“Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by cero2k » Apr 30th, '18, 09:00

Big Red Machine wrote: Apr 29th, '18, 15:32 So nothing was really resolved in any way, and all of the questions still remain. That was a huge waste of twenty-five minutes of my life.
well yeah, answers should happen in the wrestling shows
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 30th, '18, 10:28

cero2k wrote: Apr 30th, '18, 09:00
Big Red Machine wrote: Apr 29th, '18, 15:32 So nothing was really resolved in any way, and all of the questions still remain. That was a huge waste of twenty-five minutes of my life.
well yeah, answers should happen in the wrestling shows
That's what I'd say about important storyline events, too, but that hasn't been the case in this feud. These are essentially backstage segments for the feud, and we don't get these on the wrestling shows.
I've watched one and a half of the three ROH shows and since this happened and all of the NJPW shows these guys have been on and nothing has been different. This was all a big bunch of nothing.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by cero2k » Apr 30th, '18, 13:58



this one is less than 2 minutes
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 30th, '18, 14:03

cero2k wrote: Apr 30th, '18, 13:58

this one is less than 2 minutes
So the last one wasn't the finale and they were just jerking everyone around? That's douchy in the extreme.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by cero2k » Apr 30th, '18, 14:22

it's called drama, Red. from watching Finale it was kinda obvious there had to be more, this even feels like a post-credits avengers scene.

people are for the most part giving this a good reaction, nothing douchey about it


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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 30th, '18, 14:56

cero2k wrote: Apr 30th, '18, 14:22 it's called drama, Red. from watching Finale it was kinda obvious there had to be more, this even feels like a post-credits avengers scene.

people are for the most part giving this a good reaction, nothing douchey about it


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This is the sort of bullsh*t wrestling fans usually hate. Like a guy retiring but then coming back six months later, or building something up as the final blow-off and then just continuing the feud right afterwards. If WWE or TNA had done this, they'd be crucified for it.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by cero2k » Apr 30th, '18, 15:04

Big Red Machine wrote: Apr 30th, '18, 14:56

This is the sort of bullsh*t wrestling fans usually hate. Like a guy retiring but then coming back six months later, or building something up as the final blow-off and then just continuing the feud right afterwards. If WWE or TNA had done this, they'd be crucified for it.
you are comparing a wrestler retiring to a youtube show hinting the end and then coming back with a sequel? you even said it yourself, there were no answers, so now they're back to hopefully give us a happy ending. This show is obviously all about building towards All In, they were not gonna stop months prior to the show
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 30th, '18, 15:07

cero2k wrote: Apr 30th, '18, 15:04
Big Red Machine wrote: Apr 30th, '18, 14:56

This is the sort of bullsh*t wrestling fans usually hate. Like a guy retiring but then coming back six months later, or building something up as the final blow-off and then just continuing the feud right afterwards. If WWE or TNA had done this, they'd be crucified for it.
you are comparing a wrestler retiring to a youtube show hinting the end and then coming back with a sequel? you even said it yourself, there were no answers, so now they're back to hopefully give us a happy ending. This show is obviously all about building towards All In, they were not gonna stop months prior to the show
Right... so why call this episode "The Finale" when you had no plans for it to be the last one? That's the decision I am criticizing. it didn't "hint" at the end. It flat out said it in the name.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by cero2k » May 1st, '18, 09:53

Big Red Machine wrote: Apr 30th, '18, 15:07
Right... so why call this episode "The Finale" when you had no plans for it to be the last one? That's the decision I am criticizing. it didn't "hint" at the end. It flat out said it in the name.
because that's the drama, to leave you thinking that the bullet club wasn't indeed fine and that all is lost. They took time off from posting a new video and they're selling it as "BTE Will Come Back" on social media. This wasn't like a retirement not being respected, this was like Gargano losing his job and still fighting a way to get it back, and fans love that shit. The difference is you see the BC as heels, I see them as babyfaces in this show
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by Big Red Machine » May 1st, '18, 11:34

