Cero Reviews AEW Double or Nothing 2021

[cero2k]

AEW Double or Nothing 2021
May 30, 2021
Jacksonville, FL

** The BUY IN **

NWA Women's Championship Match
Serena Deeb (C) vs Riho - 7.5/10
This being the first match that both women have had in front of people, plus this being the first match that a big crowd has watched in months in the US, they were surely going to start with a lot of noise and with love for everyone, so Deeb immediately established herself as the heel of the two, by slapping Riho after being offered a hand shake.

From there on, Deeb worked on Riho's back, later on her legs. Riho made a comeback and started going after the chest, building to her foot stomp arsenal, but as she start doing them, her knee keeps hurting more and more, and while she manages to survive most of Deeb's attacks, with counters or blocks, Deeb keeps going for Dragon Screws and taps her out with the Serenity Lock after smashing her knee on the mat over and over. Great pre-show match.

We got the first "This is awesome" chant here and I already miss empty arena shows.

Young Bucks vs Mox/Kingston Video Package - Awesome. Loved the promos from Mox and Kingston, but also loved that the Bucks didn't lie at all, that's been the Bucks forever.

** Main Show **

Brian Cage vs "Hangman" Adam Page - 7/10
Good pop for Page, dude is still over. Really good match, but it took a a while to hook me in (no pun intended). This was for the most part a back and forward, big guy versus lesser big guy, so they did some spots with Cage overpowering Page and slamming him left and right, and it was all going good until Cage got cocky and went for a Buckshot, but failed the landing and in that one second stumble, Page got him

Not only for rejecting Hook and Starks's help, but because he threw away the title, I think Cage is close to being done with Team Taz.

AEW Tag Team Championship Match
The Young Bucks (C) (w/Brandon Cutler) vs Jon Moxley & Eddie Kingston - 7.5/10
I understand Ross and Schiavone not knowing that the Bucks haven't changed, but Excalibur should know better that this has always been the Bucks, they just have more money. Nick Jackson has gone full Michael Hayes.

Really good match, but I thought it went longer than it needed to be, it started really strong, and it ended really strong, but there was a lot in the middle with the Good Brothers and Moxley getting juice that I thought were unnecessary for the sake of the match. Match was mostly building Mox as the babyface in peril after being busted open, build to the Kingston comeback, and into some really good stuff towards the end. Finish saw the Bucks win with 5 BTE Triggers.

Casino Royale Match - 4.5/10
Prior to the match, they announced that QT Marshall was replaced by Aaron Solow due to injury, as well as The Blade, being replaced by Serpentico.

Match was kinda meh, the participants this year were kinda underwhelming. A lot of tag teams in a single's battle royale for my liking, especially since there is a tag team BR in the promotion too. I don't mind when they come out separately and happened to get together in the ring, but the Varsity Blondes straight up came out together. This whole thing was saved by the final two, Christian and Jungle Jack had a great exchange that made Jungle Jack look strong as the winner.

Aside from having some people that are feuding facing each other, there were really no relevant spots other than Comoroto taking out Rhodes with a cow bell shot.

The Joker surprise was Lio Rush, who is a good addition to the roster. While he is the proper level of stardom for this type of match, I think people will be underwhelmed because, well, it's just Lio Rush.

Animals on AEW - AEW can't help themselves, can they ever stop having animals on shows? This was followed by some 'Merica doing 'Merica things. And of course, they follow the 'Merica propaganda with...

Anthony Ogogo (w/QT Marshall) vs Cody Rhodes (w/Arn Anderson) - 4/10
I may had been as good as it could get, but I did think that because Cody is so one dimensional, it didn't allow to tell the story that should had been told. This should had been a match with a technical Cody trying to take out Ogogo's arm, while managing to dodge most of the punches; instead, what we got was Cody jerking himself in front of a mirror, taking all of Ogogo's punches, surviving them, not working on a single thing, and winning the match with a vertebreaker of all things. This idea that Cody turned the match into a 'wrestling' match was bullshit, turning into a 'wrestling' match would had seen Cody dissecting a limb. He turned it into some Sports Entertainment crap.

Ogogo is still green and growing, and shouldn't have won, especially in a properly layed out match, but QT Marshall, more than Ogogo, NEEDED that win. But Cody gotta Cody because it's 'Merica day.

Was it really that much to ask that Cody worked the arm all match and won by submission?

TNT Championship Match
Miro (C) vs "Murderhawk" Lance Archer - 7/10
Prior to the match, we were told that Jake Roberts had been taken out by Miro the day before, and thus wasn't out there with Archer to begin the match.

I really liked the idea of the match, they tried to have a hoss fight, but there was waay to much selling for the amount of time they got. Two beasts their size shouldn't get laid out so quickly, even when it comes by a similar sized beast. They need to watch some Dylan James vs Yuji Okabayashi if they wanna have a hoss fight.
Match ended by referee decision when Miro got a rear naked choke on Archer.

ALL OUT Announcement - They're going back to Chicago on Labor Day Weekend.

AEW Women's Championship Match
Hikaru Shida (C) vs Britt Baker D.M.D. (w/Rebel) - 7.5/10
Arguably the best match of the night so far. This was heated and it followed good back and forward action, with smart focus by both wrestlers. There hasn't been much limb focus in most of tonight's matches, so seeing Shida and Baker have a certain move they were working towards too was refreshing. Shida chased the TAMASHII while also trying to go after Baker's legs for a submission; on the other hand, Baker chased the Lockjaw throughout the match, eventually locking it in for the submission win.

