cero2k wrote:that's how all those guys are, I rather listen to Dave salivate over his Tokio Dome shows than Vinny and Alvarez hate on TNA just because it's the thing to do. Today i also listened to their review of bell to bell, and Vinny is such an annoying piece of crap hating on the show, you can tell from his expressions that he's just hating to be accepted or something. But that's how all reviews are, biased to the promotions someone likes, TNA hints murder and everyone craps on it, WWE straight up buries Paul Bearer in cement or Sting has super powers and everyone is creaming themselves. Samoa Joe who hasn't changed a bit in him sucked in TNA, but suddenly is the greatest thing in NXT the next day.

cero2k wrote: Going back to Meltzer, i don't think it's all double standard, Tanahashi vs Yano had a starting point, it followed up, it built up, and there was an ending, there is nothing wrong with it. NJPW is so well booked that Tana can feud with Yano and still come out unharmed because even as comedy jobbers, all NJPW guys are well established and the storyline wasn't just random shit going on. if Neville had lost against Bo he would be seen as being buried and it was a pointless feud for a 5 minute match on a PPV, there's nothing with that, but let's not pretend it's good booking.

Big Red Machine wrote: Personally I prefer Bryan and Vinny because they 1) seem to be more in line with my way of thinking and 2) because they are funny, although I will admit that Craig is my favorite of all of them because he seems to enjoy wrestling more than the other two. That being said, I think you're really misreading Vinny. He was hating on TNA (and Smackdown) WAY before it was cool. I have quite a bit of sympathy for Vinny because he is often being forced to watch shows that he REALLY doesn't want to watch (Smackdown and Impact). Do I think he was right about this week's Impact? No. But I can at least understand where he was coming from because, I too, was sitting there, waiting for over-booking to come.
I feel the same way about Joe, simply because the change of scenery makes him feel like a badass again. When you've seen someone so booked into the ground with the standard TNA over-booking BS, you tend to stop getting excited about them. It's the same reason I'm glad to see Hernandez being used as the big enforcer for a heel stable. Because I've seen him do the "look at me, I'm a Mexican!" gimmick in TNA for soooooo long.
I feel the same way with most TNA big matches: because I'm always CERTAIN there is going to be some dumb ref bump. And 9 times out of 10, I'm right. But when I don't think we're going to get that BS (the Wolves vs. Dirty Heels feud or the Wolves vs. Hardys vs. Dudleys 3 way) I suddenly get more excited for it.

Big Red Machine wrote: I disagree that Tanahashi vs. Yano went as well as it could have. It shouldn't have gone passed in Invasion Attack. Yano gets the lucky win once in the big tournament, then Tanahashi gets the win back on the big PPV. Yano has spent the past few years being such a goofball that I really don't buy him as a serious competitor anymore. He's got the low blow and roll-up, but that's all he's got. Tanahashi can lose to that once. Twice is retreading the same thing.
I actually thought that Bo vs. Neville was quite good booking. It got Neville out of a match where he would not only fail to win a title, but would also have to be pinned, and instead put him in a feud that would have to be short, but which he could win. Meanwhile, it took a guy who wasn't doing anything and is rarely ever part of the mix, and it gave him something do to for a while. They did one short but effective angle (the knee injury) which carried them into the PPV, and then they were done with it, with the right guy coming out on top cleanly.

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote: Personally I prefer Bryan and Vinny because they 1) seem to be more in line with my way of thinking and 2) because they are funny, although I will admit that Craig is my favorite of all of them because he seems to enjoy wrestling more than the other two. That being said, I think you're really misreading Vinny. He was hating on TNA (and Smackdown) WAY before it was cool. I have quite a bit of sympathy for Vinny because he is often being forced to watch shows that he REALLY doesn't want to watch (Smackdown and Impact). Do I think he was right about this week's Impact? No. But I can at least understand where he was coming from because, I too, was sitting there, waiting for over-booking to come.
I feel the same way about Joe, simply because the change of scenery makes him feel like a badass again. When you've seen someone so booked into the ground with the standard TNA over-booking BS, you tend to stop getting excited about them. It's the same reason I'm glad to see Hernandez being used as the big enforcer for a heel stable. Because I've seen him do the "look at me, I'm a Mexican!" gimmick in TNA for soooooo long.
I feel the same way with most TNA big matches: because I'm always CERTAIN there is going to be some dumb ref bump. And 9 times out of 10, I'm right. But when I don't think we're going to get that BS (the Wolves vs. Dirty Heels feud or the Wolves vs. Hardys vs. Dudleys 3 way) I suddenly get more excited for it.

