Big Red Machine wrote:
I'm not trying to compare markets. I'm talking sheer numbers. My point is that in the last few years, ROH has opened up EIGHT successful new markets. Successful meaning that they have drawn at least 500 or so their most recent time there, and there has been a progressive rise in the number of fans at the shows each time they came to the market. And that is just eight cities that ROH recently became more accessible in. If we assume that most of the other markets ROH has recently become more accessable in have had a simialr (or even HALF the amount of growth), then there is absolutely no way that PWG has gotten more fans than that. We're talking the TENS OF THOUSANDS. Do you really think PWG has made TENS OF THOUSANDS of news fans in the past few years?
yes, i truly believe that PWG has gained that number of fans worldwide. only thing stopping them, from what i heard first hand from that guy from ireland, is that a lot of people overseas can't play PWG DVDs because of region problems. But hell, maybe ROH taking their guys away is the only thing stopping PWG to going to iPPV and take a new leap.

OH COME ON! You can't possibly just be defining random, tossed together tag matches like the F'n Machines vs. Best Friends as a dream match!
You want form form after 2011 (assuming you want to ignore Steen vs. Nakamura?) How about Eddie Edwards vs. Taiji Ishimori? Or AJ Styles vs. Adam Cole? Look. I LOVE Wrestling's Cutest Tag Team, but there is not a single match in the world for them that I would even consider to be CLOSE to a "dream match."
I'll you the Zack Sabre Jr. matches. I'll give you Dojo Bros vs. Future Shock. I'll give you some various flippy combination of AR Fox, Rich Swann, and Ricochet (assuming Gabe didn't get to it first). I'll even help you out a little and give you El Generico vs. Dick Togo, Joe vs. Super Dragon, and Punk vs. Super Dragon, and Davey vs, Low Ki (Davey wasn't quite big enough at the time, but he was at the point where everyone was anxiously awaiting for that match to be something awesome). That's it (unless there are some Dragon Gate guy dream matches I am missing). That's nowhere near ROH's list. And furthermore, ROH's list mostly includes guys THEY helped make. Austin Aries vs. KENTA wouldn't have meant sh*t in 2004. But by 2006, ROH had elevated Aries to the level where it was a dream match. Same with Roddy. Same with Nigel. Same with Joe. Same with Homicide. Same with Eddie Edwards Arguably the same with Davey and Claudio, the Wolves, reDRagon, Kyle as a singles guy... I could go on and on. PWG usually just takes guys who made their names elsewhere and throws them together (and often they are the ones who get to do this because ROH and Gabe won't work together or because Dragon Gate and New Japan don't work together).
Also, if you want to ignore Steen vs. Nakamura, you should ignore the Zack Sabre Jr. matches, too, because he's not a regular


you didn't ask for PWG dream matches, just matches that wouldn't have eventually happened somewhere else, those tag teams are examples of things that PWG put out there and made proper use of them. bunch of matches that PWG has capitalized on. Furthermore, you're bring up matches that happened between 4-10 yrs ago! I would never debate the quality of ROH before 2011 because back then, ROH WAS the bee's knees of wrestling. I talk current ROH, up in their pedestal, that is just soo lackluster, i reiterate, ROH hasn't really delivered in the dream match section for a while now. I'll give you AJ vs Cole, but even lesser promotions made out better dream matches out of Okada than ROH.

And ok, let's take out the Sabre matches, but then your list loses matches with Kobashi, Ibushi, Misawa, Storm, Kojima, arguably KENTA, CIMA, LAX, and Kikurato



What extra content? Two Youtube "music videos," a few short video-wire promos, and four short vingettes of their dates for the epilogue? That's not much extra effort at all. Aside from those, everything you needed was right there on the DVDs, in the matches or backstage segments, and they made it so that you really didn't even need to buy every DVD. They would do something on the first weekend of the month that would introduce the new advancement in the story (like the revelation that Lacey is banging Cabana, or Cabana starting to feel bad about the way he and Lacey have been treating Jacobs) and then on the second weekend of the month (usually the Saturday show) they would do advance the angle again to set up the next month (like Cabana trying to get Lacey to treat Jimmy better, Lacey refusing, Cabana trying to convince Jimmy that Lacey is a terrible person and Jacobs turning on Cabana).

the point i'm making is that this, like other stories worked best because they had a bunch of extra content happening between shows. I'm not sure if you did, but maybe experiencing this as it was going on could had been a more complex. Compare how harder it is to follow chikara right now against before when there where so many more blogs and videos coming out.


The fans in CHIKARA are the same way. It's not unique. The "vacation" or total freedom to do what you want atmosphere was what Beyond Wrestling was founded on. it's not unique or even new. PWG just did it with more exposure
You keep singling out things. some companies have the fans (chikara), some the wrestling (roh, evolve, dgusa), some have the roster. PWG has them all.

Would it have been BETTER for Davey to win it from Tyler? Yes... but at that time, Davey was a) splitting time with New Japan, and b) thought he was going to be retiring at the end of the year. Ideally they would have done what Gabe was planning on doing and had Tyler beat Nigel at Final Battle 2008, then had Davey beat Tyler some time in later 2009 or 2010.
The buildup to Eddie's win (and feud with Davey started in early 2010, when Eddie beat Davey in the Finals of the TV Title Tournament. That set the pace for everything: Davey was the "chosen one" but Eddie kept winning things before Davey did. A singles title. SOTF. And finally, Eddie won the world title over Davey's long-time rival, and the guy who everyone figured Davey would be at Final Battle 2010, but Davey couldn't get the job done.
Sometimes the build to a match begins before you realize it. Tyler Black lost all three of his singles matches against Bryan Danielson in 2008. Why? Because Gabe was planning on booking a title defense against Dragon early in Tyler's reign, with the hook being the Dragon was 3-0 against Tyler.
Of course Roddy's story had to end in a world title win. If he didn't win the title, what reason does he have to stick with Truth Martini? Truth promised in a world title, and Truth delivered where Roddy on his own failed. If he doesn't win the title, what are you going to do? Feud Roddy against Josh Raymond and Christian Able, an undercard tag team? (Remember Elgin wasn't in the company yet)
The three ref bumps in the world title match at Supercard of Honor V build up the need for Funk's role as special enforcer in the match where Roddy won the title.
Davey: But that's when he was super hot, just like today you make sure that the guy you want as champ gets exclusivity of some sort with you and not japan. When Davey won the title, it was a 'you deserve it' moment, it wasn't a YES YES YES moment. At that time, Eddie had taken a whole lot of fans to his side. The Kings where SUUUPER hot, Generico was in GOD mode, and Steen in DEVIL mode while absent. Davey had just lost soo much momentum by then.