The title change was quite predictable, but there was a point the match made me wonder, right after Rebel had been kicked out from ringside and Shida got a couple of strong near falls.

There was a spot where Rebel accidentally hit Baker with her crutch, right in front of the referee. I think a lot of people will complain about this, but given that it was Rebel on Baker, I think that referee discretion is a valid reason for the lack of DQ. I thought the finish with the title belt was way worse in terms of referee not making sure he wasn't looking.

Ethan Page & Scorpio Sky vs Sting & Darby Allin - 5/10
First minutes into the match, even before the bell was rung, all four men brawled outside the ring, setting up some spots for Sting to show that he was healthy enough for the match, taking a suplex on the ramp, doing a plancha off the stage, and a couple more spots. From that point on, this match the 'You Still Got It" match.

The match itself was pretty basic, it was a heat on Allin, Sting hot tag cycle until the finish with Sting getting a Scorpion Death Drop on Sky for the win. Beyond that, there was nothing here, just a bunch of Darby bumps and Sting showing "He Still Had It".

It's kinda dumb that in tag matches, if Allin is taken out outside the ring, an Australian tag is not legal if the partner is eligible to continue.

Nostalgia!!!

AEW World Championship Match
Kenny Omega (C) (w/Don Callis) vs Orange Cassidy (w/The Best Friends) vs "The Bastard" PAC - 8/10
AEW fucked up and made their multi-person matches into no DQs and count outs and to a single fall, it adds a lot of near fall drama, but I just prefer eliminations.

People singing to Jericho's shitty music, but not to Pixie's Where is my mind rubs me the wrong way. Omega came out wearing all his championships, Impact, TNA, AAA, and AEW Championships.

Good match, but it had way to many unnecessary low blows and belt shots. The action was great, everyone had their part and style and seeing the mix was great. The pacing of the match good for the most part, there were a couple of points where it felt like nothing was happening, but all three men are great at what they do, and so they kept bringing you back.

The match eventually led to a lot of shenanigans to give both PAC and OC near falls, but Omega kept getting saved by either Callis, or the referee getting taken out, or such. It was all legal, but it was all unnecessary, as were all the belt shots from Omega and the low blows from OC, and that's when the match felt it had overstayed it's welcome. Not because it had gone long, but because you only needed one of those spots for the finish. And for that matter, the finish was just a Crucifix pin reversal, super anticlimactic.

Omega has better title matches on Impact and AAA, than AEW.

Full Gear Announcement - Taking place in St. Louis on November 6.

Rampage Announcement - Tony Schianove announced that Mark Henry as the new coach and analyst for the new Rampage show. 5 second debut for Henry before being sent to the back.

Stadium Stampede
The Pinnacle (MJF, Shawn Spears, Dax Hardwood, Cash Wheeler, & WARDLOW) (w/Tully Blanchard) The Inner Circle (Chris Jericho, Santana, Ortiz, Sammy Guevara, & Jake Hager) - 9.5/10
TIC made their entrance via rappelling, that looks impressive, but in reality, really slow when you're trained and accustomed to it. MJF made his entrance in a limo, while the rest entered in FTR's truck.

This is a weird situation with this match, I thought it was better than the first Stampede match, but given that it wasn't as unique anymore, I had a point of reference for many things, I don't feel it makes the perfect 10 that I gave the previous match, which had the benefit of being a new thing.

The match was far better organized this time around, they didn't waste a lot of time around the field, they had a couple of spots and took it straight to the back. There were 4 natural pair ups and there was no reason to mix them up anymore. Jericho and MJF fought around some office with some people who I think sport fans will care for, I didn't. The Hager vs WARDLOW stuff was awesome, it felt like a real brawl, it was violent. The FTR vs LAX stuff was a bar brawl, with a really violent nature to it, they were using a lot of weapons, that you would 100% see in a shoot bar fight, from flails to just breaking beer bottles on each other, a lot of chaos in this club area of the stadium. Konnan and Tully got cameos. And finally, Spears and Guevara, who had a great fight, my second favorite, among a lot of hardware, kinda like a warehouse area of the stadium where they store all the chairs and stuff.

They kinda went back and forward with certain brawls, but the whole thing really revolved around Jericho vs MJF, and Guevara vs Spears, with the latter being the most important, as this whole thing worked as Guevara's big redemption song, with him being the one that lost last year's Stadium, being the one that had been MJF's biggest rival throughout last year, and him being the one that gave up at B&G, it was now him that kept fighting to the end, bringing the match to the ring with Spear, making a comeback from some hellish chair shots, and getting the win with a 630 splash.

Coming in to this match, I was wondering how they would do this match with a live crowd, and I think they did it as smartly as they could, having the match start in the stadium, and then work backwards into the venue, to end the match there, but still have the whole stadium set up to make us believe that things would be more like last year's.

Post-match - The rest of TIC joined up with Guevara in the ring and celebrated together, and for the first time in a long time, Jericho was able to get his ego struck by a bunch of fans singing his song.

