KILLdozer wrote:Oh-I know this shit. They've got all kinds of "strange shit" , like haunted houses, mythical beasts, ...yea, a wrestling show will fit right in. Very out of place IMO.

Big Red Machine wrote:

KILLdozer wrote:Oh-I know this shit. They've got all kinds of "strange shit" , like haunted houses, mythical beasts, ...yea, a wrestling show will fit right in. Very out of place IMO.

First Destination America TNA main event: Mantaur vs. The Yetti!

badnewzxl wrote:True. I always thought they should've had something better happen at Elimination Chamber but they decided to go with dramaover action. That's where they missed the opportunity

Big Red Machine wrote:

badnewzxl wrote:True. I always thought they should've had something better happen at Elimination Chamber but they decided to go with dramaover action. That's where they missed the opportunity

Elimination Chamber is one of those shows that I actually hate because it is them doing action instead of good storytelling to set up Mania. They just throw a bunch of guys in the chamber just because they want to have a chamber match, and that year in particular, I think it was a mistake. They felt that they needed to put Jericho and Punk in the same match, so they had Jericho in the chamber and had Punk knock him out, killing his momentum dead. They should have done what they did this year with Batista and had him just get a dominant win over someone else.

badnewzxl wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:

badnewzxl wrote:True. I always thought they should've had something better happen at Elimination Chamber but they decided to go with dramaover action. That's where they missed the opportunity

Elimination Chamber is one of those shows that I actually hate because it is them doing action instead of good storytelling to set up Mania. They just throw a bunch of guys in the chamber just because they want to have a chamber match, and that year in particular, I think it was a mistake. They felt that they needed to put Jericho and Punk in the same match, so they had Jericho in the chamber and had Punk knock him out, killing his momentum dead. They should have done what they did this year with Batista and had him just get a dominant win over someone else.

Or let it come down to those two, give Punk the win then have Jericho attack him after the match, setting up for Mania and getting heat on Jericho. The Jericho could claim the only reason Punk beat him was bc four other guys got in his way.

Big Red Machine wrote:
From what I've heard, it only affects certain guys (Cole, Elgin Briscoes, reDRagon).
As for who will want to stay with ROH? EVERYONE. They have the most exposure of any indy, they have lots of brand-name value, they probably pay better, and they have the in with New Japan.
if guys like Styles and The Bucks have rejected WWE, don't think for a second that ROH has it made.
WWE isn't just restrictive in terms of where you can work. It is also restrictive in the ring, both in terms of time and style. I think that this is the major reason they turned them down. If you can split time between ROH and New Japan the way AJ and the Bucks have, plus charge a good price on the indies, you seem pretty set to me.
what indies? the ones that don't put out DVDs nor iPPVs, that likely leaves $100 matches in nowhere towns. And if we're talking that they would prefer ROH over the rest, then expose and money isn't the issue since (1) WWE can offer them more regardless of the style of matches (which as we've seen with NxT, don't suffer thaat much) and (2) ROH can't match the amount they likely earn by doing all those extra shows around the US

As for it affecting PWG... all of PWG's matches are interchangeable spotfests anyway. Granted, Cole and O'Reilly were two guys who were a lot better at making it feel less like that, but still... basically everyone on the PWG roster is inter changeable to a degree. If they cna't use Elgin, they can stick Brian Cage in that spot and the match will go the same way.
it doesn't matter, it still cuts their roster almost by half. and spotfest or not, it's still more entertaining that ROH [-(
The only guys it really affects are Elgin, Cole, and Kyle. The Briscoes have been no-showing/cancelling PWG appearances for years, and I don't think Fish has worked their too much. It doesn't cut their roster by half. They have tons of guys, and as the AIW promoter said: you go find new guys. That's what ROH has been doing for years.
and ACH, and Daniels, and Kazarian, and The Bucks, and Ciampa, and Cedric Alexander, and Roderick. They're crippling most of their main eventers. I mean, they're next show is called Black COLE Sun!


As for it being more entertaining... can you really tell me that every PWG match doesn't blend together for you? I've watched basically everything over the past few years before this year's BOLA, and I barely remember anything that didn't involve Candice and Joey. I don't even remember the results of the previous show. With ROH, that never happens. I know who is doing what, who is moving up and down the card, I remember big spots. I think the last time I watched an entire PWG show in one sitting was Steen Wolf or Fear. Why? Because after two matches, everything starts to feel the same, and I stop caring.
Serves both ways, i really don't care about what happens with ROH aside from maybe the main event. All matches/All wrestlers are pretty much the same thing. storylines are pretty meh too, i enjoyed ROH more when i was watching shows without chronological order. I don't think i've watched a full ROH show since Steen won the title, i've actually bought DVDs that are sitting collecting dust. PWG on the other hand, there is not a single show in the last 3 years that i haven't bought, every match top to bottom excites me, i remember the spots, i mark out for them, i've seen guys progress and guys leave. I saw KO and Candice and Joey work their way to the titles.



And actually cutting their talent out of PWG is good for ROH. Now that Chuck Taylor is a free agent, it stops PWG form booking the "dream matches" that ROH might want to.
but it stops PWG from doing the dream matches that ROH is slow at delivering, so in the words of Kevin Steen, "fuck ROH"
Too slow? Why? Because ROH has patience and is interested in both making money and delivering a creatively satisfying product?
Yeah, and how many times has their patience payed off? the company that you agree 'never strikes when the iron is hot'. and making money and a satisfying product? ask the internet, ask them what they think about how ROH looks like a cheap indie that can't afford lighting. PWG makes more than enough money and create a product that likely has more fans around the world than ROH today. The reason they don't go out to arenas is not because they can't fill them up, it's because the legion hall is part of PWG, just like The Arena was part of ECW. They have created a smart product that excites the people, doesn't cost much, and creates buzz and money.


Hypothetical:
We are going to get Kurt Angle vs. Bryan Danielson. You would rather A) someone just said: "Hey guys! We're doing Kurt vs. Dragon tomorrow. Buy the DVD!" Or would you rather B) have Dragon come out and say that he is the best wrestler in the world. Then have Kurt Angle's music play and Kurt come out and tell Dragon that his Olympic Gold Medal says differently. Then we get a staredown. Then we get a show where Dragon cuts a promo saying he'll make Kurt tap because he'll be damned if he loses on his home turf. Then we get a show where Kurt cuts promo saying that this is his first match in this promotion and he'll be damned if he will walk out of the arena with anything but a victory. Then we have some video packages, and THEN we have the match.
Which of those scenarios is more exciting?
yeah, maybe a little backstory helps, but it still won't make me tune in. i'll watch that final product (the match) regardless if there was build or not, I'm not into wrestling because Angle and Bryan can cut some promos, i'm in it to see them wrestle.


