BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by KILLdozer » Aug 28th, '18, 21:18

Charlotte is pretty repetitive on the microphone every time and in most feuds, it's always, talk with the same time of voice, say her opponent's name in the exact same way, and so on.


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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by cero2k » Aug 28th, '18, 21:29

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 28th, '18, 21:13


People liked Charlotte just fined and cheered her against whatever heel WWE stuck in her way. Becky always got cheered, yes, but she was always "out of sight, out of mind." No one was talking about Becky after her matches were over and no one was talking about her promos other than to point out that they were occasionally cringe-worthy. There were more people angry that American Alpha or The Revival or even Nattie (never mind Bayley or Rusev or Cesaro) were being underutilized than there were for Becky until six weeks ago.
a lot of people love that pun stuff for some reason, I'd say most of WWE Universe-type fans love that shit. But let's put in perspective your comment. Charlotte is liked just 'fine' and cheered against whatever heel, this is considering that she's been the top babyface since her debut and even before in NXT, she's a 7 time champ already, and even then, when wrestling Sasha, she wasn't the top cheered one, that's a lot to just be liked 'fine'.

Becky on the other hand, she's always been the loser of the horsewomen, the loser of Team PCB, until the brand split, she was always positioned on the lower tier, and even when she won the title, it was mostly to put over Alexa, and she still had people liking her. She's not at Charlotte's level, fine, but she's never really been pushed to warrant her following. She's been a fan favorite since her match with Sasha on NXT.

It may depend on where you hang out, but I've seen more people hoping for a Becky push over a Nattie push, but if she's the only one we can count as fans being angry about being underutilized, then that's not a lot really.

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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 29th, '18, 00:23

cero2k wrote:
Aug 28th, '18, 21:29
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 28th, '18, 21:13


People liked Charlotte just fined and cheered her against whatever heel WWE stuck in her way. Becky always got cheered, yes, but she was always "out of sight, out of mind." No one was talking about Becky after her matches were over and no one was talking about her promos other than to point out that they were occasionally cringe-worthy. There were more people angry that American Alpha or The Revival or even Nattie (never mind Bayley or Rusev or Cesaro) were being underutilized than there were for Becky until six weeks ago.
a lot of people love that pun stuff for some reason, I'd say most of WWE Universe-type fans love that shit. But let's put in perspective your comment. Charlotte is liked just 'fine' and cheered against whatever heel, this is considering that she's been the top babyface since her debut and even before in NXT, she's a 7 time champ already, and even then, when wrestling Sasha, she wasn't the top cheered one, that's a lot to just be liked 'fine'.

Becky on the other hand, she's always been the loser of the horsewomen, the loser of Team PCB, until the brand split, she was always positioned on the lower tier, and even when she won the title, it was mostly to put over Alexa, and she still had people liking her. She's not at Charlotte's level, fine, but she's never really been pushed to warrant her following. She's been a fan favorite since her match with Sasha on NXT.

It may depend on where you hang out, but I've seen more people hoping for a Becky push over a Nattie push, but if she's the only one we can count as fans being angry about being underutilized, then that's not a lot really.
Have you completely forgotten the year and a half where Charlotte was the top heel? She was a heel basically her entire time on RAW (basically everything after the PCB break-up was Charlotte as a heel, including the entire Sasha feud).
Becky has been a cult favorite at best. Comparisons to Bryan, who was even over with casuals by mid-2012, are ridiculous.

Again: I'm not saying that Becky hasn't been shortchanged, under-pushed, and under-utilized. I'm just saying that the Roman-Charlotte comparison doesn't hold much water, and seems to be, more than anything else, an overreaction to people being unhappy about the Charlotte/Becky thing and using that anger as a filter to look back at every pro-Charlotte decision WWE has made in an attempt to find a nefarious motive for it as a reason to get even angrier.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by KILLdozer » Aug 29th, '18, 04:59

That's because every pro Charlotte move was just a long drawn out part of this process. As a heel she was just ridiculous.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by cero2k » Aug 29th, '18, 07:40

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 00:23

Have you completely forgotten the year and a half where Charlotte was the top heel? She was a heel basically her entire time on RAW (basically everything after the PCB break-up was Charlotte as a heel, including the entire Sasha feud).
Becky has been a cult favorite at best. Comparisons to Bryan, who was even over with casuals by mid-2012, are ridiculous.

