool in order to have a logical reason for this feud to not progress until both Corino and Whitmer are healthy again (I think Whitmer might already be). It's not an angle that needs to be "going somewhere" (like the Cedric Alexander "unsafe working environment" thing). The "zero tolerance policy" is a thing that helps this angle get to wherever it is it is going.

In the case of Daniels, I think he just wanted a kayfabe explanation for why he wasn't at the 1/9 tapings (I'm pretty sure he wasn't there), and this was a way to do it that also gave you a reason for Daniels to not just continue on his path of trying to murder Shelley after he shoved the ref out of his way.

Big Red Machine wrote: There was a lot of action here and it was fun to watch, and I’m sure others will rate it higher, but there came a point where I just turned on this match. There as so much pointless, stupid bullsh*t in here. The Bucks also did a f*cking moronic spot where they sat Bennett down in a chair and put a party hat on his head before going for a double superkick (so they could have a “superkick party”). Why the f*ck would you do comedy in the middle of the street fight?
ease up, it was a 5 second thing, it's as moronic as Adam Cole shouting BAYBAY or Okada doing the Rainmaker pose, zero reason to do it, but fans love it.
Cole doing his thing is because he is arrogant. Same with Okada. Signature poses are fine. This is blatant comedy in the middle of a street fight that is a cacophony of just pointless sh*t. This is ROH. This kind of sh*t isn't supposed to happen in main events.
but doing shit like that is part of their gimmick, just like it is for Okada or Cole. And this whole this is ROH, everyone needs to stop taking them so seriously, this wasn't even a title match, ROH has been doing shit like Redneck Kung Fu, Cheeseburgers, or Dragon Ball moves

Between that, the ring announcer and play-by-play man eating superkicks, the dude on crutches eating a superkick, Maria eating a Meltzer Driver, and Bennett being murdered by finisher spam at the hands of a faction that has been booked like babyfaces all year
Kingdom needed to be destroyed, it was their last night here, so it makes sense to write them off, and this is the type of thing that babyfaces usually do because punishing heels and making fun of them is what babyfaces do. Superkicking Cruise and Kelly was great, it never happens in ROH and it gave a sense of chaos in the match, and it's not like it was on purpose like in PWG, here is was completely by mistake.
The Kingdom needed to be defeated, yes. And they were. Such a thing could have been accomplished with a simple pinfall or submission. This is not a TV show where we are writing them off for good and so we need to kill them off. And especially when the dude has a broken rib.
except this was, two of them don't work there anymore, and the other may never come back.


And did the match really need Kevin Kelly getting superkicked to feel chaotic? With all the crazy sh*t and the weapons and Maria and AJ... did you really need the play-by-play guy to get superkicked (leaving us with Corino doing commentary on his own)?
it didn't need it, but it didn't hurt it either. I'd say KK taking a kick was better booking than having AJ have to come out.


I didn't feel that Bobby Cruise getting superkicked added to the chaotic feel at all, and Taven getting superkicked just felt douchy. The Bucks... just kind of don't seem to get it that the more something happens, the less special it is. It really feels like all that goes through their brains is "we can superkick this person to get a pop, so let's do it!" It was all over this match, it was all over their match in Florida against the H.O.T., Martini got triple superkicked at SOTF (also in a stupid, pointless comedy spot- and I think that he, too, is part of the problem there because it happens with him a lot, too, and I've also heard that he is helping book). If you keep doing this sort of this, (and we all know that they will), people become totally numb to it. That's how we've wound up with crowds in just about every company aside from the WWN promotions (and that's because their crowds are so small) that respond to chairshots by chanting that they want tables instead.
Compare the feel for either bump Martini took at the Bucks' hands (or feet) late last year to the reaction any time Prince Nana got bumped. Nana getting bumped always felt HUGE, and that's because he took AT MOST five bumps from the time he became a manager until the time he left in 2006. I don't think CM Punk bumped Nana once during the entire Punk vs. Rave feud, and this feud saw Punk get blinded with air freshener to his eyes, had his girlfriend get hit with the Rave Clash, and Rave and Nana TRIED TO SCRAPE OFF PUNK'S TATTOOS WITH A CHEESE GRATER! And Punk never bumped him once.
Like I said before, this match was just pointless crap heaped on top of other pointless crap. I'd probably have been okay if one of them had gotten superkicked, but the combination of all of the superkicks and the pointless street fight and Maria and Bennett both getting murdered and AJ doing a run-in and the comedy spot all heaped on top of each other was too much for me.
Except Cruise and Kelly had never been superkicked in ROH before, or at least I can't remember the last time something like that happened. As for Martini getting superkicked, he's just one of those managers that always gets involved, so he gets superkicked. Nana always had his lackies be the ones to get involved, but Smokes was always getting hit, right now everyone touches Martini, but Veda doesn't. You can have it both ways, not all managers need to be untouchable, or you're gonna end up with another Stephanie McMahon.