ROH is "too slow" to deliver on dream matches because THEY ACTUALLY HAVE IMPORTANT SH*T GOING ON! PWG doesn't. I'm sure I'm sounding like a wrestling snob here, but PWG's "booking" is crap, and they get by on having a card full of spotfests. They just got lucky that this somehow turned them into the hipster-ville promotion (and the fan's helped. I do like that the fans are into the kayfabe).
the only dream matches that ROH has delivered are matches that include guys from NJPW and they have nothing important behind them, they're just here to visit. Otherwise, most of the matches have already happened somewhere else and i'm not just saying PWG, but a bunch of other promotions have booked actual dream matches before ROH does. And you may call PWG a hipster ville or crap spotfest (as crap as you always give it good ratings), but the truth is that PWG's formula works, without a tv deal or an iPPV deal, they've gained more fans than ROH in the last years. I traveled to BOLA and I met a guy that traveled from ireland for BOLA, and i met Brad Maddox at BOLA. PWG is gaining more than it's losing with their 'crap spotfest booking. Honestly, storyline booking is overrated, specially when it's a promotion with less than a show per month.


And speaking of Kevin Steen and "f*ck ROH"... that wasn't PWG's idea. That was ROH's. Steen putting PWG over on the ROH message board was all Steen's idea. And yet PWG just comes along and jumps into it and cuts ROH's legs off by Booking a world tile match between Davey and Steen and a world title match between Steen and Generico (with a completely random ladder stip, no less) when it was clear that ROH was building to those two matches. Why? No reason. And when I say "no reason" that's exactly what I mean. ANYONE could have fit into those spots (because PWG's "booking" is so random), and PWG just so happened to choose guys who ROH was looking to book Steen against. If I was ROH, I'd have been pissed as hell.
I didn't say it was a PWG thing, I'm just agreeing with Steen. and so what? you can't book your own matches because 'god almighty' roh is planing on doing it? screw that, PWG earns their money. It's not like ROH has taken booking ideas from other places.

Big Red Machine wrote:Did you guys really see Punk vs. Jericho as that much of a dream match?

Drink up, Punk!

Big Red Machine wrote:but this was a Wretlemania main event, and you need to do whatever you need to do to draw in the casual fans. I don't think they (casuals outside of Chicago) saw Punk on that level yet

Big Red Machine wrote:and I certainly don't think that they saw it as a dream match.

Big Red Machine wrote:But that wasn't the story they chose to tell because they thought (and I agree) they needed an angle for this match for Mania

Bob-O wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:Did you guys really see Punk vs. Jericho as that much of a dream match?

Yes. Two of my favorite's of all time. "Best In The World" / "Best In The World At What I do". Both great workers, both great promos, both with plenty to brag about. It could have been a modern classic, something we talked about for years and years and years to come. Instead we got...

Drink up, Punk!

...and the second they started making it 8-| personal, I knew they'd ruined it.

Big Red Machine wrote:but this was a Wretlemania main event, and you need to do whatever you need to do to draw in the casual fans. I don't think they (casuals outside of Chicago) saw Punk on that level yet

He was the champion, and was crushing it in merchandise sales at the time. How could you not see him at that level?

Big Red Machine wrote:and I certainly don't think that they saw it as a dream match.

Had they put half the effort into promoting as a dream match instead of "...staaaahp lying about me! you can't talk about my sister..." a lot of people would have seen it different.

Big Red Machine wrote:But that wasn't the story they chose to tell because they thought (and I agree) they needed an angle for this match for Mania

It was the title match! Why would you need an angle for it beyond the title being on the line...?

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:
From what I've heard, it only affects certain guys (Cole, Elgin Briscoes, reDRagon).
As for who will want to stay with ROH? EVERYONE. They have the most exposure of any indy, they have lots of brand-name value, they probably pay better, and they have the in with New Japan.
if guys like Styles and The Bucks have rejected WWE, don't think for a second that ROH has it made.
WWE isn't just restrictive in terms of where you can work. It is also restrictive in the ring, both in terms of time and style. I think that this is the major reason they turned them down. If you can split time between ROH and New Japan the way AJ and the Bucks have, plus charge a good price on the indies, you seem pretty set to me.
what indies? the ones that don't put out DVDs nor iPPVs, that likely leaves $100 matches in nowhere towns. And if we're talking that they would prefer ROH over the rest, then expose and money isn't the issue since (1) WWE can offer them more regardless of the style of matches (which as we've seen with NxT, don't suffer thaat much) and (2) ROH can't match the amount they likely earn by doing all those extra shows around the US

As for it affecting PWG... all of PWG's matches are interchangeable spotfests anyway. Granted, Cole and O'Reilly were two guys who were a lot better at making it feel less like that, but still... basically everyone on the PWG roster is inter changeable to a degree. If they cna't use Elgin, they can stick Brian Cage in that spot and the match will go the same way.
it doesn't matter, it still cuts their roster almost by half. and spotfest or not, it's still more entertaining that ROH [-(
The only guys it really affects are Elgin, Cole, and Kyle. The Briscoes have been no-showing/cancelling PWG appearances for years, and I don't think Fish has worked their too much. It doesn't cut their roster by half. They have tons of guys, and as the AIW promoter said: you go find new guys. That's what ROH has been doing for years.
and ACH, and Daniels, and Kazarian, and The Bucks, and Ciampa, and Cedric Alexander, and Roderick. They're crippling most of their main eventers. I mean, they're next show is called Black COLE Sun!


As for it being more entertaining... can you really tell me that every PWG match doesn't blend together for you? I've watched basically everything over the past few years before this year's BOLA, and I barely remember anything that didn't involve Candice and Joey. I don't even remember the results of the previous show. With ROH, that never happens. I know who is doing what, who is moving up and down the card, I remember big spots. I think the last time I watched an entire PWG show in one sitting was Steen Wolf or Fear. Why? Because after two matches, everything starts to feel the same, and I stop caring.
Serves both ways, i really don't care about what happens with ROH aside from maybe the main event. All matches/All wrestlers are pretty much the same thing. storylines are pretty meh too, i enjoyed ROH more when i was watching shows without chronological order. I don't think i've watched a full ROH show since Steen won the title, i've actually bought DVDs that are sitting collecting dust. PWG on the other hand, there is not a single show in the last 3 years that i haven't bought, every match top to bottom excites me, i remember the spots, i mark out for them, i've seen guys progress and guys leave. I saw KO and Candice and Joey work their way to the titles.



And actually cutting their talent out of PWG is good for ROH. Now that Chuck Taylor is a free agent, it stops PWG form booking the "dream matches" that ROH might want to.
but it stops PWG from doing the dream matches that ROH is slow at delivering, so in the words of Kevin Steen, "fuck ROH"
Too slow? Why? Because ROH has patience and is interested in both making money and delivering a creatively satisfying product?
Yeah, and how many times has their patience payed off? the company that you agree 'never strikes when the iron is hot'. and making money and a satisfying product? ask the internet, ask them what they think about how ROH looks like a cheap indie that can't afford lighting. PWG makes more than enough money and create a product that likely has more fans around the world than ROH today. The reason they don't go out to arenas is not because they can't fill them up, it's because the legion hall is part of PWG, just like The Arena was part of ECW. They have created a smart product that excites the people, doesn't cost much, and creates buzz and money.


