BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

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Big Red Machine
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 7th, '19, 21:50

KILLdozer wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 20:09


He brings up another point which I hadn't thought of and I don't think anyone else did yet..."you can use one hammer but not the other kind..."

Don't hit him with that but it's absolutely alright to hit him with THAT one...

Amongst all of the other stupid bullshit..
There's that.
That's not the issue! The bell ringing was for a stoppage win for Seth, not a DQ win for Bray. The ref trying to stop Seth from using the sledgehammer was clearly about trying to prevent Seth from becoming evil or whatever. It's dumb, but there is no inconsistency with the hammers here.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by KILLdozer » Oct 7th, '19, 21:52

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 21:50
KILLdozer wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 20:09


He brings up another point which I hadn't thought of and I don't think anyone else did yet..."you can use one hammer but not the other kind..."

Don't hit him with that but it's absolutely alright to hit him with THAT one...

Amongst all of the other stupid bullshit..
There's that.
That's not the issue! The bell ringing was for a stoppage win for Seth, not a DQ win for Bray. The ref trying to stop Seth from using the sledgehammer was clearly about trying to prevent Seth from becoming evil or whatever. It's dumb, but there is no inconsistency with the hammers here.
It doesn't really matter. The fact is he shouldn't have stopped the Match wiseguy, for whatever reason.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by cero2k » Oct 7th, '19, 22:31

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 21:50

That's not the issue! The bell ringing was for a stoppage win for Seth, not a DQ win for Bray. The ref trying to stop Seth from using the sledgehammer was clearly about trying to prevent Seth from becoming evil or whatever. It's dumb, but there is no inconsistency with the hammers here.
consider that a lot of these reviews and reactions are coming from before WWE had to explain that it wasn't a DQ. Most people saw it as a DQ, the 'Kicking too much ass' DQ that WWE does more often than not.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by KILLdozer » Oct 7th, '19, 22:42

cero2k wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 22:31
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 21:50

That's not the issue! The bell ringing was for a stoppage win for Seth, not a DQ win for Bray. The ref trying to stop Seth from using the sledgehammer was clearly about trying to prevent Seth from becoming evil or whatever. It's dumb, but there is no inconsistency with the hammers here.
consider that a lot of these reviews and reactions are coming from before WWE had to explain that it wasn't a DQ. Most people saw it as a DQ, the 'Kicking too much ass' DQ that WWE does more often than not.
Yeah exactly, I'm sure that guy was freshly or immediately reviewing it without the nonsense explanation of "what actually happened with the finish of that match and not what you saw or thought happened."
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 7th, '19, 23:14

cero2k wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 22:31
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 21:50

That's not the issue! The bell ringing was for a stoppage win for Seth, not a DQ win for Bray. The ref trying to stop Seth from using the sledgehammer was clearly about trying to prevent Seth from becoming evil or whatever. It's dumb, but there is no inconsistency with the hammers here.
consider that a lot of these reviews and reactions are coming from before WWE had to explain that it wasn't a DQ. Most people saw it as a DQ, the 'Kicking too much ass' DQ that WWE does more often than not.
Which I don't understand one bit. The "kicking too much ass" DQ has always been Bryan and Vinny being idiots. It's a DQ for not breaking in the corner. It's in the rules. The rules of HIAC state that there are no DQs, so how could anyone have possibly thought this was a DQ? I thought the fact that it was a ref stoppage was obvious.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by KILLdozer » Oct 7th, '19, 23:19

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 23:14
cero2k wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 22:31
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 21:50

That's not the issue! The bell ringing was for a stoppage win for Seth, not a DQ win for Bray. The ref trying to stop Seth from using the sledgehammer was clearly about trying to prevent Seth from becoming evil or whatever. It's dumb, but there is no inconsistency with the hammers here.
consider that a lot of these reviews and reactions are coming from before WWE had to explain that it wasn't a DQ. Most people saw it as a DQ, the 'Kicking too much ass' DQ that WWE does more often than not.
Which I don't understand one bit. The "kicking too much ass" DQ has always been Bryan and Vinny being idiots. It's a DQ for not breaking in the corner. It's in the rules. The rules of HIAC state that there are no DQs, so how could anyone have possibly thought this was a DQ? I thought the fact that it was a ref stoppage was obvious.
Well gee ok, idk, go ask the hundreds of people across every platform out there who felt that way, that question, and get back to us.

