Then contribute some thoughts.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 23rd, '18, 19:22 Miz vs. Rey. Good match. Rey won clean.

That's surprising... everyone seems so set on "Miz being groomed for the title". Was also surprisedbutnotreally that DB/AJ went on so early...

What was the main event? Charlotte/Becky or Hardy/Orton?

Bob-O wrote: ↑Oct 23rd, '18, 21:14

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 23rd, '18, 19:22 Miz vs. Rey. Good match. Rey won clean.

That's surprising... everyone seems so set on "Miz being groomed for the title".

Ah, Bob-O. You've made the classic mistake of assuming that WWE works like a rational, intelligent professional wrestling company. Don't feel bad. It happens to all of us occasionally. I assume that WWE's mindset is that they're about to give Miz big win in the WWE World Cup so they can beat him like a drum a beforehand. Their mindset isn't actually that out of whack here, except for the fact that they're not going to put Miz over clean, so the tournament win really doesn't do much to rebuild him.

Bob-O wrote: ↑Oct 23rd, '18, 21:14 Was also surprisedbutnotreally that DB/AJ went on so early...

AJ & Bryan vs. Usos going on early and going so short probably had a lot more to do Jimmy Usos also having a Mixed-Match Challenge match later than with them wanting to get that silly backstage segment they did later (Bryan's 2 Sweet got a loud "I can't believe went there!" gasp from the crowd, though). I'm just dumbfounded that they chose to do the big Roman recap right before that, and with The Usos being in the ring and having nothing to do but watch it. It probably doesn't put them in a very wrestling focused mood. The finish to AJ vs. Bryan was last week's finish but going the other way, with Dasha later speculating that Dragon hit AJ on purpose. But yes, Jey Uso just pinned the WWE World Heavyweight Champion and will presumably be getting a title shot soon.

Bob-O wrote: ↑Oct 23rd, '18, 21:14 What was the main event? Charlotte/Becky or Hardy/Orton?

Hardy vs. Orton was the real TV main event (I just back home and have started typing up everything I didn't report from the show). Becky vs. Charlotte must have been a dark match. I left before Mixed-Match Challenge started, and that airs right after SD, so I figure Charlotte vs. Becky was after that.

Good show though? Did you have fun?

More thoughts/notes:

During a commercial they played a segment from Dropping The Mic of a rap battle of The Bellas, Alicia Fox, and Carmella vs. a few of the non-important women from GLOW. In fairness, the lyrics are apparently written for them, but The Bellas’ delivery was predictably embarrassing, as were the lyrics pretty much everyone was given. Also, the big final line included one of the GLOW women saying wrestling was fake. Basically, WWE should never have aired this because it not only made them look bad, but it was just plain cringe-worthy TV that would never have aired if not for WWE’s obsessions with being shown near celebrities to reassure us all that we’re totally not weird for watching WWE.
They also had a video package that was about four straight minutes (or at least it felt like it) of WWE interactions with sports stars and/or sports stars talking about/doing WWE-related things.


This show was a MUCH more boring experience than my previous Smackdown experience because there really weren’t many (if any) matches that ran through commercials, so instead of watching wrestling during the commercials, we just spend five minutes sitting around being shown propaganda. And propaganda is really what it felt like sometimes, because so many of WWE’s video packages are either “look at how great we are,” “look at how popular we are” or plugs for the WWEShop.com or the WWE Network or the upcoming PPV (in this case Evolution, and the Divas’/Women’s R/Evolution is basically propaganda in and of itself). I think it would do the shows a lot of good to instead maybe just throw videos of some fun, famous, or much-beloved segment from the company’s past up on the TitanTron (to remind us all what we can watch on demand if order the Network, if that makes them feel better) than to constantly try to shove their PR and overproduced, branding-obsessed hype packages down our throats.

Shane’s appearance was not only frustrating, but also baffling. We’ve all been sitting through weeks of build to both Evolution and Crown Jewel at this point, and those of us in the building tonight got even more of it than usual because that’s what they were showing us during commercials instead of having wrestling matches going on. So to have Shane come out and basically tell us all a bunch of sh*t we all already knew- that Evolution is this Sunday and will be the first ever all-women WWE PPV, and that Crown Jewel will feature the WWE World Cup To Determine The Best In The Word, and running down the competitors while simultaneously eating into time that should have gone to the main event that we all popped so huge when they announced was an utterly infuriating experience.

