Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 27th, '20, 19:17

Because in a division with so few established personalities, having three different people for whom the only thing we see of a personality is that they cosplay- and especially having two in the same match- makes the division feel devoid of diverse personality types.

And when you throw in Statlander, a woman randomly calling herself "The Bunny", and the woman who can't go five seconds without telling us that she's a dentist, it makes the division as a whole look bad because Riho, Nyla, and Kong are the only people I can think of who don't inspire laughter.

except that's not their personalities, if you think that's what they are, then you're not paying attention and can't see past the attire and into their actual personalities and characters. If you think that Swole of all people is a cosplayer because she had a Storm inspired ring attire, then you're COMPLETELY ignoring who Swole is.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 27th, '20, 19:40

Because Taker, Mankind, and even The Fiend always took themselves seriously. They weren't out there to be goofs like Danhausen or Sakura. There is a massive difference between being a gimmick (Kane) and being a goof (Santino).

so it's just "i want serious wrestling". It's not really a cosplay problem, it's your personal bias against comedy/funny/wacky stuff.

to quote NWK
"All it boils down to is the inability to describe why they don't like the wrestling so they'll parrot Jim Cornette."

i don't know why you keep watching shows you don't want to like.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 09:31

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 27th, '20, 19:12

1. No matter who it was or whether it was cosplay attire or not, it looked like it was cosplay attire in a match with two other cosplayers.

2. Wrestling is absolutely not 90% cosplaying. Cosplaying is dressing up as an already-extant idea. Wrestling is acting; not cosplaying.

1. by that sense then everyone is cosplaying! The fucking Undertaker and Kane look like cosplays! "3 cosplayers in a match!" is nitpicking.

2. 90% of wrestlers are wearing costumes. wrestling cosplays itself all the time

By your point in number 2, Conor McGregor is a cosplayer. Or Tyson Fury.

Which would be a ridiculous statement.

XIV wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 10:23

By your point in number 2, Conor McGregor is a cosplayer. Or Tyson Fury.

Which would be a ridiculous statement.

what is McGregor dressed up as? Tyson Fury wearing weird ass shit is still Tyson Fury, Mark Callaway pretending to be a dead cowboy with superpowers, that's cosplay, it's almost LARPing. Tom Lawlor does cosplay, Fury and McGregor are flamboyant. Kane is not flamboyant, he's pretending to be a burn victim psycho with magic powers.

I don't understand how 'inspired attires' count as cosplaying to you guys. ya'll just trying to find excuses to shit on a show that literally most of the industry and fans said was awesome.

Not finding excuses to shit on a show.

This presentation of wrestling isn’t for everyone.
It’s part of the reason why the industry is not as popular as it once was.

And it’s definitely not for me and many others who value good wrestling, a serious presentation and a good story.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 09:37

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 27th, '20, 19:17

Because in a division with so few established personalities, having three different people for whom the only thing we see of a personality is that they cosplay- and especially having two in the same match- makes the division feel devoid of diverse personality types.

And when you throw in Statlander, a woman randomly calling herself "The Bunny", and the woman who can't go five seconds without telling us that she's a dentist, it makes the division as a whole look bad because Riho, Nyla, and Kong are the only people I can think of who don't inspire laughter.

except that's not their personalities, if you think that's what they are, then you're not paying attention and can't see past the attire and into their actual personalities and characters. If you think that Swole of all people is a cosplayer because she had a Storm inspired ring attire, then you're COMPLETELY ignoring who Swole is.

Swole didn't even occur to me as cosplaying. Why? Because she comes across as someone who has an actual personality. You say that the cosplaying isn't their personalities, but then what are their personalities? The rest of them are just "I'm a wrestler" wrestlers. All we know about most of them are the facts of where they're from and what their nickname is, if they even have one. They're just generic wrestlers who we have been given no reason to care about; no reason to invest in their personal journeys.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 09:40

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 27th, '20, 19:40

Because Taker, Mankind, and even The Fiend always took themselves seriously. They weren't out there to be goofs like Danhausen or Sakura. There is a massive difference between being a gimmick (Kane) and being a goof (Santino).

so it's just "i want serious wrestling". It's not really a cosplay problem, it's your personal bias against comedy/funny/wacky stuff.

to quote NWK
"All it boils down to is the inability to describe why they don't like the wrestling so they'll parrot Jim Cornette."

i don't know why you keep watching shows you don't want to like.

