THE MEGA POWERS! NJPW 10.27 SPOILERS!

NJPW, PROGRESS, RevPro, CMLL, etc
Post Reply
User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16746
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

THE MEGA POWERS! NJPW 10.27 SPOILERS!

Post by cero2k » Oct 27th, '18, 10:52

Image

Tanahashi & Okada vs Golden Lovers please! it be a modern day Kobashi/Misawa vs Kawada/Taue



User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 21278
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: THE MEGA POWERS! NJPW 10.27 SPOILERS!

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 30th, '18, 08:16

Hold on. This is backwards. Tanahashi finished his issues with White and his stable. The guy who should still have an on-going issue with the dudes White is hanging out with is Kenny Omega (and the rest of Bullet Club Elite).
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
wXw 16 Carat Tournament 2016
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16746
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: THE MEGA POWERS! NJPW 10.27 SPOILERS!

Post by cero2k » Oct 30th, '18, 08:26

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 08:16
Hold on. This is backwards. Tanahashi finished his issues with White and his stable. The guy who should still have an on-going issue with the dudes White is hanging out with is Kenny Omega (and the rest of Bullet Club Elite).
I did think about this, i was trying to remember if I had missed anything. I think Tanahashi was just paying his debt for when Okada saved him. That's the type of guy Tana is

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 21278
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: THE MEGA POWERS! NJPW 10.27 SPOILERS!

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 30th, '18, 08:52

cero2k wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 08:26
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 08:16
Hold on. This is backwards. Tanahashi finished his issues with White and his stable. The guy who should still have an on-going issue with the dudes White is hanging out with is Kenny Omega (and the rest of Bullet Club Elite).
I did think about this, i was trying to remember if I had missed anything. I think Tanahashi was just paying his debt for when Okada saved him. That's the type of guy Tana is
And that's fine. But the only guy involved close to Tanahashi and Okada's level is White. With Omega involved, you can have the excuse to temporarily elevate Tama Tonga because of the personal issue with Omega. Now, if you wanted to have Tanahashi, Okada, AND Omega team up against White & the Guerrillas of Destiny, that'd be great, too. You could even have an Omega/Tanahashi miscue lead to one of them getting pinned by White to set him up as a contender for after the Dome and to build some heat between Omega and Tanahashi (hell, you could even have Tama Tonga get elevated to that spot temporarily by pinning Tanahashi- especially if Omega is retaining at the Dome- if you had the guts to do it, but we know how much Gedo loves his conservative booking patterns).
It's just another example of the ball being dropped on the Bullet Club split. All that crap, and all it led to was a very poorly booked split, followed by a non-feud.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
wXw 16 Carat Tournament 2016
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16746
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: THE MEGA POWERS! NJPW 10.27 SPOILERS!

Post by cero2k » Oct 30th, '18, 09:05

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 08:52

And that's fine. But the only guy involved close to Tanahashi and Okada's level is White. With Omega involved, you can have the excuse to temporarily elevate Tama Tonga because of the personal issue with Omega. Now, if you wanted to have Tanahashi, Okada, AND Omega team up against White & the Guerrillas of Destiny, that'd be great, too. You could even have an Omega/Tanahashi miscue lead to one of them getting pinned by White to set him up as a contender for after the Dome and to build some heat between Omega and Tanahashi (hell, you could even have Tama Tonga get elevated to that spot temporarily by pinning Tanahashi- especially if Omega is retaining at the Dome- if you had the guts to do it, but we know how much Gedo loves his conservative booking patterns).
It's just another example of the ball being dropped on the Bullet Club split. All that crap, and all it led to was a very poorly booked split, followed by a non-feud.
Nah, you have Fale, it shouldn't be a direct feud since Fale has nothing on Tanahashi right now, but they've always been rivals, so it's not that far fetched and we know that Fale has always taken Tanahashi to the limit, it's the one rivalry that Fale always delivers.

Personally, i'm hoping we don't see Tana and Okada team up until after WK unless they pull the trigger right now with Power Struggle, otherwise it may feel underwhelming. And I do like that while we've seen The Elite really do nothing, BC OGs are getting stronger, and i'm still expecting someone else from CHAOS to jump.

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 21278
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: THE MEGA POWERS! NJPW 10.27 SPOILERS!

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 30th, '18, 10:17

cero2k wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 09:05
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 08:52

And that's fine. But the only guy involved close to Tanahashi and Okada's level is White. With Omega involved, you can have the excuse to temporarily elevate Tama Tonga because of the personal issue with Omega. Now, if you wanted to have Tanahashi, Okada, AND Omega team up against White & the Guerrillas of Destiny, that'd be great, too. You could even have an Omega/Tanahashi miscue lead to one of them getting pinned by White to set him up as a contender for after the Dome and to build some heat between Omega and Tanahashi (hell, you could even have Tama Tonga get elevated to that spot temporarily by pinning Tanahashi- especially if Omega is retaining at the Dome- if you had the guts to do it, but we know how much Gedo loves his conservative booking patterns).
It's just another example of the ball being dropped on the Bullet Club split. All that crap, and all it led to was a very poorly booked split, followed by a non-feud.
Nah, you have Fale, it shouldn't be a direct feud since Fale has nothing on Tanahashi right now, but they've always been rivals, so it's not that far fetched and we know that Fale has always taken Tanahashi to the limit, it's the one rivalry that Fale always delivers.
Are you sure you're not confusing Tanahashi with Okada, LOL? Okada is the one who gets great matches out of Fale, IMO.
cero2k wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 09:05
Personally, i'm hoping we don't see Tana and Okada team up until after WK unless they pull the trigger right now with Power Struggle, otherwise it may feel underwhelming. And I do like that while we've seen The Elite really do nothing, BC OGs are getting stronger, and i'm still expecting someone else from CHAOS to jump.
The problem with pulling the trigger on it now is that they would almost HAVE to team up in the G1 Tag League, and they're not going to do that because then there would be no one to take the pinfalls and they're obviously not going to win it. And if they're going to wait until after WK to do so, then why would they do this now instead of saving it to be your big news coming out of New Year Dash 2019?
I just don't understand how you can see the lack of anything of any importance (and the tag belts don't count as important. NJPW has made that quite clear) happening between the Elite and the Firing Squad as good. If any other company did this, people would sh*t all over it. Gedo is lucky he has a roster that allows him to use shiny matches to distract people, because the storytelling outside of the matches in this company is horrendous, bordering on nonexistent.

And even with those matches, NJPW gets a pass. Tanahashi doesn't like Omega's style of wrestling? Who is he? Jim Cornette? Drew Gulak? Omega thinks his style is necessary for expanding the company's business and thus he should be champion? Is Gedo being possessed by the heretofore unknown child of Gabe Sapolsky and Vince Russo?
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
wXw 16 Carat Tournament 2016
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16746
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: THE MEGA POWERS! NJPW 10.27 SPOILERS!

Post by cero2k » Oct 30th, '18, 12:26

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 10:17
Are you sure you're not confusing Tanahashi with Okada, LOL? Okada is the one who gets great matches out of Fale, IMO.
lol, maybe, but Tanahashi vs Fale is something that i've always enjoyed in G1s
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 10:17
I just don't understand how you can see the lack of anything of any importance (and the tag belts don't count as important. NJPW has made that quite clear) happening between the Elite and the Firing Squad as good. If any other company did this, people would sh*t all over it. Gedo is lucky he has a roster that allows him to use shiny matches to distract people, because the storytelling outside of the matches in this company is horrendous, bordering on nonexistent.