Hypothetical:
We are going to get Kurt Angle vs. Bryan Danielson. You would rather A) someone just said: "Hey guys! We're doing Kurt vs. Dragon tomorrow. Buy the DVD!" Or would you rather B) have Dragon come out and say that he is the best wrestler in the world. Then have Kurt Angle's music play and Kurt come out and tell Dragon that his Olympic Gold Medal says differently. Then we get a staredown. Then we get a show where Dragon cuts a promo saying he'll make Kurt tap because he'll be damned if he loses on his home turf. Then we get a show where Kurt cuts promo saying that this is his first match in this promotion and he'll be damned if he will walk out of the arena with anything but a victory. Then we have some video packages, and THEN we have the match.
Which of those scenarios is more exciting?
yeah, maybe a little backstory helps, but it still won't make me tune in. i'll watch that final product (the match) regardless if there was build or not, I'm not into wrestling because Angle and Bryan can cut some promos, i'm in it to see them wrestle.


ROH is "too slow" to deliver on dream matches because THEY ACTUALLY HAVE IMPORTANT SH*T GOING ON! PWG doesn't. I'm sure I'm sounding like a wrestling snob here, but PWG's "booking" is crap, and they get by on having a card full of spotfests. They just got lucky that this somehow turned them into the hipster-ville promotion (and the fan's helped. I do like that the fans are into the kayfabe).
the only dream matches that ROH has delivered are matches that include guys from NJPW and they have nothing important behind them, they're just here to visit. Otherwise, most of the matches have already happened somewhere else and i'm not just saying PWG, but a bunch of other promotions have booked actual dream matches before ROH does. And you may call PWG a hipster ville or crap spotfest (as crap as you always give it good ratings), but the truth is that PWG's formula works, without a tv deal or an iPPV deal, they've gained more fans than ROH in the last years. I traveled to BOLA and I met a guy that traveled from ireland for BOLA, and i met Brad Maddox at BOLA. PWG is gaining more than it's losing with their 'crap spotfest booking. Honestly, storyline booking is overrated, specially when it's a promotion with less than a show per month.


And speaking of Kevin Steen and "f*ck ROH"... that wasn't PWG's idea. That was ROH's. Steen putting PWG over on the ROH message board was all Steen's idea. And yet PWG just comes along and jumps into it and cuts ROH's legs off by Booking a world tile match between Davey and Steen and a world title match between Steen and Generico (with a completely random ladder stip, no less) when it was clear that ROH was building to those two matches. Why? No reason. And when I say "no reason" that's exactly what I mean. ANYONE could have fit into those spots (because PWG's "booking" is so random), and PWG just so happened to choose guys who ROH was looking to book Steen against. If I was ROH, I'd have been pissed as hell.
I didn't say it was a PWG thing, I'm just agreeing with Steen. and so what? you can't book your own matches because 'god almighty' roh is planing on doing it? screw that, PWG earns their money. It's not like ROH has taken booking ideas from other places.

Bob-O wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:Did you guys really see Punk vs. Jericho as that much of a dream match?

Yes. Two of my favorite's of all time. "Best In The World" / "Best In The World At What I do". Both great workers, both great promos, both with plenty to brag about. It could have been a modern classic, something we talked about for years and years and years to come. Instead we got...

Drink up, Punk!

...and the second they started making it 8-| personal, I knew they'd ruined it.

Bob-O wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:but this was a Wretlemania main event, and you need to do whatever you need to do to draw in the casual fans. I don't think they (casuals outside of Chicago) saw Punk on that level yet

He was the champion, and was crushing it in merchandise sales at the time. How could you not see him at that level?

Bob-O wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:and I certainly don't think that they saw it as a dream match.

Had they put half the effort into promoting as a dream match instead of "...staaaahp lying about me! you can't talk about my sister..." a lot of people would have seen it different.

Bob-O wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote:But that wasn't the story they chose to tell because they thought (and I agree) they needed an angle for this match for Mania

It was the title match! Why would you need an angle for it beyond the title being on the line...?

Today's Observer wrote:Regarding stories breaking about ROH and indies, this is the latest we’ve been told. There are two types of ROH contracts. There are contracted talent and there are exclusive contracted talent. In either case, ROH gets first priority on all dates. In the past, ROH exclusive contracted talent, which are paid better, are allowed to work up to three outside dates per month. The company is trying to get the top tier talent that it has under contract (which wouldn’t include A.J. Styles) away from working independent dates unless it’s something like New Japan that goes through the office. This does affect PWG in particular, which much of the top ROH talent works for and Kyle O’Reilly is the current champion. The feeling is the PWG shows can be hard on the body, and they don’t want their talent getting hurt working at PWG. There have been a couple of ROH wrestlers who were hurt on PWG shows and kept it quiet. The company doesn’t want to risk injuries the guys they are building around getting if it’s not on their own shows, plus they want all the focus of their talent and of people following their talent to be on ROH shows.

Big Red Machine wrote: F*CK! I just spent about two hours writing a reply to this and then timed out so I lost it all and I really don't want to type it over again, so here are the highlights that I can remember:

1. The idea that PWG has gained more fans than ROH in the past few years is utterly laughable. There is not a single city in the world that they would outdraw ROH in. Maybe they'd do the same number in some indy hotbeds like NY or Chicago or Philly, but there is no way in hell PWG would outdraw ROH anywhere else.
you underestamate what a small company that only puts out DVDs has achieved in the last years. Thremendous III was a turning point for them. They sell around 500 tickets to the legion hall shows and people still get left outside. I'm not saying that they would outsell ROH everywhere, but bring PWG to the eastcoast fans and they would go crazy over it. ROH however, i'm sure that just like me or YCW, got tired of ROH and their booking.

2. When you say that ROH hasn't delivered any dream matches aside from the NJPW shows, you are forgetting YEARS worth of history. If you really want me to list them again, I will. Most importantly, though, most ROH's dream matches involve one of more parties that ROH themselves elevated to the level that they can have something would be called a "dream match."
this is gonna be hard to debate since you'll consider some matches more of a dream match than i do, to me i can't remember one since Briscoes vs WGTT. Yeah, Bucks vs Briscoes or Bad Influence vs Briscoes could be 'dreamy' but they would have happened sooner or later in ROH or somewhere else.

3. Storyline booking is at its best when you only run once a month because it is a lot easier for fans to follow the story.
not necessarily, it requires a whole lot of work to keep your fans up to date between dates and your fans paying attention to each time you put something out there. You can't just rely on doing all the storytelling at shows. With complex stories it's best to just have weekly product

4. Yes, I often rate PWG matches highly, but you'll notice a progression over the last few years where I don't rate most of the matches anywhere near as highly as I did in 2011 because I've seen all this same sh*t before. The ones I've rated the highest were matches that either had good storylines going into them (Joey & Candice vs. Bucks) or told a slightly unusual story (Cole vs. Sami).
i guess this is normal, i have progressively disliked some promotions that i liked before, and vice versa. Yet the quality of each of those products may have not necessarily changed, it was just us.