I do want to like it. I want to like all wrestling. But if it's not good, I'm going to call it out.

I didn't say my problem was the cosplaying. I said my problem was too many cosplayers in one place, and the fact their affinity for cosplaying is pretty much the only thing we know about most of them. They haven't done anything to give us a reason to care about 90% of the female roster, including the four women in this match. I think I've explained this pretty thoroughly. You can't just throw people out on TV and expect fans to give a sh*t about them.

I'm fine with comedy in my wrestling. I just don't want it done in a way that exposes the fact that the business is a work, because I want to suspend my disbelief, and reminding me that it's a work makes that impossible.

And, for the record, I have tried to play along with Statlander's alien crap in the past but found it impossible. Why? Because if you want me to play along, you have to go the whole way. If she is an alien who communicates by booping, why are you sending someone out to interview her in a language she doesn't speak?
Her alien gimmick adds nothing but goofy shtick. I saw the same woman wrestle in ROH. She wrestled just as well and she was much more palatable because she didn't have a dumb gimmick for no reason.

cero2k wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 10:49

XIV wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 10:23

By your point in number 2, Conor McGregor is a cosplayer. Or Tyson Fury.

Which would be a ridiculous statement.

what is McGregor dressed up as? Tyson Fury wearing weird ass shit is still Tyson Fury, Mark Callaway pretending to be a dead cowboy with superpowers, that's cosplay, it's almost LARPing. Tom Lawlor does cosplay, Fury and McGregor are flamboyant. Kane is not flamboyant, he's pretending to be a burn victim psycho with magic powers.

Kane pretending to be a burn victim with magical powers is acting, not cosplaying. His gear isn't referencing a burn victim with magical powers. He is one.
Inspired attires are fine, so long as you have given us a personality underneath them. When someone brings up Connor McGregor, the inspired attires are about the fiftieth thing they think of. With Shanna, the only thing we know about her are that she is "Portugal's perfect athlete" and also apparently likes DBZ. ACH is an example of a guy who referenced anime in a lot more, but that was just one facet of his character. He was also either an up-and-coming, witty babyface or a cocky douchebag heel. Lawlor, too, has a personality underneath. He's a lot more than just the inspired attires.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 27th, '20, 19:34Marko doesn't actually bother me. He's not bodyslamming Big Show. I am fine with him using traditional little-man offense that relies on speed, leverage, and hitting hard.

I have the same stance with him as I do with Cheeseburger : he's not believable in any way, no one should ever sell for him, and the only time he should get an advantage over anyone is with copious cheating. Or make him an obnoxious manager, whichever.

I could go on about how this pairing with Jungle Boy and Luchasaurus completely killed the basic premise of the original team because now this idiot with no upside is the little man of the group instead of the guy who could become a star.

The posing can work with certain characters (Ilja Dragunov, Cara Noir). My problem with Pentagon Jr. is that when he does it during a match, it feels like he's doing it just to get a pop.

Exactly. Instead of doing a flip, he'll do his (overly long) glove throwing and/or yell cero miedo in his opponent's face even though it makes no sense in the match. Like, what's stopping his opponent to punch him in the gut during the glove stuff? Oh right, it's just another pre-planned spot in this fake match.

Hogan didn't do the ear cupping or yell YOU!!! when his opponent was running towards him to boot him in the face. It went with the flow of the match is what I'm trying to say.

Aubrey's overacting doesn't bother me too much, but it has me worried that if fans keep cheering her and it goes to her head, she'll turn into an American Red Shoes.

The sad part is that she's actually good, but they REALLY are pushing her hard lately, even putting her with Schiavone on their new podcast. Like you said, they're trying so hard to score diversity/PC/woke/whatever we call them today points, and then they undo those by having babes around for no reason or the openly gay guy they're hiding on the B-show break up a brawl involving women or somehow "pushing" a female referee.