OVERALL THOUGHTS
Good show overall, even if I was close to calling it a one match show. It had a couple of lows right there in the middle when AEW tried to be 'patriotic' and get some nostalgia crap in. I did think that this show needed some cliffhangers or surprises, as the show ended, I didn't find myself in a "can't wait" situation for the fallout Dynamite episode.

[Big Red Machine]

Wow... you liked this show A LOT less than I did.

[Thelone]

Most of the build-up was pretty poor and didn't make you feel like you were going to have surprising outcomes. There's a big difference between predictable and obvious : the former could be enhanced with nearfalls and some smoke and mirrors, the latter will be hurt with those because... well, it's obvious who's winning no matter how many nearfalls and overbooking you put in there. No one believed that Braun Archer had a chance of beating Miro, or that Shida was going to retain (even with a double turn), or that neither PAC or Cassidy was going to upset Omega. Of course, I'm not asking for dumb SWERVES and Russo booking, but they need to keep the idea of an upset alive during the build-up. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's another one of those things that's being lost with modern wrestling because they only care about "stealing the show" and getting five stars from Uncle Dave.

They need to dump those Casino Battle Royales as well, because you're always going to have fans expecting a big name to be the joker, then be disappointed when it's just Matt Sydal or Lio Rush.

[cero2k]

Wow... you liked this show A LOT less than I did.

You're biased agai.......oh wait.....

[cero2k]

Most of the build-up was pretty poor and didn't make you feel like you were going to have surprising outcomes. There's a big difference between predictable and obvious : the former could be enhanced with nearfalls and some smoke and mirrors, the latter will be hurt with those because... well, it's obvious who's winning no matter how many nearfalls and overbooking you put in there. No one believed that Braun Archer had a chance of beating Miro, or that Shida was going to retain (even with a double turn), or that neither PAC or Cassidy was going to upset Omega. Of course, I'm not asking for dumb SWERVES and Russo booking, but they need to keep the idea of an upset alive during the build-up. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's another one of those things that's being lost with modern wrestling because they only care about "stealing the show" and getting five stars from Uncle Dave.

They need to dump those Casino Battle Royales as well, because you're always going to have fans expecting a big name to be the joker, then be disappointed when it's just Matt Sydal or Lio Rush.

I had some of that problem, I wasn't really invested in most of the matches, hence why I was close to calling this a one match show, or why I actually wanted the casino royale match. Even some of the matches that I was looking forward to watching for the workrate, they didn't deliver. The 3-way was turned into a WWE rules match, Ogogo vs Cody wasn't what it should had been, Sting match was a Sting nostalgia show that I won't need to see again, probably ever, and Miro vs Archer should had been a Dynamite main event with less animal cruelty. I don't usually mind predictable wins/loses, it means that they're using some sort of logic, but the story leading to the finish has to be appealing.

As for the casino match, my big problem is that it's now come down to one surprise and a lot of nothing. I don't mind the Lio Rush/Matt Sydal level debut, anyone expecting Bryan Danielson needs a reality slap on the face, you don't debut a big name like that, until you do because we're accustomed to the Lio Rushes. My problem is that the match doesn't have any other surprises, everyone is pre-announced and it's filled out with Serpenticos and Dustin Rhodes. I rather they remove a bunch of matches from the card, give this one time to have the participants have spots and angles, and build a bunch of stuff towards the next 2-3 months.

[Big Red Machine]

Most of the build-up was pretty poor and didn't make you feel like you were going to have surprising outcomes. There's a big difference between predictable and obvious : the former could be enhanced with nearfalls and some smoke and mirrors, the latter will be hurt with those because... well, it's obvious who's winning no matter how many nearfalls and overbooking you put in there. No one believed that Braun Archer had a chance of beating Miro, or that Shida was going to retain (even with a double turn), or that neither PAC or Cassidy was going to upset Omega. Of course, I'm not asking for dumb SWERVES and Russo booking, but they need to keep the idea of an upset alive during the build-up. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's another one of those things that's being lost with modern wrestling because they only care about "stealing the show" and getting five stars from Uncle Dave.

They need to dump those Casino Battle Royales as well, because you're always going to have fans expecting a big name to be the joker, then be disappointed when it's just Matt Sydal or Lio Rush.

I had some of that problem, I wasn't really invested in most of the matches, hence why I was close to calling this a one match show, or why I actually wanted the casino royale match. Even some of the matches that I was looking forward to watching for the workrate, they didn't deliver. The 3-way was turned into a WWE rules match, Ogogo vs Cody wasn't what it should had been, Sting match was a Sting nostalgia show that I won't need to see again, probably ever, and Miro vs Archer should had been a Dynamite main event with less animal cruelty. I don't usually mind predictable wins/loses, it means that they're using some sort of logic, but the story leading to the finish has to be appealing.

As for the casino match, my big problem is that it's now come down to one surprise and a lot of nothing. I don't mind the Lio Rush/Matt Sydal level debut, anyone expecting Bryan Danielson needs a reality slap on the face, you don't debut a big name like that, until you do because we're accustomed to the Lio Rushes. My problem is that the match doesn't have any other surprises, everyone is pre-announced and it's filled out with Serpenticos and Dustin Rhodes. I rather they remove a bunch of matches from the card, give this one time to have the participants have spots and angles, and build a bunch of stuff towards the next 2-3 months.