5. PWG is not a "smart" product like ECW was. It doesn't do anything new or blur new lines or try to make you look at wrestling differently. It is the equivalent of the late-90's, early 2000's ECW rip-offs, but instead of the hardcore style, they are ripping of the spotfest "scramble" matches that you used to see in the early 2000's in Jersey All-Pro and ROH.
I'm not gonna compare PWG and ECW because they're different things, but if you don't see the uniqueness in PWG, then i can now completely understand why you don't like it. PWG makes wrestling fun, something that not everyone (not wwe, not tna, not roh, not chikara, not njpw, maybe ddt, not aaa or cmll or czw) achieves.

6. ROH actually has a great track record of striking while the iron is hot. The only time they really didn't was Tyler Black, which everyone remembers because of just how big a blunder it was.
The only well executed title change in the last years was Steen. Davey and Elgin were late, Roddy, Eddie, Briscoe 2X, all title reigns that don't seem wrong because they were somewhat surprises, but none of those where build up to. Late on giving the titles to ANX, late on using Generico after he became the indie god, even killing off SCUM came at a point where I just didn't care anymore.

7. You're not being invested in the angles in ROH is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course you won't be invested in the angles if you don't watch the shows.
Whereas with PWG, can you really tell me you remember what Rich Swan or AR Fox did at a particular show? What has Brian Cage done that has mattered in any way in years? or Ciampa? Or Elgin?
Of course i do, it's the promotion i follow the most. But just to counter this, I don't watch WWE, i don't watch NxT, and yet i follow and (while they annoy me) i'm invested in the storylines. ROH i read what's happening because i like to stay up to date with promotions, but there is not a single show/match/segment that i'm like "shit, i gotta watch this"

8. The contracts in question are exclusive contracts for guys that also get a regular salary from the promotion, just like WWE and TNA do. The only guys who have them are Elgin, reDRagon, Cole, the Briscoes and possibly Jay Lethal. ROH also runs two weekends a month pretty much every month (if you count the UK shows, they are running FOUR in November), so it really isn't that much more that ROH would have to pay these guys than they are already paying them.
Well hopefully those are the only guys they pull. I should look up people's reactions to when TNA pulled everyone from ROH.

9. I never said that PWG was wrong to do it. I just explained why PWG's actions might influence ROH to act the way they seemingly have. I also never said that ROH didn't take other people's ideas (although when ROH has stolen a feud in the past, they tend to do it after that feud have finished in another promotion, which is why it often doesn't work for ROH).

10. No one wants to go to WWE just to be in NXT, and once you make it to the big roster, your time and freedom of style are incredibly restricted.
well no obviously no, but even then, if there is something that i can't bash on WWE is that their overall match quality has increased thanks to giving them more time and some guys' work is not that different from what you would see on the independent circuit

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote: F*CK! I just spent about two hours writing a reply to this and then timed out so I lost it all and I really don't want to type it over again, so here are the highlights that I can remember:

1. The idea that PWG has gained more fans than ROH in the past few years is utterly laughable. There is not a single city in the world that they would outdraw ROH in. Maybe they'd do the same number in some indy hotbeds like NY or Chicago or Philly, but there is no way in hell PWG would outdraw ROH anywhere else.
you underestamate what a small company that only puts out DVDs has achieved in the last years. Thremendous III was a turning point for them. They sell around 500 tickets to the legion hall shows and people still get left outside. I'm not saying that they would outsell ROH everywhere, but bring PWG to the eastcoast fans and they would go crazy over it. ROH however, i'm sure that just like me or YCW, got tired of ROH and their booking.
Yes. People would enjoy it, and there are people who watch PWG but not other indies. But the idea that they hae made for fans than ROH has in the past few years is utterly silly. ROH has opened up EIGHT successful new markets in the past three years, and feel confident enough in their TV numbers that they are trying a bunch more in early 2015. Now average that across every major or even medium-size market they are in. I can ASSURE you that that number of fans alone is more new fans than PWG has made in the past few years

2. When you say that ROH hasn't delivered any dream matches aside from the NJPW shows, you are forgetting YEARS worth of history. If you really want me to list them again, I will. Most importantly, though, most ROH's dream matches involve one of more parties that ROH themselves elevated to the level that they can have something would be called a "dream match."
this is gonna be hard to debate since you'll consider some matches more of a dream match than i do, to me i can't remember one since Briscoes vs WGTT. Yeah, Bucks vs Briscoes or Bad Influence vs Briscoes could be 'dreamy' but they would have happened sooner or later in ROH or somewhere else.
Okay. How about the following:
Joe vs. Kobashi
Joe vs. Morishima
MCMG vs. Briscoes
Generico vs. Ibushi
AJ vs. CIMA
Dragon vs. Lance Storm
Dragon vs. KENTA
Aries vs. KENTA
Roddy vs. KENTA
Low Ki vs. KENTA
KoW vs. WGTT
KoW vs. Wolves
WGTT vs. Wolves
LAX vs. KoW
LAX vs. Briscoes
Dragon vs. Doug Williams
Homicide vs. Kojima (back when both guys were at the height of their work
Colt Cabana vs. Kikutaro
ROH vs. CZW (just the concept was a "dream match" of a feud)
Christopher Daniels vs. Donovan Morgan (from what I have read, this was a huge deal back in 2002 when ROH did it)

And what dream matches has PWG given us that wouldn't have eventually happened elsewhere?

3. Storyline booking is at its best when you only run once a month because it is a lot easier for fans to follow the story.
not necessarily, it requires a whole lot of work to keep your fans up to date between dates and your fans paying attention to each time you put something out there. You can't just rely on doing all the storytelling at shows. With complex stories it's best to just have weekly product
Disagree. Lots of promotions have done a great job at storytelling without a weekly show. Jimmy Loves Lacey is a fantastic example of this.
4. Yes, I often rate PWG matches highly, but you'll notice a progression over the last few years where I don't rate most of the matches anywhere near as highly as I did in 2011 because I've seen all this same sh*t before. The ones I've rated the highest were matches that either had good storylines going into them (Joey & Candice vs. Bucks) or told a slightly unusual story (Cole vs. Sami).
i guess this is normal, i have progressively disliked some promotions that i liked before, and vice versa. Yet the quality of each of those products may have not necessarily changed, it was just us.

