Jimmy Havoc Fined for Staple Gun Attack

[cero2k]

I like and hate this at the same time. It's cool that they address stuff, but why put blocks on yourself like this? There's really no need to address this other than 'havoc is sick', now Havoc can't use the staple gun, or we have to pretend he's being fined

[cero2k]

this is the only acceptable ending

[NWK2000]

this is the only acceptable ending

Considering the buzz that occurred when Tama Tonga got fined for his "You mad/who the fuck is you?" promo, they'd be ridiculous not to turn this into an angle .

[Bob-O]

this is the only acceptable ending

Yes!!!

Turn Havoc into a modern Nikoli Volkov, we just need a Ted Dibiase... I love it!

[XIV]

Or just get rid of him from the company entirely because he's garbage and his hard schtick is boring?

[Big Red Machine]

I like and hate this at the same time. It's cool that they address stuff, but why put blocks on yourself like this? There's really no need to address this other than 'havoc is sick', now Havoc can't use the staple gun, or we have to pretend he's being fined

So they did something that subtly lends credence to your argument that AEW doesn't want "out of control violence" like they expected from Moxley and Omega, and you don't like it?

[cero2k]

So they did something that subtly lends credence to your argument that AEW doesn't want "out of control violence" like they expected from Moxley and Omega, and you don't like it?

hey, just because it gives credence, doesn't mean i think Havoc needs to get fined or anything. Havoc and staples go together, it's not unpredictable. AEW knows what they're getting when they book Havoc in a match.

[Big Red Machine]

So they did something that subtly lends credence to your argument that AEW doesn't want "out of control violence" like they expected from Moxley and Omega, and you don't like it?

hey, just because it gives credence, doesn't mean i think Havoc needs to get fined or anything. Havoc and staples go together, it's not unpredictable. AEW knows what they're getting when they book Havoc in a match.

So then why aren't all of his matches "lights out" matches if AEW thinks he is liable to do thinkgs that are too violent and he'll have to be fined for them?

[cero2k]

So then why aren't all of his matches "lights out" matches if AEW thinks he is liable to do thinkgs that are too violent and he'll have to be fined for them?

already told you, Havoc is predictable, Moxley isn't. Havoc is breaking the rules, but not really being 'too violent'. staples aren't that violent.

[Big Red Machine]

So then why aren't all of his matches "lights out" matches if AEW thinks he is liable to do thinkgs that are too violent and he'll have to be fined for them?

already told you, Havoc is predictable, Moxley isn't. Havoc is breaking the rules, but not really being 'too violent'. staples aren't that violent.

You're completely forgetting the kayfabe point of this. Tony said that Moxley vs. Omega had to be Lights Out because he was worried about the level of violence (and that also tracks with the way the commentary put it over). Going by your "predictability" argument, Dean Malenko wanting to use a chair should be Lights Out but Jimmy Havoc wanting to murder someone with an axe shouldn't be. How does that make any sense?

[cero2k]

You're completely forgetting the kayfabe point of this. Tony said that Moxley vs. Omega had to be Lights Out because he was worried about the level of violence (and that also tracks with the way the commentary put it over). Going by your "predictability" argument, Dean Malenko wanting to use a chair should be Lights Out but Jimmy Havoc wanting to murder someone with an axe shouldn't be. How does that make any sense?

everyone uses chairs, why would that be an issue? unpredictability doesn't mean that wrestlers do something out of their norm. Staples, chairs, thumbtacks, they're all within the usual wrestling norm. Barbwire beds and DDTing someone onto glass coffee tables is not. Promoters can't anticipate or predict the latter level of violence, whereas any promoter knows that in a hardcore match, it's likely that we'll see all the usual weapons.
There isn't a rubric that qualifies what falls under hardcore and lights out. The story is that Mox is too crazy too unpredictable and that he and Omega hate each other enough to do crazy shit, that the office didn't trust sanctioning their match. that's all. You don't need to qualify it against Havoc's matches because Havoc is doing his own thing which hasn't included axes yet.

