BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

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Big Red Machine
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BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by Big Red Machine » Sep 13th, '11, 00:49

OPENING SEGMENT- Hey, look, it’s Bret Hart randomly… Del Rio telling Bret that he hires illegal Canadian migrant workers to clean his house is the funniest thing I have heard in a non-CHIKARA ring in a very long time (maybe since Austin Aries referred to Petey Williams as “my little one trick pony”). Other than that, I really wasn’t into this segment much.

JOHN MORRISON & ALEX RILEY vs. JACK SWAGGER & DOLPH ZIGGLER (w/Vickie Guerrero)- 3.5/10. Swagger got pinned WAY too quickly. They could have given this match five more minutes and done the same finish, and it would have been MUCH better.

MIZ & R-TRUTH PROMO- good stuff that set up some stuff for the PPV, and also got a good laugh in.

KOFI KINGSTON vs. THE MIZ (w/R-Truth)- 5.5/10

TEDDY, VICKIE, & KELLY KELLY BACKSTAGE- Good segment, and I am looking forward to the 4 way match at Night of Champions.

OTUNGA & MCGILLICUTTY vs. JERRY LAWLER & SHEAMUS- Glorified squash. What is the purpose of this? All it does is make Otunga & McGillicutty look like Punks.

DEL RIO & RICARDO RODRIGUEZ BACKSTAGE- Um… okay…

JOHN CENA & BRET HART vs. ALBERTO DEL RIO & RICARDO RODRIGUEZ- 2/10. I don’t want to give this a dud because I enjoyed the comedy from Cena and Rodriguez, and there were no botches in the match, but it was served NO PURPOSE WHATSOEVER other than getting a cheap pop for Bret hitting a sharpshooter. I honestly think that this show would have turned out better if Bret hadn’t been on it, as they would have had to do something useful to build to the title match.

KELLY KELLY vs. VICKIE GUERRERO (w/Dolph Ziggler)- that’s it. I’ve had it. NEGATIVE 3/10! The Ziggler-Swagger stuff was good, but the booking here was silly. Kelly Kelly, the Divas Champion… needs to get a roll up on a distracted opponent to pin VICKIE GUERRERO?! WTF? And Kelly only had three moves in this match… and botched one of them, and almost botched a second!
MARK HENRY PROMO- okay

RANDY ORTON vs. CODY RHODES- Didn’t we JUST have this match on Smackdown? Anyway, this wasn’t very good at all. 5.5/10

TRIPLE H-CM PUNK CONFRONTATION- eh. This is just debates that I have had with some of you here on the forum. I don’t need to hear it from Punk and Triple H. Punk breaking kayfabe also annoyed me. The interesting part here, though, is that there is clearly a third party involved, which should be interesting.

Overall, Raw was very bad this week. Definitely the worst Raw since Punk’s worked shoot.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by cero2k » Sep 13th, '11, 01:09

Big Red Machine wrote: JOHN MORRISON & ALEX RILEY vs. JACK SWAGGER & DOLPH ZIGGLER (w/Vickie Guerrero)- 3.5/10. Swagger got pinned WAY too quickly. They could have given this match five more minutes and done the same finish, and it would have been MUCH better.