And even with those matches, NJPW gets a pass. Tanahashi doesn't like Omega's style of wrestling? Who is he? Jim Cornette? Drew Gulak? Omega thinks his style is necessary for expanding the company's business and thus he should be champion? Is Gedo being possessed by the heretofore unknown child of Gabe Sapolsky and Vince Russo?
Because i'm paying attention to the big picture and I'm not judging by the week to week happenings. Bullet Club broke up right before the G1, so i'm not going to throw away the G1 and the impending much more important WK main event for that break up, nor I would sacrifice that awesome finish to the story between Okada and Omega, just for the sake of a stable break up.

Instead, I far more enjoy all these huge little things that are happening. Tama Tonga vs Omega means nothing because we know what even if it was a swerve or he got built up, we know Tama ain't better than Omega. If that was the story they had built to, it be over by now and no one would give a fuck about it. Taking the tag titles is as much as they should be doing right now, why, because the real story is not bc vs bc, but rather the shifting of stables.

The real stories that i like are the ones that have been going all year with White swerving Omega, joining CHAOS, and immediately antagonizing everyone in the group. The BC break up, Okada losing the title and his mojo, the Jay White bully thing with R3K and YOSHI-HASHI, Okada and Gedo break up, CHAOS guys jumping to Bullet Club, Tanahashi trying to take people to his side (with YH and Ibushi, now maybe even Okada), all those things feed into a bigger story which is what I like and why i praise Gedo. I don't care about a WWE-esque break up between Elite and FS followed by just a series of matches that sound cool. I rather see that FS (that in the beginning we all agree, that's a weak stable) get stronger with guys from CHAOS, a true 'ace' in White, and finally reach a point were they'll be a force to be reckon with.

Tanahashi vs Omega is not just about 'wrestling style', it is a clash of styles true, but it's also a story of a Japanese hero that brought NJPW from the gutter vs the western gaijin hero who wants to take NJPW to the next level. They won't agree on many things, wrestling style being one of them. It's not about flippy shit, it's the whole perspective on what makes NJPW be NJPW. It's a way to tell a story between two babyfaces and let the fans get behind the perspective they believe in.

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 21278
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: THE MEGA POWERS! NJPW 10.27 SPOILERS!

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 30th, '18, 14:26

cero2k wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 12:26

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 10:17
I just don't understand how you can see the lack of anything of any importance (and the tag belts don't count as important. NJPW has made that quite clear) happening between the Elite and the Firing Squad as good. If any other company did this, people would sh*t all over it. Gedo is lucky he has a roster that allows him to use shiny matches to distract people, because the storytelling outside of the matches in this company is horrendous, bordering on nonexistent.

And even with those matches, NJPW gets a pass. Tanahashi doesn't like Omega's style of wrestling? Who is he? Jim Cornette? Drew Gulak? Omega thinks his style is necessary for expanding the company's business and thus he should be champion? Is Gedo being possessed by the heretofore unknown child of Gabe Sapolsky and Vince Russo?
Because i'm paying attention to the big picture and I'm not judging by the week to week happenings. Bullet Club broke up right before the G1, so i'm not going to throw away the G1 and the impending much more important WK main event for that break up, nor I would sacrifice that awesome finish to the story between Okada and Omega, just for the sake of a stable break up.
The big picture and week-to-week happenings should result in the same picture being painted. When we are three months down the road you should be able to see how the week-to-week pieces came together to create the big picture. This just feels like they're being ignored.
And I'm not saying you sacrifice anything. If you don't want to "sacrifice the G1" for it then do the turn after the G1, or on the final night, when Omega and Tama Tonga are both out of contention. And you don't have to sacrifice the WK main event, either. There is no reason you can't use September, October, November, and even December if you need it to do the Elite vs. Firing Squad feud and get it over with. Having Omega and Tanahashi on the opposite side of pointless tag team matches for three months doesn't do sh*t to build up the G1 and you don't lose anything from Tanahashi and Omega having a war of words over what style is best and what is best for business this whole time because everyone knows Omega isn't losing the belt to Tama Tonga. Between three Destruction shows, Fighting Spirit Unleashed, KOPW, Power Struggle, the ROH join shows, and the the G1 Tag League Final they have more than enough time to do this feud and blow it off while still also having Omega defend against Ishii. Hell, Omega being involved in matches in a blood feud is a MUCH better reason to me for why he isn't defending the title against Yano or why he and Ibushi wouldn't want to fight each other for the belt at the moment then Yano not getting a title shot just because and Omega and Ibushi talking about some promise they made about not having another match but then Cody giving a BS technicality solution that worms himself into getting a title shot he didn't do sh*t to earn.
And if even all of that is too much of a sacrifice of attention that you think should be on Tanahashi vs. Omega, then you shouldn't be doing the stable break-up at all.
cero2k wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 12:26
Instead, I far more enjoy all these huge little things that are happening. Tama Tonga vs Omega means nothing because we know what even if it was a swerve or he got built up, we know Tama ain't better than Omega. If that was the story they had built to, it be over by now and no one would give a fuck about it. Taking the tag titles is as much as they should be doing right now, why, because the real story is not bc vs bc, but rather the shifting of stables.
It's not about anyone thinking Tama Tonga might be better than Omega. It's about our babyfaces getting revenge on these assholes who stabbed them in the back and jumped them from behind!
They spent so much time building up this "Bullet Club Civil War" and now you're telling me the story isn't Bullet Club vs. Bullet Club? "The shifting of stables" isn't barely even a story; it's watching someone move pieces around on a chess board. It's like watching the Ambrose turn and then telling me that the story isn't about Dean turning on Seth but rather about seeing which tag team steps up to take advantage of the fact that the champs hate each other now and wins the titles. You can appreciate how well you think the pieces fit together, but there is no real "story" there (I'd even argue that in this case having the BC OGs join a stable led by a brash, selfish guy who isn't one of them is basically them going right back to what they said they were going to get away from. AT BEST, the only story is that this is a marriage of convenience, which really only even feels necessary because of Gedo's insane insistence that everyone be organized into stables).
cero2k wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 12:26
The real stories that i like are the ones that have been going all year with White swerving Omega, joining CHAOS, and immediately antagonizing everyone in the group. The BC break up, Okada losing the title and his mojo, the Jay White bully thing with R3K and YOSHI-HASHI, Okada and Gedo break up, CHAOS guys jumping to Bullet Club, Tanahashi trying to take people to his side (with YH and Ibushi, now maybe even Okada), all those things feed into a bigger story which is what I like and why i praise Gedo.
You can call that "big picture" but you're looking at the picture from so far away that you can't see that they forgot to draw someone's legs or accidentally gave someone six fingers. It's like looking at a Rob Liefeld comic. The pictures are cool, if you are willing to overlook the fact that the detail-work makes no sense and/or is horribly sloppy.

Okada lost his mojo? Well Gedo has a funny way of showing it, because, by my count, he took a grand total of ZERO clean losses in the G1, and only two clean losses period since losing the belt: one to ZSJ in RevPro, and the briefcase match to Tanahashi.

