cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 11:13

Also, in the 80's, a lot of matches did used to end with the same move, it's the idea of a 'finishing' move that devalues the power of moves and turns moves like the destroyer or the superkick into something that you don't think should be ending matches, or the idea that two people can't be proficient with the same move. Any move should be able to win a match after wearing out your opponent, otherwise you're doing the move wrong, thus spoketh the Church of Billy Robinson.

OOOOOH! Such an exciting paragraph to think about!


When it comes down to it, a finisher is all psychology. It's trading off the possibility of any move being the finish for a certain move that you can build stories around and you make mean more, with the idea that the sum total of the crowd reaction to the finisher (and attempts at it) will overall be more than if everyone was reacting at the same level to every move (and I think it's true that you get more out of people reacting to some moves as 8/9/10 and others as 5/6 and others as 2/3 than you out of everyone reaction to everything as 5/6).
In that sense, it absolutely does "devalue" some moves, but I think that wrestlers (and bookers controlling them), collectively, can exercise a lot more control over which/how many moves are devalued than they currently do. A sort of "generic finisher" class of moves could be created that even if you're not using it as your "trademarked finisher," it would be protected enough that every time someone used it, it felt like a potential finish. CHIKARA kind of had this going with the CHIKARA Special and Inverted CHIKARA Special.
I think ROH in particular (and possibly the indy scene in general, but I just don't remember much in the way of specifics outside of ROH) had a great atmosphere like this back in 2011-2013. Davey vs. Elgin is the match that jumps out at me for this (I don't remember Davey using the ankle lock too much as a finish before that, although he definitely had at times, and I don't remember Elgin EVER doing the Crossface before that match, but we all bought them as potential finishes every time they locked them in), but I remember Eddie and Kyle also doing similar things with different submission finishes at the time.
The keys to getting to the point where you can make any move feel like a finisher in a world where finishers are a thing and are here to stay are the storytelling and the selling (if the majority of your match is built around doing impressive flips, that avenue won't be open to you). We've only really seen this done in submission-based matches and hardcore matches, but I think it can work for non-submission-based matches as well. In any match where you're working the opponent's neck, and headdrop that looks devastating enough should work as a finish.
That sort of logic should work with a strike-based finisher, too. After a point, it becomes a wear-down thing. Hero said at one point that that's what he was trying to do with the rolling elbow gimmick. He'd have a bunch of different ways of doing the elbow strike, and after a point, any one of them would feel like a potential finisher because there was so much wear-down from the others. And with something like that, the way you really distinguish the potential finisher superkick/elbow lariat/whatever from the "regular" one is just timing and match structure.

In kayfabe, the "finisher" concept can be made to make sense as being either (as I said elsewhere) a confidence thing for the wrestler, or as essentially a marketing gimmick that the wrestler is using. "Maybe that powerbomb would have been enough to get the win, but if I pick him up and hit the move I have chosen as my 'signature' move, I can make the move seem cool and sell t-shirts." It's the same kayfabe reason wrestlers give their moves cool names.



Also, where the hell is NWK?! He'd LOVE this sort of thing!

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 11:41

I'm going to push back on this a little bit, as it's entirely possibly that Tony is giving the wrestlers a lot of latitude to do what they want within a general frame work he gives them (or even just letting them book their own stuff, like Cody seems to have been doing). We don't know if Tony is more of an "every detail" booker or if he's puts names together, tells the wrestlers how long the program is and who will go over, and any other specific instructions, and lets them figure everything else out, or something in between). It's entirely possible he's booking the matches, but doesn't mind what the wrestlers do between the bells so long as his instructions about how the finish should go are followed, which would allow for a lot more weapons spots.

the only thing we know from interviews or journalists is that he listens to everyone's ideas, but he has the final say, that was even what was said when the 'news' that he had taken power away from the EVPs came out, the answer was TK always had all the power, EVPs never had that power by themselves. I think certain people have more trust to lay out their matches than others, and it's rarely been a problem, we still get clear wins and loses most of the time. When it comes to post-match brawls and angles, I think that falls more on Khan.

