Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 19:18
And other fans have bee relatively negative towards AEW, or thought it was somewhere in the realm of okay to good. And I'm not talking about Jim Cornette. I'm talking about people like Jason Powell, Todd Martin, and even Wade Keller at times. and not so much for their wrestler as for their presentation and flawed storytelling.

of course, biases are going to exist and to each their own, and no one is saying that AEW is perfect, but to imply that AEW is bad wrestling, bad stories, and especially, not taking wrestling serious is just preposterous. The consensus for the last month, even since January is that AEW has had top notch shows, February was amazing and the build to Revolution had some of the most compelling and serious stories that we've seen on TV for years.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 19:21

Which means... what, exactly? The fact that the rest of us didn't know that is evidence that they're not doing a good job of explaining these things.

no, it's not Yuka Sakazaki's time yet to be in the spotlight, and it's not like Magic Girls barely came up, they've been a thing since the 50's. Excalibur straight up told you, I don't know what else you need, I mean, did someone need to explain the definition of a Vaudevillain? or a Rugby Player? or what a boogeyman is?

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 19:24
I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that Shanna has some revenge to get on Nyla, or what past Big Swole has to overcome. Anyone else know what he's talking about?

And if you're going to call "finally become a top name after so many years wrestling" a character then how are you not singing the praises of ROH and EVOLVE, where that seems like it's 60% of the characters. Where were you during Kofi-mania? That's what that whole story was.

Shana and Nyla had a month long feud in both Dark and Dynamite. There were table spots and all. Swole has talked about her past too, she had one special feature on her. it's just a matter of paying attention and caring to find out what's going on in the promotion.

Simple. I don't give a fuck about ROH, EVOLVE, or Kofi Kingston.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 20:17

I've given them time. And in most cases, they haven't done anything with it.

Look... they do a good job with most of the people they choose to focus on (LAX not so much, and arguably Kenny and Pac), but they seem to either want to focus on too many people, or don't know how to rotate people in and out in an effective way.

time to stop watching and rather watch something does things like you want them done.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '20, 09:39

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 19:18
And other fans have bee relatively negative towards AEW, or thought it was somewhere in the realm of okay to good. And I'm not talking about Jim Cornette. I'm talking about people like Jason Powell, Todd Martin, and even Wade Keller at times. and not so much for their wrestler as for their presentation and flawed storytelling.

of course, biases are going to exist and to each their own, and no one is saying that AEW is perfect, but to imply that AEW is bad wrestling, bad stories, and especially, not taking wrestling serious is just preposterous. The consensus for the last month, even since January is that AEW has had top notch shows, February was amazing and the build to Revolution had some of the most compelling and serious stories that we've seen on TV for years.

Some of the stories are very good, yes, but a lot of things still have holes, and the very presence of Orange Cassidy is an example of not taking wrestling seriously. That's exactly what he does.
People have confused "better than main roster WWE" with being excellent. AEW has a lot of problems with their storytelling. First and foremost are the major inconsistencies in policy and enforcement from week to week and segment to segment.

Yes, AEW has been better, on the whole, since the new year, but they have been far from perfect, and some of the stories have felt stuck in neutral. I think they would greatly benefit from switching to bi-monthly PPVs rather than quarterly ones, because it would make it less frustrating when things don't move forward at the PPV after weeks of build.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '20, 10:12

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 19:21

Which means... what, exactly? The fact that the rest of us didn't know that is evidence that they're not doing a good job of explaining these things.

no, it's not Yuka Sakazaki's time yet to be in the spotlight, and it's not like Magic Girls barely came up, they've been a thing since the 50's. Excalibur straight up told you, I don't know what else you need, I mean, did someone need to explain the definition of a Vaudevillain? or a Rugby Player? or what a boogeyman is?

I don't need someone to explain a Vaudevillain to me, but the average Japanese person probably does, because they didn't have Vaudeville in Japan. Similarly, yes, you need to explain what a "magic girl" is to a non-Japanese audience.

Exaclibur told us she's wearing anime-inspired garb or whatever. We still don't know sh*t about her as a person other than that she likes anime, apparently.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '20, 10:26

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 19:24
I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that Shanna has some revenge to get on Nyla, or what past Big Swole has to overcome. Anyone else know what he's talking about?

And if you're going to call "finally become a top name after so many years wrestling" a character then how are you not singing the praises of ROH and EVOLVE, where that seems like it's 60% of the characters. Where were you during Kofi-mania? That's what that whole story was.