"How could anyone have possibly that this was a" referee stoppage in a HIAC?

I'm not sure which is more illogical and harder to believe given the gimmick of the match. I think mostly the people had no clue so they formed their own conclusion because you never know what these bastards will try to get over on you.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 8th, '19, 08:10

KILLdozer wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 23:19
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 23:14
cero2k wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 22:31


consider that a lot of these reviews and reactions are coming from before WWE had to explain that it wasn't a DQ. Most people saw it as a DQ, the 'Kicking too much ass' DQ that WWE does more often than not.
Which I don't understand one bit. The "kicking too much ass" DQ has always been Bryan and Vinny being idiots. It's a DQ for not breaking in the corner. It's in the rules. The rules of HIAC state that there are no DQs, so how could anyone have possibly thought this was a DQ? I thought the fact that it was a ref stoppage was obvious.
Well gee ok, idk, go ask the hundreds of people across every platform out there who felt that way, that question, and get back to us.

"How could anyone have possibly that this was a" referee stoppage in a HIAC?

I'm not sure which is more illogical and harder to believe given the gimmick of the match. I think mostly the people had no clue so they formed their own conclusion because you never know what these bastards will try to get over on you.
A DQ is harder to believe because it's against the rules. Stoppages aren't, and make sense with the gimmick. You've beaten the opponent up so badly he/she is unable to defend themselves. That's a definitive win. Even in HIAC, the referee still has a duty to ensure the relative safety of the competitors.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by cero2k » Oct 8th, '19, 08:28

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 23:14


Which I don't understand one bit. The "kicking too much ass" DQ has always been Bryan and Vinny being idiots. It's a DQ for not breaking in the corner. It's in the rules. The rules of HIAC state that there are no DQs, so how could anyone have possibly thought this was a DQ? I thought the fact that it was a ref stoppage was obvious.
because it's WWE and because as much as WWE thinks the fans are stupid, fans think WWE is pretty stupid/arrogant to do so. It looked like a DQ, fans shouldn't need to have the rule book to check what applied, and the majority saw a DQ, wrestlers and critics alike.

on a side note, i was reading your last year's 'no contest' finish for hell in a cell review. Somewhere between October 2018 and now, you got hired by WWE didn't you? that was a completely more credible finish and you shat on it like if Gedo had booked it.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by cero2k » Oct 8th, '19, 08:30

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 08:10
Even in HIAC, the referee still has a duty to ensure the relative safety of the competitors.
nope. WWE commentary has said on many occasions, 'in this type of match, the ref is just here to count the pin'. It's a hell in a cell, not a 'mildly hot day in a cell'
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by NWK2000 » Oct 8th, '19, 09:44

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 19:43

I think the ring announcer actually announcing what the finish was would have helped (though that assumes they would have announced it in a normal way and not like the way they actually phrased it on the website which makes it feel like a cop-out rather than an actual finish.
"The referee has determined that The Fiend is unable to continue, therefore, your winner, and STILL WWE Universal Champion, Seth Rollins". That in itself sounds like BS because we just saw The Fiend no sell moves that have put away Lesnar. And then the Fiend springs to life! "Ah ha!" the average fan might think, "I was right! That was the wrong call" so then the Fiend can maybe attack Seth and the referee, and then we get The Fiend sendoff.

I added a sentence of announcing and modified the post match attack SLIGHTLY and I've solved the problem
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by KILLdozer » Oct 8th, '19, 10:57

I find the fact that neither were mentioned or seen on Raw at all very humorous.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 8th, '19, 11:32

NWK2000 wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 09:44
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 19:43

I think the ring announcer actually announcing what the finish was would have helped (though that assumes they would have announced it in a normal way and not like the way they actually phrased it on the website which makes it feel like a cop-out rather than an actual finish.
"The referee has determined that The Fiend is unable to continue, therefore, your winner, and STILL WWE Universal Champion, Seth Rollins". That in itself sounds like BS because we just saw The Fiend no sell moves that have put away Lesnar. And then the Fiend springs to life! "Ah ha!" the average fan might think, "I was right! That was the wrong call" so then the Fiend can maybe attack Seth and the referee, and then we get The Fiend sendoff.

