The Hostile Takeover Match: How I would have done it.

[Big Red Machine]

I was watching the Hostile Takeover match to do a review (as requested by YCW) and something occurred to me: they did it all wrong! There were two major flaws in the booking here, both related to the way the whole “third man” thing was handled. The first was that not having the third man come out for almost the whole match really seemed to be done for no other reason than to build suspense. In order to not give the babyfaces the advantage, this also forced them to do a spot in the first minute or so of the match where Luger got injured and stretchered off (which didn’t look very good). The second (and more important one) is the concept of the third man itself. Everyone blames Heenan for the infamous “yeah, but who’s side is he on?” comment, but it was a logical question to ask (and it is completely in character for Heenan to question the integrity of a babyface). We knew that Hall and Nash had a third man who was going to join them who hadn’t come out yet… so it wasn’t that preposterous that Hogan could be the third man. If we know there are going to be three of them then the third man isn’t a swerve. The fourth man is.

If I were booking the match, I would have had it be Sting, Luger, & Savage vs. Hall, Nash, & Big Bubba Rogers (the third man had to be a guy who had spent a significant amount of time working for Vince, and had to be a big enough name to be significant, but not so big as to overshadow Hogan’s turn, and Bubba was not only one of the few guys who fit that description, plus he was talented). Then, when things are going crappy for the babyfaces (none of this silly Luger injury stuff… if he is advertised, you should have him wrestle!) and Hogan runs down the aisle, it is obvious that he is going to make the save… until he gets in the ring and immediately drops the leg on Savage.

[badnewzxl]

They didn't have Luger carted out to even the odds; they did it so the babyfaces could be at an even more distinct advantage when Hogan came out.

Maybe it's a case of don't fix what ain't broke, but that scenario with Bubba would have been simply AWFUL. You need to watch more WCW; there's absolutely no reason to tamper with what WAS done

[Big Red Machine]

They didn't have Luger carted out to even the odds; they did it so the babyfaces could be at an even more distinct advantage when Hogan came out.

Maybe it's a case of don't fix what ain't broke, but that scenario with Bubba would have been simply AWFUL. You need to watch more WCW; there's absolutely no reason to tamper with what WAS done

YOU need to rewatch the match. When Hogan came out, everyone was down. They were perfectly square.

How the hell would Luger being injured give the babyfaces an advantage?

And why would the scenario with Bubba have been awful. The nWo had tons of midcarders or jobbers. All that including Bubba would have done was given him a rub and helped elevate him.

[badnewzxl]

They didn't have Luger carted out to even the odds; they did it so the babyfaces could be at an even more distinct advantage when Hogan came out.

Maybe it's a case of don't fix what ain't broke, but that scenario with Bubba would have been simply AWFUL. You need to watch more WCW; there's absolutely no reason to tamper with what WAS done

YOU need to rewatch the match. When Hogan came out, everyone was down. They were perfectly square.

How the hell would Luger being injured give the babyfaces an advantage?

And why would the scenario with Bubba have been awful. The nWo had tons of midcarders or jobbers. All that including Bubba would have done was given him a rub and helped elevate him.

1. Im saying that if Luger was still out there, ppl would have KNOWN when Hogan came out that he was with the nWo. But when he did come out, bc Luger wasn't out there, it was easy for the fans to think that Hogan was actually still on WCW's side; just coming out to replace Luger. THAT's what ppl thought. How do I know? bc I WAS WATCHING IN 96; not just analyzing in hindsight.

2) Luger being hurt saved the babyfaces from looking even weaker; if Hall & Nash had beaten down the three top guys in WCW by themselves, it would have looked bad. Luger goes down, the odds get even; then the nWo's short cuts give THEM the advantage. So when Hogan comes out, there's even MORE reason to think he's on WCW's side.

3) yeah; they did have a bunch of weak guys in the nWo (well, actually just a couple: Bagwell, Wall Street, and Vincent) but NOT at this stage. At this point they weren't even the nWo yet, just the Outsiders. It would not have mae any damn sense for them to have Bubba. And if you actually watch WCW during the time when the nWo DID have all those midcarders you were talking about, Bubba was a guy they continuously let into the group then immediately threw out.

the nWo angle at Bash at the Beach does not need to be tampered with; it was perfect. What you're trying to do is make it "better" by making it more complicated. Why mess with something that is perfect? Why tamper with the greatest heel turn of all time?