They had advertised (and even did entrances for) Mandy & Sonya vs. Asuka & Naomi… but then, for no conceivable reason, The IIconics came out to get cheap heat, then Carmella came out to get a cheap pop, then Lana came out for no reason… and then, also for no reason, Zelina Vega came out and threw Lana into the ring, and then they all got into the ring and started fighting and stopped once Asuka kicked Vega in the head to “win” the segment, with the advertised match never occurring, and no one seeming to care. It was pathetically forced and stupid, and done to “build up” a match that really doesn’t need any build because it’s just a battle royale for a title shot.

Someone at PWTorch theorized that Shane was being sent out there to talk about Crown Jewel in order to gauge the crowd's reaction (which was mostly silence, but listen closely and if you can hear me shouting "HEY SHANE! WHAT COUNTRY IS THAT SHOW IN?").

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 23rd, '18, 23:10
During a commercial they played a segment from Dropping The Mic of a rap battle of The Bellas, Alicia Fox, and Carmella vs. a few of the non-important women from GLOW. In fairness, the lyrics are apparently written for them, but The Bellas’ delivery was predictably embarrassing, as were the lyrics pretty much everyone was given. Also, the big final line included one of the GLOW women saying wrestling was fake. Basically, WWE should never have aired this because it not only made them look bad, but it was just plain cringe-worthy TV that would never have aired if not for WWE’s obsessions with being shown near celebrities to reassure us all that we’re totally not weird for watching WWE.
They also had a video package that was about four straight minutes (or at least it felt like it) of WWE interactions with sports stars and/or sports stars talking about/doing WWE-related things.

WWE is in their millennial attention whore phase (for the last 20 yrs), so even if it makes them look bad, they just like to say that they were mentioned or seen with such and such that are b-level celebrities and random athletes.

So, how were the crowds for 205Live the the MMC? do people really just leave?

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 23rd, '18, 22:12

Bob-O wrote: ↑Oct 23rd, '18, 21:14

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 23rd, '18, 19:22 Miz vs. Rey. Good match. Rey won clean.

That's surprising... everyone seems so set on "Miz being groomed for the title".

Ah, Bob-O. You've made the classic mistake of assuming that WWE works like a rational, intelligent professional wrestling company. Don't feel bad. It happens to all of us occasionally..

I would actually be less comfortable with Rey losing a week into his new run. You've got plenty of time to put heels over using him,

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 08:57
So, how were the crowds for 205Live the the MMC? do people really just leave?

For 205 Live people were still filing in when the opener started and were kind of into it. The Ali/Itami match had everyone's attention, though. Even when it seemed quiet, it was that kind of quiet, wide-eyed staring, wondering what sort of new crazy thing these guys were going to try next.
The "WE WANT TABLES!" chant basically the moment they went outside pissed me off, though. Let them work their f*cking match. How did the tables themselves become the thing that gets this big superstar reaction?

NWK2000 wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 10:25

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 23rd, '18, 22:12

Bob-O wrote: ↑Oct 23rd, '18, 21:14
That's surprising... everyone seems so set on "Miz being groomed for the title".

Ah, Bob-O. You've made the classic mistake of assuming that WWE works like a rational, intelligent professional wrestling company. Don't feel bad. It happens to all of us occasionally..

I would actually be less comfortable with Rey losing a week into his new run. You've got plenty of time to put heels over using him,

This is also a pretty compelling reason for Rey not to lose.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 13:14

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 08:57
So, how were the crowds for 205Live the the MMC? do people really just leave?

For 205 Live people were still filing in when the opener started and were kind of into it. The Ali/Itami match had everyone's attention, though. Even when it seemed quiet, it was that kind of quiet, wide-eyed staring, wondering what sort of new crazy thing these guys were going to try next.
The "WE WANT TABLES!" chant basically the moment they went outside pissed me off, though. Let them work their f*cking match. How did the tables themselves become the thing that gets this big superstar reaction?

blame the dudleyz

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 13:54

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 13:14

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 08:57
So, how were the crowds for 205Live the the MMC? do people really just leave?