I don't think there is anything terribly wrong with debuting a Dragon-level guy in the battle royale if you have him win in short order and he feels like the next challenger. They weren't going to be able to create that feeling due to how the world title match was booked... but we fans didn't know that at the time, so I don't think it's that out of line to be disappointed. Personally, with all of the names out there that they had to know people would be bandying about, I think the mistake was having a "surprise entrant" at all.

On the Sting match, I agree that we don't need to see it ever again, but, to me, the key word there is "again." We have now fulfilled that requirement, and I'd be perfectly happy if the dude retired, or if they limited him to cinematic matches or whatever.

I agree that the build-up of the storylines was the main failing, but I didn't hold that against the work-rate of the show (unless, like in the Cody match, the work felt like it directly contracted the storyline).

Also, on the animal cruelty thing, the person to blame here is Jake. He was going to sic the animal on Miro. Miro acted purely in self defense. Just had to get that out there.

[cero2k]

I don't think there is anything terribly wrong with debuting a Dragon-level guy in the battle royale if you have him win in short order and he feels like the next challenger. They weren't going to be able to create that feeling due to how the world title match was booked... but we fans didn't know that at the time, so I don't think it's that out of line to be disappointed. Personally, with all of the names out there that they had to know people would be bandying about, I think the mistake was having a "surprise entrant" at all.

On the Sting match, I agree that we don't need to see it ever again, but, to me, the key word there is "again." We have now fulfilled that requirement, and I'd be perfectly happy if the dude retired, or if they limited him to cinematic matches or whatever.

I agree that the build-up of the storylines was the main failing, but I didn't hold that against the work-rate of the show (unless, like in the Cody match, the work felt like it directly contracted the storyline).

Also, on the animal cruelty thing, the person to blame here is Jake. He was going to sic the animal on Miro. Miro acted purely in self defense. Just had to get that out there.

I think that's more on the fans that shat on the match because the surprise was Lio. They can totally debut someone big, and one day they should to keep the gimmick alive, but no one should be mad that once again, it was someone in the Sydal/Rush level.

I talked about it in the podcast (cheap plug), but I think the big failure is that everyone but the Joker is announced and it's always the surprise. I think they need to mix it up, have roster people fight for the Joker spot so we know who it is, but leave 3 spots unannounced for surprises, be them debuts, returns, or just people from the roster we didn't know.

[Big Red Machine]

I don't think there is anything terribly wrong with debuting a Dragon-level guy in the battle royale if you have him win in short order and he feels like the next challenger. They weren't going to be able to create that feeling due to how the world title match was booked... but we fans didn't know that at the time, so I don't think it's that out of line to be disappointed. Personally, with all of the names out there that they had to know people would be bandying about, I think the mistake was having a "surprise entrant" at all.

On the Sting match, I agree that we don't need to see it ever again, but, to me, the key word there is "again." We have now fulfilled that requirement, and I'd be perfectly happy if the dude retired, or if they limited him to cinematic matches or whatever.

I agree that the build-up of the storylines was the main failing, but I didn't hold that against the work-rate of the show (unless, like in the Cody match, the work felt like it directly contracted the storyline).

Also, on the animal cruelty thing, the person to blame here is Jake. He was going to sic the animal on Miro. Miro acted purely in self defense. Just had to get that out there.

I think that's more on the fans that shat on the match because the surprise was Lio. They can totally debut someone big, and one day they should to keep the gimmick alive, but no one should be mad that once again, it was someone in the Sydal/Rush level.

I talked about it in the podcast (cheap plug), but I think the big failure is that everyone but the Joker is announced and it's always the surprise. I think they need to mix it up, have roster people fight for the Joker spot so we know who it is, but leave 3 spots unannounced for surprises, be them debuts, returns, or just people from the roster we didn't know.

Agreed on all counts.

[Thelone]

I had some of that problem, I wasn't really invested in most of the matches, hence why I was close to calling this a one match show, or why I actually wanted the casino royale match. Even some of the matches that I was looking forward to watching for the workrate, they didn't deliver. The 3-way was turned into a WWE rules match, Ogogo vs Cody wasn't what it should had been, Sting match was a Sting nostalgia show that I won't need to see again, probably ever, and Miro vs Archer should had been a Dynamite main event with less animal cruelty. I don't usually mind predictable wins/loses, it means that they're using some sort of logic, but the story leading to the finish has to be appealing.

Predictability is perfectly fine for the reason you gave, but they should always plant a plausible "but what if" in your mind. If they didn't, that's when it becomes obvious and nowhere near as compelling. Sometimes it's not really feasible (doesn't matter if it's by design and/or because of shitty booking), so just book a competitive match without going overboard with nearfalls/kicking out of everything/time allocation/overbooking and keep this shit for matches where it will be useful and mean something, not to create some bullshit "drama" in a routine title defense.

This is definitely something they need to work on in the future. Every title reign has been that way so far : X wins the belt, then beats random challengers no one buys for months, then loses the title to the obvious new champion. It's okay to have long term plans, but you need to make the ride (and challenger's chase) compelling with feuds. Omega has been the champion for SIX MONTHS already and done nothing with the belt. We're at a point where we should be able to think "hey, he might lose it this time", which leads to my other point of...