As I said in the other post, the problem is not the concept but that there are too many doing it in the same place at the same time.

Eh, most women having next to no character development is a much bigger problem than wearing [insert video game/anime/whatever here]-inspired gear.

Thelone wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 16:16

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 27th, '20, 19:34posing can work with certain characters (Ilja Dragunov, Cara Noir). My problem with Pentagon Jr. is that when he does it during a match, it feels like he's doing it just to get a pop.

Exactly. Instead of doing a flip, he'll do his (overly long) glove throwing and/or yell cero miedo in his opponent's face even though it makes no sense in the match. Like, what's stopping his opponent to punch him in the gut during the glove stuff? Oh right, it's just another pre-planned spot in this fake match.

Hogan didn't do the ear cupping or yell YOU!!! when his opponent was running towards him to boot him in the face. It went with the flow of the match is what I'm trying to say.

That you for saying that better than I could. Hogan is a pretty perfect example of how to do this sort of thing right.

XIV wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 11:12 Not finding excuses to shit on a show.

This presentation of wrestling isn’t for everyone.
It’s part of the reason why the industry is not as popular as it once was.

And it’s definitely not for me and many others who value good wrestling, a serious presentation and a good story.

implying that this isn't good wrestling or a good story? AEW is being praised by fans and analysts and wrestlers, left to right for the quality of their wrestling, their presentation, and their story.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 13:09
Swole didn't even occur to me as cosplaying. Why? Because she comes across as someone who has an actual personality. You say that the cosplaying isn't their personalities, but then what are their personalities? The rest of them are just "I'm a wrestler" wrestlers. All we know about most of them are the facts of where they're from and what their nickname is, if they even have one. They're just generic wrestlers who we have been given no reason to care about; no reason to invest in their personal journeys.

then you're not paying enough attention to their promos and commentary. We already know Shana's story and her problems with Nyla. We know of Swole. Yuka is technically an invitee at this point still, it's no different from being excited for Misawa or Kobashi when they went to ROH. Everyone has a story, short or complex, but no one is just there, and if it's not enough, then give it time. Look at the Dark Order and Page, it took time, but now they have something.

And it's not just stories that people get behind off, there are many reasons to like someone.

if Swole is not the third cosplayer, then who are you guys talking about?

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 10:00

if Swole is not the third cosplayer, then who are you guys talking about?

The one who Excalibur flat out said was wearing Anime-inspired gear. "Magic Girl" or whatever.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 13:19 I do want to like it. I want to like all wrestling. But if it's not good, I'm going to call it out.

I didn't say my problem was the cosplaying. I said my problem was too many cosplayers in one place, and the fact their affinity for cosplaying is pretty much the only thing we know about most of them. They haven't done anything to give us a reason to care about 90% of the female roster, including the four women in this match. I think I've explained this pretty thoroughly. You can't just throw people out on TV and expect fans to give a sh*t about them.

I'm fine with comedy in my wrestling. I just don't want it done in a way that exposes the fact that the business is a work, because I want to suspend my disbelief, and reminding me that it's a work makes that impossible.

And, for the record, I have tried to play along with Statlander's alien crap in the past but found it impossible. Why? Because if you want me to play along, you have to go the whole way. If she is an alien who communicates by booping, why are you sending someone out to interview her in a language she doesn't speak?
Her alien gimmick adds nothing but goofy shtick. I saw the same woman wrestle in ROH. She wrestled just as well and she was much more palatable because she didn't have a dumb gimmick for no reason.

I give a shit about them and we're watching the same show. I want to see Shana get her revenge on Nyla and finally become a top name after so many years wrestling; and I want to see Swole overcome her past and win the big one. The fact that Shana likes DBZ and Swole likes Storm means nothing, it has nothing to do with their characters and their stories.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 10:11
The one who Excalibur flat out said was wearing Anime-inspired gear. "Magic Girl" or whatever.

Magic Girl is not an anime, it's a genre of anime, it's Yuka's gimmick to be a magic girl.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 09:55

XIV wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 11:12 Not finding excuses to shit on a show.