What i'm arguing here is that it's complete BS that Omega is out there booking "his joshi fantasies" and that the Bucks and Cody do whatever they want and that no one talks to each other in the back.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 12:35 OOOOOH! Such an exciting paragraph to think about!


When it comes down to it, a finisher is all psychology. It's trading off the possibility of any move being the finish for a certain move that you can build stories around and you make mean more, with the idea that the sum total of the crowd reaction to the finisher (and attempts at it) will overall be more than if everyone was reacting at the same level to every move (and I think it's true that you get more out of people reacting to some moves as 8/9/10 and others as 5/6 and others as 2/3 than you out of everyone reaction to everything as 5/6).
In that sense, it absolutely does "devalue" some moves, but I think that wrestlers (and bookers controlling them), collectively, can exercise a lot more control over which/how many moves are devalued than they currently do. A sort of "generic finisher" class of moves could be created that even if you're not using it as your "trademarked finisher," it would be protected enough that every time someone used it, it felt like a potential finish. CHIKARA kind of had this going with the CHIKARA Special and Inverted CHIKARA Special.
I think ROH in particular (and possibly the indy scene in general, but I just don't remember much in the way of specifics outside of ROH) had a great atmosphere like this back in 2011-2013. Davey vs. Elgin is the match that jumps out at me for this (I don't remember Davey using the ankle lock too much as a finish before that, although he definitely had at times, and I don't remember Elgin EVER doing the Crossface before that match, but we all bought them as potential finishes every time they locked them in), but I remember Eddie and Kyle also doing similar things with different submission finishes at the time.
The keys to getting to the point where you can make any move feel like a finisher in a world where finishers are a thing and are here to stay are the storytelling and the selling (if the majority of your match is built around doing impressive flips, that avenue won't be open to you). We've only really seen this done in submission-based matches and hardcore matches, but I think it can work for non-submission-based matches as well. In any match where you're working the opponent's neck, and headdrop that looks devastating enough should work as a finish.
That sort of logic should work with a strike-based finisher, too. After a point, it becomes a wear-down thing. Hero said at one point that that's what he was trying to do with the rolling elbow gimmick. He'd have a bunch of different ways of doing the elbow strike, and after a point, any one of them would feel like a potential finisher because there was so much wear-down from the others. And with something like that, the way you really distinguish the potential finisher superkick/elbow lariat/whatever from the "regular" one is just timing and match structure.

In kayfabe, the "finisher" concept can be made to make sense as being either (as I said elsewhere) a confidence thing for the wrestler, or as essentially a marketing gimmick that the wrestler is using. "Maybe that powerbomb would have been enough to get the win, but if I pick him up and hit the move I have chosen as my 'signature' move, I can make the move seem cool and sell t-shirts." It's the same kayfabe reason wrestlers give their moves cool names.

Agree with everything here, but I think the most important thing to remember is that all of these should be analyzed under the microcosm of a single match or a specific wrestler's timeline, at least when we're talking about 'simpler' moves and not something like the Chikara Special. WALTER's chop shouldn't overvalue someone else's chop, nor it should be devalued because someone other than WALTER uses an ineffective chop.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 12:44

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 11:41

I'm going to push back on this a little bit, as it's entirely possibly that Tony is giving the wrestlers a lot of latitude to do what they want within a general frame work he gives them (or even just letting them book their own stuff, like Cody seems to have been doing). We don't know if Tony is more of an "every detail" booker or if he's puts names together, tells the wrestlers how long the program is and who will go over, and any other specific instructions, and lets them figure everything else out, or something in between). It's entirely possible he's booking the matches, but doesn't mind what the wrestlers do between the bells so long as his instructions about how the finish should go are followed, which would allow for a lot more weapons spots.

the only thing we know from interviews or journalists is that he listens to everyone's ideas, but he has the final say, that was even what was said when the 'news' that he had taken power away from the EVPs came out, the answer was TK always had all the power, EVPs never had that power by themselves. I think certain people have more trust to lay out their matches than others, and it's rarely been a problem, we still get clear wins and loses most of the time. When it comes to post-match brawls and angles, I think that falls more on Khan.