[Big Red Machine]

They didn't have Luger carted out to even the odds; they did it so the babyfaces could be at an even more distinct advantage when Hogan came out.

Maybe it's a case of don't fix what ain't broke, but that scenario with Bubba would have been simply AWFUL. You need to watch more WCW; there's absolutely no reason to tamper with what WAS done

YOU need to rewatch the match. When Hogan came out, everyone was down. They were perfectly square.

How the hell would Luger being injured give the babyfaces an advantage?

And why would the scenario with Bubba have been awful. The nWo had tons of midcarders or jobbers. All that including Bubba would have done was given him a rub and helped elevate him.

1. Im saying that if Luger was still out there, ppl would have KNOWN when Hogan came out that he was with the nWo. But when he did come out, bc Luger wasn't out there, it was easy for the fans to think that Hogan was actually still on WCW's side; just coming out to replace Luger. THAT's what ppl thought. How do I know? bc I WAS WATCHING IN 96; not just analyzing in hindsight.

2) Luger being hurt saved the babyfaces from looking even weaker; if Hall & Nash had beaten down the three top guys in WCW by themselves, it would have looked bad. Luger goes down, the odds get even; then the nWo's short cuts give THEM the advantage. So when Hogan comes out, there's even MORE reason to think he's on WCW's side.

3) yeah; they did have a bunch of weak guys in the nWo (well, actually just a couple: Bagwell, Wall Street, and Vincent) but NOT at this stage. At this point they weren't even the nWo yet, just the Outsiders. It would not have mae any damn sense for them to have Bubba. And if you actually watch WCW during the time when the nWo DID have all those midcarders you were talking about, Bubba was a guy they continuously let into the group then immediately threw out.

the nWo angle at Bash at the Beach does not need to be tampered with; it was perfect. What you're trying to do is make it "better" by making it more complicated. Why mess with something that is perfect? Why tamper with the greatest heel turn of all time?

1. I am saying two things here. 1)If you are going to advertise Luger as being a part of this big match, don't have him be in the match for 90 seconds, then get taken out. It is cheap and unfair to the fans, and 2) if you had a third person on the nWo's side, and don't do the Luger injury, you still have that same effect with the Hogan turn, but no one is left scratching their head all match saying "why would they not bring the third guy out in the beginning?

2. The same exact situation would have been achieved by having a third guy in the nWo, except that you actually deliver what you promised (Sting, Savage, and Luger taking on Hall, Nash, & the third man).

More complicated? How is having a straight up six man tag team match with a turn at the end more complicated than having a six man tag team match where one of the teams only sends out two guys, and then someone from the other team gets injured 90 seconds in, then doing the same turn?

3. And if you put a guy like Bubba in a match like this and book him well, won't be a weak guy, but rather will be someone who is elevated up the card and made to look stronger.

[badnewzxl]

You're ruining the best heel turn in history, dude.

I'm gonna stop debating you here bc you obviously don't understand; bc you weren't watching. It's all out of context.

I'll just leave it up to guys like Dozer, Bob-0, and others who were actually watching during that period of time to prove my point. Your idea is an idea, but a useless one. It doesn't add a single thing to the match and takes away the major selling point of match (the mystery 3RD guy; not the mystery 4th guy).

To get YOUrR idea for the main event over, you'd have to have built Bossman in SOME way in the weeks leading up to it. Maybe if you explain to me how you would build him up to be strong enough to even be in the main event, then I'd understand your idea better. But if you're suggesting just throwing Bossman in there, then that's TNA's level of just plain whack and disappointing. How would you get the fans to buy into this?

[Big Red Machine]

You're ruining the best heel turn in history, dude.

I'm gonna stop debating you here bc you obviously don't understand; bc you weren't watching. It's all out of context.

I'll just leave it up to guys like Dozer, Bob-0, and others who were actually watching during that period of time to prove my point. Your idea is an idea, but a useless one. It doesn't add a single thing to the match and takes away the major selling point of match (the mystery 3RD guy; not the mystery 4th guy).