This presentation of wrestling isn’t for everyone.
It’s part of the reason why the industry is not as popular as it once was.

And it’s definitely not for me and many others who value good wrestling, a serious presentation and a good story.

implying that this isn't good wrestling or a good story? AEW is being praised by fans and analysts and wrestlers, left to right for the quality of their wrestling, their presentation, and their story.

I can’t even get into this right now. I haven’t the time or strength.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 09:55

XIV wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 11:12 Not finding excuses to shit on a show.

This presentation of wrestling isn’t for everyone.
It’s part of the reason why the industry is not as popular as it once was.

And it’s definitely not for me and many others who value good wrestling, a serious presentation and a good story.

implying that this isn't good wrestling or a good story? AEW is being praised by fans and analysts and wrestlers, left to right for the quality of their wrestling, their presentation, and their story.

And other fans have bee relatively negative towards AEW, or thought it was somewhere in the realm of okay to good. And I'm not talking about Jim Cornette. I'm talking about people like Jason Powell, Todd Martin, and even Wade Keller at times. and not so much for their wrestler as for their presentation and flawed storytelling.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 10:37

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 10:11
The one who Excalibur flat out said was wearing Anime-inspired gear. "Magic Girl" or whatever.

Magic Girl is not an anime, it's a genre of anime, it's Yuka's gimmick to be a magic girl.

Which means... what, exactly? The fact that the rest of us didn't know that is evidence that they're not doing a good job of explaining these things.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 10:35

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 13:19 I do want to like it. I want to like all wrestling. But if it's not good, I'm going to call it out.

I didn't say my problem was the cosplaying. I said my problem was too many cosplayers in one place, and the fact their affinity for cosplaying is pretty much the only thing we know about most of them. They haven't done anything to give us a reason to care about 90% of the female roster, including the four women in this match. I think I've explained this pretty thoroughly. You can't just throw people out on TV and expect fans to give a sh*t about them.

I'm fine with comedy in my wrestling. I just don't want it done in a way that exposes the fact that the business is a work, because I want to suspend my disbelief, and reminding me that it's a work makes that impossible.

And, for the record, I have tried to play along with Statlander's alien crap in the past but found it impossible. Why? Because if you want me to play along, you have to go the whole way. If she is an alien who communicates by booping, why are you sending someone out to interview her in a language she doesn't speak?
Her alien gimmick adds nothing but goofy shtick. I saw the same woman wrestle in ROH. She wrestled just as well and she was much more palatable because she didn't have a dumb gimmick for no reason.

I give a shit about them and we're watching the same show. I want to see Shana get her revenge on Nyla and finally become a top name after so many years wrestling; and I want to see Swole overcome her past and win the big one. The fact that Shana likes DBZ and Swole likes Storm means nothing, it has nothing to do with their characters and their stories.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that Shanna has some revenge to get on Nyla, or what past Big Swole has to overcome. Anyone else know what he's talking about?

And if you're going to call "finally become a top name after so many years wrestling" a character then how are you not singing the praises of ROH and EVOLVE, where that seems like it's 60% of the characters. Where were you during Kofi-mania? That's what that whole story was.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 2nd, '20, 10:00

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Feb 28th, '20, 13:09
Swole didn't even occur to me as cosplaying. Why? Because she comes across as someone who has an actual personality. You say that the cosplaying isn't their personalities, but then what are their personalities? The rest of them are just "I'm a wrestler" wrestlers. All we know about most of them are the facts of where they're from and what their nickname is, if they even have one. They're just generic wrestlers who we have been given no reason to care about; no reason to invest in their personal journeys.

then you're not paying enough attention to their promos and commentary. We already know Shana's story and her problems with Nyla. We know of Swole. Yuka is technically an invitee at this point still, it's no different from being excited for Misawa or Kobashi when they went to ROH. Everyone has a story, short or complex, but no one is just there, and if it's not enough, then give it time. Look at the Dark Order and Page, it took time, but now they have something.

And it's not just stories that people get behind off, there are many reasons to like someone.

if Swole is not the third cosplayer, then who are you guys talking about?