5. PWG is not a "smart" product like ECW was. It doesn't do anything new or blur new lines or try to make you look at wrestling differently. It is the equivalent of the late-90's, early 2000's ECW rip-offs, but instead of the hardcore style, they are ripping of the spotfest "scramble" matches that you used to see in the early 2000's in Jersey All-Pro and ROH.
I'm not gonna compare PWG and ECW because they're different things, but if you don't see the uniqueness in PWG, then i can now completely understand why you don't like it. PWG makes wrestling fun, something that not everyone (not wwe, not tna, not roh, not chikara, not njpw, maybe ddt, not aaa or cmll or czw) achieves.
I see a uniqueness, but that uniqueness wouldn't be there without the commentary, which is irrelevant to the matches. The commentary in PWG has been the same since way before PWG got so hot. They have their comedy matches just like everyone else does and their special chants just like everyone else does. PWG's are just more sexual.
6. ROH actually has a great track record of striking while the iron is hot. The only time they really didn't was Tyler Black, which everyone remembers because of just how big a blunder it was.
The only well executed title change in the last years was Steen. Davey and Elgin were late, Roddy, Eddie, Briscoe 2X, all title reigns that don't seem wrong because they were somewhat surprises, but none of those where build up to. Late on giving the titles to ANX, late on using Generico after he became the indie god, even killing off SCUM came at a point where I just didn't care anymore.
The timing on Davey was great. The timing Elgin was getting late, but I thought it was still fine. If they had given the belt to Elgin any earlier, it would have killed off Davey's reign (and then Steen's wouldn't have worked because Steen had to beat Davey) or it would have cut Cole's reign off. I guess they could have had Elgin win it from Steen then have Cole take it from Elgin (I actually would have preferred this).
Eddie's reign WAS perfectly timed for the story with him and Davey, and it did a great job of capping of his feud with Daniels. It was Eddie winning the title when his propensity for working through crazy injuries was still fresh in everyone's mind (this was the title shot he got from winning SOTF 2010, where he got injured but worked through it), and it was in New York, where he worked the ladder match with a broken arm.
As for other things: they waited the perfect amount of time before pulling the trigger on Roddy vs. Elgin, on booking Davey vs. Daniels, on finally booking the Davey-Kyle singles match, and on pacing out the Steen return angle.
You need to refresh your memory on Roddy's title reign because that was not only built up to perfectly (along with his heel turn, and the need for Terry Funk as the referee), but it was nothing even resembling a surprise (we all knew Tyler was leaving). He had started to turn heel because of it
They WERE using Generico when he started to become an indy God. That all started with the Steen feud. They didn't use him much in 2012 due to contract issues.


7. You're not being invested in the angles in ROH is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course you won't be invested in the angles if you don't watch the shows.
Whereas with PWG, can you really tell me you remember what Rich Swan or AR Fox did at a particular show? What has Brian Cage done that has mattered in any way in years? or Ciampa? Or Elgin?
Of course i do, it's the promotion i follow the most. But just to counter this, I don't watch WWE, i don't watch NxT, and yet i follow and (while they annoy me) i'm invested in the storylines. ROH i read what's happening because i like to stay up to date with promotions, but there is not a single show/match/segment that i'm like "shit, i gotta watch this"
Have you been watching the TV show? AJ vs. Kyle? Kyle vs. Elgin? Any of the Bucks vs. reDRagon matches? Ciampa snapping and attacking BOBBY CRUISE? None of that has appealed to you?
8. The contracts in question are exclusive contracts for guys that also get a regular salary from the promotion, just like WWE and TNA do. The only guys who have them are Elgin, reDRagon, Cole, the Briscoes and possibly Jay Lethal. ROH also runs two weekends a month pretty much every month (if you count the UK shows, they are running FOUR in November), so it really isn't that much more that ROH would have to pay these guys than they are already paying them.
Well hopefully those are the only guys they pull. I should look up people's reactions to when TNA pulled everyone from ROH.
If I remember correctly (I used to peruse the backlogs of the old official ROH forum because you weren't allowed to sign up for years and years, so I actually got to read a lot of first-hand reactions to stuff like the Summer of Punk, Aries beating Joe, the ROH-CZW feud, the AOTF debut, etc.) they 100% understood it. They knew that ROH still had Dragon and Nigel and Morishima and Roddy and Hero and Claudio and Sydal the Briscoes, and they immediately started speculating whether guys like Davey Richards or Erick Stevens or Jigsaw would step up to fill those spots, or if Gabe would go brings guys in Tyler Black and Human Tornado
9. I never said that PWG was wrong to do it. I just explained why PWG's actions might influence ROH to act the way they seemingly have. I also never said that ROH didn't take other people's ideas (although when ROH has stolen a feud in the past, they tend to do it after that feud have finished in another promotion, which is why it often doesn't work for ROH).

10. No one wants to go to WWE just to be in NXT, and once you make it to the big roster, your time and freedom of style are incredibly restricted.
well no obviously no, but even then, if there is something that i can't bash on WWE is that their overall match quality has increased thanks to giving them more time and some guys' work is not that different from what you would see on the independent circuit

Big Red Machine wrote: F*CK! I just spent about two hours writing a reply to this and then timed out so I lost it all and I really don't want to type it over again, so here are the highlights that I can remember:

1. The idea that PWG has gained more fans than ROH in the past few years is utterly laughable. There is not a single city in the world that they would outdraw ROH in. Maybe they'd do the same number in some indy hotbeds like NY or Chicago or Philly, but there is no way in hell PWG would outdraw ROH anywhere else.
you underestamate what a small company that only puts out DVDs has achieved in the last years. Thremendous III was a turning point for them. They sell around 500 tickets to the legion hall shows and people still get left outside. I'm not saying that they would outsell ROH everywhere, but bring PWG to the eastcoast fans and they would go crazy over it. ROH however, i'm sure that just like me or YCW, got tired of ROH and their booking.
Yes. People would enjoy it, and there are people who watch PWG but not other indies. But the idea that they hae made for fans than ROH has in the past few years is utterly silly. ROH has opened up EIGHT successful new markets in the past three years, and feel confident enough in their TV numbers that they are trying a bunch more in early 2015. Now average that across every major or even medium-size market they are in. I can ASSURE you that that number of fans alone is more new fans than PWG has made in the past few years
You can't compare markets because PWG doesn't travel and you underestimate what that small promotion that only puts out DVDs has done in the last years. Of course ROH has new fans, it would be a failure if with all the PPVs, traveling, tv shows, etc etc they wouldn't get new fans, but if put in perspective between effort and new fans, i'm sure PWG is pretty well covered.

2. When you say that ROH hasn't delivered any dream matches aside from the NJPW shows, you are forgetting YEARS worth of history. If you really want me to list them again, I will. Most importantly, though, most ROH's dream matches involve one of more parties that ROH themselves elevated to the level that they can have something would be called a "dream match."
this is gonna be hard to debate since you'll consider some matches more of a dream match than i do, to me i can't remember one since Briscoes vs WGTT. Yeah, Bucks vs Briscoes or Bad Influence vs Briscoes could be 'dreamy' but they would have happened sooner or later in ROH or somewhere else.
Okay. How about the following:
Joe vs. Kobashi
Joe vs. Morishima
MCMG vs. Briscoes
Generico vs. Ibushi
AJ vs. CIMA
Dragon vs. Lance Storm
Dragon vs. KENTA
Aries vs. KENTA
Roddy vs. KENTA
Low Ki vs. KENTA
KoW vs. WGTT
KoW vs. Wolves
WGTT vs. Wolves
LAX vs. KoW
LAX vs. Briscoes
Dragon vs. Doug Williams
Homicide vs. Kojima (back when both guys were at the height of their work
Colt Cabana vs. Kikutaro
ROH vs. CZW (just the concept was a "dream match" of a feud)
Christopher Daniels vs. Donovan Morgan (from what I have read, this was a huge deal back in 2002 when ROH did it)

And what dream matches has PWG given us that wouldn't have eventually happened elsewhere?
see what i'm saying? the last match was in 2011! it's been years since they did something considerably dreamy. At this point bringing in the Hooligans, Bucks, nor Bad Influence comes close to 'dream matches. And the thing is not that PWG is giving us matches that wouldn't happen somewhere else, but they sometimes give them out firsts. Look at the talent they brought for BOLA! Sabre vs Cole and O'Reilly? Omega vs (new) Ricochet. PWG gave us DojoBros, Best Friends, Candice and Joey, the F'n Machines, bunch of cool team ups and matches that PWG delivered before a lot of other promotions.

