BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

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KILLdozer
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by KILLdozer » Oct 8th, '19, 14:23

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:17
cero2k wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 08:28
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 23:14


Which I don't understand one bit. The "kicking too much ass" DQ has always been Bryan and Vinny being idiots. It's a DQ for not breaking in the corner. It's in the rules. The rules of HIAC state that there are no DQs, so how could anyone have possibly thought this was a DQ? I thought the fact that it was a ref stoppage was obvious.
because it's WWE and because as much as WWE thinks the fans are stupid, fans think WWE is pretty stupid/arrogant to do so. It looked like a DQ, fans shouldn't need to have the rule book to check what applied, and the majority saw a DQ, wrestlers and critics alike.

You're not wrong, but like NWK said, I think the blame lies with the execution from a production point of view rather than with the concept. Announcers better explaining what happened would have made it clear what was happening. If it had immediately been announced that Seth was the winner due to referee stoppage because The Fiend was unable to defend himself, it would not have caused the confusion that it did. WWE's mindset of obfuscation on things like finishes and rules is problematic, and (as I said) with the hindsight of the way they eventually announced it, it feels even more like a cop-out than the finish I thought it was (even though according to what they announced, the finish I thought it was was technically correct. The problem is that it can be equally read that they DQed Seth without using the word DQ). The problem was not with what we saw but with the way it was presented to us.
I mean...yeah. Just declare it a stoppage because he is unable to continue and therefore Rollins is the winner....not all of this "white knight, Batman and The Joker, morale crisis, DON'T hit him with that hammer", "Oh I just said DON'T". Other shit mixed in in between.

Then again they did NOT WANT TO say Ray Wyatt "CAN NOT CONTINUE" because it symbolizes weakness within him.

I guess I'll drop the BRM favorite: "then don't book it as such."
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 8th, '19, 14:24

KILLdozer wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:18
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 13:47
KILLdozer wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 11:58


The way I feel about the no-selling 17 stomps and everything else-it ruined the entire rooster's credibility and put Bray Wyatt on this ridiculous unfathomable level. Most people don't kick out of 3 finishers at the very most, let alone 1 or 2, so having seen so many matches where the normal wrestlers, even the toughest son of a bitches don't get up after 1 at times...

So this really sets an uneven...ridiculous playing field...and I get that's the point of getting the new guy over...but at what cost to literally everyone else?
And now you know why I despise Tomohiro Ishii's style of bullsh*t.

But to your point, my answer to that is The Fiend is magical and exists in a different, Undertaker-like plane.
I get that and I get that's what they were going for, but they really altered the meaning of finishers and what they mean by doing so.
I don't think they did, though, because The Fiend was something so different. On the PW Torch roundtable on this show Todd Martin made the point (which I totally agree with) that The Fiend really isn't compatible with pro wrestling, because in order to work he needs to be this horror monster who no-sells everything, and that's not good.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 8th, '19, 14:28

cero2k wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 11:51
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 11:35
It's not BS. So what if he no-good the other stuff. He got hit in the head with a million things and wasn't moving.
Your argument is like saying that because Homicide once powered out of Dragon's MMA elbows, no ref should ever call a stoppage for them. Every moment is different.
Then why he wait for an extra hammer shot to call the match if Bray is already not moving? This referee should be fired for endangering Bray's life
I fully agree
cero2k wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 11:51
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 11:35
WWE and every other promotion also often tell me that there are "no rules" in a certain match, and yet that match always stops after a pinfall count of three or a submission or a ref stoppage. Announcers always say sh*t like that which is wrong. I wish they wouldn't, but they do. To only use that to call BS on a finish in this one situation is applying a double standard.
I can't particularly remember any high violence match outside of WWE, at the level of a hell in a cell, that ended in a 'no contest'. either neither wrestler can continue, or there is a pin/submission.
It's defintiely happened before (I think one of the Hardy vs. Hardy matches in TNA in 2016, and I'm sure there are other examples that I don't have time to think of right now, but I will try to have some tomorrow night), but that wasn't my point. My point is that wrestling announcers regularly misconstrue the rules of a match, so them not mentioning referee stoppage should not curtail it from being a legit finish. It's one guy beating the other so badly he can't defend himself. It's decisive enough for a blood feud and therefore valid in a blood-feud ender.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 8th, '19, 14:37

cero2k wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 08:28


on a side note, i was reading your last year's 'no contest' finish for hell in a cell review. Somewhere between October 2018 and now, you got hired by WWE didn't you? that was a completely more credible finish and you shat on it like if Gedo had booked it.
The differences are as follows:
1. Most importantly, as I've explained, I interpreted this as a valid referee stoppage victory for Seth, not a DQ or a no-contest. Up until that point I found it fine. It only starts to feel like a cop-out when The Fiends gets up and lays Seth out in the end, because this way Seth keeps the title but The Fiend still got to "win."

