BRM Reviews the 1/2/2012 Raw (HORRIBLE!)

[cero2k]

Ace DID tell Miz who he was facing; you must have missed it....

My point is that it is ridiculous that these matches aren't kayfabe booked in advance. It is ridiculous that Miz didn't know who he was facing yet. Does anyone else find it ridiculous that WWE kayfabe goes in to most of its TV tapings without having matches for a lot of their top stars and almost always without a planned main event?

i personally feel it breaks more kayfabe to have a fully booked show before the show starts.

[Big Red Machine]

Ace DID tell Miz who he was facing; you must have missed it....

My point is that it is ridiculous that these matches aren't kayfabe booked in advance. It is ridiculous that Miz didn't know who he was facing yet. Does anyone else find it ridiculous that WWE kayfabe goes in to most of its TV tapings without having matches for a lot of their top stars and almost always without a planned main event?

i personally feel it breaks more kayfabe to have a fully booked show before the show starts.

Why? Indies do it all the time. Doing so not only makes sense, but it is better for drawing. If you have a confrontation this week... just have the match next week.

[cero2k]

My point is that it is ridiculous that these matches aren't kayfabe booked in advance. It is ridiculous that Miz didn't know who he was facing yet. Does anyone else find it ridiculous that WWE kayfabe goes in to most of its TV tapings without having matches for a lot of their top stars and almost always without a planned main event?

i personally feel it breaks more kayfabe to have a fully booked show before the show starts.

Why? Indies do it all the time. Doing so not only makes sense, but it is better for drawing. If you have a confrontation this week... just have the match next week.

indies do it because that's the way the sell tickets, by putting matches on a card. WWE doesn't need to, people tune in regardless of the card.

[badnewzxl]

^good point cero

I always found those things stupid. It is the sort of thing that works in the early 90's, but not anymore. And some of it was just so gratuitous. If you have Ryder almost being dragged down to the depths of hell, do you really need the giant column of fire?

More importantly, though, this angle of Cena's is a very human angle. Cena is dealing with the frustration that he feels from the fans who dislike him. It is a very human thing. It is no place for fireballs and lightning bolts and the lights magically going out.

Without the giant column of fire, it would just seem like Kane dragged Ryder under the ring. I can't believe you're scolding WWE for such unrealistic things, but everyone LOVES UltraMantis and that weird whateverthefuck he took from Ares at High Noon; how is that not the same thing?

And what's wrong with using the supernatural in a human story? It's been done throughout history, dude. Nothing helps a character examine their own humanity than an encounter with supernatural or otherworldly things. You're the one always talking about "suspension of disbelief."

[yourcrapsweak]

As for me being away from Kane for too long... not at all. The Kane that I first met was the Kane of 2002, and the Kane I grew to love was the Kane of about mid 1998 onwards. His debut and feud with Taker was well-booked, but I really didn't care for him shooting lightning bolts and whatnot. Magical powers are the sort of thing that need to be phased out of wrestling (except for CHIKARA, but CHIKARA is different), simply because they look ridiculous and make the show look ridiculous. They don't fit in.

It's cartoony but that's Kane's whole character. At least now. He's an evil mastermind. The Devil's Favorite Demon.

[Big Red Machine]

i personally feel it breaks more kayfabe to have a fully booked show before the show starts.

Why? Indies do it all the time. Doing so not only makes sense, but it is better for drawing. If you have a confrontation this week... just have the match next week.

indies do it because that's the way the sell tickets, by putting matches on a card. WWE doesn't need to, people tune in regardless of the card.

TNA usually has it announced before the show.

They might tune in, but they aren't excited. Hell, a lot of us here on the forum seem to be skipping Smackdown pretty often. I know that I wasn't planning on watching it this week until Seru's comment in the news thread, and I wouldn't have even considered watching it at all if Drew McIntyre wasn't on the card.

How many of you guys were anticipating Ziggler vs. Punk all week?

Same for Mark Henry & Dragon's cage match on the November Christmas Smackdown.

Hell... I'm really excited to see Dragon vs. Big Show this week.

[badnewzxl]

As for me being away from Kane for too long... not at all. The Kane that I first met was the Kane of 2002, and the Kane I grew to love was the Kane of about mid 1998 onwards. His debut and feud with Taker was well-booked, but I really didn't care for him shooting lightning bolts and whatnot. Magical powers are the sort of thing that need to be phased out of wrestling (except for CHIKARA, but CHIKARA is different), simply because they look ridiculous and make the show look ridiculous. They don't fit in.