Shana and Nyla had a month long feud in both Dark and Dynamite. There were table spots and all. Swole has talked about her past too, she had one special feature on her. it's just a matter of paying attention and caring to find out what's going on in the promotion.

Did they? They showed a replay of something on Dynamite one week, then Nyla put Shanna through a table the next week along with Bryce Rembsurg as part of the angle to get her suspended. Shanna came across as an afterthought, with Bryce Remsburg being the big spot because that's what got Nyla suspended. If they had matches on Dark, THEY HAVEN'T BEEN MENTIONED ON DYNAMITE ONCE. Ditto with Swole's backstory. It was a video package on Dynamite, and the announcers have never brought it up on Dynamite.

The announcers and producers are supposed to be communicating the important information to us through their commentary and video packages and whatever. If WWE wants something that happened on Smackdown to be relevant on Raw the next week, they show us a f*cking replay first. Even TNA got that right when something relevant happened on X-Plosion (and WWE does this with Main Event in the rare case that show has been relevant). Not doing it is a failure to get your story across to the audience. If someone is tuning in for the first time, he or she should be able to understand what is happening because the relevant information should be relayed through the announcers and through the production.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '20, 10:26
it's just a matter of paying attention and caring to find out what's going on in the promotion.
Simple. I don't give a fuck about ROH, EVOLVE, or Kofi Kingston.

This right here is your problem. You're already an AEW hardcore. You have already made the choice to actively care about AEW, and thus you're happy to go watch everything they put on YouTube (including Dark). But not everyone is like you. An average fan who has heard about AEW and decides to give it a try, or even a lapsed fan who channel-surfs into it one day. They're not going to know anything unless the announcers tell them, they're not going to even know that these things exist to look at unless the announcers tell them (which AEW's don't), and even if they do find out about them, they're not automatically going to decide to invest even more time into this thing they haven't yet been given a reason to care about!
It's utterly ridiculous to expect a fan to have to go do research on the internet to understand everything that is going on. Find me a form of entertainment where that happens.

A fan's attention and time needs to be earned through quality product. And notice that I used the singular there, not the plural, because every fan is new to the promotion at some point. AEW started with a large following, but each of those fans had already been earned to them through their performances in New Japan and ROH (and in the Bucks' case, PWG). The reason I sought out Cody matches in promotions I wouldn't have otherwise watched like WCPW when he came to the indies is because he had earned my attention in WWE (compare that to someone like Simon Gotch or Bull Dempsey, who I have only seen since their WWE departures in the few cases where they showed up in a promotion I was already watching).

You already care about AEW so you're willing to go the extra mile for them. Similarly, you're content to ignore ROH, EVOLVE, and Kofi Kingston because you've already decided that you don't care about them, even if they are doing the same thing you have praised in AEW. And that's fine. But it also belies the fact that your views on the matter are not coming from a place of objectivity. You're evaluating AEW on a "does this work for Cero?" axis, and that's fine. But you have to realize that that's not the way that AEW needs to be making decisions. AEW's decisions need to be based on "does this work for a new/as of yet uninvested viewer?" Having fans like you is great, but if the company is ever going to grow then they need to be focused on that new/as of yet uninvested viewer and turning him or her into you.

That, I think gets to the heart why AEW is so polarizing. Because AEW is theoretically in a place to really challenge WWE, and the people who want them to succeed (and I am one of those people, too) have very different views on what they need to do in order to grow. To some of us, putting Orange Cassidy in a f*cking PPV match is a worrying sign.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '20, 19:41

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '20, 10:26
it's just a matter of paying attention and caring to find out what's going on in the promotion.
Simple. I don't give a fuck about ROH, EVOLVE, or Kofi Kingston.

This right here is your problem. You're already an AEW hardcore. You have already made the choice to actively care about AEW, and thus you're happy to go watch everything they put on YouTube (including Dark). But not everyone is like you. An average fan who has heard about AEW and decides to give it a try, or even a lapsed fan who channel-surfs into it one day. They're not going to know anything unless the announcers tell them, they're not going to even know that these things exist to look at unless the announcers tell them (which AEW's don't), and even if they do find out about them, they're not automatically going to decide to invest even more time into this thing they haven't yet been given a reason to care about!
It's utterly ridiculous to expect a fan to have to go do research on the internet to understand everything that is going on. Find me a form of entertainment where that happens.