cero2k wrote: May 1st, '18, 09:53
Big Red Machine wrote: Apr 30th, '18, 15:07
Right... so why call this episode "The Finale" when you had no plans for it to be the last one? That's the decision I am criticizing. it didn't "hint" at the end. It flat out said it in the name.
because that's the drama, to leave you thinking that the bullet club wasn't indeed fine and that all is lost. They took time off from posting a new video and they're selling it as "BTE Will Come Back" on social media. This wasn't like a retirement not being respected, this was like Gargano losing his job and still fighting a way to get it back, and fans love that shit. The difference is you see the BC as heels, I see them as babyfaces in this show
The difference between this and Gargano is that Gargano was made to earn it, and we got to watch. There was no "earning it" here because they simply decided "No. We're not done yet." If they had done something like CHIKARA's "Ashes" series where someone went around convincing the band to get back together then that would be different, but that's not what happened.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by cero2k » May 1st, '18, 11:46

Big Red Machine wrote: May 1st, '18, 11:34

The difference between this and Gargano is that Gargano was made to earn it, and we got to watch. There was no "earning it" here because they simply decided "No. We're not done yet." If they had done something like CHIKARA's "Ashes" series where someone went around convincing the band to get back together then that would be different, but that's not what happened.
the fans that support The Elite earned their return. Did you watch the video? Gordon is barely got the idea to convince the band to get back together, it hasn't happened, you are gonna get those videos, just like you're asking for. This was a less than 2 minute teaser
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by Big Red Machine » May 1st, '18, 11:56

cero2k wrote: May 1st, '18, 11:46
Big Red Machine wrote: May 1st, '18, 11:34

The difference between this and Gargano is that Gargano was made to earn it, and we got to watch. There was no "earning it" here because they simply decided "No. We're not done yet." If they had done something like CHIKARA's "Ashes" series where someone went around convincing the band to get back together then that would be different, but that's not what happened.
the fans that support The Elite earned their return. Did you watch the video? Gordon is barely got the idea to convince the band to get back together, it hasn't happened, you are gonna get those videos, just like you're asking for. This was a less than 2 minute teaser
"Fan support" isn't an on-screen thing in this case, though. This was a prepared plan. It wasn't like they were legit going to cancel the thing but fans begged them not to a la the third season of TOS.
CHIKARA's was a prepared plan, too, but they didn't jerk you around by outright telling you "this is the end" and then not having it be the end. They did something, in storyline, that lends itself to things being continued. There is a difference between "no! You can't end it here!" for narrative reasons and "Please don't end the show! We like it so much!"
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by cero2k » May 1st, '18, 12:45

Big Red Machine wrote: May 1st, '18, 11:56
"Fan support" isn't an on-screen thing in this case, though. This was a prepared plan. It wasn't like they were legit going to cancel the thing but fans begged them not to a la the third season of TOS.
CHIKARA's was a prepared plan, too, but they didn't jerk you around by outright telling you "this is the end" and then not having it be the end.

They did something, in storyline, that lends itself to things being continued. There is a difference between "no! You can't end it here!" for narrative reasons and "Please don't end the show! We like it so much!"
this last line describes both what CHIKARA did and BTE. This is a teaser, would it had been better if they straight up added this during the credits part of the FINALE episode? I get man, you don't like The Elite and everything they do is killing the business, but this is particular is not douchey or anything, they had a season finale and then they got a second season and this is the teaser. There were tons of hints that there was going to be more.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by Big Red Machine » May 1st, '18, 13:46

cero2k wrote: May 1st, '18, 12:45
Big Red Machine wrote: May 1st, '18, 11:56
"Fan support" isn't an on-screen thing in this case, though. This was a prepared plan. It wasn't like they were legit going to cancel the thing but fans begged them not to a la the third season of TOS.
CHIKARA's was a prepared plan, too, but they didn't jerk you around by outright telling you "this is the end" and then not having it be the end.