What i'm arguing here is that it's complete BS that Omega is out there booking "his joshi fantasies" and that the Bucks and Cody do whatever they want and that no one talks to each other in the back.

I'll disagree on the "clear wins and losses" because people are allowed to cheat all the time right in front of the referee. That's not a clean win and loss.

I can buy the brawls and stuff being Tony because he grew up an ECW fan (among other things) so that would be a big influence.

As for the "Tony always had all the power" thing... I don't know. That one feels like a line they came up with (and, if I remember right, what they told Keller was that Tony took full power after that show that ended in the much-maligned Dark Order beat-down of the Elite) as a cover. I believe that Tony has full power now (although he certainly seems to be at least giving in to Cody on Cody things), but that the date he took full control was MUCH later than they claim.

I think it was at some point this summer. Remember that the whole "yeah, Tony has full control" story came about as a result of someone asking Tony if one person had taken full control of the booking because there had seemed to have been a marked change very recently (mean at the time of the question). And if you look at a lot of the stuff that had happened between the time they claim Tony took control and the time the story about him having been in full control since that point came out, it bears a much closer resemblance to stuff you saw those guys involved with when they have had control over their own stuff (including during the Bullet Club Civil War).

As for the "no one talks to each other in the back" thing, my guess is that the truth of the situation is that Cody and the others don't talk much (or at least don't talk business), but that the others are all still fine with each other.

The "Omega booking Joshi fantasies" thing was, I think, a matter of perspective. I think he advocated for the people he got signed and just overestimated how much the crowd would take to them. Sure, the pandemic was an issue, but I don't think Sakura and Sakazaki would have fared any better without it, and I certainly don't think Shida would have fared any worse. Those who could adapt for the American audience worked out well and have survived, and those who were less successful didn't. No different than WWE deciding to go with TAKA Michinoku instead of Great Sasuke in 1997.
Omega owed it to the people he signed to give them the chance, and he did that. At the time and in the moment, with it clearly not working well outside of Shida, I can see how it looked like he was just ignoring the evidence in front of him, but with hindsight, I don't think he did any more than giving people their fair chance to sink or swim. Maybe it would have gone differently if not for the pandemic, but we'll never know.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 13:03

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 12:35 OOOOOH! Such an exciting paragraph to think about!


When it comes down to it, a finisher is all psychology. It's trading off the possibility of any move being the finish for a certain move that you can build stories around and you make mean more, with the idea that the sum total of the crowd reaction to the finisher (and attempts at it) will overall be more than if everyone was reacting at the same level to every move (and I think it's true that you get more out of people reacting to some moves as 8/9/10 and others as 5/6 and others as 2/3 than you out of everyone reaction to everything as 5/6).
In that sense, it absolutely does "devalue" some moves, but I think that wrestlers (and bookers controlling them), collectively, can exercise a lot more control over which/how many moves are devalued than they currently do. A sort of "generic finisher" class of moves could be created that even if you're not using it as your "trademarked finisher," it would be protected enough that every time someone used it, it felt like a potential finish. CHIKARA kind of had this going with the CHIKARA Special and Inverted CHIKARA Special.
I think ROH in particular (and possibly the indy scene in general, but I just don't remember much in the way of specifics outside of ROH) had a great atmosphere like this back in 2011-2013. Davey vs. Elgin is the match that jumps out at me for this (I don't remember Davey using the ankle lock too much as a finish before that, although he definitely had at times, and I don't remember Elgin EVER doing the Crossface before that match, but we all bought them as potential finishes every time they locked them in), but I remember Eddie and Kyle also doing similar things with different submission finishes at the time.
The keys to getting to the point where you can make any move feel like a finisher in a world where finishers are a thing and are here to stay are the storytelling and the selling (if the majority of your match is built around doing impressive flips, that avenue won't be open to you). We've only really seen this done in submission-based matches and hardcore matches, but I think it can work for non-submission-based matches as well. In any match where you're working the opponent's neck, and headdrop that looks devastating enough should work as a finish.
That sort of logic should work with a strike-based finisher, too. After a point, it becomes a wear-down thing. Hero said at one point that that's what he was trying to do with the rolling elbow gimmick. He'd have a bunch of different ways of doing the elbow strike, and after a point, any one of them would feel like a potential finisher because there was so much wear-down from the others. And with something like that, the way you really distinguish the potential finisher superkick/elbow lariat/whatever from the "regular" one is just timing and match structure.