You say Jay White bullying Roppongi 3k was part of the story? No. If that was part of the story then we would have seen Rocky Romero get in Jay White's face over it rather than just whine like a baby on commentary. Maybe he confronts White during his post-match press conference after a G1 show. Or maybe he goes to Gedo and asks Gedo to say something to Jay White, and Gedo promises to talk to White (oooh.. foreshadowing! You could even have Okada do something similar to really set things up). And after White kept bullying Roppongi 3K throughout the G1 we'd see Rocky stand up to him and challenge him to a match on one of the Destruction shows (if Bullet Club guys can fight each other then why not CHAOS?). And when Jay White was beating Okada down at Destruction in Kobe, Rocky would have gotten off of his lazy ass to try to stop him. Instead, Rocky just sat there until White came over to him and attacked him to get his chair. or maybe after now seeing this big bad bully Jay White attack both their stable leader and their mentor, Roppongi 3K would have come out to stand up to this bully. Instead they stayed on their asses, too. Just like all of Okada's other CHAOS buddies. All except for YOSHI-HASHI, because YOSHI-HASHI was the one who happened to be involved in a storyline where Tanahashi was trying to recruit him, and the story required YOSHI-HASHI to prove his loyalty to Okada, and also needed only one person from CHAOS to come out so that Gedo's attack from behind wouldn't result in everyone else beating Gedo up.
You want to say the "Tanahashi trying to recruit people" thing is a story then fine. It's weird and hasn't really resulted in anything (him trying to recruit YOSHI-HASHI and Ibushi felt more like heel mind games against Okada and Omega, whereas this alliance with Okada feels like babyfaces teaming up to fight a foe they each cannot beat on their own), but at least there has been some sort of payoff to it. Not so with the Roppongi 3K/Jay White stuff (and no, this current Road to Power Struggle run of eight-man tags with Okada, Rocky & Roppongi 3K vs. Jay White & his new Firing Squad buddies doesn't count because Gedo's insanely regimented booking has allowed so much time to pass and is so patterned that it feels like these guys are Okada's partners not because of a beef with Jay White but because they are in CHAOS and Okada is in CHAOS and thus someone needs to be assigned to team with Okada because Okada and White MUST be on the opposite side of tag team matches this entire tour, because that is how things MUST be done).
So what is it, if not a story or part of a story? It's just a disconnected thing that Gedo does for the purposes of making White look like a heel in preparation for him leaving CHAOS. You can say that that makes it part of the story of White turning heel and I won't argue, but the idea that any of this is some sort of grand tapestry is utter bullsh*t.

cero2k wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 12:26
I don't care about a WWE-esque break up between Elite and FS followed by just a series of matches that sound cool. I rather see that FS (that in the beginning we all agree, that's a weak stable) get stronger with guys from CHAOS, a true 'ace' in White, and finally reach a point were they'll be a force to be reckon with.
Yes. The Firing Squad was a weak stable, even with Ishimori added in. But the solution should not have been for Gedo to shrug his shoulders and say "whoopsies. Oh well. Just... f*ck 'em, I guess." They had an entire G1, plus then a feud with f*cking Kenny Omega, including supplemental matches with Ibushi (plus Page, and Scurll, who are also talented but not megastars in Japan. And also Cody) to try to make something out of Tama Tonga and try to make Bad Luck Fale dangerous again. I don't think Tama Tonga or Bad Luck Fale are anywhere close to the top level of worker in New Japan. I'm not even sure they're in the middle right now. But they had these guys at what was probably the absolute hottest they would ever be, and instead of using that to try to pop a house or two (Omega & Cody vs. Guerrillas of Destiny no DQs would have been a perfect main event for Fighting Spirit Unleashed. You can do Okada & Ishii vs, Golden Lovers any time), and instead their response was to try to put the fire out by pissing on them.
Also, this idea that they need an "ace" makes no sense in kayfabe. In kayfabe, Tama Tonga thinks he is an ace. And it's kayfabe that should drive the wrestlers' actions. In kayfabe, it makes no sense for the Firing Squad to join up with Jay White and Gedo and let them lead the group, given everything Tama Tonga has said over the past year plus. White, Jado, and Gedo joining the Firing Squad feels like it was done purely so 1) White could be part of a stable, because everyone must be part of a stable, and 2) Firing Squad can have someone to put on singles matches that Dave will give ****+ ratings to.
cero2k wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 12:26
Tanahashi vs Omega is not just about 'wrestling style', it is a clash of styles true, but it's also a story of a Japanese hero that brought NJPW from the gutter vs the western gaijin hero who wants to take NJPW to the next level. They won't agree on many things, wrestling style being one of them. It's not about flippy shit, it's the whole perspective on what makes NJPW be NJPW. It's a way to tell a story between two babyfaces and let the fans get behind the perspective they believe in.
That's correct. But none of that is particularly kayfabe. It's less about the belt than the idea of being "the face of the company." Hence why I said it feels like a combination of Gabe and Russo. If any other company (especially a major one) tried to do a storyline like this, they'd be crapped on for doing a worked shoot and devaluing the belt. I think it's hypocritical that people will give New Japan a pass for that but not other companies. And it's just one of many things that people seem all too happy to give New Japan a pass for that they have always jumped on other companies for doing, and the only difference seems to be that they like New Japan's matches better.
If all you care about are the matches then that's fine. But if that's the case then just say that. But they don't. Instead there are people bending over backwards to praise Gedo's sh*tty booking and Bullet Club's sh*tty storytelling. It'd be like CHIKARA fans insisting that their storytelling means that CHIKARA's matches are better than Omega vs. Okada. But it's extremely rare to find a CHIKARA fan that would say that. 99% of them will flat out admit that the action isn't great, but the thing they come for is the stories. I have been hard-pressed to find New Japan fans willing to say "yeah, the storylines don't make much sense, but I'm really just watching for the work rate."
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
wXw 16 Carat Tournament 2016
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16746
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: THE MEGA POWERS! NJPW 10.27 SPOILERS!