I just don't like their lack of professionalism sometimes, Meltzer while not super funny, you hear his reviews and you believe that he's being as straight as unbiased as possible, yeah he likes NJPW, he'll still talk shit when it's really granted. To Bryan and Vinny, they're just soo biased, anyone who loses or they don't like suddenly becomes a 'geek', fuck TNA because TNA, but praise god NXT exists, things like that. granted i haven't been listening to Vinny that long, but I hear him and I totally hear the smark that hates TNA because of reasons from '09 and just keeps hating on them whether it's good or bad, but podcasts like that are everywhere to find, and if people are paying for your product, at least try to be more objective. At this point I only listen to Vinny for the wednesday shows, because other way there is just waaay to much negative vibe. Alvarez at least tends to have better reasons why he hates what he hates.

cero2k wrote:
How can anyone with the sense of hearing consider Joe to be a badass right now with his 80s Spike Lee entrance song? He's less of a badass than he ever was in his career.

Big Red Machine wrote: I disagree that Tanahashi vs. Yano went as well as it could have. It shouldn't have gone passed in Invasion Attack. Yano gets the lucky win once in the big tournament, then Tanahashi gets the win back on the big PPV. Yano has spent the past few years being such a goofball that I really don't buy him as a serious competitor anymore. He's got the low blow and roll-up, but that's all he's got. Tanahashi can lose to that once. Twice is retreading the same thing.
I actually thought that Bo vs. Neville was quite good booking. It got Neville out of a match where he would not only fail to win a title, but would also have to be pinned, and instead put him in a feud that would have to be short, but which he could win. Meanwhile, it took a guy who wasn't doing anything and is rarely ever part of the mix, and it gave him something do to for a while. They did one short but effective angle (the knee injury) which carried them into the PPV, and then they were done with it, with the right guy coming out on top cleanly.

cero2k wrote: Neville vs Bo in the other hand didn't do anything for anyone, it faded out Neville from the midcard title scene and got him a win over an actual goofball geek. Granted the EC match was a clusterfuck and it ended up hurting everyone in it, but being in a midcard title chase in a match that people were talking about was better than a one month feud with a nobody. Even if he fails to win the title or gets pinned, it keeps him more relevant than fighting Bo, and he could have been taken out in a way to look strong, we've seen world champs get taken out from ECs before and stay strong.

Big Red Machine wrote:
TNA hasn't been good for quite a long time. Like I said, they are both very jaded to TNA like I am because they sick of false promises of new starts and sick of the same angles over and over again. You should go back and listen to some of their older TNA reviews. That will explain why they are so down on the company (and they're also utterly hilarious). They are fans who are fed up.

RE "everyone who loses is a geek" (and Dave does it to, he just uses the phrase "just another guy")-
1) It's not just the loss, but the way the loss happens (for example, they didn't call Neville a geek when he lost clean to Rollins)
2) I think they all look at the mid card differently than we do because they grew up in the era of squashes where guys who lost were always losers and guys who won were main eventers so unless you lost to a tippy-top guy, it made you look like a jobber. It's just a product of being from a different time. It's the same as how they see guys like Dolph stamped as midcarders for life and think the fans view them that way, too, whereas the fans in the arena would go nuts to see Dolph in a world title match.

Big Red Machine wrote:

cero2k wrote: How can anyone with the sense of hearing consider Joe to be a badass right now with his 80s Spike Lee entrance song? He's less of a badass than he ever was in his career.

Because he's Samoa Joe being Samoa Joe again.

Big Red Machine wrote: I agree that it was a good feud to hold Tanahashi over while others were in the main event, but they did same thing twice. After Tanahashi got his win back at Invasion Attack they went and had Yano screw him in the same exact way. Extending it would have been fine if they hadn't done the same thing. Maybe at Invasion Attack you have Yano do an Eddie Guerrero type deal to make the ref think Tanahashi low blowed him and win by DQ. Then in May you can have Tanahashi get pissed and actually go for the low blow but have the ref catch it and DQ Tanahashi and actually build up to something for Dominion.
Tanahashi already got his win back over Yano at Dontaku, so what was the point of this match.