[Big Red Machine]

You're completely forgetting the kayfabe point of this. Tony said that Moxley vs. Omega had to be Lights Out because he was worried about the level of violence (and that also tracks with the way the commentary put it over). Going by your "predictability" argument, Dean Malenko wanting to use a chair should be Lights Out but Jimmy Havoc wanting to murder someone with an axe shouldn't be. How does that make any sense?

everyone uses chairs, why would that be an issue? unpredictability doesn't mean that wrestlers do something out of their norm. Staples, chairs, thumbtacks, they're all within the usual wrestling norm. Barbwire beds and DDTing someone onto glass coffee tables is not. Promoters can't anticipate or predict the latter level of violence, whereas any promoter knows that in a hardcore match, it's likely that we'll see all the usual weapons.
There isn't a rubric that qualifies what falls under hardcore and lights out. The story is that Mox is too crazy too unpredictable and that he and Omega hate each other enough to do crazy shit, that the office didn't trust sanctioning their match. that's all. You don't need to qualify it against Havoc's matches because Havoc is doing his own thing which hasn't included axes yet.

1. Staples are NOT a usual weapon un a hardcore match.
2. It absolutely is about what constitutes a hardcore match vs. a lights out match, as your theory of predictability is the only thing that makes the decision for Omega vs. Moxley to be lights out but other weapons matches not be lights out come across as anything but a silly contrivance to give Moxley a reason to be angry at Tony and management.

[cero2k]

1. Staples are NOT a usual weapon un a hardcore match.
2. It absolutely is about what constitutes a hardcore match vs. a lights out match, as your theory of predictability is the only thing that makes the decision for Omega vs. Moxley to be lights out but other weapons matches not be lights out come across as anything but a silly contrivance to give Moxley a reason to be angry at Tony and management.

1. In Havoc matches they are. They're kinda common now a days. They're the new thumbtacks. Su Yung vs Jessicka Havok of all feuds had ladies stapling each other in the vagina.
2. But that's what it is, the office didn't trust Mox, especially vs Omega, to not do crazy shit. Khan doesn't have a checklist backstage that decides what matches are lights out or not. This isn't about which weapons specifically get used, it's about who uses them and AEW has presented Havoc to be far more tamed than Mox.

[Big Red Machine]

1. Staples are NOT a usual weapon un a hardcore match.
2. It absolutely is about what constitutes a hardcore match vs. a lights out match, as your theory of predictability is the only thing that makes the decision for Omega vs. Moxley to be lights out but other weapons matches not be lights out come across as anything but a silly contrivance to give Moxley a reason to be angry at Tony and management.

1. In Havoc matches they are. They're kinda common now a days. They're the new thumbtacks. Su Yung vs Jessicka Havok of all feuds had ladies stapling each other in the vagina.
2. But that's what it is, the office didn't trust Mox, especially vs Omega, to not do crazy shit. Khan doesn't have a checklist backstage that decides what matches are lights out or not. This isn't about which weapons specifically get used, it's about who uses them and AEW has presented Havoc to be far more tamed than Mox.

1. The fact that they're "common in Havoc matches" is why I brought up Dean Malenko. Your theory suggests that the promotion has different rules for different wrestlers based on what one would usually see them do, and you can't run a sporting league like that (and don't tell me this isn't a sporting league because they're keeping track of the damn W-L records).

2. You're missing the point. They don't trust him to not do crazy sh*t... but then they put him in a match where he could do anything he wanted, up to and including bringing a gun to the ring and shooting Kenny with it.
What is the potential kayfabe negative of Moxley doing crazy sh*t that necessitates the company having to preemptively wash their hands of the match by making Lights Out (i.e. not sanctioned by the promotion)? That is the question you are failing to answer. If you can't answer this question, then Tony making Moxley vs, Omega Lights Out is nothing but a plot contrivance to make Moxley angry at Tony.
The only answer I can come up with is that they are worried that he will do something so gross or dangerous that it crosses a line with the sponsors, in which case Tony really does need to have a checklist of what is allowed in a match and what goes so far over the line that the company won't sanction it and will make it a Lights Out match if they're worried someone might do it.

