A heel promotion

[cero2k]

Was hearing Podcast of Honor today, they're talking about how everyone in ROH seems to be turning heel, and so I wondered, what would a promotion full of heels look like? what storylines could be they run?

[Bob-O]

If everyone is heel, than is anyone really a heel? I feel like it'd just be a promotion full of assholes trying to out-asshole one another.

But, the heel vs heel angle that immediately comes to mind is The Pillman/Austin gun thing... not sure who they were trying to get over, but it sure was fun!

I could absolutely see a power struggle angle working...

[Big Red Machine]

I imagine it'd be a sort of cheating free-for-all, with guys trying to get one up on each other in any way possible in a kind of Hobbesian society of constantly shifting alliances.

[Serujuunin]

I like heels who aren't about cheating and weaseling and things like that, but more like just dominating whomever they feel like, like a train just rolling through the roster and anyone in the way gets flattened. Or heels that bend the rules sometimes just generally just win because they're better, not because they've cheated.

The cheating, weaselly heel is overdone for me, I think, so a promotion with some different archetypes of antagonistic characters would be something I would be interested in seeing.

[Big Red Machine]

I like heels who aren't about cheating and weaseling and things like that, but more like just dominating whomever they feel like, like a train just rolling through the roster and anyone in the way gets flattened. Or heels that bend the rules sometimes just generally just win because they're better, not because they've cheated.

The cheating, weaselly heel is overdone for me, I think, so a promotion with some different archetypes of antagonistic characters would be something I would be interested in seeing.

THIS. Which is just one of the reasons why the Gabe Sapolsky 2004-2008 "golden era" of ROH and the 2010-2011 Pearce/Delirious eras are two of my favorite eras of any promotion ever, and why I hold Gabe as a booker in such high regard.

One of the favorite ideas for a wrestler character I've ever heard was Chris Everlast's EWA character, who was heel who might attack someone after a match because he's angry and might be a huge asshole or sucker punch someone backstage... but he would never cheat, because he would never believe that he needed to.

[Serujuunin]

I like heels who aren't about cheating and weaseling and things like that, but more like just dominating whomever they feel like, like a train just rolling through the roster and anyone in the way gets flattened. Or heels that bend the rules sometimes just generally just win because they're better, not because they've cheated.

The cheating, weaselly heel is overdone for me, I think, so a promotion with some different archetypes of antagonistic characters would be something I would be interested in seeing.

THIS. Which is just one of the reasons why the Gabe Sapolsky 2004-2008 "golden era" or ROH and the 2010-2011 Pearce/Delirious eras are two of my favorite eras of any promotion ever, and why I hold Gabe as a booker in such high regard.

One of the favorite ideas for a wrestler character I've ever heard was Chris Everlast's EWA character, who was heel who might attack someone after a match because he's angry and might be a huge asshole or sucker punch someone backstage... but he would never cheat, because he would never believe that he needed to.

I'd like to see a heel take on a "redemption story", or a quest to prove oneself after a big loss. We see it a lot in babyfaces and it works out well, but seeing a heel go on a run of domination saying "it seems you've all forgotten who I am, let me remind you".

If you're writing a protagonist properly, all the things you do with them should be able to be done with an antagonist too. To me, in wrestling, that means you should be able to do all the things with a heel that you can do with a babyface, just with a different coat of paint on it.

[Big Red Machine]

I like heels who aren't about cheating and weaseling and things like that, but more like just dominating whomever they feel like, like a train just rolling through the roster and anyone in the way gets flattened. Or heels that bend the rules sometimes just generally just win because they're better, not because they've cheated.

The cheating, weaselly heel is overdone for me, I think, so a promotion with some different archetypes of antagonistic characters would be something I would be interested in seeing.

THIS. Which is just one of the reasons why the Gabe Sapolsky 2004-2008 "golden era" or ROH and the 2010-2011 Pearce/Delirious eras are two of my favorite eras of any promotion ever, and why I hold Gabe as a booker in such high regard.

One of the favorite ideas for a wrestler character I've ever heard was Chris Everlast's EWA character, who was heel who might attack someone after a match because he's angry and might be a huge asshole or sucker punch someone backstage... but he would never cheat, because he would never believe that he needed to.

I'd like to see a heel take on a "redemption story", or a quest to prove oneself after a big loss. We see it a lot in babyfaces and it works out well, but seeing a heel go on a run of domination saying "it seems you've all forgotten who I am, let me remind you".

If you're writing a protagonist properly, all the things you do with them should be able to be done with an antagonist too. To me, in wrestling, that means you should be able to do all the things with a heel that you can do with a babyface, just with a different coat of paint on it.

New Japan is kind of doing an abbreviated version of that in the G1 with New Japan, and wXw seems to be heading that way with The Crown in their tag division. I'm struggling to think of any full-blown real-life versions of it off the top of my head other than arguably Mark Henry's big heel world title push, but I'm sure it's happened. I did it with a couple of different heels in my Raw 1000 and Beyond fantasy booking.

[Serujuunin]

THIS. Which is just one of the reasons why the Gabe Sapolsky 2004-2008 "golden era" or ROH and the 2010-2011 Pearce/Delirious eras are two of my favorite eras of any promotion ever, and why I hold Gabe as a booker in such high regard.

One of the favorite ideas for a wrestler character I've ever heard was Chris Everlast's EWA character, who was heel who might attack someone after a match because he's angry and might be a huge asshole or sucker punch someone backstage... but he would never cheat, because he would never believe that he needed to.

I'd like to see a heel take on a "redemption story", or a quest to prove oneself after a big loss. We see it a lot in babyfaces and it works out well, but seeing a heel go on a run of domination saying "it seems you've all forgotten who I am, let me remind you".

If you're writing a protagonist properly, all the things you do with them should be able to be done with an antagonist too. To me, in wrestling, that means you should be able to do all the things with a heel that you can do with a babyface, just with a different coat of paint on it.

New Japan is kind of doing an abbreviated version of that in the G1 with New Japan, and wXw seems to be heading that way with The Crown in their tag division. I'm struggling to think of any full-blown real-life versions of it off the top of my head other than arguably Mark Henry's big heel world title push, but I'm sure it's happened. I did it with a couple of different heels in my Raw 1000 and Beyond fantasy booking.

I'm not even really sure Henry's push counts, but it's definitely the closest there is in WWE in my memory, because they don't seem to like to play with character archetypes too much and make things interesting.

I'm waiting for the G1 to be finished so I can watch the whole thing in one or two sittings, so I will get back to you (if I remember... which is unlikely).

[Big Red Machine]

I'd like to see a heel take on a "redemption story", or a quest to prove oneself after a big loss. We see it a lot in babyfaces and it works out well, but seeing a heel go on a run of domination saying "it seems you've all forgotten who I am, let me remind you".

If you're writing a protagonist properly, all the things you do with them should be able to be done with an antagonist too. To me, in wrestling, that means you should be able to do all the things with a heel that you can do with a babyface, just with a different coat of paint on it.

New Japan is kind of doing an abbreviated version of that in the G1 with New Japan, and wXw seems to be heading that way with The Crown in their tag division. I'm struggling to think of any full-blown real-life versions of it off the top of my head other than arguably Mark Henry's big heel world title push, but I'm sure it's happened. I did it with a couple of different heels in my Raw 1000 and Beyond fantasy booking.

I'm not even really sure Henry's push counts, but it's definitely the closest there is in WWE in my memory, because they don't seem to like to play with character archetypes too much and make things interesting.

I'm waiting for the G1 to be finished so I can watch the whole thing in one or two sittings, so I will get back to you (if I remember... which is unlikely).

You can't watch it in one or two sittings. Even if you just watch the tournament matches, it's still 91 matches.

[Bob-O]

I'd like to see a heel take on a "redemption story", or a quest to prove oneself after a big loss. We see it a lot in babyfaces and it works out well, but seeing a heel go on a run of domination saying "it seems you've all forgotten who I am, let me remind you".

Baszler.

[Serujuunin]

New Japan is kind of doing an abbreviated version of that in the G1 with New Japan, and wXw seems to be heading that way with The Crown in their tag division. I'm struggling to think of any full-blown real-life versions of it off the top of my head other than arguably Mark Henry's big heel world title push, but I'm sure it's happened. I did it with a couple of different heels in my Raw 1000 and Beyond fantasy booking.

I'm not even really sure Henry's push counts, but it's definitely the closest there is in WWE in my memory, because they don't seem to like to play with character archetypes too much and make things interesting.

I'm waiting for the G1 to be finished so I can watch the whole thing in one or two sittings, so I will get back to you (if I remember... which is unlikely).

You can't watch it in one or two sittings. Even if you just watch the tournament matches, it's still 91 matches.

Well, more than one or two, whatever it takes. It just helps me to keep everyone straight to binge it. If I watched it as it came out, I'd forget stuff, and who people were, because I'm not super familiar with everyone. I just know names from the wrestling zeitgeist lol.

[Serujuunin]

I'd like to see a heel take on a "redemption story", or a quest to prove oneself after a big loss. We see it a lot in babyfaces and it works out well, but seeing a heel go on a run of domination saying "it seems you've all forgotten who I am, let me remind you".

Baszler.

Baszler didn't have that effect for me because I didn't feel like she was any less of a badass having lost (I assume this is her feud with Kairi? And if I remember correctly, didn't she win it right back?)

And then she started venturing into the stereotypical heel role with the Horsewomen backing her up, and then I lost interest.

[Bob-O]

I'd like to see a heel take on a "redemption story", or a quest to prove oneself after a big loss. We see it a lot in babyfaces and it works out well, but seeing a heel go on a run of domination saying "it seems you've all forgotten who I am, let me remind you".

Baszler.

Baszler didn't have that effect for me because I didn't feel like she was any less of a badass having lost (I assume this is her feud with Kairi? And if I remember correctly, didn't she win it right back?)

And then she started venturing into the stereotypical heel role with the Horsewomen backing her up, and then I lost interest.

Yep, with Kairi. I feel like she was brought down a peg in that loss, after all the shit she talked and having traded wins/losses before. Nothing about being badass, more about the playgound bully getting knocked out and setting out to prove it was luck. Sure she's got the Horsewomen now, but I feel like the only ~big~ match she needed them was the cage match with Io, otherwise that loss to Kairi is the only time things ever felt out of her personal control.

Yeah... I mean, it wasn't a LONG journey back, but she did go on a short quest to prove herself after a big loss all while maintaining her heel status. I believe she even said "it seems you've all forgotten who I am" in that angle verbatim.

[Big Red Machine]

Baszler.

Baszler didn't have that effect for me because I didn't feel like she was any less of a badass having lost (I assume this is her feud with Kairi? And if I remember correctly, didn't she win it right back?)

And then she started venturing into the stereotypical heel role with the Horsewomen backing her up, and then I lost interest.

Yep, with Kairi. I feel like she was brought down a peg in that loss, after all the shit she talked and having traded wins/losses before. Nothing about being badass, more about the playgound bully getting knocked out and setting out to prove it was luck. Sure she's got the Horsewomen now, but I feel like the only ~big~ match she needed them was the cage match with Io, otherwise that loss to Kairi is the only time things ever felt out of her personal control.

Yeah... I mean, it wasn't a LONG journey back, but she did go on a short quest to prove herself after a big loss all while maintaining her heel status. I believe she even said "it seems you've all forgotten who I am" in that angle verbatim.

They helped her score a dalk in the match where she win the belt back, too.

[Serujuunin]

Baszler didn't have that effect for me because I didn't feel like she was any less of a badass having lost (I assume this is her feud with Kairi? And if I remember correctly, didn't she win it right back?)

And then she started venturing into the stereotypical heel role with the Horsewomen backing her up, and then I lost interest.

Yep, with Kairi. I feel like she was brought down a peg in that loss, after all the shit she talked and having traded wins/losses before. Nothing about being badass, more about the playgound bully getting knocked out and setting out to prove it was luck. Sure she's got the Horsewomen now, but I feel like the only ~big~ match she needed them was the cage match with Io, otherwise that loss to Kairi is the only time things ever felt out of her personal control.

Yeah... I mean, it wasn't a LONG journey back, but she did go on a short quest to prove herself after a big loss all while maintaining her heel status. I believe she even said "it seems you've all forgotten who I am" in that angle verbatim.

They helped her score a dalk in the match where she win the belt back, too.

I assume you mean a fall?

I remember all of this, but I didn't get the feeling of needing to prove herself... I might have to watch it again, but I got a very different feel. To use your playground bully analogy, I felt like she was more insecure having been beaten, and it was more of an attempt to prove that hey, I'm still as badass as I say I am. Having the Horsewomen contribute to her gaining a fall hurt the whole thing for me too.

It wouldn't surprise me if she said that though, and I forgot that on a conscious level but not a subconscious level (the more I start writing again, the more I say things and then realize I saw it somewhere but forgot where).

This angle was definitely the closest feel to what I'm talking about that I've ever seen, but that being said, I do only watch WWE so my sample size is very small.

[Big Red Machine]

Yep, with Kairi. I feel like she was brought down a peg in that loss, after all the shit she talked and having traded wins/losses before. Nothing about being badass, more about the playgound bully getting knocked out and setting out to prove it was luck. Sure she's got the Horsewomen now, but I feel like the only ~big~ match she needed them was the cage match with Io, otherwise that loss to Kairi is the only time things ever felt out of her personal control.

Yeah... I mean, it wasn't a LONG journey back, but she did go on a short quest to prove herself after a big loss all while maintaining her heel status. I believe she even said "it seems you've all forgotten who I am" in that angle verbatim.

They helped her score a dalk in the match where she win the belt back, too.

I assume you mean a fall?

I remember all of this, but I didn't get the feeling of needing to prove herself... I might have to watch it again, but I got a very different feel. To use your playground bully analogy, I felt like she was more insecure having been beaten, and it was more of an attempt to prove that hey, I'm still as badass as I say I am. Having the Horsewomen contribute to her gaining a fall hurt the whole thing for me too.

It wouldn't surprise me if she said that though, and I forgot that on a conscious level but not a subconscious level (the more I start writing again, the more I say things and then realize I saw it somewhere but forgot where).

This angle was definitely the closest feel to what I'm talking about that I've ever seen, but that being said, I do only watch WWE so my sample size is very small.

Yes. I meant "fall." Now y'all know why I rarely do this from my phone.


If the "playground bully" thing doesn't work for you, I'm not sure you'll really ever find something like what you're looking for, as doing it without some sort of extra baggage to make it heelish feels very babyface because it is, by definition, a redemption story. Every non "playground bully" example I can think of inevitably results in a quick babyface turn (we can add the 2007 Briscoes tag title run to this list as well).

[Serujuunin]

They helped her score a dalk in the match where she win the belt back, too.

I assume you mean a fall?

I remember all of this, but I didn't get the feeling of needing to prove herself... I might have to watch it again, but I got a very different feel. To use your playground bully analogy, I felt like she was more insecure having been beaten, and it was more of an attempt to prove that hey, I'm still as badass as I say I am. Having the Horsewomen contribute to her gaining a fall hurt the whole thing for me too.

It wouldn't surprise me if she said that though, and I forgot that on a conscious level but not a subconscious level (the more I start writing again, the more I say things and then realize I saw it somewhere but forgot where).

This angle was definitely the closest feel to what I'm talking about that I've ever seen, but that being said, I do only watch WWE so my sample size is very small.

Yes. I meant "fall." Now y'all know why I rarely do this from my phone.


If the "playground bully" thing doesn't work for you, I'm not sure you'll really ever find something like what you're looking for, as doing it without some sort of extra baggage to make it heelish feels very babyface because it is, by definition, a redemption story. Every non "playground bully" example I can think of inevitably results in a quick babyface turn (we can add the 2007 Briscoes tag title run to this list as well).

I know, I know.

Maybe I expect too much out of my wrestling because of what I expect out of fiction.

But is it really so much to ask for for them to try new spins on characters? Sh*t gets boring quick.

[Big Red Machine]

I assume you mean a fall?

I remember all of this, but I didn't get the feeling of needing to prove herself... I might have to watch it again, but I got a very different feel. To use your playground bully analogy, I felt like she was more insecure having been beaten, and it was more of an attempt to prove that hey, I'm still as badass as I say I am. Having the Horsewomen contribute to her gaining a fall hurt the whole thing for me too.

It wouldn't surprise me if she said that though, and I forgot that on a conscious level but not a subconscious level (the more I start writing again, the more I say things and then realize I saw it somewhere but forgot where).

This angle was definitely the closest feel to what I'm talking about that I've ever seen, but that being said, I do only watch WWE so my sample size is very small.

Yes. I meant "fall." Now y'all know why I rarely do this from my phone.


If the "playground bully" thing doesn't work for you, I'm not sure you'll really ever find something like what you're looking for, as doing it without some sort of extra baggage to make it heelish feels very babyface because it is, by definition, a redemption story. Every non "playground bully" example I can think of inevitably results in a quick babyface turn (we can add the 2007 Briscoes tag title run to this list as well).

I know, I know.

Maybe I expect too much out of my wrestling because of what I expect out of fiction.

But is it really so much to ask for for them to try new spins on characters? Sh*t gets boring quick.

I think the story you're asking for is inherently a babyface thing to do. The heel needs to have that bullying aspect or to cheat or to be a big monster and kill people after the match or injure them in the process of beating them, because otherwise what you've got is someone who suffers a defeat but then vows to do better and rededicates himself/herself to his/her craft and fulfills that vow. That's an aspirational character, and thus one we want to identify with. Someone who goes on this journey almost gets turned babyface by default.
I think the best you'll get is either Mark Henry's first world title run, current Baszler, or maybe Roderick Strong in ROH from about May 2010 until he loses the world title, bouncing back from the loss to Tyler and hooking up with the House of Truth and then winning the title from Tyler and having a strong run even as a heel.
(And also, if I might toot my own horn, my booking of Kane in 2013 in my fantasy booking thread, which has a lot of bully/monster stuff, but that is also key to the story I tell with him rather than just generic heel antics.)

If you're looking for new spins on characters, I've enjoyed a lot of what I've seen of the early EVOLVE shows, but everything there is very different from anything else you'll ever see in wrestling in terms of style and tone.

[Serujuunin]

Yes. I meant "fall." Now y'all know why I rarely do this from my phone.


If the "playground bully" thing doesn't work for you, I'm not sure you'll really ever find something like what you're looking for, as doing it without some sort of extra baggage to make it heelish feels very babyface because it is, by definition, a redemption story. Every non "playground bully" example I can think of inevitably results in a quick babyface turn (we can add the 2007 Briscoes tag title run to this list as well).

I know, I know.

Maybe I expect too much out of my wrestling because of what I expect out of fiction.

But is it really so much to ask for for them to try new spins on characters? Sh*t gets boring quick.

I think the story you're asking for is inherently a babyface thing to do. The heel needs to have that bullying aspect or to cheat or to be a big monster and kill people after the match or injure them in the process of beating them, because otherwise what you've got is someone who suffers a defeat but then vows to do better and rededicates himself/herself to his/her craft and fulfills that vow. That's an aspirational character, and thus one we want to identify with. Someone who goes on this journey almost gets turned babyface by default.
I think the best you'll get is either Mark Henry's first world title run, current Baszler, or maybe Roderick Strong in ROH from about May 2010 until he loses the world title, bouncing back from the loss to Tyler and hooking up with the House of Truth and then winning the title from Tyler and having a strong run even as a heel.
(And also, if I might toot my own horn, my booking of Kane in 2013 in my fantasy booking thread, which has a lot of bully/monster stuff, but that is also key to the story I tell with him rather than just generic heel antics.)

If you're looking for new spins on characters, I've enjoyed a lot of what I've seen of the early EVOLVE shows, but everything there is very different from anything else you'll ever see in wrestling in terms of style and tone.

Now you've challenged me to write a character where it isn't a babyface thing lol. I think it's a bit more forgiving in other forms of entertaining and storytelling, for some reason I have yet to pinpoint. I've just kinda noticed in my musings that characters that would come off pretty well in fiction writing wouldn't necessarily translate so well into wrestling. (I've gotten hard into writing again after a few years of a drought, if you haven't noticed lol)

I will agree that Baszler was the closest I can think of to what I am imagining, but they kind of ruined it when they had her buddies come back her up.

Is there somewhere I can watch the early EVOLVE shows that isn't of a questionable legal status, and is available in Canada? I'll admit I wasn't super impressed with the one that was on the Network recently, but maybe it's just because I wasn't invested in anyone except the NXT guys. That's just the selection bias from only watching WWE programming.

[Big Red Machine]

I know, I know.

Maybe I expect too much out of my wrestling because of what I expect out of fiction.

But is it really so much to ask for for them to try new spins on characters? Sh*t gets boring quick.

I think the story you're asking for is inherently a babyface thing to do. The heel needs to have that bullying aspect or to cheat or to be a big monster and kill people after the match or injure them in the process of beating them, because otherwise what you've got is someone who suffers a defeat but then vows to do better and rededicates himself/herself to his/her craft and fulfills that vow. That's an aspirational character, and thus one we want to identify with. Someone who goes on this journey almost gets turned babyface by default.
I think the best you'll get is either Mark Henry's first world title run, current Baszler, or maybe Roderick Strong in ROH from about May 2010 until he loses the world title, bouncing back from the loss to Tyler and hooking up with the House of Truth and then winning the title from Tyler and having a strong run even as a heel.
(And also, if I might toot my own horn, my booking of Kane in 2013 in my fantasy booking thread, which has a lot of bully/monster stuff, but that is also key to the story I tell with him rather than just generic heel antics.)

If you're looking for new spins on characters, I've enjoyed a lot of what I've seen of the early EVOLVE shows, but everything there is very different from anything else you'll ever see in wrestling in terms of style and tone.

Now you've challenged me to write a character where it isn't a babyface thing lol. I think it's a bit more forgiving in other forms of entertaining and storytelling, for some reason I have yet to pinpoint. I've just kinda noticed in my musings that characters that would come off pretty well in fiction writing wouldn't necessarily translate so well into wrestling. (I've gotten hard into writing again after a few years of a drought, if you haven't noticed lol)

I will agree that Baszler was the closest I can think of to what I am imagining, but they kind of ruined it when they had her buddies come back her up.

Is there somewhere I can watch the early EVOLVE shows that isn't of a questionable legal status, and is available in Canada? I'll admit I wasn't super impressed with the one that was on the Network recently, but maybe it's just because I wasn't invested in anyone except the NXT guys. That's just the selection bias from only watching WWE programming.

EVOLVE's Club WWN website (also gives you SHIMMER, SHINE, FIP, DGUSA archives, and one or two other things).
Once again, I will warn you that early EVOLVE is one of the most different things you'll ever see. If you're not particularly spoiler-sensitive you might want to read my reviews first, or at least certain paragraphs like my overall review from show 1, or following from show 2:

TONY KOZINA TALKS TO KYLE O'REILLY BACKSTAGE ABOUT... SOMETHING - Kyle is worried a contract of some sort or something. Kozina tells him that it's all part of the business, but no matter what else Kyle has going on, he has to stay focused on his match tonight because wrestling is more mental than it is physical. I get what Gabe is going for with the realism here, but the way he is going about it, where the many of the details in the conversation don't actually matter because it's really about the message that the segment is getting across (in this case that Kyle most stay focused on his match) is so at odds with the way we've all learned to watch pro wrestling that it's very hard for me process the fact that I don't need to- and likely even am not supposed to- understand the details of the actual subject of the conversation.

I'm not saying this as discouragement or to toot my own horn, but rather to prepare you with things I wish I had been told in advance going in.


In general, if you're looking for someone who isn't afraid to put heels over clean, Gabe (especially his ROH stuff and most of his EVOLVE run other than the past year or so) is definitely the top choice.