Roddy's didn't have to end in a title win, they were heels, it could have ended with a series of lost title shots until the HoT feuded with someone else. Heels always promise that they'll win titles, Heel managers always promise this, it doesn't always have to come true.


it interest me as much as hearing that Ryback and Cesaro had a good match, i may or may not watch a recap, but that's it. Ciampa snapping at Cruise was ok, but it's Ciampa, i wasn't surprised or anything. I was more interested in Mike Bennett's bachelor party than any of their major shows.
Because it's a "PWG-style" show?
Yeah, because it's fun to watch, ROH gets down from their pedestal they put themselves on and have fun for one night, and the fans have fun. It's like ROH really ate that bullshit from Cornette that comedy, or in this case fun, doesn't sell. And i'm not even talking comedy like CHIKARA, i'm talking straight up fun. it's like ROH can't figure out how to have fun while being serious.

It's not out of nowhere, though (at least according to the Observer), though I'm sure the Elgin mess (or specifically PWG's part in booking him to lose to an undercard guy) played a big role in it) How else would you have liked ROH to handle it?
It's out of nowhere in the sense that they're not giving time to fix up anything that's going on. At least from what it seems with Dreamwave, they just pulled Elgin with not a lot of time in advanced. We're still to see if they'll allow Kyle and Cole to work PWG's show, if they don't Kyle may need to vacate the title and screw up whatever plans PWG had for some of their talent. Personally, i think ROH should had been smarter on how they allow their champs to be booked, just like every other big company, keep tabs on what plans do other promotions have for your champs, make sure Elgin understands that he is supposed to be booked in a particular way, and most importantly, don't overreact over your champ getting rolled up, ROLLED UP! by the guy that just rolled up Steen!

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:
I'm not trying to compare markets. I'm talking sheer numbers. My point is that in the last few years, ROH has opened up EIGHT successful new markets. Successful meaning that they have drawn at least 500 or so their most recent time there, and there has been a progressive rise in the number of fans at the shows each time they came to the market. And that is just eight cities that ROH recently became more accessible in. If we assume that most of the other markets ROH has recently become more accessable in have had a simialr (or even HALF the amount of growth), then there is absolutely no way that PWG has gotten more fans than that. We're talking the TENS OF THOUSANDS. Do you really think PWG has made TENS OF THOUSANDS of news fans in the past few years?
yes, i truly believe that PWG has gained that number of fans worldwide. only thing stopping them, from what i heard first hand from that guy from ireland, is that a lot of people overseas can't play PWG DVDs because of region problems. But hell, maybe ROH taking their guys away is the only thing stopping PWG to going to iPPV and take a new leap.
I think that number is way high. Your iPPV idea is very interesting, though. It definitely makes a lot of sense for them, IMO
OH COME ON! You can't possibly just be defining random, tossed together tag matches like the F'n Machines vs. Best Friends as a dream match!
You want form form after 2011 (assuming you want to ignore Steen vs. Nakamura?) How about Eddie Edwards vs. Taiji Ishimori? Or AJ Styles vs. Adam Cole? Look. I LOVE Wrestling's Cutest Tag Team, but there is not a single match in the world for them that I would even consider to be CLOSE to a "dream match."
I'll you the Zack Sabre Jr. matches. I'll give you Dojo Bros vs. Future Shock. I'll give you some various flippy combination of AR Fox, Rich Swann, and Ricochet (assuming Gabe didn't get to it first). I'll even help you out a little and give you El Generico vs. Dick Togo, Joe vs. Super Dragon, and Punk vs. Super Dragon, and Davey vs, Low Ki (Davey wasn't quite big enough at the time, but he was at the point where everyone was anxiously awaiting for that match to be something awesome). That's it (unless there are some Dragon Gate guy dream matches I am missing). That's nowhere near ROH's list. And furthermore, ROH's list mostly includes guys THEY helped make. Austin Aries vs. KENTA wouldn't have meant sh*t in 2004. But by 2006, ROH had elevated Aries to the level where it was a dream match. Same with Roddy. Same with Nigel. Same with Joe. Same with Homicide. Same with Eddie Edwards Arguably the same with Davey and Claudio, the Wolves, reDRagon, Kyle as a singles guy... I could go on and on. PWG usually just takes guys who made their names elsewhere and throws them together (and often they are the ones who get to do this because ROH and Gabe won't work together or because Dragon Gate and New Japan don't work together).
Also, if you want to ignore Steen vs. Nakamura, you should ignore the Zack Sabre Jr. matches, too, because he's not a regular


you didn't ask for PWG dream matches, just matches that wouldn't have eventually happened somewhere else, those tag teams are examples of things that PWG put out there and made proper use of them. bunch of matches that PWG has capitalized on. Furthermore, you're bring up matches that happened between 4-10 yrs ago! I would never debate the quality of ROH before 2011 because back then, ROH WAS the bee's knees of wrestling. I talk current ROH, up in their pedestal, that is just soo lackluster, i reiterate, ROH hasn't really delivered in the dream match section for a while now. I'll give you AJ vs Cole, but even lesser promotions made out better dream matches out of Okada than ROH.

I thought my asking for dream matches was implied. You're whole premise was that this isn't cool because ROH isn't letting PWG book these dream matches.
You don't think Elgin was the best match-up for Okada? It needed to be a heavyweight, because when things were being determined, Okada was the IWGP Heavyweight Champ. Who else could have done it. AJ was only in that match because New Japan decidd to switch the title but didn't clue ROH in. I know that ROH didn't want to do AJ vs. Elgin straight up against because they'd already done it twice in the previous three months. Who else could they have used? Steen needed to face Nakamura, and New Japan wanted Bennett to wrestle Tanashi.


