Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

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NWK2000
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Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

Post by NWK2000 » Nov 30th, '21, 22:25

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Big Red Machine
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Re: Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

Post by Big Red Machine » Dec 1st, '21, 08:35

Well... It's TNA. Murder and attempted murder is nothing new for them
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Re: Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

Post by cero2k » Dec 1st, '21, 11:41

Yeap, that whole feud was great. As usual, Impact was years ahead of business and had some killer Eddie Kingston vs Konnan promo exchanges.
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Big Red Machine
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Re: Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

Post by Big Red Machine » Dec 1st, '21, 18:53

They MURDERED A CHILD.
How do you move forward from there in a feud?
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Re: Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

Post by cero2k » Dec 1st, '21, 19:44

Big Red Machine wrote: Dec 1st, '21, 18:53 They MURDERED A CHILD.
How do you move forward from there in a feud?
the kid never died, he was just injured in a drive-by shooting, and the way the followed it was a gang fight on the street, like I would imagine normal gangs would address it.
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Re: Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

Post by Big Red Machine » Dec 2nd, '21, 09:37

cero2k wrote: Dec 1st, '21, 11:41 Yeap, that whole feud was great. As usual, Impact was years ahead of business and had some killer Eddie Kingston vs Konnan promo exchanges.
Is this really "ahead of the business?" This was several years after Lucha Underground did stuff in a similar style.
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Re: Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

Post by cero2k » Dec 2nd, '21, 11:37

Big Red Machine wrote: Dec 2nd, '21, 09:37
Is this really "ahead of the business?" This was several years after Lucha Underground did stuff in a similar style.
Ahead of the business in the sense that they had Kingston cutting promos and Santana and Ortiz all over the place waay before anyone realized they existed.
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Re: Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

Post by Big Red Machine » Dec 2nd, '21, 19:39

cero2k wrote: Dec 2nd, '21, 11:37
Big Red Machine wrote: Dec 2nd, '21, 09:37
Is this really "ahead of the business?" This was several years after Lucha Underground did stuff in a similar style.
Ahead of the business in the sense that they had Kingston cutting promos and Santana and Ortiz all over the place waay before anyone realized they existed.
Kingston cutting promos? He was doing that (and getting great buzz for it) over a decade earlier in CZW and CHIKARA.

They definitely get credit for being the first big promotion to pick up on Santana and Ortiz, but finding one act doesn't put you "ahead of the business."
"Ahead of the business," to me, is a style thing. LU deserve credit for the cinematic fight scene, and the Hardys deserve some credit for finding a way to exploit its possibilities and to turn it into a match. Gabe deserves credit for being ahead of the curve on the "size doesn't matter" thing and getting over by pushing their work-rate (and I'm not actually sure he was the first one to turn that into a real promotional philosophy). You can say the Bucks were ahead of the business on the whole "shtick and catchphrase above all else" bit (although in that case they actually did get immediate recognition for it, so it's really more that they were the trend-setters rather than they were the guys doing a thing before it became the thing to do).
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Re: Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

Post by Thelone » Dec 4th, '21, 15:28

Also wasn't a big criticism when Kingston was there that they DIDN'T let him talk, instead having Storm and fucking Bram on the mic? If anything, the NWA should be thanked for giving him a spotlight recently, not really Impact.

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Re: Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

Post by Big Red Machine » Dec 4th, '21, 17:10

Thelone wrote: Dec 4th, '21, 15:28 Also wasn't a big criticism when Kingston was there that they DIDN'T let him talk, instead having Storm and fucking Bram on the mic? If anything, the NWA should be thanked for giving him a spotlight recently, not really Impact.
That was his first run. This is his second.
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Re: Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

Post by cero2k » Dec 6th, '21, 10:53

Big Red Machine wrote: Dec 2nd, '21, 19:39
Kingston cutting promos? He was doing that (and getting great buzz for it) over a decade earlier in CZW and CHIKARA.

They definitely get credit for being the first big promotion to pick up on Santana and Ortiz, but finding one act doesn't put you "ahead of the business."
"Ahead of the business," to me, is a style thing. LU deserve credit for the cinematic fight scene, and the Hardys deserve some credit for finding a way to exploit its possibilities and to turn it into a match. Gabe deserves credit for being ahead of the curve on the "size doesn't matter" thing and getting over by pushing their work-rate (and I'm not actually sure he was the first one to turn that into a real promotional philosophy). You can say the Bucks were ahead of the business on the whole "shtick and catchphrase above all else" bit (although in that case they actually did get immediate recognition for it, so it's really more that they were the trend-setters rather than they were the guys doing a thing before it became the thing to do).
Ah yes, how to forget all those televised CHIKARA and CZW shows that we can easily look up on youtube.
Being 'Ahead of the business' can be anything that you do before the major players of the industry, even realizing some people's potential, especially when that person has been passed on for almost 15-20 years. There's no denying that TNA/IMPACT discovered waay more people and built them up from scratch to be bigger deals than ROH and WWE did during the 2010's.
IMPACT/TNA has always had something going on like that, the X Division was ahead of it's time, the Knockouts division was ahead of it's time. Everyone clamoring about Dan Lambert, and top boss Lashley, and all-women PPVs, and Impact has been doing those for years, on TV.
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Re: Today I learned TNA ran an angle which involved kayfabe murdering a child.

