cero2k wrote:hey Red, did you listen to the Lance show today? what did you think?

I did. I think he is thinking a bit too next level. There is no disputing that the things he is saying both make sense and have some sort of merit. His points on Gulak in particular were 100% correct, and if I were knowledgeable enough about MMA to understand that he made a mistake it would have bothered... but I will admit that I didn't notice these things at all.
I think this case in particualr is a fantastic example of the power of the announcers. If Bryan or Mauro had pointed out any of the things Lance pointed out in the way Lance pointed them out, it would have completely buried Gulak, but the fact that they didn't means it probably went unnoticed by 99.9% of those who saw it.

As for Lance's thoughts about the booking of the tournament in general... once again, he's not necessarily wrong that they could be doing it better and his way would be better, but as Alvarez pointed out, for the audience that is watching it, the excitement of Zack Sabre Jr. vs. Drew Gulak is enough. If this were on real TV meant for a mainstream audience, I'd agree with him more. Basically, they're not doing things 100% optimally, but in this case I don't think that the sub-optimal (still great, but technically sub-optimal) execution is hurting the excitement for this at all.

Big Red Machine wrote:

cero2k wrote:hey Red, did you listen to the Lance show today? what did you think?

I did. I think he is thinking a bit too next level. There is no disputing that the things he is saying both make sense and have some sort of merit. His points on Gulak in particular were 100% correct, and if I were knowledgeable enough about MMA to understand that he made a mistake it would have bothered... but I will admit that I didn't notice these things at all.
I think this case in particualr is a fantastic example of the power of the announcers. If Bryan or Mauro had pointed out any of the things Lance pointed out in the way Lance pointed them out, it would have completely buried Gulak, but the fact that they didn't means it probably went unnoticed by 99.9% of those who saw it.

As for Lance's thoughts about the booking of the tournament in general... once again, he's not necessarily wrong that they could be doing it better and his way would be better, but as Alvarez pointed out, for the audience that is watching it, the excitement of Zack Sabre Jr. vs. Drew Gulak is enough. If this were on real TV meant for a mainstream audience, I'd agree with him more. Basically, they're not doing things 100% optimally, but in this case I don't think that the sub-optimal (still great, but technically sub-optimal) execution is hurting the excitement for this at all.

i understood where he was coming from, lots of things made sense like the size thing and Gulak getting out-wrestled, but i also felt that his opinion sounded like he has no idea who he is watching and what type of show he was watching. The Sabre Jr comments really got to me, he straight up wants Zack Sabre not to be Zack Sabre because he doesn't know Zack Sabre, he is a cocky technician, that's his gimmick, technitians rarely downplay against bigger guys, Angle, Benoit, Dragon, they all went head first against bigger guys, and now Storm wants Sabre to be less cocky against a dude that is still under a weight limit?

kinda the same with Gulak being overtaken in the test of strength, it's not like it was legit Gulak vs Big Show, it was just another guy that can't be over a certain weight limit, it's not hard to believe that he was overtaken.

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:

cero2k wrote:hey Red, did you listen to the Lance show today? what did you think?

I did. I think he is thinking a bit too next level. There is no disputing that the things he is saying both make sense and have some sort of merit. His points on Gulak in particular were 100% correct, and if I were knowledgeable enough about MMA to understand that he made a mistake it would have bothered... but I will admit that I didn't notice these things at all.
I think this case in particualr is a fantastic example of the power of the announcers. If Bryan or Mauro had pointed out any of the things Lance pointed out in the way Lance pointed them out, it would have completely buried Gulak, but the fact that they didn't means it probably went unnoticed by 99.9% of those who saw it.

As for Lance's thoughts about the booking of the tournament in general... once again, he's not necessarily wrong that they could be doing it better and his way would be better, but as Alvarez pointed out, for the audience that is watching it, the excitement of Zack Sabre Jr. vs. Drew Gulak is enough. If this were on real TV meant for a mainstream audience, I'd agree with him more. Basically, they're not doing things 100% optimally, but in this case I don't think that the sub-optimal (still great, but technically sub-optimal) execution is hurting the excitement for this at all.

i understood where he was coming from, lots of things made sense like the size thing and Gulak getting out-wrestled, but i also felt that his opinion sounded like he has no idea who he is watching and what type of show he was watching. The Sabre Jr comments really got to me, he straight up wants Zack Sabre not to be Zack Sabre because he doesn't know Zack Sabre, he is a cocky technician, that's his gimmick, technitians rarely downplay against bigger guys, Angle, Benoit, Dragon, they all went head first against bigger guys, and now Storm wants Sabre to be less cocky against a dude that is still under a weight limit?