And ok, let's take out the Sabre matches, but then your list loses matches with Kobashi, Ibushi, Misawa, Storm, Kojima, arguably KENTA, CIMA, LAX, and Kikurato
And if we're taking guys out who aren't regulars, then you don't really have many dream matches at all. I'm not saying we should take those matches out. I'm just applying the same logic you did to disqualify the Nakamura vs. Steen match.
And I would argue that even with this more restrictive criteria, ROH should still get credit for the Dragon vs. Storm match because Lance loved the product (and Dragon in particular) so much that he was willing to come out of retirement to work with him.

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What extra content? Two Youtube "music videos," a few short video-wire promos, and four short vingettes of their dates for the epilogue? That's not much extra effort at all. Aside from those, everything you needed was right there on the DVDs, in the matches or backstage segments, and they made it so that you really didn't even need to buy every DVD. They would do something on the first weekend of the month that would introduce the new advancement in the story (like the revelation that Lacey is banging Cabana, or Cabana starting to feel bad about the way he and Lacey have been treating Jacobs) and then on the second weekend of the month (usually the Saturday show) they would do advance the angle again to set up the next month (like Cabana trying to get Lacey to treat Jimmy better, Lacey refusing, Cabana trying to convince Jimmy that Lacey is a terrible person and Jacobs turning on Cabana).

the point i'm making is that this, like other stories worked best because they had a bunch of extra content happening between shows. I'm not sure if you did, but maybe experiencing this as it was going on could had been a more complex. Compare how harder it is to follow chikara right now against before when there where so many more blogs and videos coming out.
I think that is because CHIKARA piled on so many new characters in the Wrestling Is... promotions. If it was just the same crew it had been pre-Wrestling Is... it would be easier. If all of the content was available on the DVDs (and I'm almost 100% certain that all of it for Jimmy Loves Lacey was- the music videos and the four-day date were released as DVD extras) fans should have no problem following it.

The fans in CHIKARA are the same way. It's not unique. The "vacation" or total freedom to do what you want atmosphere was what Beyond Wrestling was founded on. it's not unique or even new. PWG just did it with more exposure
You keep singling out things. some companies have the fans (chikara), some the wrestling (roh, evolve, dgusa), some have the roster. PWG has them all.
I'd disgree that they have the wrestling. Up and down the card, ROH is much easier for me to sit through. PWG is also lacking the storytelling/booking that makes the shows interesting to me. If I want to see flips, what is the difference between one six man spotfest featuring ACH, Swann, Ricochet and the Young Bucks or any other? What makes this month's show any different from last month's show when 99% of the parts are interchangeable?
Would it have been BETTER for Davey to win it from Tyler? Yes... but at that time, Davey was a) splitting time with New Japan, and b) thought he was going to be retiring at the end of the year. Ideally they would have done what Gabe was planning on doing and had Tyler beat Nigel at Final Battle 2008, then had Davey beat Tyler some time in later 2009 or 2010.
The buildup to Eddie's win (and feud with Davey started in early 2010, when Eddie beat Davey in the Finals of the TV Title Tournament. That set the pace for everything: Davey was the "chosen one" but Eddie kept winning things before Davey did. A singles title. SOTF. And finally, Eddie won the world title over Davey's long-time rival, and the guy who everyone figured Davey would be at Final Battle 2010, but Davey couldn't get the job done.
Sometimes the build to a match begins before you realize it. Tyler Black lost all three of his singles matches against Bryan Danielson in 2008. Why? Because Gabe was planning on booking a title defense against Dragon early in Tyler's reign, with the hook being the Dragon was 3-0 against Tyler.
Of course Roddy's story had to end in a world title win. If he didn't win the title, what reason does he have to stick with Truth Martini? Truth promised in a world title, and Truth delivered where Roddy on his own failed. If he doesn't win the title, what are you going to do? Feud Roddy against Josh Raymond and Christian Able, an undercard tag team? (Remember Elgin wasn't in the company yet)
The three ref bumps in the world title match at Supercard of Honor V build up the need for Funk's role as special enforcer in the match where Roddy won the title.
Davey: But that's when he was super hot, just like today you make sure that the guy you want as champ gets exclusivity of some sort with you and not japan. When Davey won the title, it was a 'you deserve it' moment, it wasn't a YES YES YES moment. At that time, Eddie had taken a whole lot of fans to his side. The Kings where SUUUPER hot, Generico was in GOD mode, and Steen in DEVIL mode while absent. Davey had just lost soo much momentum by then.

Roddy's didn't have to end in a title win, they were heels, it could have ended with a series of lost title shots until the HoT feuded with someone else. Heels always promise that they'll win titles, Heel managers always promise this, it doesn't always have to come true.
Davey's- at that time they didn't have the ability to really compete with the money New Japan could offer because they hadn't been bought by Sinclair yet.
With Generico, he didn't want to sign a contract, so they weren't putting the belt on him (they got him to sign a six month contract, he tried it, and decided he didn't like being under contract to anyone (this is all according to Cornette anyway).
Eddie had so many fans on his side because of both his amazing string of matches recently and the fact that the show was in NY, where he won the eternal gratitude of the fans for doing the ladder war with a broken arm.
And I would heavily disagree that Davey had lost any momentum at that point. He started losing momentum when he never defended the title in ROH, (both because of overseas commitments and because Cornette kept booking him in tag matches). But the only reason Roddy went to Truth in the first place was because Truth guaranteed him a title. He wasn't a "true believer" in the book of Truth the way that Elgin or Raymond and Able were, so why would Roddy have stayed with Truth if Truth couldn't deliver a title?

it interest me as much as hearing that Ryback and Cesaro had a good match, i may or may not watch a recap, but that's it. Ciampa snapping at Cruise was ok, but it's Ciampa, i wasn't surprised or anything. I was more interested in Mike Bennett's bachelor party than any of their major shows.
Because it's a "PWG-style" show?
Yeah, because it's fun to watch, ROH gets down from their pedestal they put themselves on and have fun for one night, and the fans have fun. It's like ROH really ate that bullshit from Cornette that comedy, or in this case fun, doesn't sell. And i'm not even talking comedy like CHIKARA, i'm talking straight up fun. it's like ROH can't figure out how to have fun while being serious.
I think you're totally wrong about all of this. ROH can't figure out how to have fun while being serious? Dude! The Briscoes. reDRagon. Kevin Steen. Truth Martini's whole Hoopla phase. Maria, Bennett, and the "Title of Love." The Romantic Touch. Veda Scott. All of these things are oodles of fun while still being a serious wrestling product. But you wouldn't know that because, by your own admission, you're just following the results online instead of watching the shows.