A fan's attention and time needs to be earned through quality product. And notice that I used the singular there, not the plural, because every fan is new to the promotion at some point. AEW started with a large following, but each of those fans had already been earned to them through their performances in New Japan and ROH (and in the Bucks' case, PWG). The reason I sought out Cody matches in promotions I wouldn't have otherwise watched like WCPW when he came to the indies is because he had earned my attention in WWE (compare that to someone like Simon Gotch or Bull Dempsey, who I have only seen since their WWE departures in the few cases where they showed up in a promotion I was already watching).

You already care about AEW so you're willing to go the extra mile for them. Similarly, you're content to ignore ROH, EVOLVE, and Kofi Kingston because you've already decided that you don't care about them, even if they are doing the same thing you have praised in AEW. And that's fine. But it also belies the fact that your views on the matter are not coming from a place of objectivity. You're evaluating AEW on a "does this work for Cero?" axis, and that's fine. But you have to realize that that's not the way that AEW needs to be making decisions. AEW's decisions need to be based on "does this work for a new/as of yet uninvested viewer?" Having fans like you is great, but if the company is ever going to grow then they need to be focused on that new/as of yet uninvested viewer and turning him or her into you.

That, I think gets to the heart why AEW is so polarizing. Because AEW is theoretically in a place to really challenge WWE, and the people who want them to succeed (and I am one of those people, too) have very different views on what they need to do in order to grow. To some of us, putting Orange Cassidy in a f*cking PPV match is a worrying sign.

And this. This is case and point and the best summary of this whole discussion.

AEW Hardcores care and know everything about these.
Casual fans, such as myself when it comes to AEW, I don't know what's going on... or half these people's story, because the company expects me to have seen every match they've ever done and researched them on Wikipedia. Something most of us just aren't prepared to do!

I want to like every wrestling show I watch. There are parts of AEW that I do enjoy, but I find myself feeling negatively about it once each show has ended. I don't want to feel that way at all.

AEW need to learn to cater to the masses if they want to achieve their goals.

And on BRM's point about Cassidy... I don't like him. His very existence is insulting to me HOWEVER, his involvement gets pops and some people like it. If he is used in comedy angles alone with other goofy wrestlers, fine, do it for the pop, whatever crack on... but when you're putting him in angles with very serious competitors (Like PAC!), you're only ever going to drag them down and create this continued dislike of what he brings to the table.

XIV wrote: ↑Mar 4th, '20, 03:51

AEW need to learn to cater to the masses if they want to achieve their goals.

they already did, they already got the TV extension with more and more money.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 11th, '20, 09:17

XIV wrote: ↑Mar 4th, '20, 03:51

AEW need to learn to cater to the masses if they want to achieve their goals.

they already did, they already got the TV extension with more and more money.

And so did WWE despite clearly declining ratings and attendance. If the last few years have proved anything, it's that TV people and Wall Street people don't know sh*t about the wrestling business, with the possible exception of the people at Sinclair, who were smart enough to buy a wrestling company to fill TV time with something that might make them a bit of money, but even if it doesn't, they're still losing a net total of less than they would is they were paying for the rights to something like Friends.

When the ratings start to grow to more than they were the first week, then we can talk.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 11th, '20, 14:53
And so did WWE despite clearly declining ratings and attendance. If the last few years have proved anything, it's that TV people and Wall Street people don't know sh*t about the wrestling business, with the possible exception of the people at Sinclair, who were smart enough to buy a wrestling company to fill TV time with something that might make them a bit of money, but even if it doesn't, they're still losing a net total of less than they would is they were paying for the rights to something like Friends.

When the ratings start to grow to more than they were the first week, then we can talk.

WWE did it because they're a household name, AEW did it because it's a high rated show in the network in less than their first year.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 11th, '20, 19:32

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 11th, '20, 14:53
And so did WWE despite clearly declining ratings and attendance. If the last few years have proved anything, it's that TV people and Wall Street people don't know sh*t about the wrestling business, with the possible exception of the people at Sinclair, who were smart enough to buy a wrestling company to fill TV time with something that might make them a bit of money, but even if it doesn't, they're still losing a net total of less than they would is they were paying for the rights to something like Friends.

When the ratings start to grow to more than they were the first week, then we can talk.

WWE did it because they're a household name, AEW did it because it's a high rated show in the network in less than their first year.

And WWE was the highest-rated show on USA. You think that pro-wrestling with it's extra-low ad sales would have warranted that high a price "just because it's WWE." F*ck no. They got the time and money for the same reason AEW did: they bring viewers with them.
The task for AEW now if they want to grow is to get more viewers. Banking on just your already-established audience is not a formula for growth. Then maybe next time they'll get even more money.