For 205 Live people were still filing in when the opener started and were kind of into it. The Ali/Itami match had everyone's attention, though. Even when it seemed quiet, it was that kind of quiet, wide-eyed staring, wondering what sort of new crazy thing these guys were going to try next.
The "WE WANT TABLES!" chant basically the moment they went outside pissed me off, though. Let them work their f*cking match. How did the tables themselves become the thing that gets this big superstar reaction?

blame the dudleyz

Yeah, but you'd think it would have stopped. The Dudleys haven't been a thing for a while, and people chanting for tables in a regular match (which this wasn't, but people do it all the time) is just moronic. It just seems odd to me that tables have become the big star of all no DQs match. It's the sort of thing that feels like fans chanting just to chant, and it really annoys me because the first big spot in this match was so ingenious to me as a creative way to get over the Falls Count Anywhere stipulation that it indicated to me that these guys had a pretty creative match planned out (or at least one that made really good use of the specific stipulation rather than the no DQs part), and here are these asshole fans immediately chanting for tables just for the sake of chanting something instead of letting the wrestlers do the match they have planned out. If you're going to chant "WE WANT TABLES!" then do it in the middle of the match at point where the babyface has a solid advantage and has a real chance of being able to go set one up and then put the heel through the table; don't start chanting it two minutes into a match in a way that makes it feel like "WE WANT TO SEE A TABLE BUMP! DO SOMETHING DANGEROUS FOR OUR AMUSEMENT! NOW!"

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 14:45 don't start chanting it two minutes into a match in a way that makes it feel like "WE WANT TO SEE A TABLE BUMP! DO SOMETHING DANGEROUS FOR OUR AMUSEMENT! NOW!"

that's exactly it, hate to break it to you, but you DID go to a WWE show. That's like going to the Gathering of the Juggalos and expecting fans to threat the show like the opera

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 16:29

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 14:45 don't start chanting it two minutes into a match in a way that makes it feel like "WE WANT TO SEE A TABLE BUMP! DO SOMETHING DANGEROUS FOR OUR AMUSEMENT! NOW!"

that's exactly it, hate to break it to you, but you DID go to a WWE show. That's like going to the Gathering of the Juggalos and expecting fans to threat the show like the opera

It's not just WWE. It's ROH, LU, and I'm certain it's happening at a lot of the other indies I purposely don't watch (and probably TNA, too). And fans in other places do other, similar things, if not exactly that. It feels like people come to shows to be a crowd that chants things rather than to get invested in the actual story (and spotfest promotions encourage this by not even giving you a story to follow along with most of the time... and at this point I'm including not just PWG but ROH and LU as well in that label. Anyone who hotshots gimmick matches for no reason or just books guys to have spotfests instead of trying to tell stories). They don't respond to the wrestling so much as they seem to think they are part of the match and have their own "spots" they'e supposed to hit and have their own sh*t they need to get in.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 21:41
It's not just WWE. It's ROH, LU, and I'm certain it's happening at a lot of the other indies I purposely don't watch (and probably TNA, too). And fans in other places do other, similar things, if not exactly that. It feels like people come to shows to be a crowd that chants things rather than to get invested in the actual story (and spotfest promotions encourage this by not even giving you a story to follow along with most of the time... and at this point I'm including not just PWG but ROH and LU as well in that label. Anyone who hotshots gimmick matches for no reason or just books guys to have spotfests instead of trying to tell stories). They don't respond to the wrestling so much as they seem to think they are part of the match and have their own "spots" they'e supposed to hit and have their own sh*t they need to get in.

well then, in that case i'm just gonna say it. Entitled American fans, everyone wants to be famous in this country
But i mean, not everything has to be stories. WWE stories suck, i don't blame anyone who just wants to watch wrestling or the 'superstars'. LU tapes all the season out of order, what story are you gonna get behind live? You want to see people who actually pay attention to the story told inside the ring? that's PWG and LU, because that's all they have to work with. There's something for every type of fan, some people don't care about the story outside the ring, some people only care about the story outside the ring, and some people don't care about either and just want to see mat wrestling.