I also heavily disagree with you about ROH being on a snooty pedestal. They are trying to put on a good professional wrestling show.

It's not out of nowhere, though (at least according to the Observer), though I'm sure the Elgin mess (or specifically PWG's part in booking him to lose to an undercard guy) played a big role in it) How else would you have liked ROH to handle it?
It's out of nowhere in the sense that they're not giving time to fix up anything that's going on. At least from what it seems with Dreamwave, they just pulled Elgin with not a lot of time in advanced. We're still to see if they'll allow Kyle and Cole to work PWG's show, if they don't Kyle may need to vacate the title and screw up whatever plans PWG had for some of their talent. Personally, i think ROH should had been smarter on how they allow their champs to be booked, just like every other big company, keep tabs on what plans do other promotions have for your champs, make sure Elgin understands that he is supposed to be booked in a particular way, and most importantly, don't overreact over your champ getting rolled up, ROLLED UP! by the guy that just rolled up Steen!

So would you rather ROH waited until after their big PPV, when Elgin could get caught in a snowstorm? Or would you rather they wait until the weather report for that week comes out and pull Elgin less than a week before the Dreamwave show instead of a few weeks? No matter when they made this decision, there was always going to be someone booked on some shows who would have had to pull out on just a few weeks notice. If they had waited a month, it would have been some other promotion that screwed. Dreamwave just got unlucky. It's best for ROH do to it as soon as possible so that these promotion know not to consider Elgin or Cole or the Briscoes in their future plans so that they can start making new plans as soon as possible.
As for PWG, I refer you to your question about what happened when TNA pulled it's talent from ROH. You make new plans. Gabe lost the use of Daniels (who was in the middle of a hot feud with Punk) and AJ (who was the newly-crowned Pure Champion, and was being positioned for a Title vs. Title feud with Joe)... so what did Gabe do? He created Generation Next. Like the AIW promoter said: You adapt.
As for the Elgin thing, ROH obviously thought that Elgin knew he shouldn't be losing like that, and there was some miscommunication between them. ROH has now taken steps to ensure that this doesn't happen again.

Big Red Machine wrote:

You don't think Elgin was the best match-up for Okada? It needed to be a heavyweight, because when things were being determined, Okada was the IWGP Heavyweight Champ. Who else could have done it. AJ was only in that match because New Japan decidd to switch the title but didn't clue ROH in. I know that ROH didn't want to do AJ vs. Elgin straight up against because they'd already done it twice in the previous three months. Who else could they have used? Steen needed to face Nakamura, and New Japan wanted Bennett to wrestle Tanashi.

And if we're taking guys out who aren't regulars, then you don't really have many dream matches at all. I'm not saying we should take those matches out. I'm just applying the same logic you did to disqualify the Nakamura vs. Steen match.
And I would argue that even with this more restrictive criteria, ROH should still get credit for the Dragon vs. Storm match because Lance loved the product (and Dragon in particular) so much that he was willing to come out of retirement to work with him.

to me the error was making it a 3-way and the other night they pretty much booked a New Japan match anyway

and that's why I initially said 'aside from the njpw shows. but the rest has been quite underwhelming, not even the show with NOAH or CHIKARA were that interesting.

and yes, ROH gets credit for Dragon vs Storm, but again, it's a match that happened almost a decade ago, back when ROH was really really good and not just good


I'd disgree that they have the wrestling. Up and down the card, ROH is much easier for me to sit through. PWG is also lacking the storytelling/booking that makes the shows interesting to me. If I want to see flips, what is the difference between one six man spotfest featuring ACH, Swann, Ricochet and the Young Bucks or any other? What makes this month's show any different from last month's show when 99% of the parts are interchangeable?
this is where we'll disagree. I cannot sit through a complete ROH show at all. I care not for half of the roster and their storylines. I've seen matches from TT, Hanson, Coleman, Whitmer, Page....snore of the week. There is not a single thing in ROH matches that i can't get from a PWG show + the fun.

What makes this month's show any different from last month's show when 99% of the parts are interchangeable?
The matches obviously, the different match-ups that you may or may have not seen before

What makes ROH shows worth my money when i can simply follow the story in recaps and reviews?


But the only reason Roddy went to Truth in the first place was because Truth guaranteed him a title. He wasn't a "true believer" in the book of Truth the way that Elgin or Raymond and Able were, so why would Roddy have stayed with Truth if Truth couldn't deliver a title?
If there has ever been a ROH manager with the power of bullshit in his words, it's Truth, he could have easily talking shit to Roddy to keep him in the HoT


I think you're totally wrong about all of this. ROH can't figure out how to have fun while being serious? Dude! The Briscoes. reDRagon. Kevin Steen. Truth Martini's whole Hoopla phase. Maria, Bennett, and the "Title of Love." The Romantic Touch. Veda Scott. All of these things are oodles of fun while still being a serious wrestling product. But you wouldn't know that because, by your own admission, you're just following the results online instead of watching the shows.

I also heavily disagree with you about ROH being on a snooty pedestal. They are trying to put on a good professional wrestling show.
yeah, all of that is as funny as Colt Cabana comedy. I've watched stuff from all of these guys, was it funny? yeah sometimes, somethings. was it fun? meh, it was just like watching a normal show, nothing you turn off your screen with a smile. nothing i would laugh out loud. They may make funny promos now and then, add a little comedy to the wrestling now and then, but that's not what makes it fun. The atmosphere is not fun, it's serious professional wrestling, it's just like cracking a joke in a serious movie. I'll give you Martini's Hoopla thing, but because it did create 'Night of Hoopla', that was fun

and yeah, ROH ARE putting out a professional wrestling show. That doesn't stop them from taking themselves waay to seriously. ROH is 'no smile' Lance Storm while PWG is 'fun fun fun' Chris Jericho.