It's cartoony but that's Kane's whole character. At least now. He's an evil mastermind. The Devil's Favorite Demon.

yea; do you not remember when he and Taker had their lightening bolt-off? That wasn't the early 90's; that was the late 90's and IT GOT OVER! If Taker can constantly be buried and come back still, Kane's allowed to fuck with fire all he wants.

[Big Red Machine]

^good point cero

I always found those things stupid. It is the sort of thing that works in the early 90's, but not anymore. And some of it was just so gratuitous. If you have Ryder almost being dragged down to the depths of hell, do you really need the giant column of fire?

More importantly, though, this angle of Cena's is a very human angle. Cena is dealing with the frustration that he feels from the fans who dislike him. It is a very human thing. It is no place for fireballs and lightning bolts and the lights magically going out.

Without the giant column of fire, it would just seem like Kane dragged Ryder under the ring. I can't believe you're scolding WWE for such unrealistic things, but everyone LOVES UltraMantis and that weird whateverthefuck he took from Ares at High Noon; how is that not the same thing?

The difference is that, in CHIKARA, is always done in a constant way. The Eye of Tyr is a mind-control device. With Kane, he has these magical powers that he sometimes can use and sometimes not. If Kane wanted to kill Zack Ryder, why not just call down a lightning bolt and electrocute him. We've seen Kane summon lightning inside before.

Look at Kane's turnbuckle pyro. Without the mystical powers, it is obviously Kane doing his taunt thing, which is the cue for the pyro guy to hit the controls to make the explosion. But this week, when Kane summoned it without being there... is it still that? Or was Kane using his superpowers to create an explosion? If he was, and he wanted to kill Zack Ryder, why not do it at some point when Ryder is on the top rope.

And the "abyss" under the ring is too far for me to suspend my disbelief. Do Kane and Taker create some sort of wormhole or something? How does the other stuff under there not fall in? It is a tremendous visual, and when done well, it really gets the point across, but the minute anyone thinks about it, it is ridiculous (and I mean even if you can accept that Kane/Taker/Sting have powers of teleportation, that is just them moving themselves- this is so much more than that). Thinking should never be the enemy.

I also think that they really screwed up the visual here. "Dragging someone down into the abyss" has always been done by having someone pop up out of the canvas, grab a leg and drag the guy down. Having Kane pop up, get out of the hole, beat up Ryder, get out of the ring, choke out Cena, then come back and try to drag Ryder down made you lose the sense of surprise that you get when someone pops up through the canvass. I was fine with Kane actually popping up. I marked out for that. But the time he went back to drag Ryder down, the sense of WOW! was already gone. Rather than Kane dragging Ryder down with him into the abyss, it felt a lot more like Kane was a cartoon caveman, bonking Ryder over the head with his club and dragging him by the hair back to his cave.

And what's wrong with using the supernatural in a human story? It's been done throughout history, dude. Nothing helps a character examine their own humanity than an encounter with supernatural or otherworldly things. You're the one always talking about "suspension of disbelief."

I really don't feel that it works in this story. Kane is trying to get Cena to succumb to his hate. To give in to the Dark Side of the Force. To understand that hate is a natural thing, and there is no reason in to hide it. Kane doesn't care if the hate is aimed at himself, at the fans, or whoever. He just cares that it is there, and that Cena starts to show it. Kane doing supernatural things here, to accomplish this goal, makes him the devil/demon. He becomes so clearly evil that resisting him can only strengthen Cena's resolve. It also changes Kane's motivation. If Kane is the devil, he is doing this for his own, purely self-interested ends. With Kane as another human being with a different point of view, Kane's motives (as we saw in his promo last week) are (in his mind, anyway) in the bests interests of everyone. Kane thinks it is perfectly fine (and maybe even more psychologically healthy) to acknowledge and act on your hate than to bottle it up inside. To Kane, Cena is not only deluding and hurting himself, but by preaching "Rise Above Hate" to all of the fans, Cena is poisoning their minds as well.

[yourcrapsweak]

I really don't feel that it works in this story. Kane is trying to get Cena to succumb to his hate. To give in to the Dark Side of the Force. To understand that hate is a natural thing, and there is no reason in to hide it. Kane doesn't care if the hate is aimed at himself, at the fans, or whoever. He just cares that it is there, and that Cena starts to show it. Kane doing supernatural things here, to accomplish this goal, makes him the devil/demon. He becomes so clearly evil that resisting him can only strengthen Cena's resolve. It also changes Kane's motivation. If Kane is the devil, he is doing this for his own, purely self-interested ends. With Kane as another human being with a different point of view, Kane's motives (as we saw in his promo last week) are (in his mind, anyway) in the bests interests of everyone. Kane thinks it is perfectly fine (and maybe even more psychologically healthy) to acknowledge and act on your hate than to bottle it up inside. To Kane, Cena is not only deluding and hurting himself, but by preaching "Rise Above Hate" to all of the fans, Cena is poisoning their minds as well.