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 23:12

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 21:41
It's not just WWE. It's ROH, LU, and I'm certain it's happening at a lot of the other indies I purposely don't watch (and probably TNA, too). And fans in other places do other, similar things, if not exactly that. It feels like people come to shows to be a crowd that chants things rather than to get invested in the actual story (and spotfest promotions encourage this by not even giving you a story to follow along with most of the time... and at this point I'm including not just PWG but ROH and LU as well in that label. Anyone who hotshots gimmick matches for no reason or just books guys to have spotfests instead of trying to tell stories). They don't respond to the wrestling so much as they seem to think they are part of the match and have their own "spots" they'e supposed to hit and have their own sh*t they need to get in.

well then, in that case i'm just gonna say it. Entitled American fans, everyone wants to be famous in this country

I don't think it's just Americans (or even Americans/Canadians). I've felt this way with OTT and some UK promotions sometimes. I don't think it's an issue of fame so much as the current zeitgeist is so interested in kitsch, and people like to "be a part of something." I also think a lot of it is people trying to imitate other crowds they've seen get praise, whether it's WWE putting over the Mania weekend crowd that one year (and Mania weekend crowds have been a big catalyst for this), or indy crowds trying to be the PWG crowd that Dave puts over or the CHIKARA crowds that get put over in that part of the internet and trying to be funny/clever/whatever. I don't think they're doing it for the personal fame of being seen on TV/going viral. I think they're doing it because they think that's what a wrestling crowd is supposed to do.

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 23:12 But i mean, not everything has to be stories. WWE stories suck, i don't blame anyone who just wants to watch wrestling or the 'superstars'. LU tapes all the season out of order, what story are you gonna get behind live? You want to see people who actually pay attention to the story told inside the ring? that's PWG and LU, because that's all they have to work with. There's something for every type of fan, some people don't care about the story outside the ring, some people only care about the story outside the ring, and some people don't care about either and just want to see mat wrestling.

I want to see not the same f*cking FLIPZ & HEADDROPZ & MOVEZZZZZZZZZZ match or GRRRRRRR! FIGHTING SPIRIT! Shibata wanna-be match every time. PWG gives us something different than that in maybe two out of six or seven matches on the card. (And before you ask, the thing that makes "work the leg" feel different every time is that having a bump leg will affect Will Ospreay differently than it affects Zack Sabre Jr. differently than it affects Pete Dunne differently than it affects WALTER differently than it affects Kane differently than it affects Okada.)
It's not about the matches not having a story so much as the story being thin and thus most of them feel the same. By the fifth match on the card I've already seen a million dives, flips superkicks, running head kicks, headdrops, etc. What's the difference Sammy Guevara and Pentagon Jr. dropping each other on their heads fifteen times in the opener and Fenix and Joey Janela dropping each other on their heads fifteen times in the fourth match? It's like watching "the best of Tomohiro Ishii. All the matches are the exact same thing, so after the third match, It's going to lose it's effect. But if you watch "the best of Kazuchika Okada" the matches are all different. Sure, he's trying to hit the Rainmaker in every match, but sometimes he has to overcome a guy who is too fast and is able to duck it a lot, sometimes he has to overcome a guy who is so big he might not even be able to knock him down with it, sometimes he has to overcome someone who is able to lock him in holds and dominate him and stop him from ever having a chance to hit it in the first place, sometimes he has to overcome a guy who works over his arm so the Rainmaker is less effective, etc. The matches are all different.