[cero2k]

1. The fact that they're "common in Havoc matches" is why I brought up Dean Malenko. Your theory suggests that the promotion has different rules for different wrestlers based on what one would usually see them do, and you can't run a sporting league like that (and don't tell me this isn't a sporting league because they're keeping track of the damn W-L records).

2. You're missing the point. They don't trust him to not do crazy sh*t... but then they put him in a match where he could do anything he wanted, up to and including bringing a gun to the ring and shooting Kenny with it.
What is the potential kayfabe negative of Moxley doing crazy sh*t that necessitates the company having to preemptively wash their hands of the match by making Lights Out (i.e. not sanctioned by the promotion)? That is the question you are failing to answer. If you can't answer this question, then Tony making Moxley vs, Omega Lights Out is nothing but a plot contrivance to make Moxley angry at Tony.
The only answer I can come up with is that they are worried that he will do something so gross or dangerous that it crosses a line with the sponsors, in which case Tony really does need to have a checklist of what is allowed in a match and what goes so far over the line that the company won't sanction it and will make it a Lights Out match if they're worried someone might do it.

1. what you're not getting is that these aren't rules, they're more like gut feelings. There isn't a rule that says someone needs to get a ladder match over a tables match, so why would there be one between Lights Out and Hardcore matches?

2. that's your answer, except there is no checklist because Mox's violence goes beyond what Khan and everyone else can even think about. That's what i've been trying to say, Havoc's stuff is all predicable, they can account for it and prepare, Mox's not so much.

[Big Red Machine]

1. The fact that they're "common in Havoc matches" is why I brought up Dean Malenko. Your theory suggests that the promotion has different rules for different wrestlers based on what one would usually see them do, and you can't run a sporting league like that (and don't tell me this isn't a sporting league because they're keeping track of the damn W-L records).

2. You're missing the point. They don't trust him to not do crazy sh*t... but then they put him in a match where he could do anything he wanted, up to and including bringing a gun to the ring and shooting Kenny with it.
What is the potential kayfabe negative of Moxley doing crazy sh*t that necessitates the company having to preemptively wash their hands of the match by making Lights Out (i.e. not sanctioned by the promotion)? That is the question you are failing to answer. If you can't answer this question, then Tony making Moxley vs, Omega Lights Out is nothing but a plot contrivance to make Moxley angry at Tony.
The only answer I can come up with is that they are worried that he will do something so gross or dangerous that it crosses a line with the sponsors, in which case Tony really does need to have a checklist of what is allowed in a match and what goes so far over the line that the company won't sanction it and will make it a Lights Out match if they're worried someone might do it.

1. what you're not getting is that these aren't rules, they're more like gut feelings. There isn't a rule that says someone needs to get a ladder match over a tables match, so why would there be one between Lights Out and Hardcore matches?

2. that's your answer, except there is no checklist because Mox's violence goes beyond what Khan and everyone else can even think about. That's what i've been trying to say, Havoc's stuff is all predicable, they can account for it and prepare, Mox's not so much.

1. There needs to be a rule because records in AEW matter and Lights Out matches don't count for your record while hardcore matches- which function exactly the same- do. If there is no rule, then the "Lights Out" concept undermines the big point that AEW has been hyping up since day one for why we should be invested in the results of the matches: the fact that wins and losses are going to matter because the records will keep track of them. If the records are going to matter, you can't just circumvent them whenever you want to give someone a win but not have it count in the record books.

2. You keep saying this, but there is nothing even resembling evidence for it. Stapling someone in the dick is a lot less predictable than a guy who used to work in CZW throwing someone through a goofy barbed-wire structure or using broken glass in a match.
You say that the company can "account and prepare for" Havoc's but not Moxley's. Think about the implications of that statement. Prepare and account for it how? What do you mean when you say that? Do you mean they can have a doctor on hand with specialized training or special equipment or something? Like they'd want to have a burn unit on hand because he might use fire? Why does the company's ability to "account and prepare for" Havoc's stuff but not Moxley's mean that Moxley's victory in a weapons match shouldn't count on the official records but Havoc's should?

[cero2k]

1. There needs to be a rule because records in AEW matter and Lights Out matches don't count for your record while hardcore matches- which function exactly the same- do. If there is no rule, then the "Lights Out" concept undermines the big point that AEW has been hyping up since day one for why we should be invested in the results of the matches: the fact that wins and losses are going to matter because the records will keep track of them. If the records are going to matter, you can't just circumvent them whenever you want to give someone a win but not have it count in the record books.

2. You keep saying this, but there is nothing even resembling evidence for it. Stapling someone in the dick is a lot less predictable than a guy who used to work in CZW throwing someone through a goofy barbed-wire structure or using broken glass in a match.
You say that the company can "account and prepare for" Havoc's but not Moxley's. Think about the implications of that statement. Prepare and account for it how? What do you mean when you say that? Do you mean they can have a doctor on hand with specialized training or special equipment or something? Like they'd want to have a burn unit on hand because he might use fire? Why does the company's ability to "account and prepare for" Havoc's stuff but not Moxley's mean that Moxley's victory in a weapons match shouldn't count on the official records but Havoc's should?

1. It's the fact that Lights Out matches don't count for points that is the best thing about it, because it means that wrestlers are willing to ignore points because they hate each other enough. I don't know where you're getting that hardcore matches and lights out matches are the same, did you not watch them? You wanna talk about immersion, THIS is the where the immersion is, where everyone understands that a lights out match and a hardcore match is nothing the same thing.

2. I've seen the evidence, i can totally see why Mox vs Omega had the stipulation, and I don't think i've seen anyone else complain about it.
You brought up sponsors originally, well, in a Havoc match, you tells your sponsors, 'Well, this guy, he's kinda violent usually, he always has a stapler gun with him and uses paper to cut people, but that's usually about it". With Moxley, it's "well...he DDT Omega on a glass coffee table in the VIP area, these guys hate each other so much, we don't know how far they're willing to go to hurt each other". The points have nothing to do with the promotion's preparedness or decision to book an unsanctioned match, it's just a consequence.



Answer me this, why was Steen vs Generico unsanctioned, but not ladder match, the double chain match, the steel cage match? Why was their Fight Without Honor different from other Fights Without Honor? You can't say intensity because they went intense for months.

[Big Red Machine]

1. There needs to be a rule because records in AEW matter and Lights Out matches don't count for your record while hardcore matches- which function exactly the same- do. If there is no rule, then the "Lights Out" concept undermines the big point that AEW has been hyping up since day one for why we should be invested in the results of the matches: the fact that wins and losses are going to matter because the records will keep track of them. If the records are going to matter, you can't just circumvent them whenever you want to give someone a win but not have it count in the record books.

2. You keep saying this, but there is nothing even resembling evidence for it. Stapling someone in the dick is a lot less predictable than a guy who used to work in CZW throwing someone through a goofy barbed-wire structure or using broken glass in a match.
You say that the company can "account and prepare for" Havoc's but not Moxley's. Think about the implications of that statement. Prepare and account for it how? What do you mean when you say that? Do you mean they can have a doctor on hand with specialized training or special equipment or something? Like they'd want to have a burn unit on hand because he might use fire? Why does the company's ability to "account and prepare for" Havoc's stuff but not Moxley's mean that Moxley's victory in a weapons match shouldn't count on the official records but Havoc's should?

1. It's the fact that Lights Out matches don't count for points that is the best thing about it, because it means that wrestlers are willing to ignore points because they hate each other enough. I don't know where you're getting that hardcore matches and lights out matches are the same, did you not watch them? You wanna talk about immersion, THIS is the where the immersion is, where everyone understands that a lights out match and a hardcore match is nothing the same thing.

They have the exact same f*cking rules, therefore they're the same match! The only difference is that Lights Out doesn't count towards your record. To not have a clear explanation for why some matches don't count is key for immersion because it stops people from asking questions by preemptively giving them an answer, thus making it easier to accept the fictional universe as real and get invested. Contrivances prevent people from being able to do that.

2. I've seen the evidence, i can totally see why Mox vs Omega had the stipulation, and I don't think i've seen anyone else complain about it.
You brought up sponsors originally, well, in a Havoc match, you tells your sponsors, 'Well, this guy, he's kinda violent usually, he always has a stapler gun with him and uses paper to cut people, but that's usually about it". With Moxley, it's "well...he DDT Omega on a glass coffee table in the VIP area, these guys hate each other so much, we don't know how far they're willing to go to hurt each other". The points have nothing to do with the promotion's preparedness or decision to book an unsanctioned match, it's just a consequence.

Both Bryan and Vinny, Keller's team, and Jason Powell were critical of the concept, too, to, so it's not just me.

You say that "the points have nothing to do with the promotion's preparedness or decision to book an unsanctioned match, it's just a consequence," but that is clearly not true, as the only difference between a "Lights Out" match and a "regular" street fight/hardcore match/Cracker Barrel Clash/No DQs match/whatever is the fact that Lights Out matches don't count on your record, therefore they must be connected in some way.
The "sponsors" theory only (that AEW feels the need to wash their hands of over the top violence for the sake of the sponsors and thus doesn't want those matches counting in official AEW record books) only makes sense if there is a uniform standard. Sponsors are concerned about extreme violence attached to something with their name on it. They're not going to care who is committing the violence. They're not going to be okay with dick-stapling simply because the wrestler doing it is someone they were warned staples his opponent's dick sometimes.

Answer me this, why was Steen vs Generico unsanctioned, but not ladder match, the double chain match, the steel cage match? Why was their Fight Without Honor different from other Fights Without Honor? You can't say intensity because they went intense for months.

The Steen vs. Generico match from Final Battle 2010 was unsanctioned because the idea was that the company was not going to be liable for any more property damage they caused and that the company didn't want one of the wrestlers to sue them if the other maimed him. (And, from a non-kayfabe POV, it let this match be the real main event without making it seem like something else was being put on top of the world title match).

Here is the wording of the original article from the website:

After weeks of meetings and discussions, ROH officials have deemed both El Generico and Kevin Steen a major liability and have decided to cancel the El Generico vs. Kevin Steen “Fight Without Honor” bout from the OFFICIAL card this Saturday, December 18th, 2010 in New York City. “Final Battle 2010” will contain a total of 7 matches with the ROH World Championship match being the last official match of the event.

That being said, after the main event has ended, Ring of Honor will not claim any responsibility for what happens in the remaining time of the iPPV. El Generico vs. Kevin Steen will take place after the official card has ended, but it will be an UNSANCTIONED “Fight Without Honor” with ROH released from all obligation, liability, tax, etc.

Ring of Honor has come to this decision based of the track record of this rivalry and the damage it has caused wherever ROH has gone in the past year; not just monetarily speaking, but also physically and mentally as well. ROH officials recently threatened to file for a restraining order against Steen for his continuous harassing messages to staff & officials alike, and it was this that made them question whether or not to hold the bout. Steen has recently found himself handcuffed and restrained in a straightjacket at ROH live events as a way to contain his wild, destructive behavior, and to protect the hapless fan that may happen to support El Generico.

Thousands of dollars have been spent by ROH in damages caused by situations involving both Steen and Generico. Along with the large financial responsibility that these two men bring with them is the physical injury and psychiatric trauma this feud has projected onto others. Ring of Honor as a company completely washes its hands of any responsibility as it pertains to this unsanctioned bout.

The match has picked up outside funding to allow the necessary amount of officials, security, and staff to contain the fight as much as possible.

ROH officials feel it necessary to warn fans that the unsanctioned bout will most certainly contain explicit content that is completely the viewer’s choice as to whether he wants to continue watching after the ROH World Championship match has concluded.

“The Final Battle at Final Battle” will take place this Saturday without the sanction of ROH officials. If Generico loses, he will unmask and if Steen loses, he will quit Ring of Honor! This could be one of the most violent and historic matches in ROH history. Viewer discretion is advised.

If I remember correctly, there were later hints that the "outside funding" was Corino.