I added a sentence of announcing and modified the post match attack SLIGHTLY and I've solved the problem
It's not BS. So what if he no-good the other stuff. He got hit in the head with a million things and wasn't moving.
Your argument is like saying that because Homicide once powered out of Dragon's MMA elbows, no ref should ever call a stoppage for them. Every moment is different.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 8th, '19, 11:35

cero2k wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 08:30
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 08:10
Even in HIAC, the referee still has a duty to ensure the relative safety of the competitors.
nope. WWE commentary has said on many occasions, 'in this type of match, the ref is just here to count the pin'. It's a hell in a cell, not a 'mildly hot day in a cell'
WWE and every other promotion also often tell me that there are "no rules" in a certain match, and yet that match always stops after a pinfall count of three or a submission or a ref stoppage. Announcers always say sh*t like that which is wrong. I wish they wouldn't, but they do. To only use that to call BS on a finish in this one situation is applying a double standard.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by cero2k » Oct 8th, '19, 11:51

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 11:35
It's not BS. So what if he no-good the other stuff. He got hit in the head with a million things and wasn't moving.
Your argument is like saying that because Homicide once powered out of Dragon's MMA elbows, no ref should ever call a stoppage for them. Every moment is different.
Then why he wait for an extra hammer shot to call the match if Bray is already not moving? This referee should be fired for endangering Bray's life
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 11:35
WWE and every other promotion also often tell me that there are "no rules" in a certain match, and yet that match always stops after a pinfall count of three or a submission or a ref stoppage. Announcers always say sh*t like that which is wrong. I wish they wouldn't, but they do. To only use that to call BS on a finish in this one situation is applying a double standard.
I can't particularly remember any high violence match outside of WWE, at the level of a hell in a cell, that ended in a 'no contest'. either neither wrestler can continue, or there is a pin/submission.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by KILLdozer » Oct 8th, '19, 11:58

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 11:32
NWK2000 wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 09:44
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 19:43

I think the ring announcer actually announcing what the finish was would have helped (though that assumes they would have announced it in a normal way and not like the way they actually phrased it on the website which makes it feel like a cop-out rather than an actual finish.
"The referee has determined that The Fiend is unable to continue, therefore, your winner, and STILL WWE Universal Champion, Seth Rollins". That in itself sounds like BS because we just saw The Fiend no sell moves that have put away Lesnar. And then the Fiend springs to life! "Ah ha!" the average fan might think, "I was right! That was the wrong call" so then the Fiend can maybe attack Seth and the referee, and then we get The Fiend sendoff.

I added a sentence of announcing and modified the post match attack SLIGHTLY and I've solved the problem
It's not BS. So what if he no-good the other stuff. He got hit in the head with a million things and wasn't moving.
Your argument is like saying that because Homicide once powered out of Dragon's MMA elbows, no ref should ever call a stoppage for them. Every moment is different.
The way I feel about the no-selling 17 stomps and everything else-it ruined the entire rooster's credibility and put Bray Wyatt on this ridiculous unfathomable level. Most people don't kick out of 3 finishers at the very most, let alone 1 or 2, so having seen so many matches where the normal wrestlers, even the toughest son of a bitches don't get up after 1 at times...

So this really sets an uneven...ridiculous playing field...and I get that's the point of getting the new guy over...but at what cost to literally everyone else?
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Bob-O » Oct 8th, '19, 13:31

The issue for me was the ref stopping the match before checking on Bray. He called for the bell immediately as if it were a DQ. No 10 count, no 3 arm drops, he couldn't even see him to make that decision!

The moment was between Seth and the ref... Seth was warned, Seth disobeyed, Ref rang the bell.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 8th, '19, 13:47

KILLdozer wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 11:58
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 11:32
NWK2000 wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 09:44


"The referee has determined that The Fiend is unable to continue, therefore, your winner, and STILL WWE Universal Champion, Seth Rollins". That in itself sounds like BS because we just saw The Fiend no sell moves that have put away Lesnar. And then the Fiend springs to life! "Ah ha!" the average fan might think, "I was right! That was the wrong call" so then the Fiend can maybe attack Seth and the referee, and then we get The Fiend sendoff.