LU this season has felt like at least 90% kicks and spotfests. Part of the problem is that 90% of their roster basically only wrestles that way, part of it is that a lot of the guys that don't (particularly Matanza and Muertes) haven't been used much or have been used almost exclusively in squashes, and part of it is the wrestlers trying to have the best matches possibly but they're using only given 7-9 minutes and/or stuck in multi-person matches so this is what they basically have to do. But part of it is also not utilizing people can wrestle differently than that in situations that allow them to wrestle differently than that.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 25th, '18, 00:38
I don't think it's just Americans (or even Americans/Canadians). I've felt this way with OTT and some UK promotions sometimes. I don't think it's an issue of fame so much as the current zeitgeist is so interested in kitsch, and people like to "be a part of something." I also think a lot of it is people trying to imitate other crowds they've seen get praise, whether it's WWE putting over the Mania weekend crowd that one year (and Mania weekend crowds have been a big catalyst for this), or indy crowds trying to be the PWG crowd that Dave puts over or the CHIKARA crowds that get put over in that part of the internet and trying to be funny/clever/whatever. I don't think they're doing it for the personal fame of being seen on TV/going viral. I think they're doing it because they think that's what a wrestling crowd is supposed to do.

Ok, so i think this may be parting into two different things, on one side it is fans demanding entertainment regardless of the story, and the other is wanting to be part of something. The first is just human nature, it's been there since the beginning of wrestling, so we can't really blame anyone right now. You either accept it's fake and let it play out, or pretend it's real and ask for extra violence.

I think we're kinda talking about the same thing when you say 'being part of' and 'being famous', it's like they all want to be referenced even as a city or something and be part of that mass that was remembered. But I don't think it's something that they 'think they need to do', I see it more like 'that was soo cool, I want to experience the same thing even though i'm not willing to travel' kinda, and the smaller promotions themselves see things like slow motion or Penis spots or slamming the ring go 'viral' and they obviously want that viral money. This is a culture thing, not really something that we can blame on anyone in particular. Colt Cabana makes a podcast and a t-shirt because he gets no bookings, now Eva Marie and Lillian Garcia have podcasts. Everyone wants to capitalize on someone else's organic creations.

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 23:12 I want to see not the same f*cking FLIPZ & HEADDROPZ & MOVEZZZZZZZZZZ match or GRRRRRRR! FIGHTING SPIRIT! Shibata wanna-be match every time. PWG gives us something different than that in maybe two out of six or seven matches on the card. (And before you ask, the thing that makes "work the leg" feel different every time is that having a bump leg will affect Will Ospreay differently than it affects Zack Sabre Jr. differently than it affects Pete Dunne differently than it affects WALTER differently than it affects Kane differently than it affects Okada.)
It's not about the matches not having a story so much as the story being thin and thus most of them feel the same. By the fifth match on the card I've already seen a million dives, flips superkicks, running head kicks, headdrops, etc. What's the difference Sammy Guevara and Pentagon Jr. dropping each other on their heads fifteen times in the opener and Fenix and Joey Janela dropping each other on their heads fifteen times in the fourth match? It's like watching "the best of Tomohiro Ishii. All the matches are the exact same thing, so after the third match, It's going to lose it's effect. But if you watch "the best of Kazuchika Okada" the matches are all different. Sure, he's trying to hit the Rainmaker in every match, but sometimes he has to overcome a guy who is too fast and is able to duck it a lot, sometimes he has to overcome a guy who is so big he might not even be able to knock him down with it, sometimes he has to overcome someone who is able to lock him in holds and dominate him and stop him from ever having a chance to hit it in the first place, sometimes he has to overcome a guy who works over his arm so the Rainmaker is less effective, etc. The matches are all different.

LU this season has felt like at least 90% kicks and spotfests. Part of the problem is that 90% of their roster basically only wrestles that way, part of it is that a lot of the guys that don't (particularly Matanza and Muertes) haven't been used much or have been used almost exclusively in squashes, and part of it is the wrestlers trying to have the best matches possibly but they're using only given 7-9 minutes and/or stuck in multi-person matches so this is what they basically have to do. But part of it is also not utilizing people can wrestle differently than that in situations that allow them to wrestle differently than that.

Every match is different or the same, depending on what you're looking for. This is why a lot of WWE fans think that NJPW is boring, because all the matches start with the same 'measuring up' stuff and then proceed to striking each other for 15 minutes, and the same reason why '5 moves of doom' Cena exists til today. Ishii is a good example, to me he's like Tanahashi, they technically do the same thing all the time, it's always the same build, but to me their matches have all something different, it may be what they're body part they're selling, but they're different. Ishii sometimes goes full striker, sometimes he chases the brainbuster, there's really no difference between Ishii and Tanahashi. What for you a million dives and superkicks are today, i'm sure 15 yrs ago it was a million headlocks and scoop slams, and today, superkicks are just building tools, not finishers, so they're not different from Kobashi doing a million chops.