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote: There was a lot of action here and it was fun to watch, and I’m sure others will rate it higher, but there came a point where I just turned on this match. There as so much pointless, stupid bullsh*t in here. The Bucks also did a f*cking moronic spot where they sat Bennett down in a chair and put a party hat on his head before going for a double superkick (so they could have a “superkick party”). Why the f*ck would you do comedy in the middle of the street fight?
ease up, it was a 5 second thing, it's as moronic as Adam Cole shouting BAYBAY or Okada doing the Rainmaker pose, zero reason to do it, but fans love it.
Cole doing his thing is because he is arrogant. Same with Okada. Signature poses are fine. This is blatant comedy in the middle of a street fight that is a cacophony of just pointless sh*t. This is ROH. This kind of sh*t isn't supposed to happen in main events.
but doing shit like that is part of their gimmick, just like it is for Okada or Cole. And this whole this is ROH, everyone needs to stop taking them so seriously, this wasn't even a title match, ROH has been doing shit like Redneck Kung Fu, Cheeseburgers, or Dragon Ball moves
The difference, to me, is as follows. Redneck King Fu hurts. It might be Mark Briscoe's own unique style, but the bottom line is that Mark is still chopping and kicking you. Omega's Haduken is also something that hurts (and I'd even prefer it if he never did that).
What the Bucks are doing here is taking time out of an extremely serious situation to set up comedy. This is supposed to be a fight you are trying to win. You don't waste time putting a party hat on someone's head, giving him time to recover. When Cole does his "Adam Cole, BAY-BAY!" it usually winds up that doing such a thing does cost him because the babyface is able to recover a bit and at least get in a hope-spot. That's good psychology. With the Bucks it's just "do our thing to get our laugh LOL #SuperkickParty."

Between that, the ring announcer and play-by-play man eating superkicks, the dude on crutches eating a superkick, Maria eating a Meltzer Driver, and Bennett being murdered by finisher spam at the hands of a faction that has been booked like babyfaces all year
Kingdom needed to be destroyed, it was their last night here, so it makes sense to write them off, and this is the type of thing that babyfaces usually do because punishing heels and making fun of them is what babyfaces do. Superkicking Cruise and Kelly was great, it never happens in ROH and it gave a sense of chaos in the match, and it's not like it was on purpose like in PWG, here is was completely by mistake.
The Kingdom needed to be defeated, yes. And they were. Such a thing could have been accomplished with a simple pinfall or submission. This is not a TV show where we are writing them off for good and so we need to kill them off. And especially when the dude has a broken rib.
except this was, two of them don't work there anymore, and the other may never come back.
That doesn't mean you have to murder them dead! Doing it this way, we get no kayfabe explanation at all and are just supposed to assume that they're put out of action forever by AJ and the Young Bucks, which makes AJ and the Young Bucks into horrible, terrible people. Ending someone's career by murdering them like that is the sort of thing that heels do.
I think it would have been much better to just beat Bennett clean and then have Maria cut a promo the next week saying that she and Bennett are quitting because ROH is filled with dangerous crazy people like reDRagon and the Young Bucks, so that the announcers can then frame it as total bullsh*t and Bennett and Maria just being scared because they can't hang with all of the great talent in ROH anymore, so they are going to go somewhere with lighter competition. (You can also do a deal with Cole here where he gets to look like a scared little bitch when he realizes that he doesn't have anyone to help him fight Kyle anymore and he'll actually have to face the consequences of his actions by himself like a man.