2. The beating Brock gave them did not feel like anywhere near enough to make them unable to continue. That was certainly not the case here with Seth. I found the idea of this causing a referee stoppage a lot more credible than I did Braun and Roman not being able to continue after the light beating Brock gave them.

3. That whole match was build on the cell stopping people from being able to interfere, so to have someone come in and beat both guys up killed the purpose of the gimmick.

4. There was a Brock factor there. We thought he was finally gone, and then they bring him back by having him run in and interfere in an HIAC world title PPV main event to cause a no-contest to set up another f*cking Brock match. It wouldn't have been quite as bad if it wasn't in the cell, but it still would have been infuriating.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by KILLdozer » Oct 8th, '19, 14:40

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:24
KILLdozer wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:18
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 13:47

And now you know why I despise Tomohiro Ishii's style of bullsh*t.

But to your point, my answer to that is The Fiend is magical and exists in a different, Undertaker-like plane.
I get that and I get that's what they were going for, but they really altered the meaning of finishers and what they mean by doing so.
I don't think they did, though, because The Fiend was something so different. On the PW Torch roundtable on this show Todd Martin made the point (which I totally agree with) that The Fiend really isn't compatible with pro wrestling, because in order to work he needs to be this horror monster who no-sells everything, and that's not good.
Yeah, If he's not winning the title and he's not decisively losing then what do you do with the guy?
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 8th, '19, 15:04

KILLdozer wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:40
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:24
KILLdozer wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:18


I get that and I get that's what they were going for, but they really altered the meaning of finishers and what they mean by doing so.
I don't think they did, though, because The Fiend was something so different. On the PW Torch roundtable on this show Todd Martin made the point (which I totally agree with) that The Fiend really isn't compatible with pro wrestling, because in order to work he needs to be this horror monster who no-sells everything, and that's not good.
Yeah, If he's not winning the title and he's not decisively losing then what do you do with the guy?
Exactly. And it's not like you can turn him babyface, and he can't be on TV every week, and the Firefly Funhouse doesn't add any dept or understanding to him, so what do you do? pack him away for ten months out of the year?
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by KILLdozer » Oct 8th, '19, 15:56

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 15:04
KILLdozer wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:40
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:24

I don't think they did, though, because The Fiend was something so different. On the PW Torch roundtable on this show Todd Martin made the point (which I totally agree with) that The Fiend really isn't compatible with pro wrestling, because in order to work he needs to be this horror monster who no-sells everything, and that's not good.
Yeah, If he's not winning the title and he's not decisively losing then what do you do with the guy?
Exactly. And it's not like you can turn him babyface, and he can't be on TV every week, and the Firefly Funhouse doesn't add any dept or understanding to him, so what do you do? pack him away for ten months out of the year?
At this point I have no idea what's to come of the character. I can see Rollins going down some dark path furtherly, like "he'll never be the same now..."...

But other than that idk.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by cero2k » Oct 8th, '19, 17:32

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:17

You're not wrong, but like NWK said, I think the blame lies with the execution from a production point of view rather than with the concept. Announcers better explaining what happened would have made it clear what was happening. If it had immediately been announced that Seth was the winner due to referee stoppage because The Fiend was unable to defend himself, it would not have caused the confusion that it did. WWE's mindset of obfuscation on things like finishes and rules is problematic, and (as I said) with the hindsight of the way they eventually announced it, it feels even more like a cop-out than the finish I thought it was (even though according to what they announced, the finish I thought it was was technically correct. The problem is that it can be equally read that they DQed Seth without using the word DQ). The problem was not with what we saw but with the way it was presented to us.
If the concept includes Bray coming back to life quickly and getting his heat back, then it's all bad. A 'restart the match' chant wouldn't break if you allow time in between finish of the match and the beat up later on. It makes it almost seemed like a early call by the ref. Execution and concept are bad
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by cero2k » Oct 8th, '19, 17:37

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:28

It's defintiely happened before (I think one of the Hardy vs. Hardy matches in TNA in 2016, and I'm sure there are other examples that I don't have time to think of right now, but I will try to have some tomorrow night), but that wasn't my point. My point is that wrestling announcers regularly misconstrue the rules of a match, so them not mentioning referee stoppage should not curtail it from being a legit finish. It's one guy beating the other so badly he can't defend himself. It's decisive enough for a blood feud and therefore valid in a blood-feud ender.
it's a big cop-out when the concept of the match is 'The only way to win is by pinfall or submission inside the ring'.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by KILLdozer » Oct 9th, '19, 11:57

Maybe it's time for "the answers " from Wyatt...just to give this all something to go forward with.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Bob-O » Oct 9th, '19, 17:58

KILLdozer wrote:
Oct 9th, '19, 11:57
Maybe it's time for "the answers " from Wyatt...just to give this all something to go forward with.
Wyatt 'liked' that Brazzers tweet about helping WWE with coherent stories with satisfying finishes. That's all the non-kayfabe explanation I need.