It also would help if you were building up more than the one guy/girl who's going to defeat the champion at the end of the day. Like, what do you do if Page gets hurt badly in a match (and putting him in the ring with garbage like Janela is almost asking for it) and is out for months? Or fans lose interest in his story and putting the belt on him might end up being a mistake (what happened with O'Reilly in ROH basically)? Sure, you can reheat an Allin or MJF, but it'd be most likely rushed and nowhere near the big moment it should be. You should always have a backup or two ready just in case and to make the chase a bit more unpredictable.

As for the casino match, my big problem is that it's now come down to one surprise and a lot of nothing. I don't mind the Lio Rush/Matt Sydal level debut, anyone expecting Bryan Danielson needs a reality slap on the face, you don't debut a big name like that, until you do because we're accustomed to the Lio Rushes. My problem is that the match doesn't have any other surprises, everyone is pre-announced and it's filled out with Serpenticos and Dustin Rhodes. I rather they remove a bunch of matches from the card, give this one time to have the participants have spots and angles, and build a bunch of stuff towards the next 2-3 months.

I just think it's a shitty gimmick match with the added malus of the joker who will never be anything big because this is the equivalent of the Andre Battle Royale "on the other show" or those Honor Rumbles ROH did a few times. Sure, some fans are a bit delusional to think that Dragon or Punk might debut in such a low-profile match, but why even keep the speculation door open when it will be either disappointing (ridiculous expectations or not) or just eh at best?

[Big Red Machine]

I agree on most counts, but I will push back on the idea that winning a battle royale to earn a world title match is necessarily a "low-profile spot." If someone like Dragon or Andrade was the surprise in the match and ran through people, the big headline the next day would be "KENNY VS. DRAGON/ANDRADE!"

I've also found that, if you give fans an excellent match in the title change, the chase losing it's steam is (at least temporarily) erased. I think both Kyle and Tyler's ROH World Title wins prove this. And speaking of Tyler, how they handle Jungle Boy now that he's getting an actual title shot will be interesting. We'll see if they avoid the mistakes that Pearce made with Tyler (Remember, Gabe's plan was to put the belt on Tyler at Final Battle 2008.

[Thelone]

I agree on most counts, but I will push back on the idea that winning a battle royale to earn a world title match is necessarily a "low-profile spot." If someone like Dragon or Andrade was the surprise in the match and ran through people, the big headline the next day would be "KENNY VS. DRAGON/ANDRADE!"

No joke, I just had to look up who won last year because I had no recollection of that match (it was good ol' Archer in case you also forgot). He then lost to Moxley a month later at the anniversary Dynamite in a random No DQ match (because it's Moxley). This year won't be any different with Jungle Boy losing to Omega "in a valiant effort" in another 20+ "epic" on Dynamite (because it's Omega).

I know, Rome wasn't built in a day, but they're also not trying to make the CBR prestigious or anything when it's filled with Dark regulars and very few potential winners, then it's not even for a world title shot "at the next PPV (like the Royal Rumble)" or "when the winner chose to cash it in (think MITB, but you have to announce it 30 days in advance or something)", it's on a random Dynamite. Finally, we're back with the predictable vs. obvious issue and when you look back, no one actually won the title match they've been rewarded by winning the CBR (Page lost to Jericho, Rose to Riho, Archer to Moxley, and Jumpin' Jungle Jack Perry will lose to Omega). We can even add Scorpio Sky in there when he won the Sonic ring in that ladder match and lost to Allin, and Mizunami who won the women's tournament then lost to Shida (it was at least a PPV match).

I've also found that, if you give fans an excellent match in the title change, the chase losing it's steam is (at least temporarily) erased. I think both Kyle and Tyler's ROH World Title wins prove this. And speaking of Tyler, how they handle Jungle Boy now that he's getting an actual title shot will be interesting. We'll see if they avoid the mistakes that Pearce made with Tyler (Remember, Gabe's plan was to put the belt on Tyler at Final Battle 2008.

That was a while ago, but I really don't remember many people being that excited for O'Reilly's reign after the Cole match. As for Black, I wasn't watching wrestling at the time, but I've always heard that they've missed the window and made him champion way too late, which is what happened with Elgin a few years later. No one gave a fuck when he finally won the belt from Cole (and the match was almost a carbon copy of their tournament final the year before), his title matches were mostly ass and he wasn't over in the slightest, but they got a legit "oh fuck" moment out of me when Jay Briscoe randomly beat him for the belt at ASE6.

As for Jungle Boy, it's kinda hard to see where they're going with him. To me, he should just ditch the bored, rich, 65-million year old dinosaur and the shitty mascot, then go for the TNT title, but I think they'll either dethrone the Bucks or be the inaugural trios champions (it's happening, we swear!!!).

[Big Red Machine]

I've also found that, if you give fans an excellent match in the title change, the chase losing it's steam is (at least temporarily) erased. I think both Kyle and Tyler's ROH World Title wins prove this. And speaking of Tyler, how they handle Jungle Boy now that he's getting an actual title shot will be interesting. We'll see if they avoid the mistakes that Pearce made with Tyler (Remember, Gabe's plan was to put the belt on Tyler at Final Battle 2008.

That was a while ago, but I really don't remember many people being that excited for O'Reilly's reign after the Cole match. As for Black, I wasn't watching wrestling at the time, but I've always heard that they've missed the window and made him champion way too late, which is what happened with Elgin a few years later. No one gave a fuck when he finally won the belt from Cole (and the match was almost a carbon copy of their tournament final the year before), his title matches were mostly ass and he wasn't over in the slightest, but they got a legit "oh fuck" moment out of me when Jay Briscoe randomly beat him for the belt at ASE6.