I agree that Lance doesn't sound familiar with Zack's work, but don't I think that being cocky is what makes Zack Zack. What Lance wants to see is a progressing story being told, and he would like to see the differences between the wrestlers being accentuated in such a way that is conducive to telling such a story. The story Lance proposes is... I don't know if it would necessarily be correct to call it "more compelling" than what WWE has done, but it is certainly a story that is easier to illustrate to the fans, both from the commentary table and in video packages, and possibly also in the ring. It would certainly make each match a bit more memorable if it played a part in a story that is more than just "there is a tournament that people are trying to win." I don't think there is anything wrong with "there is a tournament that people are trying to win," but I do think that the most memorable tournaments are the ones where there is something more going on. That's what made the first Survival of the Fittest so amazing, as compared to the next few. The only ones I remember the actual stories of the match for were that one, 2007, and 2015 because those were the ones with the most overarching storytelling going on. I've rated others higher than those (well... not higher than the 2004 one because that was 10/10, but higher than the other two) and even apparently thought there was great storytelling within those matches, but it was all based around "I am doing this to try to win the match" and therefore is less memorable afterwards.

Like I said above, Lance's thinking is VERY next level. He is considering both the big picture and the little details all at the same time and weaving them together. That's some top-notch stuff right there. It's the reason I love EVOLVE so much and the reason CHIKARA was so great in 2007-2013, and I'm sure that's what Meltzer saw in some of these recent G1's that he's talked so highly of (although it'd be nice if he were actually able to articulate it well, with details). But I think that that isn't what the standard CWC crowd or wacky PWG-esque indy crowd or the Dragon Gate spot-fest fans or even the "mainstream" WWE/TNA crowds expect. It's not that they wouldn't like it if you gave it to them. It's even possible they'd like it more than they like what we're getting now. But if they're not expecting to get it then they won't realize it's missing.

Cedric vs Kota was a match of the year candidate, holy hell

SECOND-ROUND MATCH: Gran Metalik vs. Tajiri- 8/10
Mauro completely randomly brings up PRIDE. At this point I think he’s just trolling Vince.
This match was awesome… and this ISN’T the match on this show that everyone is talking about.

SECOND-ROUND MATCH: Kota Ibushi vs. Cedric Alexander- 9.25/10
This was basically a crazier, better, more extreme and more emotional version of this morning’s G1 match between Tetsuya Naito and YOSHI-HASHI. Going into this match everyone basically figured that there was no chance in hell that Cedric would win because Kota is Kota and he didn’t leave New Japan to job in the second round of a tournament, and while Cedric is a great wrestler, he’s not so amazing that WWE needs to push him over Kota (plus he’s already working for EVOLVE and sure as hell isn’t going back to ROH any time soon). Like in the G1 match, over the course of this match they had Cedric take it to Kota enough that you actually started to buy that Cedric had an equal shot at winning. Bryan and Mauro’s commentary really helped here, too. A guy doesn’t wrestle something an announcer pushes as “the match of his life” without winning, right?
What puts this over the top of the G1 match was that B Block in the G1 had had so many upsets that while a YOSHI-HASHI victory would have been huge, it wouldn’t have stood out quite as much as what would clearly be the first real upset of this tournament. The other thing that made this about two levels about that match was the ultra-hot crowd. That crowd was hot, but this crowd was CRAZY.

NWK2000 wrote:Cedric vs Kota was a match of the year candidate, holy hell

In any other year but this one, probably, but the first six four months of this year were completely crazy. I think it's about my #5 right now, but I'd have to go back and check. Off the top of my head I can already think of four matches I have rated higher.

Big Red Machine wrote:

NWK2000 wrote:Cedric vs Kota was a match of the year candidate, holy hell

In any other year but this one, probably, but the first six four months of this year were completely crazy. I think it's about my #5 right now, but I'd have to go back and check. Off the top of my head I can already think of four matches I have rated higher.

Make that five matches higher than it. I totally forgot about Aztec Warfare.

SECOND-ROUND MATCH: Akira Tozawa vs. Jack Gallagher- 6.75/10
Lots of good submission work by Gallagher, to the point that they had me thinking that an upset was possible. Great selling by Tozawa, too.

SECOND-ROUND MATCH: Noam Dar vs. Hoho Lun- 5.5/10
This was pretty much just Dar dominating with submissions on the knee.

SECOND-ROUND MATCH: Brian Kendrick vs. Tony Nese- 8.25/10
Awesome match. This Kendrick story is very gripping. He manages to be simultaneously an underdog babyface and a “win at all costs” heel. It’s fascinating.