KELLY KELLY vs. VICKIE GUERRERO (w/Dolph Ziggler)- that’s it. I’ve had it. NEGATIVE 3/10! The Ziggler-Swagger stuff was good, but the booking here was silly. Kelly Kelly, the Divas Champion… needs to get a roll up on a distracted opponent to pin VICKIE GUERRERO?! WTF? And Kelly only had three moves in this match… and botched one of them, and almost botched a second!
MARK HENRY PROMO- okay
waaay to much shit going on outside the ring with these three. it felt wrong that Kelly was celebrating her win while the camera was still on Ziggler/Guerrero/Swagger, and then completely ignore that to work on Phoenix/Kelly. I don't know why they just couldn't work one fued with the tag match, and then work the other feud with this match.
Big Red Machine wrote: TRIPLE H-CM PUNK CONFRONTATION- eh. This is just debates that I have had with some of you here on the forum. I don’t need to hear it from Punk and Triple H. Punk breaking kayfabe also annoyed me. The interesting part here, though, is that there is clearly a third party involved, which should be interesting.
It's probably just me, but the Punk "shoots" are getting stale and somewhat childish, like always, they're trying to overuse this feat that Punk has, but since it's all kayfabe now, it just feels stupid. Triple H perfectly overshadowed punk on this one, Triple H made more sense and Punk looked like a bitch still asking for cheap pops with the ice cream bar stuff. They really need to cut the kayfabe-breaking Punk a bit, they're not pipebombs if you announce them as such. I kinda feel like this is Punk's face thing, people tune in to see rey rey do the 619, Orton the Viper Dance, and Punk to shoot a pipebomb, it's perfectly ok, but trying to push one of those on each show, it really just looses its power, we know it was booked, big deal.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by Big Red Machine » Sep 13th, '11, 02:14

cero2k wrote:
Big Red Machine wrote: TRIPLE H-CM PUNK CONFRONTATION- eh. This is just debates that I have had with some of you here on the forum. I don’t need to hear it from Punk and Triple H. Punk breaking kayfabe also annoyed me. The interesting part here, though, is that there is clearly a third party involved, which should be interesting.
It's probably just me, but the Punk "shoots" are getting stale and somewhat childish, like always, they're trying to overuse this feat that Punk has, but since it's all kayfabe now, it just feels stupid. Triple H perfectly overshadowed punk on this one, Triple H made more sense and Punk looked like a bitch still asking for cheap pops with the ice cream bar stuff. They really need to cut the kayfabe-breaking Punk a bit, they're not pipebombs if you announce them as such. I kinda feel like this is Punk's face thing, people tune in to see rey rey do the 619, Orton the Viper Dance, and Punk to shoot a pipebomb, it's perfectly ok, but trying to push one of those on each show, it really just looses its power, we know it was booked, big deal.
THIS!
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by badnewzxl » Sep 13th, '11, 03:44

Big Red Machine wrote:
cero2k wrote:
Big Red Machine wrote: TRIPLE H-CM PUNK CONFRONTATION- eh. This is just debates that I have had with some of you here on the forum. I don’t need to hear it from Punk and Triple H. Punk breaking kayfabe also annoyed me. The interesting part here, though, is that there is clearly a third party involved, which should be interesting.
It's probably just me, but the Punk "shoots" are getting stale and somewhat childish, like always, they're trying to overuse this feat that Punk has, but since it's all kayfabe now, it just feels stupid. Triple H perfectly overshadowed punk on this one, Triple H made more sense and Punk looked like a bitch still asking for cheap pops with the ice cream bar stuff. They really need to cut the kayfabe-breaking Punk a bit, they're not pipebombs if you announce them as such. I kinda feel like this is Punk's face thing, people tune in to see rey rey do the 619, Orton the Viper Dance, and Punk to shoot a pipebomb, it's perfectly ok, but trying to push one of those on each show, it really just looses its power, we know it was booked, big deal.
THIS!
I agree that the shoots are getting a bit stale, but mainly bc he's talking about the very same things/ppl each week AND they removed the most important part of Punk's whole deal: the WWE championship. Just bc he's not the number 1 contender doesn't mean Punk shouldn't still be talking trash to/about Cena and Del Rio (in fact, the WWE title match could have used that bc Del Rio v. Cena right now is just your typical Cena title feud). Punk needs more pl to harp on; hopefully Nash, Steph, and/or Laurenitis become a part of this so we don't hear him tear into HHH every week.