As for Jungle Boy, it's kinda hard to see where they're going with him. To me, he should just ditch the bored, rich, 65-million year old dinosaur and the shitty mascot, then go for the TNT title, but I think they'll either dethrone the Bucks or be the inaugural trios champions (it's happening, we swear!!!).

My memory on Kyle is that people were cold going into the match, but coming out of the match, there was some excitement.

With Tyler, they definitely missed the boat on him. He had been losing steam for the second half of 2009, culminating in a sixty-minute draw with Aries at FB 2009 in the middle of a blizzard that involved a lot of Aries running away and trying to get counted out (the crowd's boredom during this match was the origin of the horrible "TWINKIES!" chant). When a rematch with judges was announced for the next NYC show, there was a collective rolling of the eyes, but Aries and Tyler managed to get the crowd into the match and people were going nuts for Tyler by the time the finish came, and he had a lot of momentum coming out of it.

[cero2k]

My memory on Kyle is that people were cold going into the match, but coming out of the match, there was some excitement.

My memory is that everyone was like "Finally ROH" because this came 2 years after PWG had already had a better feud between KOR and Cole, so for two years people expected ROH to hit the angle while it was hot, but they didn't. The match that got them over was the Hybrid Rules in 2012 and ROH waited 4 years to capitalize on KOR/Cole rivalry in a big way because Elgin got in the way, and then that looooooong Briscoe and Lethal reign.

I think the post-match excitement was only because KOR was heading into Wrestle Kingdom as the champion and everyone expected a crazy awesome match there, cuz Final Battle had been good.

[Big Red Machine]

My memory on Kyle is that people were cold going into the match, but coming out of the match, there was some excitement.

My memory is that everyone was like "Finally ROH" because this came 2 years after PWG had already had a better feud between KOR and Cole, so for two years people expected ROH to hit the angle while it was hot, but they didn't. The match that got them over was the Hybrid Rules in 2012 and ROH waited 4 years to capitalize on KOR/Cole rivalry in a big way because Elgin got in the way, and then that looooooong Briscoe and Lethal reign.

I think the post-match excitement was only because KOR was heading into Wrestle Kingdom as the champion and everyone expected a crazy awesome match there, cuz Final Battle had been good.

That's a completely unfair characterization of things.
No one was talking about Kyle O'Reilly as a world title-level guy at that point. They were talking about him as the guy who grows into being a world title-level guy in a few years (like they were talking about Davey Richards in 2008 or Jungle Boy now), but no one was talking about Kyle was being a world-title level guy.
Also, Cole had just won the TV Title, and that match was the blow-off of Kyle and Cole's feud so that Kyle could transition to fully tuning on Davey. You can't have them have a blow-off for one title and then immediately restart the feud for a different title. It would have cheapened the TV Title, and also cut Steen's legs, as he had just started his world title run.


They waited too long to put the belt on Kyle, yes, but the Cole match in 2012 or the stuff in PWG had nothing to do with it, because people were hot to see Kyle win the belt in 2015. He was considered to be the guy who was going to take the belt from Lethal. If they had given in the belt in 2016 after the Cole feud had it's blow-off Mania weekend (i.e. given him the belt in Chicago instead of doing the Cabana title shot and Bullet Club mess), it would have been great. The issue was putting the belt back on Cole and having Kyle take the belt from him when their previous feud had finished early that year. It made the chase feel like a re-hash.

Also, NO ONE was excited for the ROH World Title being defended at the Tokyo Dome because we saw what happened last year when they were only given twelve minutes (and Elgin and Lethal had had a bunch of great matches together, too).

[cero2k]

That's a completely unfair characterization of things.
No one was talking about Kyle O'Reilly as a world title-level guy at that point. They were talking about him as the guy who grows into being a world title-level guy in a few years (like they were talking about Davey Richards in 2008 or Jungle Boy now), but no one was talking about Kyle was being a world-title level guy.
Also, Cole had just won the TV Title, and that match was the blow-off of Kyle and Cole's feud so that Kyle could transition to fully tuning on Davey. You can't have them have a blow-off for one title and then immediately restart the feud for a different title. It would have cheapened the TV Title, and also cut Steen's legs, as he had just started his world title run.


They waited too long to put the belt on Kyle, yes, but the Cole match in 2012 or the stuff in PWG had nothing to do with it, because people were hot to see Kyle win the belt in 2015. He was considered to be the guy who was going to take the belt from Lethal. If they had given in the belt in 2016 after the Cole feud had it's blow-off Mania weekend (i.e. given him the belt in Chicago instead of doing the Cabana title shot and Bullet Club mess), it would have been great. The issue was putting the belt back on Cole and having Kyle take the belt from him when their previous feud had finished early that year. It made the chase feel like a re-hash.

Also, NO ONE was excited for the ROH World Title being defended at the Tokyo Dome because we saw what happened last year when they were only given twelve minutes (and Elgin and Lethal had had a bunch of great matches together, too).