To get YOUrR idea for the main event over, you'd have to have built Bossman in SOME way in the weeks leading up to it. Maybe if you explain to me how you would build him up to be strong enough to even be in the main event, then I'd understand your idea better. But if you're suggesting just throwing Bossman in there, then that's TNA's level of just plain whack and disappointing. How would you get the fans to buy into this?

No, I wasn't watching at the time, but I did read up on the major feuds of WCW going into this show, and I watched all of the Outsiders promos/segments, so it isn't out of context.

Yes, the selling point of the match was the 3rd guy. It is impossible not to watch this show and understand it, as they kept talking it up all night. Everyone was wondering who the third man was... which is why having a fourth guy at all is a major swerve. Including a minor disappointment to add to major swerve is a tried and true booking tactic (assuming that you don't use it too often). I don't know if you have seen ROH's 7th Anniversary Show (or at least remember the hype for it), but one of the matches was billed as Dragon & a mystery partner vs. Bison Smith (w/Nana) & a mystery partner. Bison's mystery partner was the returning Jimmy Rave. Then Dragon came out and charged at the ring and got taken down by both heels and started to get beaten down. Then Grizzly Redwood's music hit, and he charged into the ring... and immediately got destroyed by Bison, and everyone in the crowd kind of turned to each other and said "that's it? The big, hyped up mystery partner was Grizzly Redwood?


Then Copacabana started playing, and Colt came out cleaned house and everyone went NUTS!

In part, the inclusion of Bossman is a set up for disappointment and to help create the swerve of the fourth man, but I also think that being revealed as the third man in such a hot angle would have helped push Bubba up the card instantly. He wouldn't really need to be build up because the angle is building him up.

I will admit that I am using the advantage of hindsight for one aspect of this, but it is for the sort of thing that a (competent) booker would have known about at the time, (it is only hindsight to us as fans), so I don't think that it really counts. Knowing what we know about the nWo and the way they operated (and a competent booker would have know this going into the angle), it seems odd to me that they would be prepared to fight fair (or ever at a disadvantage, on purpose). They had no way of knowing that Luger would get injured 90 seconds in, so they really came out to the ring down 3-on-2, with the possibility of Hogan coming out and evening things up. By having a fourth man, they are not only ready to fight unfairly, but by hyping up the third man, they have fooled WCW into having three guys while they, the heels, will have four (especially because no one in the WCW locker room knows that Hogan is going to turn, so they would not be suspicious if he went out to the ring). The nWo was known for its gang warfare, so creating a situation where they have the numbers advantage seems like their kind of thing.

[badnewzxl]

There's no need for the swerve, BRM; that's what I'm trying to tell you! Hogan's turn is big enough; the suspense around WHO the 3rd guy was is enough. What you're doing is a TNA overkill, bro. You don't need the bossman swerve bc it stops ppl from looking down the aisle and around the arena for the 3rd guy. Fans during the time didn't need all that; this was prolly the first major turn in wrestling history; it doesn't need any more tricks.

[Big Red Machine]

There's no need for the swerve, BRM; that's what I'm trying to tell you! Hogan's turn is big enough; the suspense around WHO the 3rd guy was is enough. What you're doing is a TNA overkill, bro. You don't need the bossman swerve bc it stops ppl from looking down the aisle and around the arena for the 3rd guy. Fans during the time didn't need all that; this was prolly the first major turn in wrestling history; it doesn't need any more tricks.

I see what you are saying, but as I said above, it seems ridiculous that the nWo would be willing to fight fair (never mind put themselves at a disadvantage), and it sucks that Luger didn't get to wrestle as advertised.

As for this being the first major turn in wrestling history... come on! Andre turning on Hogan? Larry Z turning on Bruno?

[badnewzxl]

There's no need for the swerve, BRM; that's what I'm trying to tell you! Hogan's turn is big enough; the suspense around WHO the 3rd guy was is enough. What you're doing is a TNA overkill, bro. You don't need the bossman swerve bc it stops ppl from looking down the aisle and around the arena for the 3rd guy. Fans during the time didn't need all that; this was prolly the first major turn in wrestling history; it doesn't need any more tricks.

I see what you are saying, but as I said above, it seems ridiculous that the nWo would be willing to fight fair (never mind put themselves at a disadvantage), and it sucks that Luger didn't get to wrestle as advertised.