I have to disagree about HHH overshadowing Punk though; the very things HHH said only proved Punk's point. Punk feels he shouldn't have to just take all the crap without speaking up about it; he feels like that's the problem with the WWE. He thinks it's stupid that you're supposed to just blindly follow the rules and do what you're told regardless of whether you deem it right or wrong. Being a good company many doesn't automatically translate to being a good person and only helps preserve the status quo. The fans even realized it. After HHH made his grand point about Cena working his ass off and never asking for anything, the fans were still firmly behind Punk and didn't even applaude HHH's statement. If what HHH says about Cena is true (that he's a big star bc got over with the fans) then what CM Punk says is also true bc he is as over with the fans as he says he is. I'm lso more inclined to agree with Punk bc Punk has BEEN over major with the crowd pretty much since he showed up. HHH's point was really that Punk is a cry baby bc Punk didn't wanna pay his dues to the WWE; while Punk believes that he was so over outside of the WWE that the time spent paying those dues only held him back. I personally agree with Punk....
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by kiel297 » Sep 13th, '11, 08:35

I'll make no bones about the fact that I'm a huge mark for CM Punk, and therefore if a segment has Punk in it, I'll enjoy it.

Yeah, this week's segment was just a recycling of the usual stuff at first, but it's when the voices raised that I started to love it. I have absolutely no problem with CM Punk breaking kayfabe here because it's not explicitly stating "WHAT WE DO IS FAKE." All he did was admit that they use stage names, which any fan knows already, and to keep up a pretence that Triple H and CM Punk are their real names bla bla bla is intelligence insulting, so I think it made it interesting that the anger between them got to the point that he threw the stage names out the window and spoke to Mr H's man to man.

Then the microphone cutting came. It was done before, but it was still good because it was never this blatant that someone else working backstage wants to shut Punk up. We know it's not Triple H, because he repeatedly got a new microphone for Punk to use, and it was still cut off. Part of me thinks this is all Johnny Ace. CM Punk hitting Triple H was gold as well. It's the first strike. The time for talk is done. Let's fight. I'd have preferred it if he started to speak then whacked him like he did to Jeff Hardy, but this was still good.

I'm excited for Sunday.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by cero2k » Sep 13th, '11, 09:17

badnewzxl wrote:
I have to disagree about HHH overshadowing Punk though; the very things HHH said only proved Punk's point. Punk feels he shouldn't have to just take all the crap without speaking up about it; he feels like that's the problem with the WWE. He thinks it's stupid that you're supposed to just blindly follow the rules and do what you're told regardless of whether you deem it right or wrong. Being a good company many doesn't automatically translate to being a good person and only helps preserve the status quo. The fans even realized it. After HHH made his grand point about Cena working his a** off and never asking for anything, the fans were still firmly behind Punk and didn't even applaude HHH's statement. If what HHH says about Cena is true (that he's a big star bc got over with the fans) then what CM Punk says is also true bc he is as over with the fans as he says he is. I'm lso more inclined to agree with Punk bc Punk has BEEN over major with the crowd pretty much since he showed up. HHH's point was really that Punk is a cry baby bc Punk didn't wanna pay his dues to the WWE; while Punk believes that he was so over outside of the WWE that the time spent paying those dues only held him back. I personally agree with Punk....
what i felt was that Punk was shooting all over the place, the body builders thing, the paying dues thing, the fans support thing, everything. and Triple H had a simple response for each and every thing Punk said, and legit responses more importantly, even Triple H bringing the conversation back to kayfabe and NoC was done perfectly. I'm not saying Punk was bad last night, but Triple H was definitely better.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by KILLdozer » Sep 13th, '11, 09:39