So would you rather ROH waited until after their big PPV, when Elgin could get caught in a snowstorm? Or would you rather they wait until the weather report for that week comes out and pull Elgin less than a week before the Dreamwave show instead of a few weeks? No matter when they made this decision, there was always going to be someone booked on some shows who would have had to pull out on just a few weeks notice. If they had waited a month, it would have been some other promotion that screwed. Dreamwave just got unlucky. It's best for ROH do to it as soon as possible so that these promotion know not to consider Elgin or Cole or the Briscoes in their future plans so that they can start making new plans as soon as possible.
As for PWG, I refer you to your question about what happened when TNA pulled it's talent from ROH. You make new plans. Gabe lost the use of Daniels (who was in the middle of a hot feud with Punk) and AJ (who was the newly-crowned Pure Champion, and was being positioned for a Title vs. Title feud with Joe)... so what did Gabe do? He created Generation Next. Like the AIW promoter said: You adapt.
As for the Elgin thing, ROH obviously thought that Elgin knew he shouldn't be losing like that, and there was some miscommunication between them. ROH has now taken steps to ensure that this doesn't happen again.

I rather ROH workout the final appearances of their guys with the other promotions instead of simply pulling them, i'm sure the decision happened months ago, they could have given some time's notice. PWG could have changed the title and written off Cole at Untitled II (which would have been better since (1) Roddy gets the title (2) Trevor Lee gets bragging rights of kicking out Steen, Elgin, Cole with defeats)

And yeah, of course PWG can adapt, they've been doing it better than anyone lately since most of the new hires for WWE and TNA came from PWG regulars, but just because promotions are capable of adapting is not an excuse to be dick and not give them some weeks notice. Even WWE allows their new hires to finish out their obligations with indie promotions.

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:

You don't think Elgin was the best match-up for Okada? It needed to be a heavyweight, because when things were being determined, Okada was the IWGP Heavyweight Champ. Who else could have done it. AJ was only in that match because New Japan decidd to switch the title but didn't clue ROH in. I know that ROH didn't want to do AJ vs. Elgin straight up against because they'd already done it twice in the previous three months. Who else could they have used? Steen needed to face Nakamura, and New Japan wanted Bennett to wrestle Tanashi.

And if we're taking guys out who aren't regulars, then you don't really have many dream matches at all. I'm not saying we should take those matches out. I'm just applying the same logic you did to disqualify the Nakamura vs. Steen match.
And I would argue that even with this more restrictive criteria, ROH should still get credit for the Dragon vs. Storm match because Lance loved the product (and Dragon in particular) so much that he was willing to come out of retirement to work with him.

to me the error was making it a 3-way and the other night they pretty much booked a New Japan match anyway

and that's why I initially said 'aside from the njpw shows. but the rest has been quite underwhelming, not even the show with NOAH or CHIKARA were that interesting.

and yes, ROH gets credit for Dragon vs Storm, but again, it's a match that happened almost a decade ago, back when ROH was really really good and not just good
The match wound up as a three-way because Cedric Alexander, who was basically the only guy left without a match, got hurt, and ROH figured that making it a three-way both allow them to at least partially deliver on Elgin vs. Okada (and the fact that Elgin had to pin AJ, while not ideal, was probably intended to set those guys up for an ROH World Title match at some point after Elgin beat Cole)
The CHIKARA show was exciting, but not for CHIKARA-related reasons. The real big match to come out of that whole deal was the Steen-Kingston match on the CHIKARA show that day. That being said, the ROH show still got to have Davey & Kyle vs. WGTT, and I remember people being very hyped for Jigsaw and Hallowicked challenging for the titles because we all thought this show was the next step in some big collaboration between ROH and CHIKARA, rather than being pretty much the end of it.

I think you're still stuck in the "Cornette Era" mindset. Yes. ROH was quite dull during the Cornette Era. But that's been over for two years now. Is ROH at the level it was from 2004-2008 or from 2010 until the Cornette Era? No. But I don't think it is really much worse than 2009.
If you want something with the more old-school feel, though, check out ASE VI.

I'd disgree that they have the wrestling. Up and down the card, ROH is much easier for me to sit through. PWG is also lacking the storytelling/booking that makes the shows interesting to me. If I want to see flips, what is the difference between one six man spotfest featuring ACH, Swann, Ricochet and the Young Bucks or any other? What makes this month's show any different from last month's show when 99% of the parts are interchangeable?
this is where we'll disagree. I cannot sit through a complete ROH show at all. I care not for half of the roster and their storylines. I've seen matches from TT, Hanson, Coleman, Whitmer, Page....snore of the week. There is not a single thing in ROH matches that i can't get from a PWG show + the fun.

What makes this month's show any different from last month's show when 99% of the parts are interchangeable?
The matches obviously, the different match-ups that you may or may have not seen before

What makes ROH shows worth my money when i can simply follow the story in recaps and reviews?
What can you get from ROH that you can't get from PWG? Angles. Is Whitmer a bland wrestler? Yes. Is he nowhere near as good as he was back before his neck injury? Yes (and he was bland, then, too). But the way that the whole decade angle has been handled has been fantastic. Whitmer actually HAS some character now!
You also get the chance to feel like you're seeing something develop. ROH is in a bit of a rebuilding period now. Over the course of about two years (Sept. 2009-August 2011) ROH lost a HUGE chunk of their core roster: Dragon, Nigel, Tyler, Aries, Hero, Claudio, Generico, Cabana. And not just the big names, but important midcarders like Erick Stevens and Necro Butcher, too. They have had to rebuild their roster. Some guys have worked out (Elgin, Cole, Kyle, Fish, Cedric, ACH) and others haven't (SCUM, TJP, Mondo, DCFC, QT Marshall). At the same time, they are now fighting for new talent with Gabe (which was never a concern before). They are rebuilding. Watching A guy like Cedric get better and better is just like 2004 and 2005, when you got to see guys like Gen. Next, Nigel, Cabana, and Jimmy Jacobs step up.
With the lone exceptions of Candice, PWG doesn't provide that.
If you want "different matches you might not have seen before, you should have been watching ROH this year! There have been tons of great first-run matches with guys like AJ, Kaz, Daniels. Heel Jay Lethal feels completely new and fresh.
What makes ROH shows worth your money? Great matches, and matches that mean something. I could follow PWG just through reading reviews and recaps and results, but that's not even worth doing because there is no story. And you'll reply that I would be missing the experience of it. Which is the same point I'll make to you about ROH. If you're only going to watch from afar, it is much more difficult to grown invested in the characters.