And did the match really need Kevin Kelly getting superkicked to feel chaotic? With all the crazy sh*t and the weapons and Maria and AJ... did you really need the play-by-play guy to get superkicked (leaving us with Corino doing commentary on his own)?
it didn't need it, but it didn't hurt it either. I'd say KK taking a kick was better booking than having AJ have to come out.
Better than AJ coming out? Yes. That doesn't make it good. Especially not if it leaves Corino alone on commentary.


I didn't feel that Bobby Cruise getting superkicked added to the chaotic feel at all, and Taven getting superkicked just felt douchy. The Bucks... just kind of don't seem to get it that the more something happens, the less special it is. It really feels like all that goes through their brains is "we can superkick this person to get a pop, so let's do it!" It was all over this match, it was all over their match in Florida against the H.O.T., Martini got triple superkicked at SOTF (also in a stupid, pointless comedy spot- and I think that he, too, is part of the problem there because it happens with him a lot, too, and I've also heard that he is helping book). If you keep doing this sort of this, (and we all know that they will), people become totally numb to it. That's how we've wound up with crowds in just about every company aside from the WWN promotions (and that's because their crowds are so small) that respond to chairshots by chanting that they want tables instead.
Compare the feel for either bump Martini took at the Bucks' hands (or feet) late last year to the reaction any time Prince Nana got bumped. Nana getting bumped always felt HUGE, and that's because he took AT MOST five bumps from the time he became a manager until the time he left in 2006. I don't think CM Punk bumped Nana once during the entire Punk vs. Rave feud, and this feud saw Punk get blinded with air freshener to his eyes, had his girlfriend get hit with the Rave Clash, and Rave and Nana TRIED TO SCRAPE OFF PUNK'S TATTOOS WITH A CHEESE GRATER! And Punk never bumped him once.
Like I said before, this match was just pointless crap heaped on top of other pointless crap. I'd probably have been okay if one of them had gotten superkicked, but the combination of all of the superkicks and the pointless street fight and Maria and Bennett both getting murdered and AJ doing a run-in and the comedy spot all heaped on top of each other was too much for me.
Except Cruise and Kelly had never been superkicked in ROH before, or at least I can't remember the last time something like that happened. As for Martini getting superkicked, he's just one of those managers that always gets involved, so he gets superkicked. Nana always had his lackies be the ones to get involved, but Smokes was always getting hit, right now everyone touches Martini, but Veda doesn't. You can have it both ways, not all managers need to be untouchable, or you're gonna end up with another Stephanie McMahon.
Cruise got murdered by Ciampa when Ciampa went nuts. Kelly got thrown around then, too. Julius Smokes usually only got beaten up when he was a babyface. Nana had lackeys, but so does Truth.
The issue with Steph is that due to man-on-woman violence issue, Steph never will get her comeuppance because WWE hasn't done anything to set up any woman ever being big enough to get revenge on her (aside from Ronda who Steph and Hunter both have a huge boner for, and whose involvement won't do anything for WWE in the long- or even the short term... and that's assuming it ever happens at all). With Steph, we KNOW that WWE won't let a dude put his hands on her (I was shocked when they even let Sting block her slap last year by catching her arm) and won't even build a woman up to the level where she can do so. It's the same issue I was going on about in 2014 with Dixie Carter. I just didn't believe that SPIKE TV would ever let Bully Raw powerbomb her, so I never thought it would happen and didn't care about the story (also, the story itself was idiotic).
With Truth, we KNOW that ROH will have no problem with a dude bumping him, so every time he does something it just builds up the desire to see him get bumped, and we KNOW it WILL happen at some point... and when it does, it will be huge.