You described it yourself, Kane is the devil in this storyline! He's supposed to be supernatural and creepy and evil! It's almost the same story of The Devil trying to tempt Jesus.

[Big Red Machine]

I really don't feel that it works in this story. Kane is trying to get Cena to succumb to his hate. To give in to the Dark Side of the Force. To understand that hate is a natural thing, and there is no reason in to hide it. Kane doesn't care if the hate is aimed at himself, at the fans, or whoever. He just cares that it is there, and that Cena starts to show it. Kane doing supernatural things here, to accomplish this goal, makes him the devil/demon. He becomes so clearly evil that resisting him can only strengthen Cena's resolve. It also changes Kane's motivation. If Kane is the devil, he is doing this for his own, purely self-interested ends. With Kane as another human being with a different point of view, Kane's motives (as we saw in his promo last week) are (in his mind, anyway) in the bests interests of everyone. Kane thinks it is perfectly fine (and maybe even more psychologically healthy) to acknowledge and act on your hate than to bottle it up inside. To Kane, Cena is not only deluding and hurting himself, but by preaching "Rise Above Hate" to all of the fans, Cena is poisoning their minds as well.

You described it yourself, Kane is the devil in this storyline! He's supposed to be supernatural and creepy and evil! It's almost the same story of The Devil trying to tempt Jesus.

Kane isn't doing this to corrupt Cena. He is doing it because he thinks that it is natural human behavior to act on your hate, and that Cena is only hurting himself and others by not doing so.

Having Kane do supernatural things in this sort of setting makes him, as you pointed out, the devil. That makes Kane just plain evil. The larger Cena story seems to be about shades of gray. Having Cena face the supernatural devil makes it black and white. If Kane is just a person, however, it is different. Kane needs to be more like... image AOTF Jimmy Jacobs, but instead of preaching about social change, Jimmy was preaching that it is natural to embrace your hatred just like any other emotion. He has a message that he thinks it is extremely important for everyone to hear, and he is telling them for (what he believes is) their own good.

[yourcrapsweak]

Kane isn't doing this to corrupt Cena. He is doing it because he thinks that it is natural human behavior to act on your hate, and that Cena is only hurting himself and others by not doing so.

Having Kane do supernatural things in this sort of setting makes him, as you pointed out, the devil. That makes Kane just plain evil. The larger Cena story seems to be about shades of gray. Having Cena face the supernatural devil makes it black and white. If Kane is just a person, however, it is different. Kane needs to be more like... image AOTF Jimmy Jacobs, but instead of preaching about social change, Jimmy was preaching that it is natural to embrace your hatred just like any other emotion. He has a message that he thinks it is extremely important for everyone to hear, and he is telling them for (what he believes is) their own good.

I actually think you're reading too far into it. I don't think the storyline is supposed to be this deep anymore. I think Kane is playing the devil in this storyline and Cena is Jesus. My evidence is Cena's constant denial. Since he keeps denying it and saying I will not turn to the dark side, there are no shades of gray. You're creating this all, I think. You want to see shades of gray because it makes a lot of sense, but I do think you're giving them too much credit. Maybe it is as simple as Kane trying to corrupt Cena because he is a devil. He cut such a convincing promo because that's what a devil does, he tempts you.

[badnewzxl]

Kane isn't doing this to corrupt Cena. He is doing it because he thinks that it is natural human behavior to act on your hate, and that Cena is only hurting himself and others by not doing so.

Having Kane do supernatural things in this sort of setting makes him, as you pointed out, the devil. That makes Kane just plain evil. The larger Cena story seems to be about shades of gray. Having Cena face the supernatural devil makes it black and white. If Kane is just a person, however, it is different. Kane needs to be more like... image AOTF Jimmy Jacobs, but instead of preaching about social change, Jimmy was preaching that it is natural to embrace your hatred just like any other emotion. He has a message that he thinks it is extremely important for everyone to hear, and he is telling them for (what he believes is) their own good.

I actually think you're reading too far into it. I don't think the storyline is supposed to be this deep anymore. I think Kane is playing the devil in this storyline and Cena is Jesus. My evidence is Cena's constant denial. Since he keeps denying it and saying I will not turn to the dark side, there are no shades of gray. You're creating this all, I think. You want to see shades of gray because it makes a lot of sense, but I do think you're giving them too much credit. Maybe it is as simple as Kane trying to corrupt Cena because he is a devil. He cut such a convincing promo because that's what a devil does, he tempts you.