As for this being the first major turn in wrestling history... come on! Andre turning on Hogan? Larry Z turning on Bruno?

ok, it was the third...in 20 years. Still doesn't need a decoy third guy

[cero2k]

I actually think that a third decoy could have been interesting, but it had to be a non-wrestler being "forced" to wrestle so at the end, he could simply grab the mic and say "are you all stupid, i'm not the third person, He is!!!" out comes hogan

[badnewzxl]

I actually think that a third decoy could have been interesting, but it had to be a non-wrestler being "forced" to wrestle so at the end, he could simply grab the mic and say "are you all stupid, i'm not the third person, He is!!!" out comes hogan

THAT MAY have worked; but Bossman???? That's absolutely ridiculous.

but I still think having ANY decoy would have ruined what they had. The hype for WEEKS had been "who's the third guy" and the minute that third guy showed up was the moment the fans were waiting for. You didn't need a swerve in 1996; it would have been excessive. The fans didn't need to be tricked just to be tricked again bc THEY WEREN'T use to being swerved. Of course in the post MNW days, such a thing is often times necessary; and that swerve COULD have worked in 96, but it would have ruined the angle bc it WAS NOT NEEDED. The same way TNA gets ppl's hopes up about Stings partner (teasing folks from the past only to have it be Joe; who's already on the roster) or Roode's manager (teasing Parker and Hart and Heenan then giving us Tracy Brooks). In those instances we got swerves that did NOTHING; that's how a feel a swerve in 96 would have been. It would have let the fans down so much they wouldn't have cared who the real third guy was bc fans during those days didn't have the access to dirt sheets and rumors that we do now; NO ONE expected Hogan to turn, so there was NO need for a swerve (esp not just to make sure Luger got to wrestle "as advertised"). Hogan's turn was more than enough of a payoff; there was no need for any swerve, decoy, or shenanigans.

And I'm admitting this: this is prolly the biggest moment in MY wrestling experience, so maybe I'm just being a stubborn mark. But I just don't see any use in changing this segment/match AT ALL; it was perfect in my book, the build, the execution, the pay off; EVERYTHING.

[Big Red Machine]

Hogan's turn would still have the same effect, but this eliminates the plot hole of why the nWo would willingly put themselves at a disadvantage and fight fair.

[badnewzxl]

Hogan's turn would still have the same effect, but this eliminates the plot hole of why the nWo would willingly put themselves at a disadvantage and fight fair.

No; it wouldn't have. That "plot hole" you speak of doesn't exist; Hall & Nash aren't at the disadvantage. The mystery of who the third guy was GAVE Hall & Nash the advantage bc the guys on the other team couldn't trust one another. In the weeks leading up to the match, Hall & Nash TOLD EVERYONE that the third guy was someone already in WCW; by NOT having the guy come out initially, they made Luger, Sting, and Savage trust one another less bc either of THEM could have been the third guy. the Outsiders were sacrificing physical equality for the psychological advantage.

Having a third guy come out (esp someone not even on the level with the rest of the guys in the match) would take that advantage away from the Outsiders. Plus, then Hogan would have been coming out to SAVE the Outsiders (making them look weak bc the odds were already even if you'd include Bubba) instead of coming out to JOIN them.

[Big Red Machine]

Hogan's turn would still have the same effect, but this eliminates the plot hole of why the nWo would willingly put themselves at a disadvantage and fight fair.

No; it wouldn't have. That "plot hole" you speak of doesn't exist; Hall & Nash aren't at the disadvantage. The mystery of who the third guy was GAVE Hall & Nash the advantage bc the guys on the other team couldn't trust one another. In the weeks leading up to the match, Hall & Nash TOLD EVERYONE that the third guy was someone already in WCW; by NOT having the guy come out initially, they made Luger, Sting, and Savage trust one another less bc either of THEM could have been the third guy. the Outsiders were sacrificing physical equality for the psychological advantage.

Having a third guy come out (esp someone not even on the level with the rest of the guys in the match) would take that advantage away from the Outsiders. Plus, then Hogan would have been coming out to SAVE the Outsiders (making them look weak bc the odds were already even if you'd include Bubba) instead of coming out to JOIN them.

The psychological advantage doesn't matter once the match starts, and neither, Savage, Sting, or Luger were going to betray WCW. A psychological avantage isn't going to matter once you start getting beaten down 3-on-2.