I added a sentence of announcing and modified the post match attack SLIGHTLY and I've solved the problem
It's not BS. So what if he no-good the other stuff. He got hit in the head with a million things and wasn't moving.
Your argument is like saying that because Homicide once powered out of Dragon's MMA elbows, no ref should ever call a stoppage for them. Every moment is different.
The way I feel about the no-selling 17 stomps and everything else-it ruined the entire rooster's credibility and put Bray Wyatt on this ridiculous unfathomable level. Most people don't kick out of 3 finishers at the very most, let alone 1 or 2, so having seen so many matches where the normal wrestlers, even the toughest son of a bitches don't get up after 1 at times...

So this really sets an uneven...ridiculous playing field...and I get that's the point of getting the new guy over...but at what cost to literally everyone else?
And now you know why I despise Tomohiro Ishii's style of bullsh*t.

But to your point, my answer to that is The Fiend is magical and exists in a different, Undertaker-like plane.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 8th, '19, 14:17

cero2k wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 08:28
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 7th, '19, 23:14


Which I don't understand one bit. The "kicking too much ass" DQ has always been Bryan and Vinny being idiots. It's a DQ for not breaking in the corner. It's in the rules. The rules of HIAC state that there are no DQs, so how could anyone have possibly thought this was a DQ? I thought the fact that it was a ref stoppage was obvious.
because it's WWE and because as much as WWE thinks the fans are stupid, fans think WWE is pretty stupid/arrogant to do so. It looked like a DQ, fans shouldn't need to have the rule book to check what applied, and the majority saw a DQ, wrestlers and critics alike.

You're not wrong, but like NWK said, I think the blame lies with the execution from a production point of view rather than with the concept. Announcers better explaining what happened would have made it clear what was happening. If it had immediately been announced that Seth was the winner due to referee stoppage because The Fiend was unable to defend himself, it would not have caused the confusion that it did. WWE's mindset of obfuscation on things like finishes and rules is problematic, and (as I said) with the hindsight of the way they eventually announced it, it feels even more like a cop-out than the finish I thought it was (even though according to what they announced, the finish I thought it was was technically correct. The problem is that it can be equally read that they DQed Seth without using the word DQ). The problem was not with what we saw but with the way it was presented to us.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by KILLdozer » Oct 8th, '19, 14:18

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 13:47
KILLdozer wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 11:58
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 11:32

It's not BS. So what if he no-good the other stuff. He got hit in the head with a million things and wasn't moving.
Your argument is like saying that because Homicide once powered out of Dragon's MMA elbows, no ref should ever call a stoppage for them. Every moment is different.
The way I feel about the no-selling 17 stomps and everything else-it ruined the entire rooster's credibility and put Bray Wyatt on this ridiculous unfathomable level. Most people don't kick out of 3 finishers at the very most, let alone 1 or 2, so having seen so many matches where the normal wrestlers, even the toughest son of a bitches don't get up after 1 at times...

So this really sets an uneven...ridiculous playing field...and I get that's the point of getting the new guy over...but at what cost to literally everyone else?
And now you know why I despise Tomohiro Ishii's style of bullsh*t.

But to your point, my answer to that is The Fiend is magical and exists in a different, Undertaker-like plane.
I get that and I get that's what they were going for, but they really altered the meaning of finishers and what they mean by doing so.
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Re: BRM Reviews WWE Hell in a Cell 2019

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 8th, '19, 14:22

Bob-O wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 13:31
The issue for me was the ref stopping the match before checking on Bray. He called for the bell immediately as if it were a DQ. No 10 count, no 3 arm drops, he couldn't even see him to make that decision!
This doesn't bother me. Things often feel this way when a ref stops a match due to knees or elbows or whatever.



Not much visual checking on Ronda there, and those were just fists, not a dude with a sledgehammer and a bunch of other metal objects.
Bob-O wrote:
Oct 8th, '19, 13:31
The moment was between Seth and the ref... Seth was warned, Seth disobeyed, Ref rang the bell.
This definitely caused confusion, but I think the ref's words made clear that it wasn't a DQ. He didn't say "Seth, you can't use that hammer." He said "this isn't you." He was trying to talk Seth out of murdering The Fiend. The problem is that he shouldn't be doing this via talking Seth down, he should do it by calling for the bell and awarding Seth the match via stoppage so that Seth doesn't have to hit The Fiend in the head with the hammer in order to win the match, which is why Seth was doing it. The problem is caused by WWE trying to present grand drama in a way that gets in the way of the sports-like aspect that even a deathmatch is supposed to have.
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