Not in 2012, but I think that when Cole won the title in 2013, and had already been a champ in PWG for a while, the fanbase was definitely high for him and KOR to keep fighting. Similar to Steenerico breaking up, Future Shock rode a wave for years of people wanting to see them wrestle each other at every stage of their careers, it's still happening in WWE, and so when Cole won the title, people did want to see KOR vs Cole. Just because ROH wasn't portraying him as a top level guy yet didn't mean that fans weren't looking at him outside of ROH and seeing the potential.

People were hot for him to be champion in 2015 because he had already been great everywhere else, by 2015 he was already the champion and hero of the people fighting off Mt Rushmore and whatnot. PWG and ROH used to have the same fanbase and a lot of the momentum one guy would get in one company, was because of the performance in the other. Elgin got hot in PWG because ROH pushed him, KOR was the other way around.

Both out arguments are not mutually exclusive, ROH waited too long to pull the trigger, and by the time they did, fans had already seen KOR hit the top of the mountain and had already moved on to shinier things like the rise of the UK scene and the Bullet Club coming to the US.

Speak for yourself, I don't get easily jaded by one match a year prior. I was excited for KOR vs Cole at WK and I think a lot of people were. Not everyone watched WK10 nor were bothered that Elgin vs Lethal of all people had a short match. KOR vs Cole is waaaaaay more exciting, especially because at this point, KOR was started to get more singles matches in ROH outside of BOSJ stuff, he had just had the Shibata match, I think a lot of people thought that Cole and KOR were getting a showcase and Final Battle had just been great.

[Big Red Machine]

That's a completely unfair characterization of things.
No one was talking about Kyle O'Reilly as a world title-level guy at that point. They were talking about him as the guy who grows into being a world title-level guy in a few years (like they were talking about Davey Richards in 2008 or Jungle Boy now), but no one was talking about Kyle was being a world-title level guy.
Also, Cole had just won the TV Title, and that match was the blow-off of Kyle and Cole's feud so that Kyle could transition to fully tuning on Davey. You can't have them have a blow-off for one title and then immediately restart the feud for a different title. It would have cheapened the TV Title, and also cut Steen's legs, as he had just started his world title run.


They waited too long to put the belt on Kyle, yes, but the Cole match in 2012 or the stuff in PWG had nothing to do with it, because people were hot to see Kyle win the belt in 2015. He was considered to be the guy who was going to take the belt from Lethal. If they had given in the belt in 2016 after the Cole feud had it's blow-off Mania weekend (i.e. given him the belt in Chicago instead of doing the Cabana title shot and Bullet Club mess), it would have been great. The issue was putting the belt back on Cole and having Kyle take the belt from him when their previous feud had finished early that year. It made the chase feel like a re-hash.

Also, NO ONE was excited for the ROH World Title being defended at the Tokyo Dome because we saw what happened last year when they were only given twelve minutes (and Elgin and Lethal had had a bunch of great matches together, too).

Not in 2012, but I think that when Cole won the title in 2013, and had already been a champ in PWG for a while, the fanbase was definitely high for him and KOR to keep fighting. Similar to Steenerico breaking up, Future Shock rode a wave for years of people wanting to see them wrestle each other at every stage of their careers, it's still happening in WWE, and so when Cole won the title, people did want to see KOR vs Cole. Just because ROH wasn't portraying him as a top level guy yet didn't mean that fans weren't looking at him outside of ROH and seeing the potential.

People were hot for him to be champion in 2015 because he had already been great everywhere else, by 2015 he was already the champion and hero of the people fighting off Mt Rushmore and whatnot. PWG and ROH used to have the same fanbase and a lot of the momentum one guy would get in one company, was because of the performance in the other. Elgin got hot in PWG because ROH pushed him, KOR was the other way around.

Wanted to see the match? Yes. But I don't remember hearing anyone pressing for Kyle to be the one to win the world title from Cole. They were too busy raving about reDRagon vs. Young Bucks matches. ROH was portraying him as a top-level guy. He was in the company's top tag team, in a promotion that was known for actually letting its tag titles be main event belts. I never once heard anyone say they "they're not using Kyle O'Reilly right" during that period. People started calling for him to be a singles champion once they felt the tag team run had run it's course, and that was the direction ROH then started pushing him in in relatively short order.

And as for the idea that Kyle got hot in ROH because of PWG... by the time that first Cole vs. O'Reilly match happened, Kyle had been on a grand total of FOUR PWG shows. By the time he and Davey were tearing down the house in singles matches in ROH, PWG was still using him as a tag guy. He was hot in ROH before he was hot in PWG.

Both out arguments are not mutually exclusive, ROH waited too long to pull the trigger, and by the time they did, fans had already seen KOR hit the top of the mountain and had already moved on to shinier things like the rise of the UK scene and the Bullet Club coming to the US.

They absolutely are mutually exclusive. Unless I' m reading your argument wrong, you are saying that the issue is that ROH didn't put the belt on Kyle before PWG did (and had him beat Cole to win it) and/or the fans moved onto BritWres and Bullet Club. I'm saying that the issue is that Kyle's chase of Cole was cold because it was rehashing a feud that had just been settled earlier in the year. The fact that people were both hot for Kyle chasing the belt in 2015 and hot for Kyle's feud with Cole in late 2015-early 2016 (after Kyle had chased and dethroned Cole in PWG and after Bullet Club became a big thing in the US and after BritWres had started getting attention in the US) proves you wrong.