Hogan would still be coming out to join them. He is only saving them if they are at a disadvantage when he comes out. If you have Hogan come out when everyone is pretty much down from exhausting from a solid, competitive, equal match, Hogan is joining them, not saving them, and you have made Hall, Nash, and Bubba look good by being able to hang with guys like Sting, Savage, & Luger.

[KILLdozer]

Yea I must say I agree with Badnewz...To sum it all up:No. The psychological advantage is not lost at all once the match starts because any guy could have at any moment revealed himself as the third man. And Luger Savage or Sting would not betray WCW? Im sure the same was said about Hogan. I just dont see why there's anything that needs to be fixed here. Its one of if not the biggest shocks in wrestling history. It did what it was supposed to do and then some. And to say NWO wouldnt put themselves at a disadvantage,Is unfair in this instance because at the time we didn't know what they were about or all the gang style. I guess this is where the Hindsight you talk about comes into play.

[badnewzxl]

Hogan's turn would still have the same effect, but this eliminates the plot hole of why the nWo would willingly put themselves at a disadvantage and fight fair.

No; it wouldn't have. That "plot hole" you speak of doesn't exist; Hall & Nash aren't at the disadvantage. The mystery of who the third guy was GAVE Hall & Nash the advantage bc the guys on the other team couldn't trust one another. In the weeks leading up to the match, Hall & Nash TOLD EVERYONE that the third guy was someone already in WCW; by NOT having the guy come out initially, they made Luger, Sting, and Savage trust one another less bc either of THEM could have been the third guy. the Outsiders were sacrificing physical equality for the psychological advantage.

Having a third guy come out (esp someone not even on the level with the rest of the guys in the match) would take that advantage away from the Outsiders. Plus, then Hogan would have been coming out to SAVE the Outsiders (making them look weak bc the odds were already even if you'd include Bubba) instead of coming out to JOIN them.

The psychological advantage doesn't matter once the match starts, and neither, Savage, Sting, or Luger were going to betray WCW. A psychological avantage isn't going to matter once you start getting beaten down 3-on-2.

Hogan would still be coming out to join them. He is only saving them if they are at a disadvantage when he comes out. If you have Hogan come out when everyone is pretty much down from exhausting from a solid, competitive, equal match, Hogan is joining them, not saving them, and you have made Hall, Nash, and Bubba look good by being able to hang with guys like Sting, Savage, & Luger.

What the hell do you mean Savage, Sting, nor Luger would have turned against WCW? First of all, YOU don't know bc YOU weren't watching at the time. Secondly, THE ANGLE WAS RUN THAT WAY; Hall and Nash made it seem as though the third guy was one of the top WCW guys at the time (so NOT Bubba). So the three guys they were facing were among the top six potential guys (along with Flair, Giant, and Hogan).

The psychological advantage doesn't count once the match starts? It does when there's the potential that one of the guys on the other team is going to turn on his teammates! When Luger got injured, I thought he was maybe faking it so he could come out later and help Hall & Nash, making HIM the third guy. Sting could have been the third guy; he could have PURPOSELY hit the Stinger splash and taken Luger out so that he and the Outsiders could beat down Savage. Savage even could have been the third guy; given his explosive reputation and prior history with WWE. The psychological advantage would have ONLY gone out the window if you had a third guy come out WITH the Outsiders bc ppl would be wondering "who/where is the third guy?"

Furthermore, you didn't NEED to make Hall & Nash look strong bc they'd been beating up the entire WCW locker room by themselves for WEEKS; they didn't NEED their third guy yet (like they said before the match); that statement itself helped maintain their psychological advantage bc they were making sure their opponents were still looking over their shoulders, watching out for the third guy.

[Big Red Machine]

I see your point, I just don't think that psychological advantage really would have mattered in the ring. Sting and Savage certainly didn't show an mistrust of each other during the match. It just seems to me that not getting your ass kicked in a 3-on-2 situation is more important than a psychological advantage.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

[badnewzxl]

I see your point, I just don't think that psychological advantage really would have mattered in the ring. Sting and Savage certainly didn't show an mistrust of each other during the match. It just seems to me that not getting your a** kicked in a 3-on-2 situation is more important than a psychological advantage.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

fair enough