Kayfabe-wise, at this point, they could just run a Fire Fly Fun House where Bray explains that The Fiend doesn't care for titles, The Fiend cares about retribution and righting wrongs, he accomplished both Sunday Night and will be setting his sights on the bigger picture blah blah blah Roman Reigns blah blah blah...

They did Hell in a friggin' Cell, there really isn't a match that's going to top those stipulations that they can build to...
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 9th, '19, 18:20

cero2k wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 17:32
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:17

You're not wrong, but like NWK said, I think the blame lies with the execution from a production point of view rather than with the concept. Announcers better explaining what happened would have made it clear what was happening. If it had immediately been announced that Seth was the winner due to referee stoppage because The Fiend was unable to defend himself, it would not have caused the confusion that it did. WWE's mindset of obfuscation on things like finishes and rules is problematic, and (as I said) with the hindsight of the way they eventually announced it, it feels even more like a cop-out than the finish I thought it was (even though according to what they announced, the finish I thought it was was technically correct. The problem is that it can be equally read that they DQed Seth without using the word DQ). The problem was not with what we saw but with the way it was presented to us.
If the concept includes Bray coming back to life quickly and getting his heat back, then it's all bad. A 'restart the match' chant wouldn't break if you allow time in between finish of the match and the beat up later on. It makes it almost seemed like a early call by the ref. Execution and concept are bad
I think they thought they did allow enough time. And I think ANY comeback after a stoppage is bad (unless that is going to be the angle and it builds to Last Man Standing or I Quit or something else that follows from that story), and doubly so in a situation like this where it makes it feel like a cop-out.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 9th, '19, 18:41

cero2k wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 17:37
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 14:28

It's defintiely happened before (I think one of the Hardy vs. Hardy matches in TNA in 2016, and I'm sure there are other examples that I don't have time to think of right now, but I will try to have some tomorrow night), but that wasn't my point. My point is that wrestling announcers regularly misconstrue the rules of a match, so them not mentioning referee stoppage should not curtail it from being a legit finish. It's one guy beating the other so badly he can't defend himself. It's decisive enough for a blood feud and therefore valid in a blood-feud ender.
it's a big cop-out when the concept of the match is 'The only way to win is by pinfall or submission inside the ring'.
My point is that if you're going to get bent out of a shape about a match ending in a referee stoppage after a brutal maneuver by one competitor to another just because the announcers only told you it can end by pinfall or submission, then you should do so every time an announcer tells you that a match has "no rules" even though there clearly are rules, even if those rules are just "in order to win the match you must hold your opponent's shoulders down to the mat or floor for a three-count.
The actual finish of this match, regardless of what came after it, was a fine finish for a Hell in a Cell match. How often to announcers mention that a match can end by knockout? Rarely. And yet we know that's a legit finish. Ditto a TKO (at least until a count for it is on) and yet that is part of the rules and is often teased. Should the announcers and ring announcer always convey the rules correctly? Absolutely. But the reality is that very few companies do that, and I find your outrage here selective.
Or, let me put this another way. Would you feel cheated if someone lost a submission match because he/she passed out from the pain even though we are constantly told that "the only way to win is to "make your opponent submit?"
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by cero2k » Oct 11th, '19, 10:18

Uncle Dave's

Hell In A Cell

Lacey Evans vs. Natalya 2.25

Becky Lynch vs. Sasha Banks 4

Roman Reigns/Daniel Bryan vs. Harper/Rowan 4

Randy Orton vs. Ali 3.25

Kabuki Warriors vs. Bliss/Cross 2.25

Viking Raiders/Strowman vs. OC 1.5

Chad Gable vs. King Corbin 1.25

Charlotte vs. Bayley 2.25

Rollins vs. Fiend -2 MINUS 2 STARS

would had been a 1 if it was in the Tokyo Dome. For reference, Sting vs Drunk Jeff Hardy at Victory Road was only -1
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