And while I agree that the idea of neither feud was bad, I just don't see how you can bury WWE for giving Neville a clean win over an undercard guy while praising New Japan for having their own equivalent of Bo Dallas beat John Cena. TWICE (and meanwhile insist that ROH can't put one of the guys headed into their #1 contendership match over Tanahashi because, for some reason, their own jobber is good enough to beat Tanahashi but they'd never let even a top guy in ROH or CMLL or Rev Pro beat Tanahashi).

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:
TNA hasn't been good for quite a long time. Like I said, they are both very jaded to TNA like I am because they sick of false promises of new starts and sick of the same angles over and over again. You should go back and listen to some of their older TNA reviews. That will explain why they are so down on the company (and they're also utterly hilarious). They are fans who are fed up.

RE "everyone who loses is a geek" (and Dave does it to, he just uses the phrase "just another guy")-
1) It's not just the loss, but the way the loss happens (for example, they didn't call Neville a geek when he lost clean to Rollins)
2) I think they all look at the mid card differently than we do because they grew up in the era of squashes where guys who lost were always losers and guys who won were main eventers so unless you lost to a tippy-top guy, it made you look like a jobber. It's just a product of being from a different time. It's the same as how they see guys like Dolph stamped as midcarders for life and think the fans view them that way, too, whereas the fans in the arena would go nuts to see Dolph in a world title match.

ok, TNA got bad, but TNA has also been improving every week for almost 3 yrs now, for 2-3 yrs TNA has been better than WWE yet everyone keeps hating on them for the Hogan era that ended years ago. Like i said, I'm a WWE fan that got fed up too, I still give them credit where credit is due. Vinny doesn't even do that.

'Geek' is so much worse than 'just another guy', I can believe that for Meltzer there are a bunch of guys that are 'just another guy', but 'geek' is a straight up insult. And I wouldn't excuse the growing up with a different wrestling, lots of people (including myself) grew up like that, it's just that lack of professionalism that i talk about, if they consider themselves journalist, then be more unbiased and proper.

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:

cero2k wrote: How can anyone with the sense of hearing consider Joe to be a badass right now with his 80s Spike Lee entrance song? He's less of a badass than he ever was in his career.

Because he's Samoa Joe being Samoa Joe again.

and he was too on his last days with the X Division and the with the BDC, he was the muscle. He's not doing anything different other than having a crappy song

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote: I agree that it was a good feud to hold Tanahashi over while others were in the main event, but they did same thing twice. After Tanahashi got his win back at Invasion Attack they went and had Yano screw him in the same exact way. Extending it would have been fine if they hadn't done the same thing. Maybe at Invasion Attack you have Yano do an Eddie Guerrero type deal to make the ref think Tanahashi low blowed him and win by DQ. Then in May you can have Tanahashi get pissed and actually go for the low blow but have the ref catch it and DQ Tanahashi and actually build up to something for Dominion.
Tanahashi already got his win back over Yano at Dontaku, so what was the point of this match.

And while I agree that the idea of neither feud was bad, I just don't see how you can bury WWE for giving Neville a clean win over an undercard guy while praising New Japan for having their own equivalent of Bo Dallas beat John Cena. TWICE (and meanwhile insist that ROH can't put one of the guys headed into their #1 contendership match over Tanahashi because, for some reason, their own jobber is good enough to beat Tanahashi but they'd never let even a top guy in ROH or CMLL or Rev Pro beat Tanahashi).

So i guess we can agree that the problem with Tana/Yano wasn't that it went long, but that Yano should have had a win at InvAttk. Tana shouldn't win until his final match, with Yano constantly driving Tana, the super babyface ace, to cheat. Kinda like a Cena/Wyatt match i guess.

cero2k wrote: the difference is that Yano, even as a goofball, is not treated like a jobber like Bo is. Yano makes the G1 Climax and the NJ Cup, Bo loses to the losers. If Bo were to be protected in WWE, I'm sure no one would have cared for Neville vs Bo.