Big Red Machine wrote: but doing shit like that is part of their gimmick, just like it is for Okada or Cole. And this whole this is ROH, everyone needs to stop taking them so seriously, this wasn't even a title match, ROH has been doing shit like Redneck Kung Fu, Cheeseburgers, or Dragon Ball moves
The difference, to me, is as follows. Redneck King Fu hurts. It might be Mark Briscoe's own unique style, but the bottom line is that Mark is still chopping and kicking you. Omega's Haduken is also something that hurts (and I'd even prefer it if he never did that).
What the Bucks are doing here is taking time out of an extremely serious situation to set up comedy. This is supposed to be a fight you are trying to win. You don't waste time putting a party hat on someone's head, giving him time to recover. When Cole does his "Adam Cole, BAY-BAY!" it usually winds up that doing such a thing does cost him because the babyface is able to recover a bit and at least get in a hope-spot. That's good psychology. With the Bucks it's just "do our thing to get our laugh LOL #SuperkickParty."
but this wasn't a super serious thing, the bucks were not part of that Cole vs reDragon blood feud that warranted a street fight, they were just there to bring in that 'chaos', so it's totally understandable that the Bucks would do that, shenanigans are their gimmick, and it was gonna be a superkick, that was definitely going to hurt.


except this was, two of them don't work there anymore, and the other may never come back.
That doesn't mean you have to murder them dead! Doing it this way, we get no kayfabe explanation at all and are just supposed to assume that they're put out of action forever by AJ and the Young Bucks, which makes AJ and the Young Bucks into horrible, terrible people. Ending someone's career by murdering them like that is the sort of thing that heels do.
I think it would have been much better to just beat Bennett clean and then have Maria cut a promo the next week saying that she and Bennett are quitting because ROH is filled with dangerous crazy people like reDRagon and the Young Bucks, so that the announcers can then frame it as total bullsh*t and Bennett and Maria just being scared because they can't hang with all of the great talent in ROH anymore, so they are going to go somewhere with lighter competition. (You can also do a deal with Cole here where he gets to look like a scared little bitch when he realizes that he doesn't have anyone to help him fight Kyle anymore and he'll actually have to face the consequences of his actions by himself like a man.
This MO has always been a babyface thing to heels, humiliate the heel and take them out to write them off. And while i don't think we need a kayfabe explanation, we're still likely to get Cole saying something next week.

it didn't need it, but it didn't hurt it either. I'd say KK taking a kick was better booking than having AJ have to come out.
Better than AJ coming out? Yes. That doesn't make it good. Especially not if it leaves Corino alone on commentary.
tell me you weren't happy of Silkin talking


Except Cruise and Kelly had never been superkicked in ROH before, or at least I can't remember the last time something like that happened. As for Martini getting superkicked, he's just one of those managers that always gets involved, so he gets superkicked. Nana always had his lackies be the ones to get involved, but Smokes was always getting hit, right now everyone touches Martini, but Veda doesn't. You can have it both ways, not all managers need to be untouchable, or you're gonna end up with another Stephanie McMahon.
Cruise got murdered by Ciampa when Ciampa went nuts. Kelly got thrown around then, too. Julius Smokes usually only got beaten up when he was a babyface. Nana had lackeys, but so does Truth.
The issue with Steph is that due to man-on-woman violence issue, Steph never will get her comeuppance because WWE hasn't done anything to set up any woman ever being big enough to get revenge on her (aside from Ronda who Steph and Hunter both have a huge boner for, and whose involvement won't do anything for WWE in the long- or even the short term... and that's assuming it ever happens at all). With Steph, we KNOW that WWE won't let a dude put his hands on her (I was shocked when they even let Sting block her slap last year by catching her arm) and won't even build a woman up to the level where she can do so. It's the same issue I was going on about in 2014 with Dixie Carter. I just didn't believe that SPIKE TV would ever let Bully Raw powerbomb her, so I never thought it would happen and didn't care about the story (also, the story itself was idiotic).
With Truth, we KNOW that ROH will have no problem with a dude bumping him, so every time he does something it just builds up the desire to see him get bumped, and we KNOW it WILL happen at some point... and when it does, it will be huge.
and Dijak and Diesel usually get their own too, the only difference is that with Nana, he would always have the whole embassy with him, Truth doesn't always come out with the HoT.