Del Rio just needs to stop having the scarf when hes wearing nothing but ring gear,it looks really ridiculous.,every time I see him do it the feeling gets worse and worse about it
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by badnewzxl » Sep 13th, '11, 09:53

cero2k wrote:
badnewzxl wrote:
I have to disagree about HHH overshadowing Punk though; the very things HHH said only proved Punk's point. Punk feels he shouldn't have to just take all the crap without speaking up about it; he feels like that's the problem with the WWE. He thinks it's stupid that you're supposed to just blindly follow the rules and do what you're told regardless of whether you deem it right or wrong. Being a good company many doesn't automatically translate to being a good person and only helps preserve the status quo. The fans even realized it. After HHH made his grand point about Cena working his a** off and never asking for anything, the fans were still firmly behind Punk and didn't even applaude HHH's statement. If what HHH says about Cena is true (that he's a big star bc got over with the fans) then what CM Punk says is also true bc he is as over with the fans as he says he is. I'm lso more inclined to agree with Punk bc Punk has BEEN over major with the crowd pretty much since he showed up. HHH's point was really that Punk is a cry baby bc Punk didn't wanna pay his dues to the WWE; while Punk believes that he was so over outside of the WWE that the time spent paying those dues only held him back. I personally agree with Punk....
what i felt was that Punk was shooting all over the place, the body builders thing, the paying dues thing, the fans support thing, everything. and Triple H had a simple response for each and every thing Punk said, and legit responses more importantly, even Triple H bringing the conversation back to kayfabe and NoC was done perfectly. I'm not saying Punk was bad last night, but Triple H was definitely better.
I felt like HHH had nothing to actually authenticate what he said. He made a bunch of statements, but the fans didn't acknowledge anyof them as true or really cheer anything he said. However, they were firmly behind everything Punk said. It made HHH look out of touch bc the fans didn't appear to agree with him at all; they agreed with Punk. And most of what they were discussing was how to become a big star. HHH was saying John Cena did it the right way; by paying his dues and winning the crowd's favor; Punk said it was done by kissing ass behind the scenes. Punk's statement was authenticated by the crowd in a way bc the fans showed that he was over with them in all the ways HHH claimed Cena got over. Punk himself provided the evidence that it truly was political with his example about Survivor Series when he teamed with DX and the Hardys; he's been over. The powers that be just never put much stock in him bc (according to him) he didn't fit their ideal.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by cero2k » Sep 13th, '11, 10:57

badnewzxl wrote: Punk himself provided the evidence that it truly was political with his example about Survivor Series when he teamed with DX and the Hardys; he's been over. The powers that be just never put much stock in him bc (according to him) he didn't fit their ideal.
which is way i felt he was being bitchy. the dude is a former WWE champ, IC champ, 3 time WH champ, won two MITBs. they may not be epic reigns, but that IS the powers that be putting stock on him. when you look back, Punk is not someone being overlooked, he may not main event WM, but he just looks like a whiny kid that hasn't acknowledged what had been given to him.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by KILLdozer » Sep 13th, '11, 11:03

cero2k wrote:
badnewzxl wrote: Punk himself provided the evidence that it truly was political with his example about Survivor Series when he teamed with DX and the Hardys; he's been over. The powers that be just never put much stock in him bc (according to him) he didn't fit their ideal.
which is way i felt he was being bitchy. the dude is a former WWE champ, IC champ, 3 time WH champ, won two MITBs. they may not be epic reigns, but that IS the powers that be putting stock on him. when you look back, Punk is not someone being overlooked, he may not main event WM, but he just looks like a whiny kid that hasn't acknowledged what had been given to him.
yea,not to mention tag champion and down when was in OVW,he was Television,tag team,and World champion there,in his short time hes won every single belt just about,,,how THE FUCK could that be if they werent putting stock in him?
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by Big Red Machine » Sep 13th, '11, 12:26

kiel297 wrote: I have absolutely no problem with CM Punk breaking kayfabe here because it's not explicitly stating "WHAT WE DO IS FAKE." All he did was admit that they use stage names, which any fan knows already, and to keep up a pretence that Triple H and CM Punk are their real names bla bla bla is intelligence insulting, so I think it made it interesting that the anger between them got to the point that he threw the stage names out the window and spoke to Mr H's man to man.

I disagree. First of all, I think that, while we are intended to assume that CM Punk is a stage name, we aren't intended to do so for people with plausible names like Hunter Helmsley.

Second, and more importantly, Punk's comments do, IMO, come too close to "WHAT WE DO IS FAKE!" If they are just stage names and wrestling is kayfabe real, then there should be no difference between the problems between CM Punk and Triple H and the problems between Phil Brooks and Paul Levesque. If there is some deeper level here (which is what Punk was implying)- if the issues between those two sets are different- then it does come too close to breaking kayfabe.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by Big Red Machine » Sep 13th, '11, 12:44

cero2k wrote:
badnewzxl wrote: Punk himself provided the evidence that it truly was political with his example about Survivor Series when he teamed with DX and the Hardys; he's been over. The powers that be just never put much stock in him bc (according to him) he didn't fit their ideal.
which is way i felt he was being bitchy. the dude is a former WWE champ, IC champ, 3 time WH champ, won two MITBs. they may not be epic reigns, but that IS the powers that be putting stock on him. when you look back, Punk is not someone being overlooked, he may not main event WM, but he just looks like a whiny kid that hasn't acknowledged what had been given to him.
Exactly! Which is why the "holding me down" angle won't work. He can complain about the WWE propaganda machine making it seem like Cena is the best wrestler ever, but he can't complain that he is being non-kayfabe held down, which is what he did here.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by kiel297 » Sep 13th, '11, 13:16

Big Red Machine wrote: Second, and more importantly, Punk's comments do, IMO, come too close to "WHAT WE DO IS FAKE!" If they are just stage names and wrestling is kayfabe real, then there should be no difference between the problems between CM Punk and Triple H and the problems between Phil Brooks and Paul Levesque. If there is some deeper level here (which is what Punk was implying)- if the issues between those two sets are different- then it does come too close to breaking kayfabe.
I don't think so, I think that the comment treats WWE less as this enclosed universe where nothing else exists and more as a work place. As a WWE Superstar, you go to work, and you have your differences with other superstars and you duke it out in the ring to settle those differences, or you grab a microphone and go about your business that way. However, with CM Punk and Triple H it's gone beyond having a wrestling match to prove who's better or having a war of words. There's not liking someone at work, and having a rivalry with them, and then there's this fued, which (and I'm not saying other fueds don't) comes down to the fact that these two men hate each other and everything the other stands for.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by cero2k » Sep 13th, '11, 13:20

Big Red Machine wrote:

I disagree. First of all, I think that, while we are intended to assume that CM Punk is a stage name, we aren't intended to do so for people with plausible names like Hunter Helmsley.

Second, and more importantly, Punk's comments do, IMO, come too close to "WHAT WE DO IS FAKE!" If they are just stage names and wrestling is kayfabe real, then there should be no difference between the problems between CM Punk and Triple H and the problems between Phil Brooks and Paul Levesque. If there is some deeper level here (which is what Punk was implying)- if the issues between those two sets are different- then it does come too close to breaking kayfabe.
not necessarily, it is pretty common that a "superstar" (which is what they are) changes his/her name and have a stage name. This does not make things any faker or real than they are. Lady Gaga's music is not fake just cuz she calls herself that. I think even the kids acknowledge that there is no way that Triple H or CM Punk are their names, plus, we leave in the era of the internet and social media. Anyone that goes to Wikipedia will know that Triple H is called Paul and that Punk is called Phil. I don't think this is a serious breach of kayfabe here, it just implies that they have other names and that this feud is so personal they're stepping into that space.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by Big Red Machine » Sep 13th, '11, 14:18

kiel297 wrote:
Big Red Machine wrote: Second, and more importantly, Punk's comments do, IMO, come too close to "WHAT WE DO IS FAKE!" If they are just stage names and wrestling is kayfabe real, then there should be no difference between the problems between CM Punk and Triple H and the problems between Phil Brooks and Paul Levesque. If there is some deeper level here (which is what Punk was implying)- if the issues between those two sets are different- then it does come too close to breaking kayfabe.
I don't think so, I think that the comment treats WWE less as this enclosed universe where nothing else exists and more as a work place. As a WWE Superstar, you go to work, and you have your differences with other superstars and you duke it out in the ring to settle those differences, or you grab a microphone and go about your business that way. However, with CM Punk and Triple H it's gone beyond having a wrestling match to prove who's better or having a war of words. There's not liking someone at work, and having a rivalry with them, and then there's this fued, which (and I'm not saying other fueds don't) comes down to the fact that these two men hate each other and everything the other stands for.
But if they are using real names as an added level to get this across, then it makes other feuds where real names haven't been used look less intense. Think of Raven and Dreamer. Tommy saying that he hates Scott Levy would be the same as him saying that he hates Raven.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by badnewzxl » Sep 13th, '11, 21:26

cero2k wrote:
badnewzxl wrote: Punk himself provided the evidence that it truly was political with his example about Survivor Series when he teamed with DX and the Hardys; he's been over. The powers that be just never put much stock in him bc (according to him) he didn't fit their ideal.
which is way i felt he was being bitchy. the dude is a former WWE champ, IC champ, 3 time WH champ, won two MITBs. they may not be epic reigns, but that IS the powers that be putting stock on him. when you look back, Punk is not someone being overlooked, he may not main event WM, but he just looks like a whiny kid that hasn't acknowledged what had been given to him.
but all that is behind the scenes non-kayfabe stuff; of course the WWE put stock into him. But the Angle revolves around the storyline that Punk isn't getting the same opportunities that someone like Cena does despite Punk being as over with the fans as Cena. His argument is that it's bs that Cena gets shot after shot at titles and he gets to main event show after show when the fans boo him more than Punk AND Punk puts on better matches. HHH's assertion that the fans determine ppls pushes is what Punk disputes; he believes its th folks in charge, and that segment proved him right (the fans were chanting andcheering for Punk the entire time AND the part when they cut the mic right before Punk tore into HHH -which the fans REALLY wanted to see- shows that it's NOT what the fans want, but what the authorities will give them.

If he were to acknowledge that the powers that be gave him titles, he would then have to acknowledge that they are currently giving him the push he's getting but that would slip out of the realm of semi-kayfabe and into the Russo-realm; i'd be stupid. He's just saying that he never gets second chances despite being mega over, while Cena gets shot after shot after shot. The fact that they get relatively the same reaction from the fans (except that Punk is MUCH more popular and has been all year) suggest that the difference must lie somewhere else. HHH continued to insist that the crowd were who wanted to see Cena in main events and fighting for titles, but he looked silly bc the fans rejected each of his statements.

this whole thing is a physical representation of the problem WWE has had for YEARS: WWE (HHH) argues that the IWC (Punk) complains about not getting what they want or the show being lame, but the WWE Universe (the non-smark fans) embraces the WWE product so it isn't that bad. The problem with this (as was illustrated, imo, last night) is that the fans DO agree with IWC/Punk; they ARE tired of WWE forcing the same guys on them week after week (that's why Cena gets booed so heavily and Punk gets cheered) and the mere fact that Punk has gotten over with them by simply stating these points proves that. For years, VKM was sure he knew what the fans wanted to see and he was wrong; he spent all this time pushing certain guys bc the fans just took it and watched and nevr said anything, even though they obviously wished for more. Punk's come along and become the voice of the WWE Universe; he has to sound bitchy bc otherwise what's gonna be done about it?
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Re: BRM Reviews the 9/12/2011 Raw (bad)

Post by WrestlingJoker » Sep 14th, '11, 14:17

Big Red Machine wrote:Overall, Raw was very bad this week. Definitely the worst Raw since Punk’s worked shoot.
Agreed completely. I could not get into it at all. In fact, I had a Skype conversation with some people from another forum during the show, and that was pretty much the only fun part. I did like the C.M. Punk/Triple H confrontation at the end though. Otherwise, the show was completely boring.

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