But the only reason Roddy went to Truth in the first place was because Truth guaranteed him a title. He wasn't a "true believer" in the book of Truth the way that Elgin or Raymond and Able were, so why would Roddy have stayed with Truth if Truth couldn't deliver a title?
If there has ever been a ROH manager with the power of bullshit in his words, it's Truth, he could have easily talking shit to Roddy to keep him in the HoT
Except that Truth hadn't been established yet. The reason Truth is able to do that now is because he delivered to Roddy. And even Truth's bullsh*t isn't impervious, and both Roddy and Elgin got tired of it and left the stable.

I think you're totally wrong about all of this. ROH can't figure out how to have fun while being serious? Dude! The Briscoes. reDRagon. Kevin Steen. Truth Martini's whole Hoopla phase. Maria, Bennett, and the "Title of Love." The Romantic Touch. Veda Scott. All of these things are oodles of fun while still being a serious wrestling product. But you wouldn't know that because, by your own admission, you're just following the results online instead of watching the shows.

I also heavily disagree with you about ROH being on a snooty pedestal. They are trying to put on a good professional wrestling show.
yeah, all of that is as funny as Colt Cabana comedy. I've watched stuff from all of these guys, was it funny? yeah sometimes, somethings. was it fun? meh, it was just like watching a normal show, nothing you turn off your screen with a smile. nothing i would laugh out loud. They may make funny promos now and then, add a little comedy to the wrestling now and then, but that's not what makes it fun. The atmosphere is not fun, it's serious professional wrestling, it's just like cracking a joke in a serious movie. I'll give you Martini's Hoopla thing, but because it did create 'Night of Hoopla', that was fun
I will heavily disagree that ROH's atmosphere isn't fun. The fans all seem to be having a great time. I'll let you know for sure in a few weeks.
Secondly, your problem seems to be that you've just seen ROH stuff too much. What makes you think you won't start to feel the same way about PWG in a year or two. There's only so many times Kyle O'Reilly can do the sleazy-kyle pelvic thrusts before it stops being funny.
Is wrestling supposed to be fun? Yes. But it is also supposed to be other things. There are times when you are supposed to be angry or happy or intrigued or sad or relieved. That's what a good story is.[/color]

and yeah, ROH ARE putting out a professional wrestling show. That doesn't stop them from taking themselves waay to seriously. ROH is 'no smile' Lance Storm while PWG is 'fun fun fun' Chris Jericho.
And if you ask most people (including Jericho himself) what their favorite Jericho feud was, they'll tell you it was his feud with HBK in 2008 when he was no fun Chris Jericho.
So would you rather ROH waited until after their big PPV, when Elgin could get caught in a snowstorm? Or would you rather they wait until the weather report for that week comes out and pull Elgin less than a week before the Dreamwave show instead of a few weeks? No matter when they made this decision, there was always going to be someone booked on some shows who would have had to pull out on just a few weeks notice. If they had waited a month, it would have been some other promotion that screwed. Dreamwave just got unlucky. It's best for ROH do to it as soon as possible so that these promotion know not to consider Elgin or Cole or the Briscoes in their future plans so that they can start making new plans as soon as possible.
As for PWG, I refer you to your question about what happened when TNA pulled it's talent from ROH. You make new plans. Gabe lost the use of Daniels (who was in the middle of a hot feud with Punk) and AJ (who was the newly-crowned Pure Champion, and was being positioned for a Title vs. Title feud with Joe)... so what did Gabe do? He created Generation Next. Like the AIW promoter said: You adapt.
As for the Elgin thing, ROH obviously thought that Elgin knew he shouldn't be losing like that, and there was some miscommunication between them. ROH has now taken steps to ensure that this doesn't happen again.

I rather ROH workout the final appearances of their guys with the other promotions instead of simply pulling them, i'm sure the decision happened months ago, they could have given some time's notice. PWG could have changed the title and written off Cole at Untitled II (which would have been better since (1) Roddy gets the title (2) Trevor Lee gets bragging rights of kicking out Steen, Elgin, Cole with defeats)

And yeah, of course PWG can adapt, they've been doing it better than anyone lately since most of the new hires for WWE and TNA came from PWG regulars, but just because promotions are capable of adapting is not an excuse to be dick and not give them some weeks notice. Even WWE allows their new hires to finish out their obligations with indie promotions.
Which new hires would those be? Steen? Generico? They also worked ROH. Drake? They signed him as a referee, and I think most still identify him with his work in CZW rather than PWG. Same for Sami.

Big Red Machine wrote:
I think you're still stuck in the "Cornette Era" mindset. Yes. ROH was quite dull during the Cornette Era. But that's been over for two years now. Is ROH at the level it was from 2004-2008 or from 2010 until the Cornette Era? No. But I don't think it is really much worse than 2009.
If you want something with the more old-school feel, though, check out ASE VI.
Except for the roster, half of this roster is quite uninteresting. a bunch of those guys are to me the same package with different name. Interchangeable and a bit generic. ROH could likely book anyone they wanted, yet they brought guys like TT, Coleman, or Hanson, or Marshall.

What can you get from ROH that you can't get from PWG? Angles. Is Whitmer a bland wrestler? Yes. Is he nowhere near as good as he was back before his neck injury? Yes (and he was bland, then, too). But the way that the whole decade angle has been handled has been fantastic. Whitmer actually HAS some character now!
exactly, the one thing that I can simply follow by reading recaps. A good match i know i need to watch, but storyline can always be followed without watching.


You also get the chance to feel like you're seeing something develop. ROH is in a bit of a rebuilding period now. Over the course of about two years (Sept. 2009-August 2011) ROH lost a HUGE chunk of their core roster: Dragon, Nigel, Tyler, Aries, Hero, Claudio, Generico, Cabana. And not just the big names, but important midcarders like Erick Stevens and Necro Butcher, too. They have had to rebuild their roster. Some guys have worked out (Elgin, Cole, Kyle, Fish, Cedric, ACH) and others haven't (SCUM, TJP, Mondo, DCFC, QT Marshall). At the same time, they are now fighting for new talent with Gabe (which was never a concern before). They are rebuilding. Watching A guy like Cedric get better and better is just like 2004 and 2005, when you got to see guys like Gen. Next, Nigel, Cabana, and Jimmy Jacobs step up.
Honestly, aside from Generico (who was pretty much out anyway), Steen, and the Wolves, ROH can't keep going to those names as an excuse to losing their core roster, it's been around 6 years (almost half of the companies history) that Dragon and Nigel stopped wrestling there. And also consider that half of those names where more or less pushed out of ROH regardless of the reason. ROH can't keep being in 'rebuild' mode and use it as an excuse for so long. 2013/2014 were not rebuild years. Half of 2013 could be transition between Cornette to Delirious, but that's it. I hate to use this example because you'll likely disagree, but TNA probably did a better job rebuilding their roster this year than ROH.