Post by cero2k » Oct 31st, '18, 11:25

Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26

The big picture and week-to-week happenings should result in the same picture being painted. When we are three months down the road you should be able to see how the week-to-week pieces came together to create the big picture. This just feels like they're being ignored.
And I'm not saying you sacrifice anything. If you don't want to "sacrifice the G1" for it then do the turn after the G1, or on the final night, when Omega and Tama Tonga are both out of contention. And you don't have to sacrifice the WK main event, either. There is no reason you can't use September, October, November, and even December if you need it to do the Elite vs. Firing Squad feud and get it over with. Having Omega and Tanahashi on the opposite side of pointless tag team matches for three months doesn't do sh*t to build up the G1 and you don't lose anything from Tanahashi and Omega having a war of words over what style is best and what is best for business this whole time because everyone knows Omega isn't losing the belt to Tama Tonga. Between three Destruction shows, Fighting Spirit Unleashed, KOPW, Power Struggle, the ROH join shows, and the the G1 Tag League Final they have more than enough time to do this feud and blow it off while still also having Omega defend against Ishii. Hell, Omega being involved in matches in a blood feud is a MUCH better reason to me for why he isn't defending the title against Yano or why he and Ibushi wouldn't want to fight each other for the belt at the moment then Yano not getting a title shot just because and Omega and Ibushi talking about some promise they made about not having another match but then Cody giving a BS technicality solution that worms himself into getting a title shot he didn't do sh*t to earn.
And if even all of that is too much of a sacrifice of attention that you think should be on Tanahashi vs. Omega, then you shouldn't be doing the stable break-up at all.
I really don't understand your need to get everything thrown at you in a matter of a few shows, nor why we can't have all these things happening at the same time. I already mentioned that doing the Elite vs FS feud right now would be crap because FS is weak, and then what? Omega goes to do his WK build, and then what for the FS? Just doing it because you did the initial angle will only lead to a rushed feud, and yes, you can still do the break up before G1 and then continue later, no one forgot what Tama Tonga did, because NJPW actually makes angles that you can reference back to. Meanwhile, rebuild the BC, have Tanahashi try to recruit Ibushi (whether mind games or not), have White join BC, tons of smaller stories to tell that can add to your bigger story.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
It's not about anyone thinking Tama Tonga might be better than Omega. It's about our babyfaces getting revenge on these assholes who stabbed them in the back and jumped them from behind!
They spent so much time building up this "Bullet Club Civil War" and now you're telling me the story isn't Bullet Club vs. Bullet Club? "The shifting of stables" isn't barely even a story; it's watching someone move pieces around on a chess board. It's like watching the Ambrose turn and then telling me that the story isn't about Dean turning on Seth but rather about seeing which tag team steps up to take advantage of the fact that the champs hate each other now and wins the titles. You can appreciate how well you think the pieces fit together, but there is no real "story" there (I'd even argue that in this case having the BC OGs join a stable led by a brash, selfish guy who isn't one of them is basically them going right back to what they said they were going to get away from. AT BEST, the only story is that this is a marriage of convenience, which really only even feels necessary because of Gedo's insane insistence that everyone be organized into stables).
Dude, the bullet club civil war was between Cody and Omega, and that's over, there was a good angle there were everyone stopped paying attention to the Tongans and they turned out to be the ones kicking everyone out of the Bullet Club, and they will get their ass handed to them at one point, when they're equal to the rest, when it actually matters. Kenny the champion has bigger fish to fry than a backstabbing guy, there is zero gain in having the Elite go in there and win this feud right now, zero. Making your champion do 'back stabbing' feuds, THAT is how you devalue your championship.
I called it shifting stables, but that is the thing to pay attention to right now, how BC broke into two, and CHAOS guys are jumping to this new BC, and god knows what else is yet to come. If it's not a story that you care about, then that's perfectly ok.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
You can call that "big picture" but you're looking at the picture from so far away that you can't see that they forgot to draw someone's legs or accidentally gave someone six fingers. It's like looking at a Rob Liefeld comic. The pictures are cool, if you are willing to overlook the fact that the detail-work makes no sense and/or is horribly sloppy.
Then you need to stop using the magnifying lens looking for every little crevice. You don't appreciate art unless you take a step back and see the whole thing finished.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
Okada lost his mojo? Well Gedo has a funny way of showing it, because, by my count, he took a grand total of ZERO clean losses in the G1, and only two clean losses period since losing the belt: one to ZSJ in RevPro, and the briefcase match to Tanahashi.
He's still motherfckig Okada, and he still couldn't beat Tanahashi in the G1 or the briefcase match. Clean or Dirty, he used to win all matches.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
You say Jay White bullying Roppongi 3k was part of the story? No. If that was part of the story then we would have seen Rocky Romero get in Jay White's face over it rather than just whine like a baby on commentary. Maybe he confronts White during his post-match press conference after a G1 show. Or maybe he goes to Gedo and asks Gedo to say something to Jay White, and Gedo promises to talk to White (oooh.. foreshadowing! You could even have Okada do something similar to really set things up). And after White kept bullying Roppongi 3K throughout the G1 we'd see Rocky stand up to him and challenge him to a match on one of the Destruction shows (if Bullet Club guys can fight each other then why not CHAOS?). And when Jay White was beating Okada down at Destruction in Kobe, Rocky would have gotten off of his lazy ass to try to stop him. Instead, Rocky just sat there until White came over to him and attacked him to get his chair. or maybe after now seeing this big bad bully Jay White attack both their stable leader and their mentor, Roppongi 3K would have come out to stand up to this bully. Instead they stayed on their asses, too. Just like all of Okada's other CHAOS buddies. All except for YOSHI-HASHI, because YOSHI-HASHI was the one who happened to be involved in a storyline where Tanahashi was trying to recruit him, and the story required YOSHI-HASHI to prove his loyalty to Okada, and also needed only one person from CHAOS to come out so that Gedo's attack from behind wouldn't result in everyone else beating Gedo up.
So just because Rocky didn't confront him you're gonna say it wasn't part of the story that lead to White breaking up? It happened almost every night, Rocky always talked about it and constantly mentioned that he was bringing it up backstage. I know this is wrestling, but not everything needs to end up in a confrontation inside the ring, or a small Rocky Romero having to go in and defend another grown qss man that as we've seen in the last years, can surely take care of himself inside the ring. Do you want to have 2009 TNA stable brawls? because this is how you get 2009 TNA stable brawls. Another thing i don't understand why it bothers you so much that people don't come out and save their babyface stablemates.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
You want to say the "Tanahashi trying to recruit people" thing is a story then fine. It's weird and hasn't really resulted in anything (him trying to recruit YOSHI-HASHI and Ibushi felt more like heel mind games against Okada and Omega, whereas this alliance with Okada feels like babyfaces teaming up to fight a foe they each cannot beat on their own), but at least there has been some sort of payoff to it. Not so with the Roppongi 3K/Jay White stuff (and no, this current Road to Power Struggle run of eight-man tags with Okada, Rocky & Roppongi 3K vs. Jay White & his new Firing Squad buddies doesn't count because Gedo's insanely regimented booking has allowed so much time to pass and is so patterned that it feels like these guys are Okada's partners not because of a beef with Jay White but because they are in CHAOS and Okada is in CHAOS and thus someone needs to be assigned to team with Okada because Okada and White MUST be on the opposite side of tag team matches this entire tour, because that is how things MUST be done).
So what is it, if not a story or part of a story? It's just a disconnected thing that Gedo does for the purposes of making White look like a heel in preparation for him leaving CHAOS. You can say that that makes it part of the story of White turning heel and I won't argue, but the idea that any of this is some sort of grand tapestry is utter bullsh*t.
If it's just mind games, then that's perfect, we don't need to change anything, and if it hasn't resulted in anything, it's because it barely happened not long ago, again, why the hurry?
You just answered your own question, it's Gedo showing us what type of person Jay White is, if that is not connected to the beef between CHAOS and White, and the heel turn, then I have no idea what else do you need. He's acted heel since his return, he antagonizes CHAOS, and then turns no them when more people in the stable are getting on to him. It's basic and good, it doesn't require an R3K feud thrown in there in the middle. Do you honestly need a Jay White vs Rocky Romero match/feud?
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
Yes. The Firing Squad was a weak stable, even with Ishimori added in. But the solution should not have been for Gedo to shrug his shoulders and say "whoopsies. Oh well. Just... f*ck 'em, I guess." They had an entire G1, plus then a feud with f*cking Kenny Omega, including supplemental matches with Ibushi (plus Page, and Scurll, who are also talented but not megastars in Japan. And also Cody) to try to make something out of Tama Tonga and try to make Bad Luck Fale dangerous again. I don't think Tama Tonga or Bad Luck Fale are anywhere close to the top level of worker in New Japan. I'm not even sure they're in the middle right now. But they had these guys at what was probably the absolute hottest they would ever be, and instead of using that to try to pop a house or two (Omega & Cody vs. Guerrillas of Destiny no DQs would have been a perfect main event for Fighting Spirit Unleashed. You can do Okada & Ishii vs, Golden Lovers any time), and instead their response was to try to put the fire out by pissing on them.
Also, this idea that they need an "ace" makes no sense in kayfabe. In kayfabe, Tama Tonga thinks he is an ace. And it's kayfabe that should drive the wrestlers' actions. In kayfabe, it makes no sense for the Firing Squad to join up with Jay White and Gedo and let them lead the group, given everything Tama Tonga has said over the past year plus. White, Jado, and Gedo joining the Firing Squad feels like it was done purely so 1) White could be part of a stable, because everyone must be part of a stable, and 2) Firing Squad can have someone to put on singles matches that Dave will give ****+ ratings to.
Gedo never said whoopsies, Tama Tonga was never supposed to be elevated to a big match guy, it's all a story to make Jay White a top guy, this is why you just don't throw a bunch of matches trying to get revenge out of everything. Let the pieces fall in their place so when you do a match, it means something, not just throw them out on Smackdown every week. FS needing an Ace was never kayfabe, it's a shoot, they need someone better than Tama Tonga and Fale, they're still the Bullet Club and they will always need a crown jewel whether it be Devitt, Styles, Omega, or now White. You want a kayfabe connection to bring White in? Devitt brought him in as a young lion originally, he was always part of the team. It's all part of the plan. Tama Tonga kicked out The Elite just like Omega kicked out Styles.



Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
That's correct. But none of that is particularly kayfabe. It's less about the belt than the idea of being "the face of the company." Hence why I said it feels like a combination of Gabe and Russo. If any other company (especially a major one) tried to do a storyline like this, they'd be crapped on for doing a worked shoot and devaluing the belt. I think it's hypocritical that people will give New Japan a pass for that but not other companies. And it's just one of many things that people seem all too happy to give New Japan a pass for that they have always jumped on other companies for doing, and the only difference seems to be that they like New Japan's matches better.
If all you care about are the matches then that's fine. But if that's the case then just say that. But they don't. Instead there are people bending over backwards to praise Gedo's sh*tty booking and Bullet Club's sh*tty storytelling. It'd be like CHIKARA fans insisting that their storytelling means that CHIKARA's matches are better than Omega vs. Okada. But it's extremely rare to find a CHIKARA fan that would say that. 99% of them will flat out admit that the action isn't great, but the thing they come for is the stories. I have been hard-pressed to find New Japan fans willing to say "yeah, the storylines don't make much sense, but I'm really just watching for the work rate."
I don't remember anyone shitting on Cena vs Punk, or Cena vs Dragon, and those two were pretty much the same thing mixing kayfabe with reality. And you may not see a lot of people defend CHIKARA wrestling based on their stories, but I do see a lot of people defending WWE booking based on their matches and vice versa. Or shit on ROH matches because the booking sucks or the other way around, or PWG matches because there are no stories. It's like everyone has their own likes and dislikes. NJPW like Alan Moore like Wes Anderson like House music is not for everyone, be it stories or wrestling, and that applies to all promotions. That does not take the quality away from it, just because Cornette doesn't like it, it doesn't make Gedo bad. You think he's overrated just like I think Triple H is overrated. We're both right and wrong.

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 21278
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: THE MEGA POWERS! NJPW 10.27 SPOILERS!

Post by Big Red Machine » Oct 31st, '18, 16:42

cero2k wrote:
Oct 31st, '18, 11:25
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26

The big picture and week-to-week happenings should result in the same picture being painted. When we are three months down the road you should be able to see how the week-to-week pieces came together to create the big picture. This just feels like they're being ignored.
And I'm not saying you sacrifice anything. If you don't want to "sacrifice the G1" for it then do the turn after the G1, or on the final night, when Omega and Tama Tonga are both out of contention. And you don't have to sacrifice the WK main event, either. There is no reason you can't use September, October, November, and even December if you need it to do the Elite vs. Firing Squad feud and get it over with. Having Omega and Tanahashi on the opposite side of pointless tag team matches for three months doesn't do sh*t to build up the G1 and you don't lose anything from Tanahashi and Omega having a war of words over what style is best and what is best for business this whole time because everyone knows Omega isn't losing the belt to Tama Tonga. Between three Destruction shows, Fighting Spirit Unleashed, KOPW, Power Struggle, the ROH join shows, and the the G1 Tag League Final they have more than enough time to do this feud and blow it off while still also having Omega defend against Ishii. Hell, Omega being involved in matches in a blood feud is a MUCH better reason to me for why he isn't defending the title against Yano or why he and Ibushi wouldn't want to fight each other for the belt at the moment then Yano not getting a title shot just because and Omega and Ibushi talking about some promise they made about not having another match but then Cody giving a BS technicality solution that worms himself into getting a title shot he didn't do sh*t to earn.
And if even all of that is too much of a sacrifice of attention that you think should be on Tanahashi vs. Omega, then you shouldn't be doing the stable break-up at all.
I really don't understand your need to get everything thrown at you in a matter of a few shows, nor why we can't have all these things happening at the same time.
The reason it needs to happen in a short amount of time is because if Jay White bullying Roppongi 3K is so wrong then you'd think that Rocky would get up off his ass and do something about it. They were in the same locker room pretty much every day while this was going on and afterwards, and Rocky never felt compelled to confront White over it, or go to the stable leader about his stable-mate's behavior? If it's not important enough for Rocky to get up and do something about it, then why should we care?
Also, the way that they have it done has Rocky wait to do anything about this (and even then he hasn't actually confronted White about his behavior so much as just been on a team against him) not just until White turns heel but then also after White has wrapped up his big singles feud with Tanahashi? That's not natural human behavior. It's bad storytelling if your only explanations for why someone acted contrary to normal behavior are either "because he didn't feel like doing it yet" or "because there is a magical rule that stops me from getting angry at other guys in my faction."
cero2k wrote:
Oct 31st, '18, 11:25
I already mentioned that doing the Elite vs FS feud right now would be crap because FS is weak, and then what? Omega goes to do his WK build, and then what for the FS? Just doing it because you did the initial angle will only lead to a rushed feud, and yes, you can still do the break up before G1 and then continue later, no one forgot what Tama Tonga did, because NJPW actually makes angles that you can reference back to. Meanwhile, rebuild the BC, have Tanahashi try to recruit Ibushi (whether mind games or not), have White join BC, tons of smaller stories to tell that can add to your bigger story.
If the reason for not doing a feud between The Elite and the Firing Squad is that the Firing Squad is too weak, then they shouldn't have done the split in a way that requires a feud! Just have the Tongans and Ishimori tell Kenny & the Bucks "we don't like what you're doing, so we're going to do our own thing," and then they all shake hands and part amicably. That way the Firing Squad wouldn't even be heels so you wouldn't have to have them ruin the G1 with their stupid, pointless interference (all of which, by the way, has gone nowhere other than be an excuse for why Yano was able to pin Omega, which they could have avoided entirely by just having Ibushi beat Tama Tonga in the previous match).

As for the idea that "NJPW makes angles that you can actually reference back to," this is NOT what that is. That is building off of pre-existing kernels. That is using the situation with the 2013 Tokyo Dome main event to play up the idea that Naito would be annoyed and insecure about Jericho vs. Omega now stealing all of the attention from what he believes will be his big, crowning moment against Okada in the 2018 Tokyo Dome main event, and why it would get under his skin so much that Jericho is claiming that his match is the "real main event," or even that NJPW billed it as a "double main event." Or it's taking a story that has already ended, but showing it still has consequences, like Ambrose being wary about teaming with Rollins in 2017, even though their feud ended in 2014, or Cornette deciding that if he wants to bring in someone to take out Homicide, his best best is Steve Corino, or Cornette being willing to not only bring Homicide in but also give him a title shot in 2012 because he felt Kevin Steen as champion was that big of a danger to ROH.
But those work because they build off of either a minor thing that they are now building on to make it major, or because they are using a past completed story to inform this new one. A major angle at the end of a show where you stab your stable-mates in the back and assault them from behind with weapons and viciously beat them down is NOT minor. It's not the sort of thing you can leave alone for a eight months and then come back to.
I mean... what kind of pro wrestlers get the sh*t beaten out of them in a cowardly assault from behind by people who they thought were their teammates, and just brushes it off by saying "meh. They're just undercard guys, so I'll let it slide."