They did something, in storyline, that lends itself to things being continued. There is a difference between "no! You can't end it here!" for narrative reasons and "Please don't end the show! We like it so much!"
this last line describes both what CHIKARA did and BTE. This is a teaser, would it had been better if they straight up added this during the credits part of the FINALE episode? I get man, you don't like The Elite and everything they do is killing the business, but this is particular is not douchey or anything, they had a season finale and then they got a second season and this is the teaser. There were tons of hints that there was going to be more.
This was built up solely as "the finale." It's timing (the week after the ROH show where Kenny vs. Cody finally happens) and everything about it said finale, and they had no intention of it being one. CHIKARA never built anything up as "finale." This felt like a cheap stunt for attention to get me to watch their show if I wanted to find out what was the deal was going to be with Bullet Club from now on, and I got basically none of that. If they had said "season finale" that would be fine, but that's not what they said. They lied to me in order to get me to waste twenty-five minutes of my time to watch their stupid little sketch comedy show.
These guys are out for themselves. I'm not saying that isn't a smart business strategy or anything because it is smart, but if they wanted to do this right they would be giving this footage to ROH and New Japan to put on their shows, but they don't. They do it all to get their stupid sh*t over, and they've got two bookers who don't give enough of a sh*t to make sure that the stuff they're telling people to watch doesn't contradict essential facts of the business or make the promotion or other wrestlers look stupid. Instead they're making me slog through their goofy comedy bullsh*t in an attempt to understand key storylines in promotions and they're not giving me anything I wouldn't have already figured out on my own. So yeah. I'm pissed off that they wasted my time, and I think that people give this sh*t a pass because it's Bullet Club. If people want to be marks for Bullet Club, let them be marks for Bullet Club, but I'm sick of people trying to dress it up as anything other than just being marks. I'm tired of these stupid double-standards. It's the same way you are with Impact and people not acknowledging that the product is better now than it used to be.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by cero2k » May 2nd, '18, 10:10

Big Red Machine wrote: May 1st, '18, 13:46

This was built up solely as "the finale." It's timing (the week after the ROH show where Kenny vs. Cody finally happens) and everything about it said finale, and they had no intention of it being one. CHIKARA never built anything up as "finale." This felt like a cheap stunt for attention to get me to watch their show if I wanted to find out what was the deal was going to be with Bullet Club from now on, and I got basically none of that. If they had said "season finale" that would be fine, but that's not what they said. They lied to me in order to get me to waste twenty-five minutes of my time to watch their stupid little sketch comedy show.
These guys are out for themselves. I'm not saying that isn't a smart business strategy or anything because it is smart, but if they wanted to do this right they would be giving this footage to ROH and New Japan to put on their shows, but they don't. They do it all to get their stupid sh*t over, and they've got two bookers who don't give enough of a sh*t to make sure that the stuff they're telling people to watch doesn't contradict essential facts of the business or make the promotion or other wrestlers look stupid. Instead they're making me slog through their goofy comedy bullsh*t in an attempt to understand key storylines in promotions and they're not giving me anything I wouldn't have already figured out on my own. So yeah. I'm pissed off that they wasted my time, and I think that people give this sh*t a pass because it's Bullet Club. If people want to be marks for Bullet Club, let them be marks for Bullet Club, but I'm sick of people trying to dress it up as anything other than just being marks. I'm tired of these stupid double-standards. It's the same way you are with Impact and people not acknowledging that the product is better now than it used to be.
when i complain about Impact is because people are actually judging without checking the shows or using jokes from 10 yrs ago, not because they don't think the product is better now, if someone watches it and doesn't like it, then someone doesn't like it, that ok, but at least watch it and give it a fair judgement for what it is. It sounds like you're annoyed at the fans JUST for liking the Bullet Club and because the BC are getting waay over without doing what YOU consider 'right'. It's all biases and double standards for everything and everyone, it's wrestling. I don't see you ranting about WWE fans giving that shitshow a pass and pretending not being marks themselves.