With the lone exceptions of Candice, PWG doesn't provide that.
If you want "different matches you might not have seen before, you should have been watching ROH this year! There have been tons of great first-run matches with guys like AJ, Kaz, Daniels. Heel Jay Lethal feels completely new and fresh.
What makes ROH shows worth your money? Great matches, and matches that mean something. I could follow PWG just through reading reviews and recaps and results, but that's not even worth doing because there is no story. And you'll reply that I would be missing the experience of it. Which is the same point I'll make to you about ROH. If you're only going to watch from afar, it is much more difficult to grown invested in the characters.
I don't think we're ever going to agree with this. It seems we're into wrestling for different reasons, or at least value things quite differently.

I will heavily disagree that ROH's atmosphere isn't fun. The fans all seem to be having a great time. I'll let you know for sure in a few weeks.
Secondly, your problem seems to be that you've just seen ROH stuff too much. What makes you think you won't start to feel the same way about PWG in a year or two. There's only so many times Kyle O'Reilly can do the sleazy-kyle pelvic thrusts before it stops being funny.
Is wrestling supposed to be fun? Yes. But it is also supposed to be other things. There are times when you are supposed to be angry or happy or intrigued or sad or relieved. That's what a good story is.
it's hard not to have a great time at a live show, but not everyone can manage to create the same feeling for those watching a DVD at home. And you bring up a good point here, it's not Kyle doing the Sleazy Kyle thing that is funny, repeating the same comedy spot over and over again is not fun/funny at all, exactly why I don't find Cabana funny, The Briscoes funny, etc. The things that are fun and funny is the unique reaction to the situation. Gargano reacting to the "Please Don't Tap" chants during the first minutes of chain wrestling at BOLA night 1, that's fun. Chucky T dressing as a woman. Roddy's Shitty Little Boots chants and the consequence Sabin's Awesome Little Boots chant. Candice using a Super Dragon mask. Stone Cold ACH. all those things that tend to just happen as a reaction to the fans or the situation, those are the things that make a show fun, funny, unique. I'm not watching a product, i'm part of the product.

ROH atmosphere is more serious, i feel like i need to sit down, shut my mouth, and applaud the performance. The only thing that this does for me is that when they do book dream matches, they do feel more epic than anywhere else.

Maybe that could be the reason, and maybe I could start to lose the interest in PWG. But what i do see here is that I lose interest in storylines, in gimmicks, but when it comes to wrestling, a good wrestling match will be good today and tomorrow. If PWG keeps bringing in new wrestlers every year, keep putting out shows with good wrestling and are fun to watch, if PWG stays faithful to their product, I can see myself watching PWG for years to come.

And if you ask most people (including Jericho himself) what their favorite Jericho feud was, they'll tell you it was his feud with HBK in 2008 when he was no fun Chris Jericho.
we all know he was acting. he's still fun in everything else


Which new hires would those be? Steen? Generico? They also worked ROH. Drake? They signed him as a referee, and I think most still identify him with his work in CZW rather than PWG. Same for Sami.

it's not about who created them, so what does it matter what Drake is identified by? But yeah, steen, generico, drake, callihan, davey, eddie, claudio, hero and Willie mack (who both came back). TJP's booking got somewhat restricted from what i understand, and now potentially Cole, O'Reilly, and Elgin. Pretty much all top guys, and yet their shows haven't suffered, nor they have had 'rebuilding' periods longer than a show or two, and even then, the most they do is bring in PPray, RockNES Monsters, those guys who usually deliver a lot of fun stuff, but their 'lower' card is already somewhat built and credible to take over just like that. At this point if KO does leave the title, you already have Ricochet, Hero, Ciampa, Gargano, or Roddy as credible title contenders.

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:
I think you're still stuck in the "Cornette Era" mindset. Yes. ROH was quite dull during the Cornette Era. But that's been over for two years now. Is ROH at the level it was from 2004-2008 or from 2010 until the Cornette Era? No. But I don't think it is really much worse than 2009.
If you want something with the more old-school feel, though, check out ASE VI.
Except for the roster, half of this roster is quite uninteresting. a bunch of those guys are to me the same package with different name. Interchangeable and a bit generic. ROH could likely book anyone they wanted, yet they brought guys like TT, Coleman, or Hanson, or Marshall.
QT Marshall was entirely a Jim Cornette deal. He was gone right after Cornette left. Coleman is a perfect undercard babyface who cuts GREAT promos and because of his ordination, actually brings a different spin on things than most others do. TT brings something unique in the ring. I'm not his biggest fan, but I certainly wouldn't call him generic. Hanson is... a guy. Yes. He has size that most of the rest of the roster doesn't, but having just one guy who is decently generic aside from his crazy look is not enough to make the whole roster feel generic.
What can you get from ROH that you can't get from PWG? Angles. Is Whitmer a bland wrestler? Yes. Is he nowhere near as good as he was back before his neck injury? Yes (and he was bland, then, too). But the way that the whole decade angle has been handled has been fantastic. Whitmer actually HAS some character now!
exactly, the one thing that I can simply follow by reading recaps. A good match i know i need to watch, but storyline can always be followed without watching.
You can certainly "follow" it, but I don't think you can really appreciate it as much. You can sit there and read recaps of the shows and say "ah, yes, what a clever finish, that leads to many different possibilities," but angles don't translate through words as well as they do through the emotion of seeing them.
Imagine Occupy Raw if you had only read about it. Would that make you anywhere near as excited for Mania as you would have been if you had actually seen it?
Or take the Danielson-McGuinness segment from the ROH Sixth Anniversary Show. I don't know if you have seen the segment before (it was floating around YouTube for a while), but if you haven't you should buy the DVD because the whole show is awesome.
First find an online recap of the show. Read that segment, then read the recap of the title match. Then actually go an watch the segment and the match (ROH has the match up on YouTube). There is NO WAY you will possibly feel the same watching it as you do just reading it. Words cannot possibly capture the emotion of the segment and the match.