3. Storyline booking is at its best when you only run once a month because it is a lot easier for fans to follow the story.
not necessarily, it requires a whole lot of work to keep your fans up to date between dates and your fans paying attention to each time you put something out there. You can't just rely on doing all the storytelling at shows. With complex stories it's best to just have weekly product
Disagree. Lots of promotions have done a great job at storytelling without a weekly show. Jimmy Loves Lacey is a fantastic example of this.
i'm not saying it's impossible. And look at the crazy amount of extra content that had to be created in order to progress that Jacobs story. I'm sure that's the story with most extra content that ROH has ran.


5. PWG is not a "smart" product like ECW was. It doesn't do anything new or blur new lines or try to make you look at wrestling differently. It is the equivalent of the late-90's, early 2000's ECW rip-offs, but instead of the hardcore style, they are ripping of the spotfest "scramble" matches that you used to see in the early 2000's in Jersey All-Pro and ROH.
I'm not gonna compare PWG and ECW because they're different things, but if you don't see the uniqueness in PWG, then i can now completely understand why you don't like it. PWG makes wrestling fun, something that not everyone (not wwe, not tna, not roh, not chikara, not njpw, maybe ddt, not aaa or cmll or czw) achieves.
I see a uniqueness, but that uniqueness wouldn't be there without the commentary, which is irrelevant to the matches. The commentary in PWG has been the same since way before PWG got so hot. They have their comedy matches just like everyone else does and their special chants just like everyone else does. PWG's are just more sexual.
it's not only the commentary, it's the fans, the place, the fact that the wrestles actually wanna be there and have fun, a combination of some of the best talent in the country. ROH is like work, PWG is a weekend vacation.

6. ROH actually has a great track record of striking while the iron is hot. The only time they really didn't was Tyler Black, which everyone remembers because of just how big a blunder it was.
The only well executed title change in the last years was Steen. Davey and Elgin were late, Roddy, Eddie, Briscoe 2X, all title reigns that don't seem wrong because they were somewhat surprises, but none of those where build up to. Late on giving the titles to ANX, late on using Generico after he became the indie god, even killing off SCUM came at a point where I just didn't care anymore.
The timing on Davey was great. The timing Elgin was getting late, but I thought it was still fine. If they had given the belt to Elgin any earlier, it would have killed off Davey's reign (and then Steen's wouldn't have worked because Steen had to beat Davey) or it would have cut Cole's reign off. I guess they could have had Elgin win it from Steen then have Cole take it from Elgin (I actually would have preferred this).
Eddie's reign WAS perfectly timed for the story with him and Davey, and it did a great job of capping of his feud with Daniels. It was Eddie winning the title when his propensity for working through crazy injuries was still fresh in everyone's mind (this was the title shot he got from winning SOTF 2010, where he got injured but worked through it), and it was in New York, where he worked the ladder match with a broken arm.
As for other things: they waited the perfect amount of time before pulling the trigger on Roddy vs. Elgin, on booking Davey vs. Daniels, on finally booking the Davey-Kyle singles match, and on pacing out the Steen return angle.
You need to refresh your memory on Roddy's title reign because that was not only built up to perfectly (along with his heel turn, and the need for Terry Funk as the referee), but it was nothing even resembling a surprise (we all knew Tyler was leaving). He had started to turn heel because of it
They WERE using Generico when he started to become an indy God. That all started with the Steen feud. They didn't use him much in 2012 due to contract issues.
Davey was off like almost a year, he should have won it from Black as the last chance before he leaves. Elgin was fine but only because the tourny made it look like a big thing, he should have been the one to dethrone Cole. and I stand corrected, Cole's reign was perfect.
Eddie's win was out of nowhere and the real story with Davey started thanks to that, not as a build up. And Roddy's surely had a story, but not something that needed to end with a world title run, and it wasn't surprise because we knew Tyler was leaving, but only because of that.

7. You're not being invested in the angles in ROH is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course you won't be invested in the angles if you don't watch the shows.
Whereas with PWG, can you really tell me you remember what Rich Swan or AR Fox did at a particular show? What has Brian Cage done that has mattered in any way in years? or Ciampa? Or Elgin?
Of course i do, it's the promotion i follow the most. But just to counter this, I don't watch WWE, i don't watch NxT, and yet i follow and (while they annoy me) i'm invested in the storylines. ROH i read what's happening because i like to stay up to date with promotions, but there is not a single show/match/segment that i'm like "shit, i gotta watch this"
Have you been watching the TV show? AJ vs. Kyle? Kyle vs. Elgin? Any of the Bucks vs. reDRagon matches? Ciampa snapping and attacking BOBBY CRUISE? None of that has appealed to you?
it interest me as much as hearing that Ryback and Cesaro had a good match, i may or may not watch a recap, but that's it. Ciampa snapping at Cruise was ok, but it's Ciampa, i wasn't surprised or anything. I was more interested in Mike Bennett's bachelor party than any of their major shows.

8. The contracts in question are exclusive contracts for guys that also get a regular salary from the promotion, just like WWE and TNA do. The only guys who have them are Elgin, reDRagon, Cole, the Briscoes and possibly Jay Lethal. ROH also runs two weekends a month pretty much every month (if you count the UK shows, they are running FOUR in November), so it really isn't that much more that ROH would have to pay these guys than they are already paying them.
Well hopefully those are the only guys they pull. I should look up people's reactions to when TNA pulled everyone from ROH.
If I remember correctly (I used to peruse the backlogs of the old official ROH forum because you weren't allowed to sign up for years and years, so I actually got to read a lot of first-hand reactions to stuff like the Summer of Punk, Aries beating Joe, the ROH-CZW feud, the AOTF debut, etc.) they 100% understood it. They knew that ROH still had Dragon and Nigel and Morishima and Roddy and Hero and Claudio and Sydal the Briscoes, and they immediately started speculating whether guys like Davey Richards or Erick Stevens or Jigsaw would step up to fill those spots, or if Gabe would go brings guys in Tyler Black and Human Tornado
I guess it's not that different then. and for the record, i understand ROHs decision, i think it's a bit harsh, out of nowhere, and could have been better handled, but i get it.

cero2k wrote:

Big Red Machine wrote: F*CK! I just spent about two hours writing a reply to this and then timed out so I lost it all and I really don't want to type it over again, so here are the highlights that I can remember:

1. The idea that PWG has gained more fans than ROH in the past few years is utterly laughable. There is not a single city in the world that they would outdraw ROH in. Maybe they'd do the same number in some indy hotbeds like NY or Chicago or Philly, but there is no way in hell PWG would outdraw ROH anywhere else.
you underestamate what a small company that only puts out DVDs has achieved in the last years. Thremendous III was a turning point for them. They sell around 500 tickets to the legion hall shows and people still get left outside. I'm not saying that they would outsell ROH everywhere, but bring PWG to the eastcoast fans and they would go crazy over it. ROH however, i'm sure that just like me or YCW, got tired of ROH and their booking.
Yes. People would enjoy it, and there are people who watch PWG but not other indies. But the idea that they hae made for fans than ROH has in the past few years is utterly silly. ROH has opened up EIGHT successful new markets in the past three years, and feel confident enough in their TV numbers that they are trying a bunch more in early 2015. Now average that across every major or even medium-size market they are in. I can ASSURE you that that number of fans alone is more new fans than PWG has made in the past few years
You can't compare markets because PWG doesn't travel and you underestimate what that small promotion that only puts out DVDs has done in the last years. Of course ROH has new fans, it would be a failure if with all the PPVs, traveling, tv shows, etc etc they wouldn't get new fans, but if put in perspective between effort and new fans, i'm sure PWG is pretty well covered.
I'm not trying to compare markets. I'm talking sheer numbers. My point is that in the last few years, ROH has opened up EIGHT successful new markets. Successful meaning that they have drawn at least 500 or so their most recent time there, and there has been a progressive rise in the number of fans at the shows each time they came to the market. And that is just eight cities that ROH recently became more accessible in. If we assume that most of the other markets ROH has recently become more accessable in have had a simialr (or even HALF the amount of growth), then there is absolutely no way that PWG has gotten more fans than that. We're talking the TENS OF THOUSANDS. Do you really think PWG has made TENS OF THOUSANDS of news fans in the past few years?
2. When you say that ROH hasn't delivered any dream matches aside from the NJPW shows, you are forgetting YEARS worth of history. If you really want me to list them again, I will. Most importantly, though, most ROH's dream matches involve one of more parties that ROH themselves elevated to the level that they can have something would be called a "dream match."
this is gonna be hard to debate since you'll consider some matches more of a dream match than i do, to me i can't remember one since Briscoes vs WGTT. Yeah, Bucks vs Briscoes or Bad Influence vs Briscoes could be 'dreamy' but they would have happened sooner or later in ROH or somewhere else.
Okay. How about the following:
Joe vs. Kobashi
Joe vs. Morishima
MCMG vs. Briscoes
Generico vs. Ibushi
AJ vs. CIMA
Dragon vs. Lance Storm
Dragon vs. KENTA
Aries vs. KENTA
Roddy vs. KENTA
Low Ki vs. KENTA
KoW vs. WGTT
KoW vs. Wolves
WGTT vs. Wolves
LAX vs. KoW
LAX vs. Briscoes
Dragon vs. Doug Williams
Homicide vs. Kojima (back when both guys were at the height of their work
Colt Cabana vs. Kikutaro
ROH vs. CZW (just the concept was a "dream match" of a feud)
Christopher Daniels vs. Donovan Morgan (from what I have read, this was a huge deal back in 2002 when ROH did it)

And what dream matches has PWG given us that wouldn't have eventually happened elsewhere?
see what i'm saying? the last match was in 2011! it's been years since they did something considerably dreamy. At this point bringing in the Hooligans, Bucks, nor Bad Influence comes close to 'dream matches. And the thing is not that PWG is giving us matches that wouldn't happen somewhere else, but they sometimes give them out firsts. Look at the talent they brought for BOLA! Sabre vs Cole and O'Reilly? Omega vs (new) Ricochet. PWG gave us DojoBros, Best Friends, Candice and Joey, the F'n Machines, bunch of cool team ups and matches that PWG delivered before a lot of other promotions.
OH COME ON! You can't possibly just be defining random, tossed together tag matches like the F'n Machines vs. Best Friends as a dream match!
You want form form after 2011 (assuming you want to ignore Steen vs. Nakamura?) How about Eddie Edwards vs. Taiji Ishimori? Or AJ Styles vs. Adam Cole? Look. I LOVE Wrestling's Cutest Tag Team, but there is not a single match in the world for them that I would even consider to be CLOSE to a "dream match."
I'll you the Zack Sabre Jr. matches. I'll give you Dojo Bros vs. Future Shock. I'll give you some various flippy combination of AR Fox, Rich Swann, and Ricochet (assuming Gabe didn't get to it first). I'll even help you out a little and give you El Generico vs. Dick Togo, Joe vs. Super Dragon, and Punk vs. Super Dragon, and Davey vs, Low Ki (Davey wasn't quite big enough at the time, but he was at the point where everyone was anxiously awaiting for that match to be something awesome). That's it (unless there are some Dragon Gate guy dream matches I am missing). That's nowhere near ROH's list. And furthermore, ROH's list mostly includes guys THEY helped make. Austin Aries vs. KENTA wouldn't have meant sh*t in 2004. But by 2006, ROH had elevated Aries to the level where it was a dream match. Same with Roddy. Same with Nigel. Same with Joe. Same with Homicide. Same with Eddie Edwards Arguably the same with Davey and Claudio, the Wolves, reDRagon, Kyle as a singles guy... I could go on and on. PWG usually just takes guys who made their names elsewhere and throws them together (and often they are the ones who get to do this because ROH and Gabe won't work together or because Dragon Gate and New Japan don't work together).
Also, if you want to ignore Steen vs. Nakamura, you should ignore the Zack Sabre Jr. matches, too, because he's not a regular

3. Storyline booking is at its best when you only run once a month because it is a lot easier for fans to follow the story.
not necessarily, it requires a whole lot of work to keep your fans up to date between dates and your fans paying attention to each time you put something out there. You can't just rely on doing all the storytelling at shows. With complex stories it's best to just have weekly product
Disagree. Lots of promotions have done a great job at storytelling without a weekly show. Jimmy Loves Lacey is a fantastic example of this.
i'm not saying it's impossible. And look at the crazy amount of extra content that had to be created in order to progress that Jacobs story. I'm sure that's the story with most extra content that ROH has ran.
What extra content? Two Youtube "music videos," a few short video-wire promos, and four short vingettes of their dates for the epilogue? That's not much extra effort at all. Aside from those, everything you needed was right there on the DVDs, in the matches or backstage segments, and they made it so that you really didn't even need to buy every DVD. They would do something on the first weekend of the month that would introduce the new advancement in the story (like the revelation that Lacey is banging Cabana, or Cabana starting to feel bad about the way he and Lacey have been treating Jacobs) and then on the second weekend of the month (usually the Saturday show) they would do advance the angle again to set up the next month (like Cabana trying to get Lacey to treat Jimmy better, Lacey refusing, Cabana trying to convince Jimmy that Lacey is a terrible person and Jacobs turning on Cabana).