As for what to do with the Firing Squad coming out of a feud with The Elite: Let them keep the six-man belts and make that their thing. Give those belts some purpose and some stability, and let the Firing Squad at least emerge from the feud with SOMETHING.
cero2k wrote:
Oct 31st, '18, 11:25
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
It's not about anyone thinking Tama Tonga might be better than Omega. It's about our babyfaces getting revenge on these assholes who stabbed them in the back and jumped them from behind!
They spent so much time building up this "Bullet Club Civil War" and now you're telling me the story isn't Bullet Club vs. Bullet Club? "The shifting of stables" isn't barely even a story; it's watching someone move pieces around on a chess board. It's like watching the Ambrose turn and then telling me that the story isn't about Dean turning on Seth but rather about seeing which tag team steps up to take advantage of the fact that the champs hate each other now and wins the titles. You can appreciate how well you think the pieces fit together, but there is no real "story" there (I'd even argue that in this case having the BC OGs join a stable led by a brash, selfish guy who isn't one of them is basically them going right back to what they said they were going to get away from. AT BEST, the only story is that this is a marriage of convenience, which really only even feels necessary because of Gedo's insane insistence that everyone be organized into stables).
Dude, the bullet club civil war was between Cody and Omega, and that's over, there was a good angle there were everyone stopped paying attention to the Tongans and they turned out to be the ones kicking everyone out of the Bullet Club, and they will get their ass handed to them at one point, when they're equal to the rest, when it actually matters. Kenny the champion has bigger fish to fry than a backstabbing guy, there is zero gain in having the Elite go in there and win this feud right now, zero. Making your champion do 'back stabbing' feuds, THAT is how you devalue your championship.
Maybe you could say it would have been acceptable if the Tongans had stayed out of everything, but they didn't. At Dontaku, they were on a thing that was called "Team Kenny." Meanwhile, the majority of "Team Cody" was guys who had a lot more reason to be pissed at Cody at that point then they did with Kenny (the Bucks had flat-out admitted that they were trying to kick Cody at SCOH, and Scurll was feuding with Cody in ROH because he thought Cody was trying to intrude on his ROH World Title match by getting himself added to it).
Where are you getting this crazy idea from that getting revenge on someone only matters when they are on the same footing as you? When Austin found out that Rikishi tried to run him over with a car, did he say "yeah... I'll get around to kicking his ass eventually, but first I think I'm going to try to win some titles, or maybe go f*ck with Vince a bit and then go start a feud with Triple H, because he's a big star and Rikishi isn't... although maybe I'll go after Rikishi if he winds up winning the world title before I do?" F*CK NO! He went after Rikishi immediately and they were having a No DQs match on PPV within two weeks!
If you think giving Tama Tonga a title shot would devalue the title coming off of this then just have it be a non-title match, or involve them with each other in tags while Tama Tonga faces Page or Cody in singles matches until he's earned a title shot. But personally, I think it devalues a title a lot more to have your champion defend the belt once in six months and to not give someone a title shot simply because they're in the same stable then it does to have your world champion want to get revenge on someone so badly he is willing to put his belt on the line to get a chance at it.

And if you want to limit the Bullet Club Civil War to just the Kenny vs. Cody stuff then that's fine, but then surely this is Bullet Club Civil War II." After all, there were two groups calling themselves Bullet Club and one assaulted the other several times. If after the American Civil War there had been a second faction of states breaking off and going to war with the rest of the Union because they thought the Confederate states weren't being punished harshly enough, they would have at least called it the "Second Civil War," because it is still a civil war. Whether it's called that or not Firing Squad vs. Elite is a civil war within Bullet Club (The Elite didn't ditch the BC name until this month, and that had nothing to do with this angle).
cero2k wrote:
Oct 31st, '18, 11:25
I called it shifting stables, but that is the thing to pay attention to right now, how BC broke into two, and CHAOS guys are jumping to this new BC, and god knows what else is yet to come. If it's not a story that you care about, then that's perfectly ok.
This isn't some sort of Dragon Gate-esque grand shifting of the entire roster. All that happened is that split in two, and then one guy who matters and two old dudes (one of whom packs an emotional punch for his betrayal) then joined them. It's not like we're seeing internal divisions or dissension anywhere else.
And it's not that I don't care about it, but I care a lot more about the heroes getting revenge for the cowardly betrayal and assault that was perpetrated upon them. How is that not important?

cero2k wrote:
Oct 31st, '18, 11:25
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
You can call that "big picture" but you're looking at the picture from so far away that you can't see that they forgot to draw someone's legs or accidentally gave someone six fingers. It's like looking at a Rob Liefeld comic. The pictures are cool, if you are willing to overlook the fact that the detail-work makes no sense and/or is horribly sloppy.
Then you need to stop using the magnifying lens looking for every little crevice. You don't appreciate art unless you take a step back and see the whole thing finished.
Pro wrestling isn't a picture, where you can paint half of the lake, then decide you want to go do the mountains in the background, then go finish the lake later because you're only presenting the finished whole to your audience and thus the order you actually paint everything in doesn't matter. Pro wrestling is a story; it evolves and develops right in front of your audience. And it's one that- except in very rare cases with universes like LU or CHIKARA- occurs in real time, so you can't just not come back to something for a month without an explanation of what the characters were doing in the meantime to explain why the logical follow-up didn't occur.
What you're advocating is like... imagine you had a politician who starts off a campaign saying he favors free trade. Then a week later he says he's now against free trade. Then a few days later he comes out and says he's for it again. Then ten days after that he says he's against it. Then the next week says he's for it again but five days later he's coming out against it again, and this goes on and on until the day before the election when he announces that he is now supporting free trade. What you're doing is saying that because he started pro-free trade and finished pro-free and said a bunch of pro-free trade stuff in the middle, that means he has been pro-free trade the entire time, and completely ignoring all of the times he said he was against it. You have to look at all of the developments. You can't just see how something ends and then cherry-pick the datapoints that support the narrative you want and pretend the rest didn't happen.
I will freely admit when I am picking a nit in a story, and especially when it comes to the generally-accepted conventions of pro wrestling. But if you spent the whole winter building up the question of whose side the Young Bucks are going to take, and then the Bucks tell me they are going to make a decision at SCOH, and then, at SCOH in the big Kenny vs. Cody match, they make it very clear then and afterwards that even though they hit Kenny by accident, they were aiming for Cody and decided to side against him, then I don't think it's going over a crevice with a magnifying glass to ask why they are still hanging out with each other afterwards. Kenny being upset with them and not wanting to hang out with them makes sense, but just because Kenny doesn't want to hang out with them doesn't mean they automatically MUST hang out with Cody.
cero2k wrote:
Oct 31st, '18, 11:25
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
Okada lost his mojo? Well Gedo has a funny way of showing it, because, by my count, he took a grand total of ZERO clean losses in the G1, and only two clean losses period since losing the belt: one to ZSJ in RevPro, and the briefcase match to Tanahashi.
He's still motherfckig Okada, and he still couldn't beat Tanahashi in the G1 or the briefcase match. Clean or Dirty, he used to win all matches.
Except in the G1, when he and Tanahashi would always take a few losses, because it's hard to have them not win a round-robin if they don't. But even so, that still doesn't make it a well-told story because his fall is barely perceptible. The Patriots won the Superbowl in 2017, then lost it in 2018. No one is talking about this year's Patriots season as any sort of mission of redemption even though they pretty clearly have a good shot of at least making the Superbowl again. Compare that to the 2009 Yankees, who one year after failing to make the playoffs for the first time in thirteen years, come all the way back and win the World Series. The bigger the fall, the bigger the rise- and therefore the better the story.
cero2k wrote:
Oct 31st, '18, 11:25
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
You say Jay White bullying Roppongi 3k was part of the story? No. If that was part of the story then we would have seen Rocky Romero get in Jay White's face over it rather than just whine like a baby on commentary. Maybe he confronts White during his post-match press conference after a G1 show. Or maybe he goes to Gedo and asks Gedo to say something to Jay White, and Gedo promises to talk to White (oooh.. foreshadowing! You could even have Okada do something similar to really set things up). And after White kept bullying Roppongi 3K throughout the G1 we'd see Rocky stand up to him and challenge him to a match on one of the Destruction shows (if Bullet Club guys can fight each other then why not CHAOS?). And when Jay White was beating Okada down at Destruction in Kobe, Rocky would have gotten off of his lazy ass to try to stop him. Instead, Rocky just sat there until White came over to him and attacked him to get his chair. or maybe after now seeing this big bad bully Jay White attack both their stable leader and their mentor, Roppongi 3K would have come out to stand up to this bully. Instead they stayed on their asses, too. Just like all of Okada's other CHAOS buddies. All except for YOSHI-HASHI, because YOSHI-HASHI was the one who happened to be involved in a storyline where Tanahashi was trying to recruit him, and the story required YOSHI-HASHI to prove his loyalty to Okada, and also needed only one person from CHAOS to come out so that Gedo's attack from behind wouldn't result in everyone else beating Gedo up.
So just because Rocky didn't confront him you're gonna say it wasn't part of the story that lead to White breaking up? It happened almost every night, Rocky always talked about it and constantly mentioned that he was bringing it up backstage. I know this is wrestling, but not everything needs to end up in a confrontation inside the ring, or a small Rocky Romero having to go in and defend another grown qss man that as we've seen in the last years, can surely take care of himself inside the ring.
Absolutely I won't call it part of the story, because there was no follow-up and were no consequences. Just like there were no consequences to hit cheating and screwing Okada. There wasn't even much of a break-up. Jay White was never kicked out of CHAOS. Jay White & Gedo chose to leave.
If Sho and Yoh were capable of standing up for themselves, then why didn't I see them slap Jay White at some point or get in his face, or give him a shove, or flip him off after the match for not breaking up a pin that he easily could have? But none of that happened.
Yeah, Rocky complained about it on commentary, but he never actually did sh*t about it. If Sho or Yoh wouldn't get in White's face after a match, Rocky should have. But he didn't. And if you are a truly virtuous person, then that's not good enough. Otherwise, Uncle Ben winds up getting shot because you didn't lift a finger to stop a mugger. If the stuff Jay White was doing was so morally wrong that it caused Rocky to break into these diatribes then why didn't he get off his ass and try to stop it? And don't tell me that he has any moral objection to getting involved in a match when he's the announcer, because he spent an entire G1 tournament match interfering on Yano's behalf, so that's obviously not it.