These two sentences are as true as yours above. One for you and one for me. I'm 100% there are enough people that would say this, because I assume that you're not the ONE person to dislike the Bullet Club.
So yeah. I'm pissed off that they wasted my time, and I think that people give this sh*t a pass because it's Gabe. If people want to be marks for Gabe let them be marks for Gabe, but I'm sick of people trying to dress it up as anything other than just being marks. I'm tired of these stupid double-standards.
So yeah. I'm pissed off that they wasted my time, and I think that people give this sh*t a pass because it's Impact. If people want to be marks for Impact, let them be marks for Impact, but I'm sick of people trying to dress it up as anything other than just being marks. I'm tired of these stupid double-standards.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by Big Red Machine » May 2nd, '18, 10:51

cero2k wrote: May 2nd, '18, 10:10
Big Red Machine wrote: May 1st, '18, 13:46

This was built up solely as "the finale." It's timing (the week after the ROH show where Kenny vs. Cody finally happens) and everything about it said finale, and they had no intention of it being one. CHIKARA never built anything up as "finale." This felt like a cheap stunt for attention to get me to watch their show if I wanted to find out what was the deal was going to be with Bullet Club from now on, and I got basically none of that. If they had said "season finale" that would be fine, but that's not what they said. They lied to me in order to get me to waste twenty-five minutes of my time to watch their stupid little sketch comedy show.
These guys are out for themselves. I'm not saying that isn't a smart business strategy or anything because it is smart, but if they wanted to do this right they would be giving this footage to ROH and New Japan to put on their shows, but they don't. They do it all to get their stupid sh*t over, and they've got two bookers who don't give enough of a sh*t to make sure that the stuff they're telling people to watch doesn't contradict essential facts of the business or make the promotion or other wrestlers look stupid. Instead they're making me slog through their goofy comedy bullsh*t in an attempt to understand key storylines in promotions and they're not giving me anything I wouldn't have already figured out on my own. So yeah. I'm pissed off that they wasted my time, and I think that people give this sh*t a pass because it's Bullet Club. If people want to be marks for Bullet Club, let them be marks for Bullet Club, but I'm sick of people trying to dress it up as anything other than just being marks. I'm tired of these stupid double-standards. It's the same way you are with Impact and people not acknowledging that the product is better now than it used to be.
when i complain about Impact is because people are actually judging without checking the shows or using jokes from 10 yrs ago, not because they don't think the product is better now, if someone watches it and doesn't like it, then someone doesn't like it, that ok, but at least watch it and give it a fair judgement for what it is. It sounds like you're annoyed at the fans JUST for liking the Bullet Club and because the BC are getting waay over without doing what YOU consider 'right'. It's all biases and double standards for everything and everyone, it's wrestling. I don't see you ranting about WWE fans giving that shitshow a pass and pretending not being marks themselves.

These two sentences are as true as yours above. One for you and one for me. I'm 100% there are enough people that would say this, because I assume that you're not the ONE person to dislike the Bullet Club.
So yeah. I'm pissed off that they wasted my time, and I think that people give this sh*t a pass because it's Gabe. If people want to be marks for Gabe let them be marks for Gabe, but I'm sick of people trying to dress it up as anything other than just being marks. I'm tired of these stupid double-standards.
So yeah. I'm pissed off that they wasted my time, and I think that people give this sh*t a pass because it's Impact. If people want to be marks for Impact, let them be marks for Impact, but I'm sick of people trying to dress it up as anything other than just being marks. I'm tired of these stupid double-standards.
You're not wrong (although I can't actually remember an instance of Gabe wasting people's time with people's time in this way. He's always been very deliberate with making something actually matter if he builds it up as a big deal), but I think the difference is that people have always known that those types of WWE fans existed (not sure if there is a name for them, but they're basically the WWE version of TNA Mecca posters). People used to throw the term "ROHBot" around for ROH fans but that accusation tended to come simply from people who didn't like the style, as any perusal of even the official ROH message board would show you that even among people who did like the style, praise of the promotion was not even close to being universal.
With these types of WWE and TNA fans I think people always knew they existed and just dismissed them. In a way, they weren't part of the (and I know this term is horrifically loaded) "Internet Wrestling Community." But fans who watched indies and Lucha and Puro were supposed to be "smarter" than that. Even in criticism of entire styles like ultra-violence it was generally understood that you either like the style or you didn't. I don't remember hearing too much about people who loved CZW but would sh*t on deathmatches when some IWA promotion or another did them. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember double standards within the indy/Puro/Lucha fanbases feeling so prominent.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by cero2k » May 3rd, '18, 10:10

Big Red Machine wrote: May 2nd, '18, 10:51
You're not wrong (although I can't actually remember an instance of Gabe wasting people's time with people's time in this way. He's always been very deliberate with making something actually matter if he builds it up as a big deal), but I think the difference is that people have always known that those types of WWE fans existed (not sure if there is a name for them, but they're basically the WWE version of TNA Mecca posters). People used to throw the term "ROHBot" around for ROH fans but that accusation tended to come simply from people who didn't like the style, as any perusal of even the official ROH message board would show you that even among people who did like the style, praise of the promotion was not even close to being universal.
With these types of WWE and TNA fans I think people always knew they existed and just dismissed them. In a way, they weren't part of the (and I know this term is horrifically loaded) "Internet Wrestling Community." But fans who watched indies and Lucha and Puro were supposed to be "smarter" than that. Even in criticism of entire styles like ultra-violence it was generally understood that you either like the style or you didn't. I don't remember hearing too much about people who loved CZW but would sh*t on deathmatches when some IWA promotion or another did them. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember double standards within the indy/Puro/Lucha fanbases feeling so prominent.
times have definitely changed, for the first time since the NWO i'm seeing random people in the streets with Bullet Club tshirts, almost 20 yrs and i never saw Cena/DX/Nexus/Punk tshirts in my small city, and now all of the sudden, Bullet Club all over the place, so I can firmly say that NJPW/ROH, at least Bullet Club, is not the smarky niche thing, so that same thing we have with WWE apologist is understandable that is reaching Bullet Club and beyond.

Regardless, i'm sure that even in the niche things like Indy/Puro/Lucha there has always been double standards too. AAA vs CMLL, NJPW vs AJPW vs NOAH, ROH vs CHIKARA vs PWG vs TNA, I think that as long as we have competition, there will always be a certain double standard, and let's face it, all those examples have their ups and downs. Bullet Club is not all bad and a lot of people love what's going on, a LOT of people LOVE Cody's heel gimmick and that doesn't make them marks or less smarter. i listen to Meltzer and Wade Keller on a weekly basis praise RAW or Smackdown and I can't just say they're marks with double standards.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by Big Red Machine » May 3rd, '18, 11:37

cero2k wrote: May 3rd, '18, 10:10
Big Red Machine wrote: May 2nd, '18, 10:51
You're not wrong (although I can't actually remember an instance of Gabe wasting people's time with people's time in this way. He's always been very deliberate with making something actually matter if he builds it up as a big deal), but I think the difference is that people have always known that those types of WWE fans existed (not sure if there is a name for them, but they're basically the WWE version of TNA Mecca posters). People used to throw the term "ROHBot" around for ROH fans but that accusation tended to come simply from people who didn't like the style, as any perusal of even the official ROH message board would show you that even among people who did like the style, praise of the promotion was not even close to being universal.
With these types of WWE and TNA fans I think people always knew they existed and just dismissed them. In a way, they weren't part of the (and I know this term is horrifically loaded) "Internet Wrestling Community." But fans who watched indies and Lucha and Puro were supposed to be "smarter" than that. Even in criticism of entire styles like ultra-violence it was generally understood that you either like the style or you didn't. I don't remember hearing too much about people who loved CZW but would sh*t on deathmatches when some IWA promotion or another did them. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember double standards within the indy/Puro/Lucha fanbases feeling so prominent.
times have definitely changed, for the first time since the NWO i'm seeing random people in the streets with Bullet Club tshirts, almost 20 yrs and i never saw Cena/DX/Nexus/Punk tshirts in my small city, and now all of the sudden, Bullet Club all over the place, so I can firmly say that NJPW/ROH, at least Bullet Club, is not the smarky niche thing, so that same thing we have with WWE apologist is understandable that is reaching Bullet Club and beyond.

Regardless, i'm sure that even in the niche things like Indy/Puro/Lucha there has always been double standards too. AAA vs CMLL, NJPW vs AJPW vs NOAH, ROH vs CHIKARA vs PWG vs TNA, I think that as long as we have competition, there will always be a certain double standard, and let's face it, all those examples have their ups and downs. Bullet Club is not all bad and a lot of people love what's going on, a LOT of people LOVE Cody's heel gimmick and that doesn't make them marks or less smarter. i listen to Meltzer and Wade Keller on a weekly basis praise RAW or Smackdown and I can't just say they're marks with double standards.
I guess I always figured that if someone was a pro wrestling fan it was because there was something inherent to pro wrestling (angles, promos, action, larger than life characters, or some combination thereof) that was drawing them, so if you got someone who only watched WWE to sit down and watch some other promotion that was doing whatever appealed to that fan just as well or better, they would like that other promotion now, too. They would (and I don't mean to be condescending by this, I'm just lacking a better term) "learn" that WWE's way of doing things was (probably) not the best option out there for the thing that appealed to them and they would become an indy fan as well rather than just a mainstream only fan and would become deprogrammed from Vince's way of looking at things... and so long as the the video quality was decent and the audio wasn't garbled or too quiet, anyone who wouldn't give non-WWE (and particularly indy) wrestling a chance wasn't actually a wrestling fan because a pro wrestling fan would want to seek out more pro wrestling that delivered to them a high quality version the aspect(s) of pro wrestling they enjoyed. In other words, that if you showed a WWE "mark" non-WWE wrestling, they'd become an indy "smark." It never occurred to me that if you showed them indy wrestling they'd just pick the stuff they like from that and become a mark for that stuff, too.


With the double-standard, while I can't speak to puro or Lucha, I guess I kind of figured that a lot of the "TNA Mecca" type of attitude, and to an extent some of indy deathmatch fan attitude (and in CZW in particular) was born out of a hatred for WWE, whereas a PWG or CHIKARA was born out a desire to be their own vision of wrestling, and ROH was born out of a shift away from an entire style of booking/presentation that was prevalent pretty much everywhere North America at the time so I figured that TNA and some of the ultraviolent groups would be prone to holding double standards, ROH and PWG and CHIKARA fans wouldn't because the nature of ROH would mean that its fans would be able to appreciate when others did things the "ROH (or, in their view "right") way," while for CHIKARA or PWG fans it wouldn't really be a double standard because there was something unique in the idea of what the promotion was trying to do that they could point to in order to explain "this is what makes it different" and therefore not a double standard (and that they, too, would enjoy "their" thing if someone else happened to do it, because that was what they were coming to CHIKARA/PWG for in the first place, as opposed to TNA Mecca type of fans of some ultraviolent fans who latched onto promotions because those promotionsweren't WWE or doing a non-hardcore WWE-style).

With the Cody thing, if he's stalling to get heat and he's getting cheered for it, then what is there left for a heel to do?
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by cero2k » May 3rd, '18, 13:28

ideally that is the case, and for the most part, I think that most wrestling fans would actually like some other wrestling when exposed to it, but that doesn't stop the tons of people that i've seen say that they don't like the 'production value' of anything outside of WWE. There will always be an excuse. But going by the first idea, I think that this is the case and now with wrestling being so easily accessible, we're seeing those WWE fans that already get excited for shitty WWE get completely amazed by something like Bullet Club and all the 'ONE FALL' shtick, but those are the mainstream fans that like the showbiz part of WWE, not the things you actually listed.

Double standard doesn't exactly have to be promotion vs promotion in a whole, but surely we've seen tons of Joe was better in ROH than TNA, when they were for the most part, the same thing. Generico vs Steen was soo much better in PWG than ROH. Fuck CZW but all hail Onita. Fuck no-charisma-Roddy in ROH, but everyone LOVES NXT Roddy. It's not all development or even booking, sometimes it's just a double standard.
With the Cody thing, if he's stalling to get heat and he's getting cheered for it, then what is there left for a heel to do?
but that's not the problem with Cody, that is fans cheering everything. Cody's antics are still good heel tactics, super basic old school things. And if anything else fails, punt a baby or be BJ Whitmer.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by Big Red Machine » May 3rd, '18, 18:05

cero2k wrote: May 3rd, '18, 13:28 ideally that is the case, and for the most part, I think that most wrestling fans would actually like some other wrestling when exposed to it, but that doesn't stop the tons of people that i've seen say that they don't like the 'production value' of anything outside of WWE. There will always be an excuse. But going by the first idea, I think that this is the case and now with wrestling being so easily accessible, we're seeing those WWE fans that already get excited for shitty WWE get completely amazed by something like Bullet Club and all the 'ONE FALL' shtick, but those are the mainstream fans that like the showbiz part of WWE, not the things you actually listed.
Which I feel kind of doens't make them "wrestling" fans, in a way. They're fans of the showbiz aspect or the idea of being a part of a fun chanting crowd. And I get that. I don't like most music, and particularly don't like most heavy metal, but I love seeing and reading the showmanship aspect of death metal... but I'd never mistake myself for a fan of metal. Similarly, I think these people aren't really "wrestling" fans.

cero2k wrote: May 3rd, '18, 13:28 Double standard doesn't exactly have to be promotion vs promotion in a whole, but surely we've seen tons of Joe was better in ROH than TNA, when they were for the most part, the same thing. Generico vs Steen was soo much better in PWG than ROH. Fuck CZW but all hail Onita. Fuck no-charisma-Roddy in ROH, but everyone LOVES NXT Roddy. It's not all development or even booking, sometimes it's just a double standard.
You're forgetting that everyone loved TNA Joe until Russo started to ruin him, and people really only fully turned on the idea of TNA Joe once the MEM stuff started. Because the original TNA Joe was ROH Joe, and that's the same Joe we got in NXT and on the WWE main roster, and every time he randomly showed up in PWG or IWA-MS. There was no double-standard. It was approving of Joe being used the right way and disapproving of Russo making him a whiner or drawing a penis on his face and having him run around with a knife.

NXT Roddy vs. ROH Roddy is people just not remembering that Roddy's promos steadily improved in the 2010s (getting the chance to cut promos in PWG, plus hanging out with Truth Martini in ROH are pretty clear markers in his development if you go back and look) so by the time he gets to NXT is a fine promo, but people's lasting memories of him in ROH are those wooden Gen. Next promos.

And saying that Steen vs. Generico was better in PWG than in ROH? Dude... are you trolling me? ROH MADE that feud. PWG was just mooching off of ROH, and had no story at all. ROH's was a year-long epic in 2010 that was so epic that they were able to go back to it in 2012 without losing a single once of the heat.

cero2k wrote: May 3rd, '18, 13:28
Big Red Machine wrote:With the Cody thing, if he's stalling to get heat and he's getting cheered for it, then what is there left for a heel to do?
but that's not the problem with Cody, that is fans cheering everything. Cody's antics are still good heel tactics, super basic old school things. And if anything else fails, punt a baby or be BJ Whitmer.
I'm not saying it's Cody's fault. This has been building for years on the indies (and for this one I do put the blame on PWG fans because they started it). It used to be that heels would get cheered for some things, but you could still do things like stall or tease a dive and then not do it to get booed, so the Bucks used to do their cartwheels and then do a back rake instead of the elbow or dropkick or whatever they used to do, and the PWG fans started cheering it, and then everyone else started doing it and people then just started cheering heel spots so now you can't do anything to get heat other than deny the crowd the visual of a hot chick, or be someone like Whitmer or Zack Gibson who the fans seem to have semi-randomly decided to despise to extreme degrees.
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