Again: I'm not saying that Becky hasn't been shortchanged, under-pushed, and under-utilized. I'm just saying that the Roman-Charlotte comparison doesn't hold much water, and seems to be, more than anything else, an overreaction to people being unhappy about the Charlotte/Becky thing and using that anger as a filter to look back at every pro-Charlotte decision WWE has made in an attempt to find a nefarious motive for it as a reason to get even angrier.
Cult favorites will always have the strongest long lasting fans, and I'd argue that Becky has the strongest 'cult' behind her from all the women in WWE. And the Roman-Charlotte comparison at no point implies that they're at the same level, nor the Bryan and Becky, they just simply point out that they're going the same direction with Charlotte as they did with Reigns. When Reigns got the push, people didn't notice it until faaar later when he had already broken records and had been placed as the strongest of the shield, this is the same thing, Charlotte has always been placed as the strongest in, well, everything, it's not trying to find more excuses, it's a path that has been there from the beginning, except it took her longer to clash against, as you perfectly pointed out, a cult favorite, that made people realize were they are.

This is the same as strowman, plain and simple, you have a character that people want to see as babyface, that they've been building up as babyface, whether you want to see it as long term or not, and at the end, they turn heel to get the chosen one over,, a chosen one that fans don't agree with. and fans won't follow the script.

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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 29th, '18, 09:37

cero2k wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 07:40
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 00:23

Have you completely forgotten the year and a half where Charlotte was the top heel? She was a heel basically her entire time on RAW (basically everything after the PCB break-up was Charlotte as a heel, including the entire Sasha feud).
Becky has been a cult favorite at best. Comparisons to Bryan, who was even over with casuals by mid-2012, are ridiculous.

Again: I'm not saying that Becky hasn't been shortchanged, under-pushed, and under-utilized. I'm just saying that the Roman-Charlotte comparison doesn't hold much water, and seems to be, more than anything else, an overreaction to people being unhappy about the Charlotte/Becky thing and using that anger as a filter to look back at every pro-Charlotte decision WWE has made in an attempt to find a nefarious motive for it as a reason to get even angrier.
Cult favorites will always have the strongest long lasting fans, and I'd argue that Becky has the strongest 'cult' behind her from all the women in WWE. And the Roman-Charlotte comparison at no point implies that they're at the same level, nor the Bryan and Becky, they just simply point out that they're going the same direction with Charlotte as they did with Reigns. When Reigns got the push, people didn't notice it until faaar later when he had already broken records and had been placed as the strongest of the shield, this is the same thing, Charlotte has always been placed as the strongest in, well, everything, it's not trying to find more excuses, it's a path that has been there from the beginning, except it took her longer to clash against, as you perfectly pointed out, a cult favorite, that made people realize were they are.

This is the same as strowman, plain and simple, you have a character that people want to see as babyface, that they've been building up as babyface, whether you want to see it as long term or not, and at the end, they turn heel to get the chosen one over,, a chosen one that fans don't agree with. and fans won't follow the script.
I just don't see that that is what is happening with Charlotte. As of right now, the Becky thing appears to be an isolated incident, and even then I think it's more WWE misjudging what the audience's reaction would be rather than a a deliberate effort to tell us that "Charlotte is the greatest and you MUST cheer for her." When this story started, more people were saying "they need to turn Becky heel than were saying that they should push Becky as a babyface.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by KILLdozer » Aug 29th, '18, 10:08

Asuka immediately being destroyed the second she meets Charlotte is another perfect example of the above.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 29th, '18, 10:17

KILLdozer wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 10:08
Asuka immediately being destroyed the second she meets Charlotte is another perfect example of the above.
They had one match and they decided they wanted Charlotte to win because 1) they felt constrained by Asuka's undefeated streak and 2) they wanted to set Charlotte up as a streak-ender for the presumptive Ronda match at Mania next year. You can not like that Charlotte won, but the idea that Asuka was "immediately destroyed" by losing on hard-fought wrestling match to Charlotte is utterly ridiculous. It wasn't losing to Charlotte that hurt Asuka, it was the poor follow-up with her, followed by a feud with Carmella that consisted of the same exact thing happening week after week.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by cero2k » Aug 29th, '18, 10:57

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 09:37

I just don't see that that is what is happening with Charlotte. As of right now, the Becky thing appears to be an isolated incident, and even then I think it's more WWE misjudging what the audience's reaction would be rather than a a deliberate effort to tell us that "Charlotte is the greatest and you MUST cheer for her." When this story started, more people were saying "they need to turn Becky heel than were saying that they should push Becky as a babyface.
I definitely missed that about people saying Becky should turn heel, all I've ever seen is how Becky is underutilized. And with Charlotte, when she's already a 7 time champ, poster girl, main eventer of every 'history making blah blah', that too me is deliberately putting her as the 'greatest'. Maybe it doesn't look as forced as Reigns, but that's probably because Reigns is hated more, and like i said, people don't feel as pushed down just to get Charlotte over. The Reigns hate didn't start until he was pushed over the fan favorite, but he was already breaking records, being the finalist in the rumbles, positioned as the center of the shield. Charlotte has been gaining those credentials and now facing a fan favorite could finally trigger that backlash.