1. What promos? When have any of these women ever cut a promo? And don't tell me it happened on BTE or Dark or Road To... or YouTube or social media, because you can't tell a story without putting it on the main show and expect people to know it's happening, and especially in a promotion where one of the EVPs flat-out told all of us that all we had to watch in order to understand the storylines was Dynamite.

2. Having the announcers tell us this during matches (if they even have, which I don't ever remember hearing) is the worst way to get info like this across to the fanbase because it's happening when our attention on the match.

3. Yuka Sakazaki isn't on the roster? Did anyone else know this? She's wrestled just as many matches as Penelope Ford and one fewer than Awesome Kong, who are both on the roster. She seems to wrestle on Dynamite/PPV than Shawn Spears does, and he's on the roster. Never once have the announcers done anything to indicate that Yuka's status was any different than that of Riho or Britt Baker, which leads me to...

4. Have you actually seen Kobashi and Misawa's ROH appearances? Or any of the stuff leading up to them? Because the announcers made it absolutely impossible for you to watch those shows without understanding that Misawa and Kobashi were the absolute most special of special attractions possible. They let you know that you if you in any way considered yourself an ROH fan, you HAD to buy tickets to those weekends or buy those DVDs. Misawa only wrestled NOAH guys, but when Kobashi came in they made such a point of putting him against the ABSOLUTE BEST that ROH had to offer, to the point where the storyline was that Joe and the Rotteweillers had called a one-night truce and Homicide and Ki were willing to be on opposite teams just so Homicide could have the honor of being in the same match with Kobashi as his partner. Do I like the fact that they did that? No. But you can't argue that doing it helps make it clear just how special Kobashi was. AEW has done nothing of the sort for Yuka Sakazaki, or ANYONE on the roster.

5. Yes, everyone has a story, but just leaving the story at "I want to be the best so I am in matches and trying to win them" without doing video packages or letting them cut promos is EXACTLY the sort of thing that people have been rightfully burying ROH for over the past few years. And yet when AEW does it, everyone loves it all of a sudden.

6. I've given it five months now (not counting the four or five shows leading into the first TV).
- Page's story hasn't actually moved forward in a while. It's just been treading water.
- Dark Order's story has been okay, but that's ignoring the fact that they have completely abandoned their first two attempts at Dark Order stories (first with Best Friends, then with The Elite).
- Shawn Spears? Has gone nowhere in months
- Private Party? Same thing, and they're barely on TV
- Joey Janela vs. Kip Sabian... where'd that feud go?
- Nightmare Collective? Went nowhere and was dropped, with the official reason apparently being that they were too dumb to realize that Kong had to leave to shoot GLOW.
- Lucha Bros? Not doing much. Mostly used as random heels
- Jurassic Express? Infrequently on TV, to the point where they have pretty much squandered whatever momentum Jungle Boy was supposed to get out of the Jericho program. Oh. And Jurassic Express is yet another Dark Order storyline that seems to have been completely abandoned.
- Bea Priestley? Is she even with the company anymore? I don't know because I haven't seen her in months.
- Hikarui? No real storyline. Ditto with 80% of the women.
-Yuka Sakazaki? Didn't they do some angle with Britt Baker taking out her teeth last month? There hasn't been any follow-up to that, and here is Yuka just wrestling again.
- Michael Nakazawa? So irrelevant that they ran an angle where Pac beat him up to get at Kenny... then did the same exact angle again a few weeks later... and then it was still irrelevant and Pac had to have Nyla do the same thing to Riho to get Kenny's attention.
- Stronghearts? Barely on TV. We've now gone two weeks without any sort of follow-up to the tease of CIMA joining the Dark Order even though Dark Order have been on TV both weeks.
- Jimmy Havoc? Haven't seen him in forever
- Jack Evans & Angelico? They still have their losing streak gimmick going, so I guess that's a story.

I've given them time. And in most cases, they haven't done anything with it.

Look... they do a good job with most of the people they choose to focus on (LAX not so much, and arguably Kenny and Pac), but they seem to either want to focus on too many people, or don't know how to rotate people in and out in an effective way.