as for Steph, you don't always need to 'touch' them, as easy as doing some of Vince's favorite dropping poop on them, or that time that Reigns made Steph puke, there are many ways to humiliate her that don't need to be violent. Look at Veda, she doesn't usually get taken out physically, but she gets humiliated constantly

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote: but doing shit like that is part of their gimmick, just like it is for Okada or Cole. And this whole this is ROH, everyone needs to stop taking them so seriously, this wasn't even a title match, ROH has been doing shit like Redneck Kung Fu, Cheeseburgers, or Dragon Ball moves
The difference, to me, is as follows. Redneck King Fu hurts. It might be Mark Briscoe's own unique style, but the bottom line is that Mark is still chopping and kicking you. Omega's Haduken is also something that hurts (and I'd even prefer it if he never did that).
What the Bucks are doing here is taking time out of an extremely serious situation to set up comedy. This is supposed to be a fight you are trying to win. You don't waste time putting a party hat on someone's head, giving him time to recover. When Cole does his "Adam Cole, BAY-BAY!" it usually winds up that doing such a thing does cost him because the babyface is able to recover a bit and at least get in a hope-spot. That's good psychology. With the Bucks it's just "do our thing to get our laugh LOL #SuperkickParty."
but this wasn't a super serious thing, the bucks were not part of that Cole vs reDragon blood feud that warranted a street fight, they were just there to bring in that 'chaos', so it's totally understandable that the Bucks would do that, shenanigans are their gimmick, and it was gonna be a superkick, that was definitely going to hurt.
It's a f*cking STREET FIGHT! Of course it's serious. And the Bucks clearly felt some level of something or else they wouldn't have stuck their noses into this in the first place last week, and they certainly wouldn't have jumped reDRagon from behind at the beginning of this match, and also tried to jump the Kingdom and assault a one-legged man.
The Bucks weren't "just there to bring the chaos." That makes no kayfabe sense at all. I am quite aware that the Bucks weren't part of the Kyle vs. Cole blood feud, which is one of the major elements that annoys me about this whole situation. Both the Bucks involvement and the Street Fight stipulation came completely out of nowhere. What you seem to be arguing is that "well... the booking dumb, so that makes it okay for the Bucks to do dumb sh*t.



except this was, two of them don't work there anymore, and the other may never come back.
That doesn't mean you have to murder them dead! Doing it this way, we get no kayfabe explanation at all and are just supposed to assume that they're put out of action forever by AJ and the Young Bucks, which makes AJ and the Young Bucks into horrible, terrible people. Ending someone's career by murdering them like that is the sort of thing that heels do.
I think it would have been much better to just beat Bennett clean and then have Maria cut a promo the next week saying that she and Bennett are quitting because ROH is filled with dangerous crazy people like reDRagon and the Young Bucks, so that the announcers can then frame it as total bullsh*t and Bennett and Maria just being scared because they can't hang with all of the great talent in ROH anymore, so they are going to go somewhere with lighter competition. (You can also do a deal with Cole here where he gets to look like a scared little bitch when he realizes that he doesn't have anyone to help him fight Kyle anymore and he'll actually have to face the consequences of his actions by himself like a man.
This MO has always been a babyface thing to heels, humiliate the heel and take them out to write them off. And while i don't think we need a kayfabe explanation, we're still likely to get Cole saying something next week.
No. Heels purposely try to put people out. Babyfaces only do it occasionally, and in real blood feuds. I'd be fine with Kyle trying to rip Cole's arm off. The Bucks and AJ murderizing Bennett is just them being dicks. He was clearly beaten, but they had to hit forty-six more finishers on him anyway.