In kayfabe, the "finisher" concept can be made to make sense as being either (as I said elsewhere) a confidence thing for the wrestler, or as essentially a marketing gimmick that the wrestler is using. "Maybe that powerbomb would have been enough to get the win, but if I pick him up and hit the move I have chosen as my 'signature' move, I can make the move seem cool and sell t-shirts." It's the same kayfabe reason wrestlers give their moves cool names.

Agree with everything here, but I think the most important thing to remember is that all of these should be analyzed under the microcosm of a single match or a specific wrestler's timeline, at least when we're talking about 'simpler' moves and not something like the Chikara Special. WALTER's chop shouldn't overvalue someone else's chop, nor it should be devalued because someone other than WALTER uses an ineffective chop.

I go back and forth on this. Yes, WALTER's chop shouldn't overvalue someone else's... but WALTER is a big f*cking dude and he always f*cking lays those chops in BIG. Guys who get reps as chop guys get that rep because the lay their chops in, even if they're smaller guys (Roddy, Eddie, Low Ki). They MAKE you sell those chops the same way that WALTER or Joe or Shiozaki do. It's a lot easier to say that a WALTER chop shouldn't overvalue someone else's chop than it is to say that a WALTER vertical suplex shouldn't overvalue someone else's vertical suplex.

When you say "simpler moves" are you talking about physical execution (the CHIKARA Special is notoriously complicated to lock on... which it needed to be for the story they wanted to tell), or are you talking "basic" "ealry-match" stuff vs. headdrops or Canadian Destroyers?

I think that doing one match where you build and build and build to the piledriver and hit it and that's the finish can definitely be undermined by a match earlier on the card where someone survives four piledrivers (especially if both matches have the guy working the neck over throughout the match).

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 14:26
I'll disagree on the "clear wins and losses" because people are allowed to cheat all the time right in front of the referee. That's not a clean win and loss.

I can buy the brawls and stuff being Tony because he grew up an ECW fan (among other things) so that would be a big influence.

As for the "Tony always had all the power" thing... I don't know. That one feels like a line they came up with (and, if I remember right, what they told Keller was that Tony took full power after that show that ended in the much-maligned Dark Order beat-down of the Elite) as a cover. I believe that Tony has full power now (although he certainly seems to be at least giving in to Cody on Cody things), but that the date he took full control was MUCH later than they claim.

I think it was at some point this summer. Remember that the whole "yeah, Tony has full control" story came about as a result of someone asking Tony if one person had taken full control of the booking because there had seemed to have been a marked change very recently (mean at the time of the question). And if you look at a lot of the stuff that had happened between the time they claim Tony took control and the time the story about him having been in full control since that point came out, it bears a much closer resemblance to stuff you saw those guys involved with when they have had control over their own stuff (including during the Bullet Club Civil War).

As for the "no one talks to each other in the back" thing, my guess is that the truth of the situation is that Cody and the others don't talk much (or at least don't talk business), but that the others are all still fine with each other.

The "Omega booking Joshi fantasies" thing was, I think, a matter of perspective. I think he advocated for the people he got signed and just overestimated how much the crowd would take to them. Sure, the pandemic was an issue, but I don't think Sakura and Sakazaki would have fared any better without it, and I certainly don't think Shida would have fared any worse. Those who could adapt for the American audience worked out well and have survived, and those who were less successful didn't. No different than WWE deciding to go with TAKA Michinoku instead of Great Sasuke in 1997.
Omega owed it to the people he signed to give them the chance, and he did that. At the time and in the moment, with it clearly not working well outside of Shida, I can see how it looked like he was just ignoring the evidence in front of him, but with hindsight, I don't think he did any more than giving people their fair chance to sink or swim. Maybe it would have gone differently if not for the pandemic, but we'll never know.

Didn't say 'clean', I said clear because you can clearly see who the one that is supposed to be over is and they're not playing around with 50/50.

Even if TK didn't have full control from the start, we're still talking about some months after the promotion started and TK himself started booking to begin with. Dude's learning on the job.
We're still past the year of him taking full control, so I don't see why the argument is even relevant anymore. Trying to complain about a promotion's booking for what they did a year ago has no legs to stand on if the approach has already changed.

As for the Omega thing, I don't think it's even a matter of perspective, you either have a personal something against Omega and Joshi, or you don't. I don't think there's much room to say that phrase. Joshis, and even male Japanese wrestlers have mostly been booked in a way that they can't even try to swim. Sakazaki, Nakajima, or Mizunami never really had enough time to get over before the pandemic started, and from there on, most Japanese wrestlers have only been brought to DARK for 3 matches, or for that one 'forbidden door' match. It's a result of these wrestlers not being able to stay for long in the US, but they're rarely given anything anyway, they had Mei Suruga for over a month and she never escaped DARK, being Sakura's henchwoman.

In addition, we also shouldn't generalize the reception of Japanese wrestlers from Sakura or Nakazawa, they're both close to 50 years old and clearly brought in to help people get over, not be over themselves. She should instead see how Shida and Riho got super over when they were given stories and time to get themselves over.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 14:41
I go back and forth on this. Yes, WALTER's chop shouldn't overvalue someone else's... but WALTER is a big f*cking dude and he always f*cking lays those chops in BIG. Guys who get reps as chop guys get that rep because the lay their chops in, even if they're smaller guys (Roddy, Eddie, Low Ki). They MAKE you sell those chops the same way that WALTER or Joe or Shiozaki do. It's a lot easier to say that a WALTER chop shouldn't overvalue someone else's chop than it is to say that a WALTER vertical suplex shouldn't overvalue someone else's vertical suplex.

When you say "simpler moves" are you talking about physical execution (the CHIKARA Special is notoriously complicated to lock on... which it needed to be for the story they wanted to tell), or are you talking "basic" "ealry-match" stuff vs. headdrops or Canadian Destroyers?

I think that doing one match where you build and build and build to the piledriver and hit it and that's the finish can definitely be undermined by a match earlier on the card where someone survives four piledrivers (especially if both matches have the guy working the neck over throughout the match).

Idk if WALTER's vertical suplex finishes matches, but if the WALTER chop doesn't do it for you, we can replace it with any other wrestler who has a generic 'finisher' like Ishii's brainbuster or any of the 700 wrestlers who use a cutter as a finisher.

By Simple Move I mean a move that hasn't exactly been singled out as a finisher only, like the Chikara Special, the One Winged Angel, a Stormbreaker, that level of complexity.

Even then, both matches have different builds and different wrestlers. The example you gave with piledrivers and necks completely changes if one match has Miro and the other has [Insert really strong neck person].

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 16:31

Even if TK didn't have full control from the start, we're still talking about some months after the promotion started and TK himself started booking to begin with. Dude's learning on the job.

This is understandable, but if you're trying to launch a major company, it probably would have been better for Tony to be the Eddie Graham/Bill Watts making the calls about overall direction and who feuds with who and who gets pushed while hiring someone with experience to be the Dusty/Ernie Ladd/Grizzly Smith/Jack Brisco/Kevin Sullivan/whoever else who actually does the week-to-week booking.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 16:31 We're still past the year of him taking full control, so I don't see why the argument is even relevant anymore. Trying to complain about a promotion's booking for what they did a year ago has no legs to stand on if the approach has already changed.

I think we're only at about eight or nine months past when he really took control. You're right that it's not really relevant anymore (unless people start making Cody-esque demands). I was really just bringing it up to say that I don't think AEW's claims about who had been booking what were completely honest.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 16:31
As for the Omega thing, I don't think it's even a matter of perspective, you either have a personal something against Omega and Joshi, or you don't. I don't think there's much room to say that phrase. Joshis, and even male Japanese wrestlers have mostly been booked in a way that they can't even try to swim. Sakazaki, Nakajima, or Mizunami never really had enough time to get over before the pandemic started, and from there on, most Japanese wrestlers have only been brought to DARK for 3 matches, or for that one 'forbidden door' match. It's a result of these wrestlers not being able to stay for long in the US, but they're rarely given anything anyway, they had Mei Suruga for over a month and she never escaped DARK, being Sakura's henchwoman.

In addition, we also shouldn't generalize the reception of Japanese wrestlers from Sakura or Nakazawa, they're both close to 50 years old and clearly brought in to help people get over, not be over themselves. She should instead see how Shida and Riho got super over when they were given stories and time to get themselves over.

"Perspective" maybe wasn't the right word. What I meant was that I could see how in that moment in time, people thought that was what Omega was doing, but with hindsight, it wasn't. Or maybe it actually was what Kenny was hoping to do, but he correctly realized it wasn't working and changed course.

I think people got enough time to see what the people who they were using on Dynamite were about to decide if they liked them or not.

I would disagree that Riho really got that over.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 16:47

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 14:41
I go back and forth on this. Yes, WALTER's chop shouldn't overvalue someone else's... but WALTER is a big f*cking dude and he always f*cking lays those chops in BIG. Guys who get reps as chop guys get that rep because the lay their chops in, even if they're smaller guys (Roddy, Eddie, Low Ki). They MAKE you sell those chops the same way that WALTER or Joe or Shiozaki do. It's a lot easier to say that a WALTER chop shouldn't overvalue someone else's chop than it is to say that a WALTER vertical suplex shouldn't overvalue someone else's vertical suplex.

When you say "simpler moves" are you talking about physical execution (the CHIKARA Special is notoriously complicated to lock on... which it needed to be for the story they wanted to tell), or are you talking "basic" "ealry-match" stuff vs. headdrops or Canadian Destroyers?

I think that doing one match where you build and build and build to the piledriver and hit it and that's the finish can definitely be undermined by a match earlier on the card where someone survives four piledrivers (especially if both matches have the guy working the neck over throughout the match).

Idk if WALTER's vertical suplex finishes matches, but if the WALTER chop doesn't do it for you, we can replace it with any other wrestler who has a generic 'finisher' like Ishii's brainbuster or any of the 700 wrestlers who use a cutter as a finisher.

I think a chop is different because the need for the sound makes the illusion of contact hard to create if you don't have it. If a big guy gives a really soft chop and someone sells it big, I don't think people would buy it.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 16:47 By Simple Move I mean a move that hasn't exactly been singled out as a finisher only, like the Chikara Special, the One Winged Angel, a Stormbreaker, that level of complexity.

In that case, yes, I agree, but I do think that a move can't help but lose some luster when people (even if it's not the wrestler who protects it) start using it as a regular move just to get nearfalls.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 11th, '22, 16:47 Even then, both matches have different builds and different wrestlers. The example you gave with piledrivers and necks completely changes if one match has Miro and the other has [Insert really strong neck person].

You're right, but (unfortunately) most of the time this happens, that's not the case.