Not everything has to lead to an in-ring confrontation, but there should be some sort of confrontation somewhere that we can see so that we know it happened. But we rarely (if ever) get that in New Japan. Guys just do sh*t and ninety-nine times out of a hundred no one confronts anyone over anything. The Bullet Club stuff is the just about the only time I can think of that someone in a stable actually got pissed off at someone else in that stable for doing something and it had any sort of effect that lasted beyond that one match. Ignoring the consequences of things like this and just hoping people will figure "they must have resolved it off-screen" is atrocious storytelling.

This whole thing is a great illustration of the problems with Gedo's booking, and a lot of the stuff the BTE crew do, etc. This whole thing was done for the purposes of making White a heel. The problem is that Gedo only focuses on the effect on White and ignores the effect it should have on everyone else involved. Ditto with all of the Bullet Club stuff over the winter. Marty Scurll is so agonized over the prospect of having to hurt Kenny Omega in a wrestling match, but has no problem beating the sh*t out of and breaking the fingers of anther fellow Bullet Club member, Chase Owens, in the same match? or why the Bucks are okay getting jumped from behind by Chase & Yujiro, but got f*cking upset when Kenny tried to pin the injured Matt in a match that the Bucks themselves challenged Kenny & Ibushi to AFTER Matt had been injured.


cero2k wrote:
Oct 31st, '18, 11:25
Do you want to have 2009 TNA stable brawls? because this is how you get 2009 TNA stable brawls. Another thing i don't understand why it bothers you so much that people don't come out and save their babyface stablemates.
Guys not saving their stablemates (especially babyfaces, but even heels, too) bothers me because if the wrestlers in the stable aren't looking out for each other then why do these stables even exist? If the wrestlers in the stables aren't going to come to each other's aid, then all these stupid stables are is a needless restriction on the matches that can be booked, accelerating stagnation in the product.
I mean... why is it that whenever Goto needs a Jr. Heavyweight partner, he always has to team with Will Ospreay or Rocky Romero? Why can't he team with KUSHIDA sometimes? They're both honorable chaps, right?
Or why were Ishii and Yano ever a team? Ishii is an always-serious tough-man who wins matches through his indomitable will and ability to absorb punishment and keep going, while Yano is a goofball comedy dork who wins at least half of his matches by cheating. Why in G-d's name would these two ever have teamed up? You'd think Ishii would want to team up with Henare or Elgin or Nagata, while Yano would be happier teaming up with Juice or Honma. But no. That can't ever happen because Ishii and Yano are in the same "group" except that the group never actually acts like a group, so the answer is really "just because." And that's a bad reason to drag your product down.