Reading WAAAY too far into it....

[yourcrapsweak]

Kane isn't doing this to corrupt Cena. He is doing it because he thinks that it is natural human behavior to act on your hate, and that Cena is only hurting himself and others by not doing so.

Having Kane do supernatural things in this sort of setting makes him, as you pointed out, the devil. That makes Kane just plain evil. The larger Cena story seems to be about shades of gray. Having Cena face the supernatural devil makes it black and white. If Kane is just a person, however, it is different. Kane needs to be more like... image AOTF Jimmy Jacobs, but instead of preaching about social change, Jimmy was preaching that it is natural to embrace your hatred just like any other emotion. He has a message that he thinks it is extremely important for everyone to hear, and he is telling them for (what he believes is) their own good.

I actually think you're reading too far into it. I don't think the storyline is supposed to be this deep anymore. I think Kane is playing the devil in this storyline and Cena is Jesus. My evidence is Cena's constant denial. Since he keeps denying it and saying I will not turn to the dark side, there are no shades of gray. You're creating this all, I think. You want to see shades of gray because it makes a lot of sense, but I do think you're giving them too much credit. Maybe it is as simple as Kane trying to corrupt Cena because he is a devil. He cut such a convincing promo because that's what a devil does, he tempts you.

Reading WAAAY too far into it....

BRM is reading far into it, I'm the one who is trying to keep it simple. I just explained it weird. Let me try again.

BRM is saying it's a shade of gray and that Kane is trying to really convince Cena that he is a human being who should embrace hate just as any other human emotion. While Cena is saying he will not cave into hate and he appreciates and loves the WWE Universe. Both have solid arguments, and with this is becomes a philosophical debate.

I am saying Kane is just plain evil and he wants Cena to turn to the dark side, and he's not acting as a human. He's just playing the role of The Devil, trying to tempt Jesus (Cena) to sin. I don't think Cena will turn heel any time soon, so I think this is why this is the case. Plus, Kane coming out from under the ring and trying to "drag Ryder into the abyss" and the huge explosion of fire is evidence of my argument, because he's just being plain evil and not necessarily a human being.

[badnewzxl]

^I was agreeing with you and the first line of the statement I quoted. I was also saying BRM was reading to much into it. I should've been more clear. My bad.

[Big Red Machine]

The shades of gray are coming from this whole thing with Cena and the split crowd reaction. This short feud (it won't last past Elimination Chamber, if it even lasts past Royal Rumble) is being booked to accentuate the crowd's negative reactions to Cena as build up to his match against The Rock (in the Rock's hometown, where Cena will probably be down 75-25, rather than the usual 50-50).

What kind of world is it where half of the crowd is pulling for the devil to win?

[badnewzxl]

The shades of gray are coming from this whole thing with Cena and the split crowd reaction. This short feud (it won't last past Elimination Chamber, if it even lasts past Royal Rumble) is being booked to accentuate the crowd's negative reactions to Cena as build up to his match against The Rock (in the Rock's hometown, where Cena will probably be down 75-25, rather than the usual 50-50).

What kind of world is it where half of the crowd is pulling for the devil to win?

a world where ppl are tired of Cena's stale character.

[KILLdozer]

What kind of world is it where half of the crowd is pulling for the devil to win?

This is one of the best statements ive seen here in a while! lol,,,hahaha...but to answer:This fucked up world we live in

[yourcrapsweak]

What kind of world is it where half of the crowd is pulling for the devil to win?

They're not cheering for Kane, they're cheering against Cena. They were chanting "Cena sucks" before Kane came back, so why would they stop now?

[Big Red Machine]

What kind of world is it where half of the crowd is pulling for the devil to win?

They're not cheering for Kane, they're cheering against Cena. They were chanting "Cena sucks" before Kane came back, so why would they stop now?

And popping when Cena gets hit with a move.

But my point is that WWE knew this. They aren't going to do an angle where the goal is to have the guy in the role of the devil get cheered.

[yourcrapsweak]

What kind of world is it where half of the crowd is pulling for the devil to win?

They're not cheering for Kane, they're cheering against Cena. They were chanting "Cena sucks" before Kane came back, so why would they stop now?

And popping when Cena gets hit with a move.

But my point is that WWE knew this. They aren't going to do an angle where the goal is to have the guy in the role of the devil get cheered.

Kane isn't being cheered though. It's like a F.I.S.T. match. They're not cheering for the faces, they're just booing the heels.