I agree that there are many matches that just work with the most minimal story of doing moves until I win, but even those have their value to a lot of fans. I enjoy a match like that after I've watched an intense psychology based match, I like having a spotfest or a comedy match in between my intense matches, I liked the technical ones following a hardcore match. All spotfests is as bad as all serious psychology matches back to back. It's tiresome. I do wish that wrestlers and bookers would be smarter on getting themselves over, I still believe in not spamming someone else's finisher, but as wrestling evolves, I think Petey Williams should make his Canadian Destroyer mean something special, or evolve beyond it, but I guess that growing up with lucha made me ok with everyone sharing certain moves.

LU this season has been it's own shitshow, but overall, they've always been a promotion that showcases fans as blood thirsty, going back to the 'we want tables' thing. But the lack of storyline, even knowing the characters, is what I attribute to really just being able to work with what they see inside the ring, I think their reactions are some of the most genuine whenit comes to matches and surprises because of that.

I'm almost somewhat surprised WWE booking has allowed the new day to 3 on 2 everyone for Soooooo long before finally actually having someone decide to do something about it. Not to mention the kayfabe eras of it too-general managers constantly never mentioning it even, let alone taking action against it in some way at all.

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 25th, '18, 10:55

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 25th, '18, 00:38
I don't think it's just Americans (or even Americans/Canadians). I've felt this way with OTT and some UK promotions sometimes. I don't think it's an issue of fame so much as the current zeitgeist is so interested in kitsch, and people like to "be a part of something." I also think a lot of it is people trying to imitate other crowds they've seen get praise, whether it's WWE putting over the Mania weekend crowd that one year (and Mania weekend crowds have been a big catalyst for this), or indy crowds trying to be the PWG crowd that Dave puts over or the CHIKARA crowds that get put over in that part of the internet and trying to be funny/clever/whatever. I don't think they're doing it for the personal fame of being seen on TV/going viral. I think they're doing it because they think that's what a wrestling crowd is supposed to do.

Ok, so i think this may be parting into two different things, on one side it is fans demanding entertainment regardless of the story, and the other is wanting to be part of something. The first is just human nature, it's been there since the beginning of wrestling, so we can't really blame anyone right now. You either accept it's fake and let it play out, or pretend it's real and ask for extra violence.

I don't think that dichotomy you described at the end is accurate. They know it's fake, but they are demanding to see the specific violence they want to see. It also feels like they don't see a difference between the different kind of gimmick matches anymore. These guys were clearly trying to have a "Falls Count Anywhere Match," while the fans were just demanding random violence, and the demand was pretty much immediate.

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 25th, '18, 10:55 I think we're kinda talking about the same thing when you say 'being part of' and 'being famous', it's like they all want to be referenced even as a city or something and be part of that mass that was remembered. But I don't think it's something that they 'think they need to do', I see it more like 'that was soo cool, I want to experience the same thing even though i'm not willing to travel' kinda, and the smaller promotions themselves see things like slow motion or Penis spots or slamming the ring go 'viral' and they obviously want that viral money. This is a culture thing, not really something that we can blame on anyone in particular. Colt Cabana makes a podcast and a t-shirt because he gets no bookings, now Eva Marie and Lillian Garcia have podcasts. Everyone wants to capitalize on someone else's organic creations.

Cabana takes fewer bookings because he's getting paid by ROH and makes advertising money, and is also often busy doing commentary for ROH. It's not that he did the podcast because he wasn't getting bookings.
I guess I agree with this paragraph otherwise. There are so many bastardized version of old franchises going around (Riverdale, ST:DIS, the new Sabrina the Teenage Witch got buried in my local paper for trying to be Buffy + horror movie rather than being anything that even resembled the comics or the sitcom or the cartoon), or just reboots with a lead of a different race/gender or just movie reboots in general. And those annoy me as well. Content creators need to be bold and be willing to put in the work to make their own stuff rather than piggybacking off of what others have already set up, and that goes for wrestling promotions, too. Do your own thing. Don't just be a fly-in promotion doing a bunch of one-offs with Pentagon Jr., Fenix, Joey Ryan, Janela, PCO, Naito, and WALTER. Grab a Brody King or a Fred Yehi or a Gunner Miller or a Tim Donst or even someone like Sammy Guevara and make him your guy and build everyone else up around him, so you are creating an environment where you offer fans a set of interactions both matter and are made unique by your universe.