No, I don't want 2009 TNA stable brawls, but if if we've got these stables, then they are a logical consequence of that, and them not happening (or at least guys not running off someone who attacks their stable-mate) is a logic issue. What I would rather see is these stables not be stables anymore, or just be reduced to small groups of guys who actually do act like a stable (The Elite, the Firing Squad, Suzuki-Gun, Roppongi 3K, LIJ, and maybe a smaller CHAOS composed of Okada, YOSHI-HASHI, Ospreay, and and maybe someone else?).
cero2k wrote:
Oct 31st, '18, 11:25
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
Not so with the Roppongi 3K/Jay White stuff (and no, this current Road to Power Struggle run of eight-man tags with Okada, Rocky & Roppongi 3K vs. Jay White & his new Firing Squad buddies doesn't count because Gedo's insanely regimented booking has allowed so much time to pass and is so patterned that it feels like these guys are Okada's partners not because of a beef with Jay White but because they are in CHAOS and Okada is in CHAOS and thus someone needs to be assigned to team with Okada because Okada and White MUST be on the opposite side of tag team matches this entire tour, because that is how things MUST be done).
So what is it, if not a story or part of a story? It's just a disconnected thing that Gedo does for the purposes of making White look like a heel in preparation for him leaving CHAOS. You can say that that makes it part of the story of White turning heel and I won't argue, but the idea that any of this is some sort of grand tapestry is utter bullsh*t.
You just answered your own question, it's Gedo showing us what type of person Jay White is, if that is not connected to the beef between CHAOS and White, and the heel turn, then I have no idea what else do you need. He's acted heel since his return, he antagonizes CHAOS, and then turns no them when more people in the stable are getting on to him. It's basic and good, it doesn't require an R3K feud thrown in there in the middle. Do you honestly need a Jay White vs Rocky Romero match/feud?
I think I answered most of this above, but the reason it does need some sort of White vs. R3K component because while the bullying shows us what kind of person Jay White is, you need a response to the bullying to show us what kind of people Rocky, Sho, and Yoh are.
All I'm asking is something simple, but something that at least acknowledges that this issue has effected these people. If you don't want to do a confrontation during the G1 and then a singles match on the Destruction tour then how about some sort of confrontation in the G1 that leads to White offering to show Rocky, Show, and Yoh why Sho and Yoh should have listened to him by saying he'll pick two young-boys and easily beat Rocky and his "young-boys." Now you'v got a six-man tag on the Destruction Tour with more White bullying, and you can either try to get these young-boys over a bit more than the average by having them also refuse to cheat, or you can just have White cheat and get a win, or you could even have Roppongi 3K win by pinning one of the young-boys and use that as the beginning of setting them up for a shot at the six-man tag titles that are held by Firing Squad, who will now be White's stable-mates by the time Roppongi 3K are ready for their title shot and you can do your eight-man tags with the Guerillas, Ishimori, & White vs. Okada & Roppongi 3K, except now those matches would actually have a little more meaning.
cero2k wrote:
Oct 31st, '18, 11:25
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
Yes. The Firing Squad was a weak stable, even with Ishimori added in. But the solution should not have been for Gedo to shrug his shoulders and say "whoopsies. Oh well. Just... f*ck 'em, I guess." They had an entire G1, plus then a feud with f*cking Kenny Omega, including supplemental matches with Ibushi (plus Page, and Scurll, who are also talented but not megastars in Japan. And also Cody) to try to make something out of Tama Tonga and try to make Bad Luck Fale dangerous again. I don't think Tama Tonga or Bad Luck Fale are anywhere close to the top level of worker in New Japan. I'm not even sure they're in the middle right now. But they had these guys at what was probably the absolute hottest they would ever be, and instead of using that to try to pop a house or two (Omega & Cody vs. Guerrillas of Destiny no DQs would have been a perfect main event for Fighting Spirit Unleashed. You can do Okada & Ishii vs, Golden Lovers any time), and instead their response was to try to put the fire out by pissing on them.
Also, this idea that they need an "ace" makes no sense in kayfabe. In kayfabe, Tama Tonga thinks he is an ace. And it's kayfabe that should drive the wrestlers' actions. In kayfabe, it makes no sense for the Firing Squad to join up with Jay White and Gedo and let them lead the group, given everything Tama Tonga has said over the past year plus. White, Jado, and Gedo joining the Firing Squad feels like it was done purely so 1) White could be part of a stable, because everyone must be part of a stable, and 2) Firing Squad can have someone to put on singles matches that Dave will give ****+ ratings to.
Gedo never said whoopsies, Tama Tonga was never supposed to be elevated to a big match guy, it's all a story to make Jay White a top guy, this is why you just don't throw a bunch of matches trying to get revenge out of everything. Let the pieces fall in their place so when you do a match, it means something, not just throw them out on Smackdown every week. FS needing an Ace was never kayfabe, it's a shoot, they need someone better than Tama Tonga and Fale, they're still the Bullet Club and they will always need a crown jewel whether it be Devitt, Styles, Omega, or now White. You want a kayfabe connection to bring White in? Devitt brought him in as a young lion originally, he was always part of the team. It's all part of the plan. Tama Tonga kicked out The Elite just like Omega kicked out Styles.

Jay White didn't need a stable behind him to be a top guy. All he needed was strong wins, good card positioning, and stealing Okada's manager. Are you telling me he wasn't a top guy when he laid out Okada and Tanahashi after beating them both in the G1, but he became a top guy once Ishimori, Jado, and the Tongans stood behind him?
You seemed like you were saying that an "ace" is the main kayfabe benefit that Firing Squad get out of allying themselves with Jay White, which also fit in with your seeming kayfabe justification of the Firing Squad vs. Elite feud not happening because Firing Squad aren't at the Elite's level yet.

As for the idea that this was all some grand long-term plan, that is clear bullsh*t that doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny unless you apply Russo-esque logic. If this was a plan all along then why did Firing Squad screw Jay White out of his match against Fale in this year's G1?
(And that's me being generous and not assuming that Fale was implying that White becoming the leader of Bullet Club was a plan put in motion by Devitt long before White was anything more than a dojo trainee.)

And wouldn't Tama Tonga see himself as the "crown jewel" ace? Or Fale? They've both beaten Okada/Tanahashi/Nakamura before.
cero2k wrote:
Oct 31st, '18, 11:25
Big Red Machine wrote:
Oct 30th, '18, 14:26
That's correct. But none of that is particularly kayfabe. It's less about the belt than the idea of being "the face of the company." Hence why I said it feels like a combination of Gabe and Russo. If any other company (especially a major one) tried to do a storyline like this, they'd be crapped on for doing a worked shoot and devaluing the belt. I think it's hypocritical that people will give New Japan a pass for that but not other companies. And it's just one of many things that people seem all too happy to give New Japan a pass for that they have always jumped on other companies for doing, and the only difference seems to be that they like New Japan's matches better.
If all you care about are the matches then that's fine. But if that's the case then just say that. But they don't. Instead there are people bending over backwards to praise Gedo's sh*tty booking and Bullet Club's sh*tty storytelling. It'd be like CHIKARA fans insisting that their storytelling means that CHIKARA's matches are better than Omega vs. Okada. But it's extremely rare to find a CHIKARA fan that would say that. 99% of them will flat out admit that the action isn't great, but the thing they come for is the stories. I have been hard-pressed to find New Japan fans willing to say "yeah, the storylines don't make much sense, but I'm really just watching for the work rate."
I don't remember anyone shitting on Cena vs Punk, or Cena vs Dragon, and those two were pretty much the same thing mixing kayfabe with reality.
The difference is that those feuds made the previously-real issues part of kayfabe. You can say that that is true about the "who should be the face of the company?" part of this, but it doesn't make sense in terms of wrestling style. Also, the idea in both of those feuds was that management was purposely not giving opportunities to Cena and Punk that they were giving to Cena. Cena was an example of someone they wanted to be the face of the company while Dragon and Punk were people they didn't. But they were also clearly fine with Orton and Hunter being faces of the company as well. Dragon and Punk had to take the title to try to force the issue on management- to force management to accept that they were at a level where they deserved to be considered a face of the company.
Here, there seems to be no reason (at least to me) why Tanahashi and Omega can't both be the face of the company. They can't stick both guys on the poster? Hell... don't they do that already? Also, because this isn't a situation where one guy needs to take the title to prove that he is worthy of being a face of the company, then the title ceases to be important because the two guys in the main angle are arguing over this nebulous idea of who should be the "face of the company" although neither of them needs to title to prove anything.

cero2k wrote:
Oct 31st, '18, 11:25
And you may not see a lot of people defend CHIKARA wrestling based on their stories, but I do see a lot of people defending WWE booking based on their matches and vice versa. Or shit on ROH matches because the booking sucks or the other way around, or PWG matches because there are no stories. It's like everyone has their own likes and dislikes. NJPW like Alan Moore like Wes Anderson like House music is not for everyone, be it stories or wrestling, and that applies to all promotions. That does not take the quality away from it, just because Cornette doesn't like it, it doesn't make Gedo bad. You think he's overrated just like I think Triple H is overrated. We're both right and wrong.
Agreed. But my problem is that the same people who will poop on WWE for something will not poop on New Japan for doing the same thing. They should have the honesty to do what the CHIKARA fans do and say "yes, I know that isn't very good, but this other thing is the real reason I watch this product" rather than praising something when New Japan does it even though they sh*t all over WWE/TNA/whoever for doing the exact same kind of thing.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
wXw 16 Carat Tournament 2016
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests