“Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 30th, '18, 12:14

I'm very glad that they're not portraying this a clean break and that Omega is just out of the group right away. That being said, if I had to guess, I would say that these guys (and probably specifically Kenny, Cody, and the Bucks) are the ones booking this rather than Gedo or Delirious or someone else in an actual office position, so giving Gedo credit for it is unwarranted.
I also dislike the fact that the Tongans, Yujiro, and Chase Owens were not here. It makes it feel like an ROH angle, not a New Japan angle. You could use this (and Tonga's promo on Omega from the G1) to break them off into their own group (this is all happening on Being The Elite, rather than, say, a Bullet Club show), but if you do that it's basically doom for most of those guys in terms of ever being in a main event again, even in a big tag, and it makes Yujiro and Owens so useless than you might was well just dump them.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by cero2k » Jan 30th, '18, 13:29

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 30th, '18, 12:14
I'm very glad that they're not portraying this a clean break and that Omega is just out of the group right away. That being said, if I had to guess, I would say that these guys (and probably specifically Kenny, Cody, and the Bucks) are the ones booking this rather than Gedo or Delirious or someone else in an actual office position, so giving Gedo credit for it is unwarranted.
I also dislike the fact that the Tongans, Yujiro, and Chase Owens were not here. It makes it feel like an ROH angle, not a New Japan angle. You could use this (and Tonga's promo on Omega from the G1) to break them off into their own group (this is all happening on Being The Elite, rather than, say, a Bullet Club show), but if you do that it's basically doom for most of those guys in terms of ever being in a main event again, even in a big tag, and it makes Yujiro and Owens so useless than you might was well just dump them.
it's a big thing going on in different levels now, I have to imagine that Delirious, Elite, and Gedo all had to work it together with Elite probably being the originators of the idea. the inclusion of Ibushi tells me that Gedo must be involved because Gedo would likely use Ibushi for other stuff otherwise. I think all 3 parties deserve a certain amount of credit

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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 30th, '18, 21:59

cero2k wrote:
Jan 30th, '18, 13:29
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 30th, '18, 12:14
I'm very glad that they're not portraying this a clean break and that Omega is just out of the group right away. That being said, if I had to guess, I would say that these guys (and probably specifically Kenny, Cody, and the Bucks) are the ones booking this rather than Gedo or Delirious or someone else in an actual office position, so giving Gedo credit for it is unwarranted.
I also dislike the fact that the Tongans, Yujiro, and Chase Owens were not here. It makes it feel like an ROH angle, not a New Japan angle. You could use this (and Tonga's promo on Omega from the G1) to break them off into their own group (this is all happening on Being The Elite, rather than, say, a Bullet Club show), but if you do that it's basically doom for most of those guys in terms of ever being in a main event again, even in a big tag, and it makes Yujiro and Owens so useless than you might was well just dump them.
it's a big thing going on in different levels now, I have to imagine that Delirious, Elite, and Gedo all had to work it together with Elite probably being the originators of the idea. the inclusion of Ibushi tells me that Gedo must be involved because Gedo would likely use Ibushi for other stuff otherwise. I think all 3 parties deserve a certain amount of credit
I think Gedo decided when the turn would happen and that Ibushi would be involved and left the Elite and Cody to fill in the blanks like a lazy sh*t.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by cero2k » Jan 30th, '18, 22:43

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 30th, '18, 21:59


I think Gedo decided when the turn would happen and that Ibushi would be involved and left the Elite and Cody to fill in the blanks like a lazy sh*t.
well, then more bookers should be lazy shits and trust their wrestlers with good quality programs. I'll take lazy shit over overdrawn booking any day

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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 30th, '18, 23:05

cero2k wrote:
Jan 30th, '18, 22:43
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 30th, '18, 21:59


I think Gedo decided when the turn would happen and that Ibushi would be involved and left the Elite and Cody to fill in the blanks like a lazy sh*t.
well, then more bookers should be lazy shits and trust their wrestlers with good quality programs. I'll take lazy shit over overdrawn booking any day
The right way to do it is by doing what Gabe said in one of his shoots (the Guest Booker, I think), which is basically that you'd be silly not to let the talent have input on these sorts of things in their own angles because 1) they know their characters at least as well as you do, 2) it doesn't matter where an idea comes from as long as it's a good idea, 3) it gets them more invested, 4) it makes them happier, and 5) if someone else comes up with a good idea for you to use then that means there is less work for you to do.


The problem is that Gedo is a lazy sh*t all the time and books all of his stuff like this. In this case he got lucky that 1)the wrestlers decided to pick up his slack, and 2), it was guys who had the ability to do so. Not everyone has the desire to do something like this, so if you book an angle for, say, Ishii and Goto where you assume they're going to fill in the blanks for you, you're probably going to be disappointed. You could also wind up with guys trying their hardest and coming up with crap (I'd trust a guy like Zack Ryder or Miz to make their own videos like this a lot more than I'd trust Roman Reigns or Seth Rollins or Michael Elgin none of whom strike me as having the personality to pull it off or the knowledge to know how to make it good, even if they did try their hardest.
If you are going to rely on the wrestlers to fill in your blanks, you do also need to give them guidance or else they might wind up building towards something that isn't what you wanted and you're stuck either doing what they built towards (which might screw up your larger plans) or just ignoring what they did and having things not make sense.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by cero2k » Jan 31st, '18, 09:58

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 30th, '18, 23:05

The right way to do it is by doing what Gabe said in one of his shoots (the Guest Booker, I think), which is basically that you'd be silly not to let the talent have input on these sorts of things in their own angles because 1) they know their characters at least as well as you do, 2) it doesn't matter where an idea comes from as long as it's a good idea, 3) it gets them more invested, 4) it makes them happier, and 5) if someone else comes up with a good idea for you to use then that means there is less work for you to do.


The problem is that Gedo is a lazy sh*t all the time and books all of his stuff like this. In this case he got lucky that 1)the wrestlers decided to pick up his slack, and 2), it was guys who had the ability to do so. Not everyone has the desire to do something like this, so if you book an angle for, say, Ishii and Goto where you assume they're going to fill in the blanks for you, you're probably going to be disappointed. You could also wind up with guys trying their hardest and coming up with crap (I'd trust a guy like Zack Ryder or Miz to make their own videos like this a lot more than I'd trust Roman Reigns or Seth Rollins or Michael Elgin none of whom strike me as having the personality to pull it off or the knowledge to know how to make it good, even if they did try their hardest.
If you are going to rely on the wrestlers to fill in your blanks, you do also need to give them guidance or else they might wind up building towards something that isn't what you wanted and you're stuck either doing what they built towards (which might screw up your larger plans) or just ignoring what they did and having things not make sense.
this is where I think he's not a lazy shit and he understands more than we give him credit for. I think he understands that some feuds need american style booking and some need japanese (which could totally be a reason why he lets the american style to the gaijins, he may not actually be all that knowledgeable about what gets over in the US). Ishii and Goto don't need blanks to fill because they don't need to, Japanese booking is rarely anything else than 'i want to fight you, and these are my arguments...", I've been watching stardom and some of the AJPW from last year, that's all there is, there's no twists and turns, no personal 'I thought we were friends" stuff, and I think that's what Japanese crowds like and Gedo knows that.

the way Gabe describes it the way that everyone should book and you would assume that everyone does that. booker still needs to have the overall direction of the company and championship, while taking input from the wrestlers on how the day to day booking would make sense. So i don't think Gedo would just jeopardize the NJPW-US plans and making Omega lose the title for the sake of a Bullet Club angle that chances are, will be the main event of the All In show

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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 31st, '18, 12:01

cero2k wrote:
Jan 31st, '18, 09:58
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 30th, '18, 23:05

The right way to do it is by doing what Gabe said in one of his shoots (the Guest Booker, I think), which is basically that you'd be silly not to let the talent have input on these sorts of things in their own angles because 1) they know their characters at least as well as you do, 2) it doesn't matter where an idea comes from as long as it's a good idea, 3) it gets them more invested, 4) it makes them happier, and 5) if someone else comes up with a good idea for you to use then that means there is less work for you to do.


The problem is that Gedo is a lazy sh*t all the time and books all of his stuff like this. In this case he got lucky that 1)the wrestlers decided to pick up his slack, and 2), it was guys who had the ability to do so. Not everyone has the desire to do something like this, so if you book an angle for, say, Ishii and Goto where you assume they're going to fill in the blanks for you, you're probably going to be disappointed. You could also wind up with guys trying their hardest and coming up with crap (I'd trust a guy like Zack Ryder or Miz to make their own videos like this a lot more than I'd trust Roman Reigns or Seth Rollins or Michael Elgin none of whom strike me as having the personality to pull it off or the knowledge to know how to make it good, even if they did try their hardest.
If you are going to rely on the wrestlers to fill in your blanks, you do also need to give them guidance or else they might wind up building towards something that isn't what you wanted and you're stuck either doing what they built towards (which might screw up your larger plans) or just ignoring what they did and having things not make sense.
this is where I think he's not a lazy shit and he understands more than we give him credit for. I think he understands that some feuds need american style booking and some need japanese (which could totally be a reason why he lets the american style to the gaijins, he may not actually be all that knowledgeable about what gets over in the US). Ishii and Goto don't need blanks to fill because they don't need to, Japanese booking is rarely anything else than 'i want to fight you, and these are my arguments...", I've been watching stardom and some of the AJPW from last year, that's all there is, there's no twists and turns, no personal 'I thought we were friends" stuff, and I think that's what Japanese crowds like and Gedo knows that.

the way Gabe describes it the way that everyone should book and you would assume that everyone does that. booker still needs to have the overall direction of the company and championship, while taking input from the wrestlers on how the day to day booking would make sense. So i don't think Gedo would just jeopardize the NJPW-US plans and making Omega lose the title for the sake of a Bullet Club angle that chances are, will be the main event of the All In show
And I'm saying this isn't good American-style booking, either. Also, Gedo's attempts at American-style booking, (Suzuki's second half of last year, for example) have stunk. "Jeopardizing" part of it, I would tend to agree with you, but Tama Tonga said that everything he and Kenny did in their match was all off the top of their heads and Gedo never told them to do anything like that. What if Tama Tonga had said something like "if you won't be a real leader for all of Bullet Club then I will!" That very well could have screwed things up. He shouldn't be leaving himself open to things.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by cero2k » Feb 1st, '18, 09:35

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 31st, '18, 12:01


And I'm saying this isn't good American-style booking, either. Also, Gedo's attempts at American-style booking, (Suzuki's second half of last year, for example) have stunk. "Jeopardizing" part of it, I would tend to agree with you, but Tama Tonga said that everything he and Kenny did in their match was all off the top of their heads and Gedo never told them to do anything like that. What if Tama Tonga had said something like "if you won't be a real leader for all of Bullet Club then I will!" That very well could have screwed things up. He shouldn't be leaving himself open to things.
Suzuki's second half of the year? you mean Yano vs Suzuki? that was 100% Japanese comedy wrestling.

If Tama Tonga would say something like that, it be a huge botch, but I think that both Omega and Tonga know the greater scope of the booking, told by Gedo, they know they their limits when it comes to promos. That is the trust you can put on your talent when you include them on booking ideas and they're professionals

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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 1st, '18, 09:55

cero2k wrote:
Feb 1st, '18, 09:35
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 31st, '18, 12:01


And I'm saying this isn't good American-style booking, either. Also, Gedo's attempts at American-style booking, (Suzuki's second half of last year, for example) have stunk. "Jeopardizing" part of it, I would tend to agree with you, but Tama Tonga said that everything he and Kenny did in their match was all off the top of their heads and Gedo never told them to do anything like that. What if Tama Tonga had said something like "if you won't be a real leader for all of Bullet Club then I will!" That very well could have screwed things up. He shouldn't be leaving himself open to things.
Suzuki's second half of the year? you mean Yano vs Suzuki? that was 100% Japanese comedy wrestling.
And Suzuki vs. Elgin, with all of the sh*t overbooking that everyone crapped on.

cero2k wrote:
Feb 1st, '18, 09:35
If Tama Tonga would say something like that, it be a huge botch, but I think that both Omega and Tonga know the greater scope of the booking, told by Gedo, they know they their limits when it comes to promos. That is the trust you can put on your talent when you include them on booking ideas and they're professionals
But that's not what Tonga said.
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by cero2k » Feb 1st, '18, 10:42

Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 1st, '18, 09:55
And Suzuki vs. Elgin, with all of the sh*t overbooking that everyone crapped on.

But that's not what Tonga said.
the lumberjack match, yes, that was bad, but I don't think that was intended to be 'americanized' booking

I don't remember what Tonga said specifically, but does her really not know what the scope of the booking is?

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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 1st, '18, 11:00

cero2k wrote:
Feb 1st, '18, 10:42
Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 1st, '18, 09:55
And Suzuki vs. Elgin, with all of the sh*t overbooking that everyone crapped on.

But that's not what Tonga said.
the lumberjack match, yes, that was bad, but I don't think that was intended to be 'americanized' booking
Dude. That's totally Americanized booking because they wouldn't have had interference otherwise. Interference itself has always been rare in Japan in the major promotions, and in a main event title match? Mostly unheard of. That's an American import. That match and the Yano match were a high point of that silly interference and over-gimmicking that took one of the top workers in the world and forced into these matches that were all but doomed to fail and pissed all over his title.
cero2k wrote:
Feb 1st, '18, 10:42
I don't remember what Tonga said specifically, but does her really not know what the scope of the booking is?
He said that they did it on their own, on the fly, and that Gedo never told them to do anything (which also shoots down the theory that the intra-Bullet Club tag match the night before was anything other than random comedy).
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by cero2k » Feb 2nd, '18, 09:22


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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 12th, '18, 11:01

From Saturday night's ROH TV Tapings:
Hidden text.
Cody says The BC is fine, one of The Bucks says it’s only fine with Kenny Omega. Scurll and The Bucks leave
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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by cero2k » Feb 12th, '18, 11:12

Big Red Machine wrote:
Feb 12th, '18, 11:01
From Saturday night's ROH TV Tapings:
Hidden text.
Cody says The BC is fine, one of The Bucks says it’s only fine with Kenny Omega. Scurll and The Bucks leave
i don't remember where i saw it, it's either ROH or the NJPW australia shows, but there was a booking of Cody/Scurll/Page as "The NEW Elite", i thought that was interesting.

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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by cero2k » Feb 20th, '18, 22:03

This has actually been really interesting.



and since I like reading too much into things, check out Tama Tonga's reaction to the pull apart and the whole Team Tonga. Also that first conversation between Matt and Cody could be part of the bucks rumor to move up and the Bucks vs Golden Lovers dream match Meltzer brought up.


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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - Being The Elite Ep. 90 (Post Sapporo 1.28 Angle)

Post by cero2k » Feb 20th, '18, 22:08

And while we're at it. Tonga started his own videos



I'm still calling that by the end of the year we see The Bullet Club, The Elite, and whatever Cody creates

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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by cero2k » Feb 25th, '18, 10:19

Scurll, following Honor Rising Night 2
Hidden text.

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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by cero2k » Apr 10th, '18, 10:18

Ep100 and it's called Finale


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Re: “Bullet Club Is Fine” - The Bullet Club Civil War Megathread

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 29th, '18, 15:32

So nothing was really resolved in any way, and all of the questions still remain. That was a huge waste of twenty-five minutes of my life.
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