Salty that Lun didn't win, but glad Dar actually looked good, unlike round 1
Gallagher and Tozawa should both be signed.
Nese vs Kendrick was great too.

SECOND-ROUND MATCH: Rich Swann vs. Lince Dorado- 6.75/10
Enjoyed the fans singing a mash-up of Swann’s new music and his indy music. The match was what you would expect from these two guys.

JOHNNY GARGANO PROMO- he talks about how hard he will fight to win the Cruiserweight Classic. And there is Tommaso Ciampa standing right there with him.

SECOND-ROUND MATCH: Zack Sabre Jr. vs. Drew Gulak- 7.5/10
A very EVOLVE-style match. Someone who hasn’t seen these two in EVOLVE so much might rate this higher.

SECOND-ROUND MATCH: TJ Perkins vs. Johnny Gargano- 8.25/10
Hell of a match. That lawn dart was SICK. Great selling by Gargano, and a great display of pretty much everything there is in wrestling by both guys.

QUARTERFINAL MATCH: Akira Tozawa vs. Gran Metalik- 8.5/10
Well… that will be tough for the next guys to beat. There was a point in here where pretty much everything became a believable finish. So who do you think is more embarrassed at this point: ROH for letting Cedric go or New Japan for letting Mascara Dorada go?

QUARTERFINAL MATCH: Brian Kendrick vs. Kota Ibushi- 8/10
So they came close, but couldn’t quite follow it.

who needs Cedric when you got Rush and Gresham who are technically younger versions of Cedric anyway

cero2k wrote:who needs Cedric when you got Rush and Gresham who are technically younger versions of Cedric anyway

Rush and Cedric have very different styles.
Gresham is actually older than Cedric.

QUARTERFINAL MATCH: Zack Sabre Jr. vs Noam Dar- 9/10
This tournament just keeps getting better and better! This was like getting to watch EVOLVE in a WWE ring. They did a fantastic job of telling their story, the selling was excellent, the pacing was great, and holy sh*t THAT FINISH WAS SICK!

QUARTERFINAL MATCH: Rich Swann vs. TJ Perkins- 7.75/10
What is this “dabbing” thing, where did it come from, and how did it become associated with TJP?
The match was awesome. If Swann had sold it a bit better this probably would have been an 8/10

They're all vanilla midgets, that's my thoughts.

KILLdozer wrote:They're all vanilla midgets, that's my thoughts.

the Cruiserweights can cruiser-wait, brother

I was not digging TJP until his match with Swann. Him crying because he injured his friend was amazing, and put that match for me in the top five

NWK2000 wrote:I was not digging TJP until his match with Swann. Him crying because he injured his friend was amazing, and put that match for me in the top five

TJP has been my MVP of the tournament, close second Metallik. TJP is seriously the most underrated wrestler in the world, and has been for some years

OPENING VIDEO PACKAGE- great, except that I just can’t deal with Hunter’s voice as the narrator. I’ve heard him as Triple H the character for so long that I just can’t separate it. I would have preferred Mauro or Cole.

SEMI-FINAL MATCH: Zack Sabre Jr. vs. Gran Metalik- 7.75/10
Great opener. Metalik got the win. After the match they interviewed him in the ring and had him speak through a non-gimmicked translator, which is the first time I can ever remember that happening in WWE. It gave it a very “real-sports” feel.

CIAMPA & GARGANO PROMO- “DIY” is apparently their official name. They’re facing Noam Dar & Cedric Alexander tonight. Ciampa cut a great promo on The Revival.

SEMI-FINAL MATCH: Kota Ibushi vs. TJ Perkins- 8.5/10
They told a fantastic story based around Kota’s kicks, TJP working the knee, and TJP’s underdog status.

CEDRIC ALEXANDER & NOAM DAR INTERVIEW- meh

DIY (Tommaso Ciampa & Johnny Gargano) vs. Cedric Alexander & Noam Dar- 8/10
Crazy tag team match.

CRUISERWEIGHT CLASSIC FINALS TO CROWN A NEW WWE CRUISERWEIGHT CHAMPION: Gran Metalik vs. TJ Perkins- 8.5/10
HOLY F*CK THAT HURRICANRANA!
This was one hell of a match and absolutely fantastic moment for TJP. I can’t imagine that both of these guys won’t be on Raw on Monday.

TJ PERKINS INTERVIEW- fantastic.

The highlight of the finals for me, other than being made a complete believer in TJP, was the impotent nerd rage directed at everyone that wasn't Ibushi, to the point where TJP got heel heat because he eliminated Ibushi