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 23:12

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Oct 25th, '18, 00:38 I want to see not the same f*cking FLIPZ & HEADDROPZ & MOVEZZZZZZZZZZ match or GRRRRRRR! FIGHTING SPIRIT! Shibata wanna-be match every time. PWG gives us something different than that in maybe two out of six or seven matches on the card. (And before you ask, the thing that makes "work the leg" feel different every time is that having a bump leg will affect Will Ospreay differently than it affects Zack Sabre Jr. differently than it affects Pete Dunne differently than it affects WALTER differently than it affects Kane differently than it affects Okada.)
It's not about the matches not having a story so much as the story being thin and thus most of them feel the same. By the fifth match on the card I've already seen a million dives, flips superkicks, running head kicks, headdrops, etc. What's the difference Sammy Guevara and Pentagon Jr. dropping each other on their heads fifteen times in the opener and Fenix and Joey Janela dropping each other on their heads fifteen times in the fourth match? It's like watching "the best of Tomohiro Ishii. All the matches are the exact same thing, so after the third match, It's going to lose it's effect. But if you watch "the best of Kazuchika Okada" the matches are all different. Sure, he's trying to hit the Rainmaker in every match, but sometimes he has to overcome a guy who is too fast and is able to duck it a lot, sometimes he has to overcome a guy who is so big he might not even be able to knock him down with it, sometimes he has to overcome someone who is able to lock him in holds and dominate him and stop him from ever having a chance to hit it in the first place, sometimes he has to overcome a guy who works over his arm so the Rainmaker is less effective, etc. The matches are all different.

LU this season has felt like at least 90% kicks and spotfests. Part of the problem is that 90% of their roster basically only wrestles that way, part of it is that a lot of the guys that don't (particularly Matanza and Muertes) haven't been used much or have been used almost exclusively in squashes, and part of it is the wrestlers trying to have the best matches possibly but they're using only given 7-9 minutes and/or stuck in multi-person matches so this is what they basically have to do. But part of it is also not utilizing people can wrestle differently than that in situations that allow them to wrestle differently than that.

Every match is different or the same, depending on what you're looking for. This is why a lot of WWE fans think that NJPW is boring, because all the matches start with the same 'measuring up' stuff and then proceed to striking each other for 15 minutes, and the same reason why '5 moves of doom' Cena exists til today. Ishii is a good example, to me he's like Tanahashi, they technically do the same thing all the time, it's always the same build, but to me their matches have all something different, it may be what they're body part they're selling, but they're different. Ishii sometimes goes full striker, sometimes he chases the brainbuster, there's really no difference between Ishii and Tanahashi. What for you a million dives and superkicks are today, i'm sure 15 yrs ago it was a million headlocks and scoop slams, and today, superkicks are just building tools, not finishers, so they're not different from Kobashi doing a million chops.

I'm not upset that the superkick isn't a finisher anymore. I just don't want to see the same thing a million, zillion times. If every kick is a superkick, then no superkick is super. A guy like Ospreay does a great job of diversifying his kicks. (But I do also think there is a different between a chop to the chest and a full-force kick to the head in terms of how quickly it becomes overdone).
I agree that WWE is too patterned (though I blame this on instructions from the agents due to the higher-ups beliefs about how you have to do things on TV rather than on the wrestlers), but in other places I don't think the problem is the matches being patterned so much as it is the wrestlers just doing the same thing too much. I think I said this in one of my G1 reviews, but the thing that I think makes Omega, Okada, ZSJ, and KUSHIDA so much better than guys like Ishii, Naito, Tanahashi, and EVIL (and to a lesser extent, Goto) is that with that when you have, for example, Ishii vs. Naito, it's every Ishii match you've ever seen when Ishii is in control (or doing his no-selling), and when Naito is in control it's every Naito match you've ever seen. But guys like Zack, Omega, Okada, and KUSHIDA work to take an Ishii match and merge it with their match so that the match feels like one unique whole, rather than clips of all of these other matches shopped up and edited together.
Cena has fallen into the category of that second group of guys where he just does the same stuff all the time. But when they've stuck him in there with Dragon, Punk, Cesaro, AJ (well... at least at first with AJ) or someone else who tried to work differently, then his matches have been different.