You also get the chance to feel like you're seeing something develop. ROH is in a bit of a rebuilding period now. Over the course of about two years (Sept. 2009-August 2011) ROH lost a HUGE chunk of their core roster: Dragon, Nigel, Tyler, Aries, Hero, Claudio, Generico, Cabana. And not just the big names, but important midcarders like Erick Stevens and Necro Butcher, too. They have had to rebuild their roster. Some guys have worked out (Elgin, Cole, Kyle, Fish, Cedric, ACH) and others haven't (SCUM, TJP, Mondo, DCFC, QT Marshall). At the same time, they are now fighting for new talent with Gabe (which was never a concern before). They are rebuilding. Watching A guy like Cedric get better and better is just like 2004 and 2005, when you got to see guys like Gen. Next, Nigel, Cabana, and Jimmy Jacobs step up.
Honestly, aside from Generico (who was pretty much out anyway), Steen, and the Wolves, ROH can't keep going to those names as an excuse to losing their core roster, it's been around 6 years (almost half of the companies history) that Dragon and Nigel stopped wrestling there. And also consider that half of those names where more or less pushed out of ROH regardless of the reason. ROH can't keep being in 'rebuild' mode and use it as an excuse for so long. 2013/2014 were not rebuild years. Half of 2013 could be transition between Cornette to Delirious, but that's it. I hate to use this example because you'll likely disagree, but TNA probably did a better job rebuilding their roster this year than ROH.
The only guys who were "pushed out" of ROH were Cabana (who everyone seems to agree wasn't going anywhere anyway, and if you notice he doesn't work an other major indies like Gabe, or even ones that don't have contracts CHIKARA, CZW, or PWG, either), and Davey, and both of those were by their own doing. Generico was still willing to work with ROH without a contract (and he did) and Davey kicked himself out with his big mouth. Steen was happy in ROH- he just needed to make more money for his family, so he went to WWE. Eddie left with Davey because they both thought they were more valuable together than apart, and because he hoped he could make more money in TNA (and from what I ave heard, the Wolves atually got pretty good deals).
ANd you're assement was correct. I do indeed find comparing the job of building stars that ROH has done compared to what TNA has done in 2014 to be utterly ridiculous.


With the lone exceptions of Candice, PWG doesn't provide that.
If you want "different matches you might not have seen before, you should have been watching ROH this year! There have been tons of great first-run matches with guys like AJ, Kaz, Daniels. Heel Jay Lethal feels completely new and fresh.
What makes ROH shows worth your money? Great matches, and matches that mean something. I could follow PWG just through reading reviews and recaps and results, but that's not even worth doing because there is no story. And you'll reply that I would be missing the experience of it. Which is the same point I'll make to you about ROH. If you're only going to watch from afar, it is much more difficult to grown invested in the characters.
I don't think we're ever going to agree with this. It seems we're into wrestling for different reasons, or at least value things quite differently.
Yes.
I will heavily disagree that ROH's atmosphere isn't fun. The fans all seem to be having a great time. I'll let you know for sure in a few weeks.
Secondly, your problem seems to be that you've just seen ROH stuff too much. What makes you think you won't start to feel the same way about PWG in a year or two. There's only so many times Kyle O'Reilly can do the sleazy-kyle pelvic thrusts before it stops being funny.
Is wrestling supposed to be fun? Yes. But it is also supposed to be other things. There are times when you are supposed to be angry or happy or intrigued or sad or relieved. That's what a good story is.
it's hard not to have a great time at a live show, but not everyone can manage to create the same feeling for those watching a DVD at home. And you bring up a good point here, it's not Kyle doing the Sleazy Kyle thing that is funny, repeating the same comedy spot over and over again is not fun/funny at all, exactly why I don't find Cabana funny, The Briscoes funny, etc. The things that are fun and funny is the unique reaction to the situation. Gargano reacting to the "Please Don't Tap" chants during the first minutes of chain wrestling at BOLA night 1, that's fun. Chucky T dressing as a woman. Roddy's Shitty Little Boots chants and the consequence Sabin's Awesome Little Boots chant. Candice using a Super Dragon mask. Stone Cold ACH. all those things that tend to just happen as a reaction to the fans or the situation, those are the things that make a show fun, funny, unique. I'm not watching a product, i'm part of the product.


See, I don't find most of that stuff be fun. Especially using the Super Dragon mask. That's just stupid. The chants that I find "fun" are ones that either stem from the match or the personalities. Chanting "Hepatitus" at Rhett. All of the chants during the Christmas-themed street fight at Final Battle 2012. I enjoy CHIKARA chants and find them a lot more fun than PWG. The HELP, STEEN! HELP!" chants to encourage Steen to save Rich Knox and El Generico from the Young Bucks. That is my idea of a "fun" chant in PWG.



Which new hires would those be? Steen? Generico? They also worked ROH. Drake? They signed him as a referee, and I think most still identify him with his work in CZW rather than PWG. Same for Sami.

it's not about who created them, so what does it matter what Drake is identified by? But yeah, steen, generico, drake, callihan, davey, eddie, claudio, hero and Willie mack (who both came back). TJP's booking got somewhat restricted from what i understand, and now potentially Cole, O'Reilly, and Elgin. Pretty much all top guys, and yet their shows haven't suffered, nor they have had 'rebuilding' periods longer than a show or two, and even then, the most they do is bring in PPray, RockNES Monsters, those guys who usually deliver a lot of fun stuff, but their 'lower' card is already somewhat built and credible to take over just like that. At this point if KO does leave the title, you already have Ricochet, Hero, Ciampa, Gargano, or Roddy as credible title contenders.
Yes...but that's because they are all allowed to go out there and have spotfests all day, every day. They're not ready to take over those main event spots (the way that, for example, Nigel McGuinness was in ROH when Samoa Joe left, or the way that Davey was when Nigel and Dragon left). They feel ready because the titles in PWG don't mean sh*t and you could put all of the matches on the card in any random order and nothing would be any different. The show wouldn't build any differently, nothing would feel any different, and the crowd wouldn't react any differently. They've all been putting on "main event"-style matches for years in PWG, and as a result, no one sees anyone as anything more than just a guy on the card.