it didn't need it, but it didn't hurt it either. I'd say KK taking a kick was better booking than having AJ have to come out.
Better than AJ coming out? Yes. That doesn't make it good. Especially not if it leaves Corino alone on commentary.
tell me you weren't happy of Silkin talking
He was TERRIBLE. He said two things, both of which were the same.
Cary Silken is a nice dude. I've met him and shaken his hand. He was standing by the door to the ECW Arena on the second day of HDnet tapings. He was very friendly and wanted to make sure everyone enjoyed the show. He give a very touching speech to the crowd and the locker room before Final Battle 2014 went on the air, thanking anyone who had ever done anything for ROH, no matter how small. He's a very nice man and I am eternally grateful for everything he has done for ROH, but he was atrocious on commentary and I didn't need to hear him speak at all.


Except Cruise and Kelly had never been superkicked in ROH before, or at least I can't remember the last time something like that happened. As for Martini getting superkicked, he's just one of those managers that always gets involved, so he gets superkicked. Nana always had his lackies be the ones to get involved, but Smokes was always getting hit, right now everyone touches Martini, but Veda doesn't. You can have it both ways, not all managers need to be untouchable, or you're gonna end up with another Stephanie McMahon.
Cruise got murdered by Ciampa when Ciampa went nuts. Kelly got thrown around then, too. Julius Smokes usually only got beaten up when he was a babyface. Nana had lackeys, but so does Truth.
The issue with Steph is that due to man-on-woman violence issue, Steph never will get her comeuppance because WWE hasn't done anything to set up any woman ever being big enough to get revenge on her (aside from Ronda who Steph and Hunter both have a huge boner for, and whose involvement won't do anything for WWE in the long- or even the short term... and that's assuming it ever happens at all). With Steph, we KNOW that WWE won't let a dude put his hands on her (I was shocked when they even let Sting block her slap last year by catching her arm) and won't even build a woman up to the level where she can do so. It's the same issue I was going on about in 2014 with Dixie Carter. I just didn't believe that SPIKE TV would ever let Bully Raw powerbomb her, so I never thought it would happen and didn't care about the story (also, the story itself was idiotic).
With Truth, we KNOW that ROH will have no problem with a dude bumping him, so every time he does something it just builds up the desire to see him get bumped, and we KNOW it WILL happen at some point... and when it does, it will be huge.
and Dijak and Diesel usually get their own too, the only difference is that with Nana, he would always have the whole embassy with him, Truth doesn't always come out with the HoT.
Just because his other dudes get beaten up doesn't mean he should be, too. The whole f*cking Taven vs. Lethal feud was about the fact that he never got bumped, and that was working fine until the ridiculous "Look! It's Truth Martini appearing from above the curtain!" finish in Taven's world title match against Cole in Milwaukee killed Taven dead as a babyface... and even then people still wanted to see Taven bump Truth. If ROH had stuck anyone aside from Lethal with Truth instead, Taven would have stayed over as a babyface.

as for Steph, you don't always need to 'touch' them, as easy as doing some of Vince's favorite dropping poop on them, or that time that Reigns made Steph puke, there are many ways to humiliate her that don't need to be violent. Look at Veda, she doesn't usually get taken out physically, but she gets humiliated constantly
Veda doesn't get humiliated. She just has Kevin Kelly saying the same dumb, stereotypical "all lawyers are sleazebags!" lines that we've been hearing from lame comedians for the past thirty years.
Yes. There are other ways to have a heel get comeuppance, but those are minor things unless the particular concept is built up (like Jade Chung getting to use Nana as a footstool at the end of Steel Cage Warfare after Nana had been doing it to her for a year). "Hahaha I made Steph puke!" is okay one week, but it's not the sort of thing that blows off all of the heat. That's the sort of thing you do to make Steph get more angry and seek more revenge. It's not the sort of thing that says "we're done now. I have learned my lesson not to mess with this babyface anymore."