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 23:12 I agree that there are many matches that just work with the most minimal story of doing moves until I win, but even those have their value to a lot of fans. I enjoy a match like that after I've watched an intense psychology based match, I like having a spotfest or a comedy match in between my intense matches, I liked the technical ones following a hardcore match. All spotfests is as bad as all serious psychology matches back to back. It's tiresome. I do wish that wrestlers and bookers would be smarter on getting themselves over, I still believe in not spamming someone else's finisher, but as wrestling evolves, I think Petey Williams should make his Canadian Destroyer mean something special, or evolve beyond it, but I guess that growing up with lucha made me ok with everyone sharing certain moves.

I think psychology-heavy matches can work back to back in the psychology is different. The "keep teasing the finisher" match is perfectly fine going on right after the traditional babyface-in-peril tag team match.
I think a indy wrestling in particular has gotten more free-form and become more about the "freedom" to put on the match you want to put on and do what you want to do, and as the information super-highway has gotten faster, indy wrestling has become more about getting your name out there/going viral, either by doing something crazy/dangerous/ridiculous, or by you and your opponent working together to have the best match possible, it has become less of a team sport. Part of this is due to bookers/promoters having less control over the talent due to simple geography (it's much easier for a promoter in LA, Chicago, Florida, or Texas to see, contact, book, and fly in a mid-level indy guy from New York, so the wrestler isn't as beholden to northeast bookers/promoters, and those promoters feel like they're taking less of a risk because they're not just operating off of one highlight tape and word of mouth), and thus they can't enforce discipline as well on their shows (like if someone does a kick-out after a low blow in their match when that's the finish of a later match), but I also think there is less of a desire to do so.
Wrestling has gotten a lot more artistically liberal over the past decade (and certainly the past fifteen years), and promoters/bookers nowadays often seen to have the goal of getting hype for their promotion by bringing in a bunch of huge names to try to have MOTYCs rather than trying to get attention by telling compelling stories (while still trying to keep a high quality of wrestling, of course). Part of that is due to the best way to get attention being Meltzer and Dave not having time to pay attention to storylines that aren't in WWE, Japan, or Mexico (and occasionally ROH and TNA) (it shocks me that, as a wrestling fan, he'll go out of his way to match Mixed-Match Challenge, which he knows is irrelveant, rather than dedicating that hour to trying to watch something like wXw Shotgun or MLW,. never mind CWF Mid-Atlantic or whoever it was that was getting all that praise for their TV show a few years ago). But I think part of it is also due to a lack of creativity and/or desire to put in the work. The wrestling world is running out of Gabes and Quackenbushes and Prazaks, who want their talent to do-and not do- specific things for a specific purpose.

cero2k wrote: ↑Oct 24th, '18, 23:12 LU this season has been it's own shitshow, but overall, they've always been a promotion that showcases fans as blood thirsty, going back to the 'we want tables' thing. But the lack of storyline, even knowing the characters, is what I attribute to really just being able to work with what they see inside the ring, I think their reactions are some of the most genuine when it comes to matches and surprises because of that.

That I get. I don't mind the LU fans cheering heels and stuff, and the portrayal of them as blood-thirsty was a good kayfabe cover for that. But in a promotion as storyline-heavy as LU, I'd expect the wrestlers (and bookers) to enure that the action going on in the matches ties into the storylines better. For example, when Fenix wrestles right now, he just comes off to me as heel Fenix, not Fenix with some sort of possession going on that he's trying to fight back against. He doesn't, for example, move in sudden, off-putting ways the way you might expect in order to show something is wrong with him mentally.