Big Red Machine wrote: Dude... with the exception of the tag feud in the summer, TNA was WRETCHED last year, and they've been pretty freakin' bad this year, too. Some of those shows from the spring of 2014 have got to be some of the worst wrestling shows I've seen in my life. With the exception of Taryn's babyface run, I think that the few times I think TNA has been due some credit, Bryan and Vinny given it to them.
that's the thing, it hasn't. It's been a far better product than the hogan era, and far better than A&8s, faaar better than joker sting era. Aries, Roode, Lashley, Young, and Angle's reigns have had good match ups. The knockouts since Havok/Kong returned has been good. Tag titles since the wolves debuted has been good. TNA could have a 5 star show, and people will still shit on it just because it was made by TNA.

Yes, "geek" is worse than "just another guy," but I think they are trying to emphasize different things. B&V are trying to emphasize that they guy was made to look stupid or bad while Dave approaches things from a more business perspective and is saying "this isn't someone the fans can care about."
well, they ARE running a business

I don't think Vinny considers himself a wrestling journalist in any way at all. Bryan probably does, but Vinny definitely doesn't.
so he's just another smark in the internet, why should i pay to hear a smark when there's millions out there for free?

Of course Yano is treated like a jobber. New Japan is just smarter about how it treats its lower level guys by putting them all in big tag matches all of the time so they don't always have to take the fall in every match. Yano is still a jobber. He might be in the G1, but that's only so the other guys have someone to beat, and he only gets wins to make him look like he's not just embarrassing himself (and those are all by cheating). He always finishes at or near the bottom of his block.
exactly, NJPW takes better care of their jobbers, so that the ace can lose and is not hurt. WWE is so bad that even winning over a jobber is meaningless.

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote: Dude... with the exception of the tag feud in the summer, TNA was WRETCHED last year, and they've been pretty freakin' bad this year, too. Some of those shows from the spring of 2014 have got to be some of the worst wrestling shows I've seen in my life. With the exception of Taryn's babyface run, I think that the few times I think TNA has been due some credit, Bryan and Vinny given it to them.
that's the thing, it hasn't. It's been a far better product than the hogan era, and far better than A&8s, faaar better than joker sting era. Aries, Roode, Lashley, Young, and Angle's reigns have had good match ups. The knockouts since Havok/Kong returned has been good. Tag titles since the wolves debuted has been good. TNA could have a 5 star show, and people will still shit on it just because it was made by TNA.
We'll have to chalk this one up to a difference of opinion because like I said above, in my opinion, TNA has been utterly wretched for almost all of that time, with one or two angles being exceptions


Yes, "geek" is worse than "just another guy," but I think they are trying to emphasize different things. B&V are trying to emphasize that they guy was made to look stupid or bad while Dave approaches things from a more business perspective and is saying "this isn't someone the fans can care about."
well, they ARE running a business
but that doesn't have as much to do with the art/entertainment factor of it, which is, I think, what Vinny in particular is looking for. The crowd in Japan goes nuts for Ishii so it's smart of New Japan to keep putting him out there and have him do his thing, but to me, there is no art/entertainment value in it with him. It's a turn-off to me, but to many others, it's something to get excited about. I like B&V because they seem to have a lot more passion than Dave does when it's something to get animated about. The business side is important, but when you are reviewing a show, that isn't necessarily your top priority.

I don't think Vinny considers himself a wrestling journalist in any way at all. Bryan probably does, but Vinny definitely doesn't.
so he's just another smark in the internet, why should i pay to hear a smark when there's millions out there for free?
Basically (he's also a former wrestler if that gives him more credibility for you, but it doesn't make his opinions any more or less valid, IMO). The reason you should listen to him is because he's funny. And if you're subscribing to get the Observer and Observer Radio, it's basically free to get those shows. It's like the history thing Karl Stern is doing now. I'd never pay for most of that pioneer era talk, but because it's free I figure why not listen to it?