5. PWG is not a "smart" product like ECW was. It doesn't do anything new or blur new lines or try to make you look at wrestling differently. It is the equivalent of the late-90's, early 2000's ECW rip-offs, but instead of the hardcore style, they are ripping of the spotfest "scramble" matches that you used to see in the early 2000's in Jersey All-Pro and ROH.
I'm not gonna compare PWG and ECW because they're different things, but if you don't see the uniqueness in PWG, then i can now completely understand why you don't like it. PWG makes wrestling fun, something that not everyone (not wwe, not tna, not roh, not chikara, not njpw, maybe ddt, not aaa or cmll or czw) achieves.
I see a uniqueness, but that uniqueness wouldn't be there without the commentary, which is irrelevant to the matches. The commentary in PWG has been the same since way before PWG got so hot. They have their comedy matches just like everyone else does and their special chants just like everyone else does. PWG's are just more sexual.
it's not only the commentary, it's the fans, the place, the fact that the wrestles actually wanna be there and have fun, a combination of some of the best talent in the country. ROH is like work, PWG is a weekend vacation.
The fans in CHIKARA are the same way. It's not unique. The "vacation" or total freedom to do what you want atmosphere was what Beyond Wrestling was founded on. it's not unique or even new. PWG just did it with more exposure

6. ROH actually has a great track record of striking while the iron is hot. The only time they really didn't was Tyler Black, which everyone remembers because of just how big a blunder it was.
The only well executed title change in the last years was Steen. Davey and Elgin were late, Roddy, Eddie, Briscoe 2X, all title reigns that don't seem wrong because they were somewhat surprises, but none of those where build up to. Late on giving the titles to ANX, late on using Generico after he became the indie god, even killing off SCUM came at a point where I just didn't care anymore.
The timing on Davey was great. The timing Elgin was getting late, but I thought it was still fine. If they had given the belt to Elgin any earlier, it would have killed off Davey's reign (and then Steen's wouldn't have worked because Steen had to beat Davey) or it would have cut Cole's reign off. I guess they could have had Elgin win it from Steen then have Cole take it from Elgin (I actually would have preferred this).
Eddie's reign WAS perfectly timed for the story with him and Davey, and it did a great job of capping of his feud with Daniels. It was Eddie winning the title when his propensity for working through crazy injuries was still fresh in everyone's mind (this was the title shot he got from winning SOTF 2010, where he got injured but worked through it), and it was in New York, where he worked the ladder match with a broken arm.
As for other things: they waited the perfect amount of time before pulling the trigger on Roddy vs. Elgin, on booking Davey vs. Daniels, on finally booking the Davey-Kyle singles match, and on pacing out the Steen return angle.
You need to refresh your memory on Roddy's title reign because that was not only built up to perfectly (along with his heel turn, and the need for Terry Funk as the referee), but it was nothing even resembling a surprise (we all knew Tyler was leaving). He had started to turn heel because of it
They WERE using Generico when he started to become an indy God. That all started with the Steen feud. They didn't use him much in 2012 due to contract issues.
Davey was off like almost a year, he should have won it from Black as the last chance before he leaves. Elgin was fine but only because the tourny made it look like a big thing, he should have been the one to dethrone Cole. and I stand corrected, Cole's reign was perfect.
Eddie's win was out of nowhere and the real story with Davey started thanks to that, not as a build up. And Roddy's surely had a story, but not something that needed to end with a world title run, and it wasn't surprise because we knew Tyler was leaving, but only because of that.
Would it have been BETTER for Davey to win it from Tyler? Yes... but at that time, Davey was a) splitting time with New Japan, and b) thought he was going to be retiring at the end of the year. Ideally they would have done what Gabe was planning on doing and had Tyler beat Nigel at Final Battle 2008, then had Davey beat Tyler some time in later 2009 or 2010.
The buildup to Eddie's win (and feud with Davey started in early 2010, when Eddie beat Davey in the Finals of the TV Title Tournament. That set the pace for everything: Davey was the "chosen one" but Eddie kept winning things before Davey did. A singles title. SOTF. And finally, Eddie won the world title over Davey's long-time rival, and the guy who everyone figured Davey would be at Final Battle 2010, but Davey couldn't get the job done.
Sometimes the build to a match begins before you realize it. Tyler Black lost all three of his singles matches against Bryan Danielson in 2008. Why? Because Gabe was planning on booking a title defense against Dragon early in Tyler's reign, with the hook being the Dragon was 3-0 against Tyler.
Of course Roddy's story had to end in a world title win. If he didn't win the title, what reason does he have to stick with Truth Martini? Truth promised in a world title, and Truth delivered where Roddy on his own failed. If he doesn't win the title, what are you going to do? Feud Roddy against Josh Raymond and Christian Able, an undercard tag team? (Remember Elgin wasn't in the company yet)
The three ref bumps in the world title match at Supercard of Honor V build up the need for Funk's role as special enforcer in the match where Roddy won the title.

7. You're not being invested in the angles in ROH is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course you won't be invested in the angles if you don't watch the shows.
Whereas with PWG, can you really tell me you remember what Rich Swan or AR Fox did at a particular show? What has Brian Cage done that has mattered in any way in years? or Ciampa? Or Elgin?
Of course i do, it's the promotion i follow the most. But just to counter this, I don't watch WWE, i don't watch NxT, and yet i follow and (while they annoy me) i'm invested in the storylines. ROH i read what's happening because i like to stay up to date with promotions, but there is not a single show/match/segment that i'm like "shit, i gotta watch this"
Have you been watching the TV show? AJ vs. Kyle? Kyle vs. Elgin? Any of the Bucks vs. reDRagon matches? Ciampa snapping and attacking BOBBY CRUISE? None of that has appealed to you?
it interest me as much as hearing that Ryback and Cesaro had a good match, i may or may not watch a recap, but that's it. Ciampa snapping at Cruise was ok, but it's Ciampa, i wasn't surprised or anything. I was more interested in Mike Bennett's bachelor party than any of their major shows.
Because it's a "PWG-style" show?
8. The contracts in question are exclusive contracts for guys that also get a regular salary from the promotion, just like WWE and TNA do. The only guys who have them are Elgin, reDRagon, Cole, the Briscoes and possibly Jay Lethal. ROH also runs two weekends a month pretty much every month (if you count the UK shows, they are running FOUR in November), so it really isn't that much more that ROH would have to pay these guys than they are already paying them.
Well hopefully those are the only guys they pull. I should look up people's reactions to when TNA pulled everyone from ROH.
If I remember correctly (I used to peruse the backlogs of the old official ROH forum because you weren't allowed to sign up for years and years, so I actually got to read a lot of first-hand reactions to stuff like the Summer of Punk, Aries beating Joe, the ROH-CZW feud, the AOTF debut, etc.) they 100% understood it. They knew that ROH still had Dragon and Nigel and Morishima and Roddy and Hero and Claudio and Sydal the Briscoes, and they immediately started speculating whether guys like Davey Richards or Erick Stevens or Jigsaw would step up to fill those spots, or if Gabe would go brings guys in Tyler Black and Human Tornado
I guess it's not that different then. and for the record, i understand ROHs decision, i think it's a bit harsh, out of nowhere, and could have been better handled, but i get it.
It's not out of nowhere, though (at least according to the Observer), though I'm sure the Elgin mess (or specifically PWG's part in booking him to lose to an undercard guy) played a big role in it) How else would you have liked ROH to handle it?