Post by Big Red Machine » Dec 6th, '21, 14:02

cero2k wrote: Dec 6th, '21, 10:53
Big Red Machine wrote: Dec 2nd, '21, 19:39
Kingston cutting promos? He was doing that (and getting great buzz for it) over a decade earlier in CZW and CHIKARA.

They definitely get credit for being the first big promotion to pick up on Santana and Ortiz, but finding one act doesn't put you "ahead of the business."
"Ahead of the business," to me, is a style thing. LU deserve credit for the cinematic fight scene, and the Hardys deserve some credit for finding a way to exploit its possibilities and to turn it into a match. Gabe deserves credit for being ahead of the curve on the "size doesn't matter" thing and getting over by pushing their work-rate (and I'm not actually sure he was the first one to turn that into a real promotional philosophy). You can say the Bucks were ahead of the business on the whole "shtick and catchphrase above all else" bit (although in that case they actually did get immediate recognition for it, so it's really more that they were the trend-setters rather than they were the guys doing a thing before it became the thing to do).
Ah yes, how to forget all those televised CHIKARA and CZW shows that we can easily look up on youtube.
Being 'Ahead of the business' can be anything that you do before the major players of the industry, even realizing some people's potential, especially when that person has been passed on for almost 15-20 years. There's no denying that TNA/IMPACT discovered waay more people and built them up from scratch to be bigger deals than ROH and WWE did during the 2010's.
IMPACT/TNA has always had something going on like that, the X Division was ahead of it's time, the Knockouts division was ahead of it's time. Everyone clamoring about Dan Lambert, and top boss Lashley, and all-women PPVs, and Impact has been doing those for years, on TV.
You're using a completely arbitrary cut-off point for who deserves credit for discovering someone/coming up with an idea. If all you need to do to be "ahead of the business" is be using someone before top tier of companies, why should Impact get credit for Eddie Kingston and not the companies where he made his name a decade earlier? It's not like TNA found this dude out of nowhere. And the same goes for pretty much anyone TNA has made over the past decade.
I also particularly don't think that making good use of any individual wrestler before the top-tier companies do should count as being "ahead of the business," because a company should then get equal blame for any misses. They used Eddie Kingston well before AEW did? Okay, well they f*cked up pretty horribly with Cheerleader Melissa. Being ahead of the business is about trends, not about individuals.

Just look at some of your own examples:
The X-Division? You mean that thing that started a few months after Dragon, Daniels and Low Ki had their match at The Era of Honor Begins which set the world on fire? (And it's not like those guys were doing those things out of nowhere, either. Those guys and Spanky were doing stuff in ECWA, and you had AJ Styles and Jason Cross in Wildside, and you had your slightly spottier version of that stuff in CZW with Amazing Red and Brian XL and Ric Blade and the Briscoes and the SATs (plus I'm sure stuff going on with Daniels in California that I don't know about).

The women-only PPVs? With the way those were booked (throw-away themed PPVs booked to have no storyline relevance whatsoever, like the rest of the One Night Only shows), you should just give the credit to SHIMMER, because while this might have been an all-women PPV, it wasn't treated like a pro wrestling PPV with build and relevant storylines.

I'm not saying that TNA doesn't deserve credit for making some people over the past decade (Josh Alexander, Lashley, Moose, EC III, Eli Drake, plus some women I'm sure I'm missing. Tessa, I guess?), but I don't think they deserve nearly as much credit for guys like MSK, Trevor Lee, Sami Callihan, Eddie Edwards, and Taya, who showed up in TNA as finished products. Compare that to ROH, who during that period made Eddie Edwards, Dalton Castle, Matt Taven, Elgin, Ciampa, Bobby Fish, Punishment Martinez, Kyle O'Reilly, War Machine (I'll give CZW credit for Cole and leave Steen and the Bucks out of everything), remaking Lethal from the one-note joke he became in TNA.

I'm not saying that TNA wasn't ahead of the business on some things (and their use of women is the big one), but I don't think being "ahead of the business" is merely just using a known indy quantity well or simply being ahead of WWE or AEW in recognizing talent.
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