Of course Yano is treated like a jobber. New Japan is just smarter about how it treats its lower level guys by putting them all in big tag matches all of the time so they don't always have to take the fall in every match. Yano is still a jobber. He might be in the G1, but that's only so the other guys have someone to beat, and he only gets wins to make him look like he's not just embarrassing himself (and those are all by cheating). He always finishes at or near the bottom of his block.
exactly, NJPW takes better care of their jobbers, so that the ace can lose and is not hurt. WWE is so bad that even winning over a jobber is meaningless.
But losing to an NJPW jobber obviously kayfabe worse than beating a WWE jobber because when you beat the WWE jobber, at least you've WON. And to do it with a guy who they insist on forcing the top guys in other promotions to job to is kind of douchy. There was no reason Tanahashi couldn't have put either Roddy or Elgin over while he is mired in this feud with a jobber.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Yes, "geek" is worse than "just another guy," but I think they are trying to emphasize different things. B&V are trying to emphasize that they guy was made to look stupid or bad while Dave approaches things from a more business perspective and is saying "this isn't someone the fans can care about."
well, they ARE running a business
but that doesn't have as much to do with the art/entertainment factor of it, which is, I think, what Vinny in particular is looking for. The business side is important, but when you are reviewing a show, that isn't necessarily your top priority.
someone needs to tell them that being so negative is not necessarily good for business or entertaining.


Of course Yano is treated like a jobber. New Japan is just smarter about how it treats its lower level guys by putting them all in big tag matches all of the time so they don't always have to take the fall in every match. Yano is still a jobber. He might be in the G1, but that's only so the other guys have someone to beat, and he only gets wins to make him look like he's not just embarrassing himself (and those are all by cheating). He always finishes at or near the bottom of his block.
exactly, NJPW takes better care of their jobbers, so that the ace can lose and is not hurt. WWE is so bad that even winning over a jobber is meaningless.
But losing to an NJPW jobber obviously kayfabe worse than beating a WWE jobber because when you beat the WWE jobber, at least you've WON. And to do it with a guy who they insist on forcing the top guys in other promotions to job to is kind of douchy. There was no reason Tanahashi couldn't have put either Roddy or Elgin over while he is mired in this feud with a jobber.
except wins and loses don't matter at all in WWE, winning against a jobber doesn't mean anything, it's just an exhibition.

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:



Of course Yano is treated like a jobber. New Japan is just smarter about how it treats its lower level guys by putting them all in big tag matches all of the time so they don't always have to take the fall in every match. Yano is still a jobber. He might be in the G1, but that's only so the other guys have someone to beat, and he only gets wins to make him look like he's not just embarrassing himself (and those are all by cheating). He always finishes at or near the bottom of his block.
exactly, NJPW takes better care of their jobbers, so that the ace can lose and is not hurt. WWE is so bad that even winning over a jobber is meaningless.
But losing to an NJPW jobber obviously kayfabe worse than beating a WWE jobber because when you beat the WWE jobber, at least you've WON. And to do it with a guy who they insist on forcing the top guys in other promotions to job to is kind of douchy. There was no reason Tanahashi couldn't have put either Roddy or Elgin over while he is mired in this feud with a jobber.
except wins and loses don't matter at all in WWE, winning against a jobber doesn't mean anything, it's just an exhibition.
An exhibition where he got to do his cool flip. Winning and losing DOES matter in New Japan, and Tanahashi lost to Yano multiple times!

Big Red Machine wrote: except wins and loses don't matter at all in WWE, winning against a jobber doesn't mean anything, it's just an exhibition.
An exhibition where he got to do his cool flip. Winning and losing DOES matter in New Japan, and Tanahashi lost to Yano multiple times!

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote: except wins and loses don't matter at all in WWE, winning against a jobber doesn't mean anything, it's just an exhibition.
An exhibition where he got to do his cool flip. Winning and losing DOES matter in New Japan, and Tanahashi lost to Yano multiple times!

Exactly why Tana losing to Yano was a huge deal and it wasn't just wasting Tana's time with a random feud. You have the biggest Ace lose to the biggest joke on a fluke and things get interesting. Like we said, it could had been better handled in terms of what pins to use and how Tana got them back, but the premise is a great idea for a story

Big Red Machine wrote:I think part of what bugs me on this is that they rarely go into WHY the New Japan matches are so great, whereas with a North American promotion they will point out what they liked or didn't like and why.