Speak for yourself, I don't get easily jaded by one match a year prior. I was excited for KOR vs Cole at WK and I think a lot of people were. Not everyone watched WK10 nor were bothered that Elgin vs Lethal of all people had a short match. KOR vs Cole is waaaaaay more exciting, especially because at this point, KOR was started to get more singles matches in ROH outside of BOSJ stuff, he had just had the Shibata match, I think a lot of people thought that Cole and KOR were getting a showcase and Final Battle had just been great.

If you thought they were going to get a showcase at the Tokyo Dome, you were extremely naive to the way that ROH/NJPW relationship had proven to work by that point. The general sentiment of the fanbase was that this big rematch was being wasted by being put on that show.

[Thelone]

I never once heard anyone say they "they're not using Kyle O'Reilly right" during that period. People started calling for him to be a singles champion once they felt the tag team run had run it's course, and that was the direction ROH then started pushing him in in relatively short order.

*raises his hand*

I did.

Even in reDRagon, he was always portrayed as the weak link eating pins while they were protecting Fish like crazy. Hell, he was also undefeated as a solo guy for quite a while and finally lost in a random TV match to Jay Briscoe to almost no fanfare. I've always said Delirious did a much better job establishing Fish as a viable uppercarder than O'Reilly as anything. I remember compiling KOR's singles record at one point during that period and came to the conclusion that he was booked at best like a midcarder and absolutely not the next guy. At no point did I feel like they've missed the boat on him, but more like the boat never came. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Delirious put the belt on him to butter him up for a new contract, but it didn't work and he just booked O'Reilly to lose the belt back to Cole in front of a disinterested crowd in the undercard of WK.

[Big Red Machine]

I never once heard anyone say they "they're not using Kyle O'Reilly right" during that period. People started calling for him to be a singles champion once they felt the tag team run had run it's course, and that was the direction ROH then started pushing him in in relatively short order.

*raises his hand*

I did.

Even in reDRagon, he was always portrayed as the weak link eating pins while they were protecting Fish like crazy. Hell, he was also undefeated as a solo guy for quite a while and finally lost in a random TV match to Jay Briscoe to almost no fanfare. I've always said Delirious did a much better job establishing Fish as a viable uppercarder than O'Reilly as anything. I remember compiling KOR's singles record at one point during that period and came to the conclusion that he was booked at best like a midcarder and absolutely not the next guy. At no point did I feel like they've missed the boat on him, but more like the boat never came. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Delirious put the belt on him to butter him up for a new contract, but it didn't work and he just booked O'Reilly to lose the belt back to Cole in front of a disinterested crowd in the undercard of WK.

I have no memory of these feelings. or research (not saying that it didn't happen. Just that I don't remember Fish being the protected one). Do you remember when the Jay Briscoe thing was? Cagematch has them only wrestling two singles matches: One was in early 2011 when Future Shock was just getting off the ground, and the other was the fifteen-second no contest at the end of that Hopkins show after Kyle took Lethal to a draw for the TV Title that was the first big signal that they were pushing Kyle to the next level. Are you sure you're not confusing Kyle with Jay White re the Briscoe loss?

[Thelone]

I have no memory of these feelings. or research (not saying that it didn't happen. Just that I don't remember Fish being the protected one). Do you remember when the Jay Briscoe thing was? Cagematch has them only wrestling two singles matches: One was in early 2011 when Future Shock was just getting off the ground, and the other was the fifteen-second no contest at the end of that Hopkins show after Kyle took Lethal to a draw for the TV Title that was the first big signal that they were pushing Kyle to the next level. Are you sure you're not confusing Kyle with Jay White re the Briscoe loss?

Fish was the one with the undefeated streak, not KOR. That match was early 2015 I wanna say *checks Cagematch* my bad, January 2014. I'll be fair and say that they actually booked O'Reilly like he should have been during the second half of 2016, but that was too little too late after a full year of whiny promos and multiple losses.

A lot of the old guard on ROHWorld felt the same way, or at least what was left of it already. I guess you could say it was only a vocal minority, but there was definitely some backlash over the O'Reilly push.

[Big Red Machine]

I have no memory of these feelings. or research (not saying that it didn't happen. Just that I don't remember Fish being the protected one). Do you remember when the Jay Briscoe thing was? Cagematch has them only wrestling two singles matches: One was in early 2011 when Future Shock was just getting off the ground, and the other was the fifteen-second no contest at the end of that Hopkins show after Kyle took Lethal to a draw for the TV Title that was the first big signal that they were pushing Kyle to the next level. Are you sure you're not confusing Kyle with Jay White re the Briscoe loss?

Fish was the one with the undefeated streak, not KOR. That match was early 2015 I wanna say *checks Cagematch* my bad, January 2014. I'll be fair and say that they actually booked O'Reilly like he should have been during the second half of 2016, but that was too little too late after a full year of whiny promos and multiple losses.

A lot of the old guard on ROHWorld felt the same way, or at least what was left of it already. I guess you could say it was only a vocal minority, but there was definitely some backlash over the O'Reilly push.

I remember there being backlash over the push, but I remember it being from people who didn't think Kyle had the promo skills to be the top guy rather than from people who thought he should be the top guy but that the hadn't been booked well. I remember a lot of the disappointment being more over the fact that one Cole won the belt from Lethal, we all knew exactly who he was losing it to, so it was just a waiting game.