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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by XIV » Aug 29th, '18, 11:32

“Payback in the Outback” would have been the best name...
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 29th, '18, 12:39

XIV wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 11:32
“Payback in the Outback” would have been the best name...
Yes it would.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 29th, '18, 13:34

cero2k wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 10:57
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 09:37

I just don't see that that is what is happening with Charlotte. As of right now, the Becky thing appears to be an isolated incident, and even then I think it's more WWE misjudging what the audience's reaction would be rather than a a deliberate effort to tell us that "Charlotte is the greatest and you MUST cheer for her." When this story started, more people were saying "they need to turn Becky heel than were saying that they should push Becky as a babyface.
I definitely missed that about people saying Becky should turn heel, all I've ever seen is how Becky is underutilized. And with Charlotte, when she's already a 7 time champ, poster girl, main eventer of every 'history making blah blah', that too me is deliberately putting her as the 'greatest'. Maybe it doesn't look as forced as Reigns, but that's probably because Reigns is hated more, and like i said, people don't feel as pushed down just to get Charlotte over. The Reigns hate didn't start until he was pushed over the fan favorite, but he was already breaking records, being the finalist in the rumbles, positioned as the center of the shield. Charlotte has been gaining those credentials and now facing a fan favorite could finally trigger that backlash.
The "Becky needs to turn heel" thing was a reaction to people's frustration with her under-utilization as a babyface and thinking that a fresh coat of paint would be the best thing for her.
Sasha was right there with her for 90% of the history-making (she wasn't in the MITB because she was on the other show, but she was in the 'Lim Chamber when Charlotte wasn't). The "too many title reigns" issue is a criticism that can also be leveled at Bliss and Sasha at the least, but even Bayley when you look at the amount of time she was on the main roster for at that point. I their first eighteen months on the main roster, Charlotte, Sasha, Bliss, and Bayley all had more title wins than Nattie had had at that point and Becky had just as many as Nattie. The issue there was them doing too many title switches, and often for dumb reasons (like their insistence on keeping Charlotte's PPV streak alive, while also wanting to give Bayley title wins). "Making history!" is how they push everyone now, just like everyone from the past was a "trailblazer." That's just how WWE's (ineffective and infuriating) PR machine/booking ideas work. It's not being done specifically for Charlotte's benefit; it's being done for the benefit of all the women... which, in reality, means its actually being done for the benefit of the company, as it's just them screaming WE'RE DOING THINGS THIS WAY NOW!" at the top of their lungs in an effort to change the narrative. As I said in a review several years ago, the central problem of their whole "Women's/Divas' R/Evolution" messaging is that in reality, the evil patriarchal oppressor in this story is WWE themselves (including a large period of time where the head of Creative and later the head of the branding department was the totally-female matron saint of women's empowerment Stephanie McMahon), and WWE's neuroses will never, ever allow them to admit that in public.
Even inflating Charlotte's title total by retiring the Divas Championship and creating a new Women's Championship for her was actually done for Stephanie's benefit, not Charlotte's, as it was Stephanie who they got to have in all of the footage making this wonderful, empowering r/evolutionary announcement. If they were doing it for Charlotte's benefit they would have had Charlotte refuse to accept the "Divas Title" and demand a new belt that didn't use a demeaning PR term and look like a punk butterfly.
You are correct that the Reigns hate didn't coalesce until they started pushing him over the other people that fans wanted to see as top babyfaces (particularly Bryan and Ambrose, and to a lesser extent Ziggler and Cesaro in the first year, before filtering down to everyone else who came along as well, including even some heels like Rusev and Wyatt), that happened relatively quickly (less than six months) after Roman's first big record (most eliminations in a single Royal Rumble), and it stayed consistent as people saw WWE as completely and totally unwilling to do things to give others a chance and doing everything possible to manipulate events to get fans to cheer Roman. Charlotte has been collecting these records and making history for a long time now, but it hasn't ever felt like WWE was deliberately burying other potential top acts or going to extreme lengths to get people to cheer for Charlotte (they even let her be a heel for a year and a half) and they certainly haven't been editing fan reactions to her.
I think a much better comparison to this than Roman/Bryan is Orton/Christian. WWE built up Christian's first world title win and then had Orton take it away from him less than a week later, thinking that fans would pop for the surprise win and that Christian would make a better heel than a babyface (which was true for his entire first WWE run), so they did a surprising title change to turn Christian heel, and the fans reacted differently than WWE expected because they underestimated the fan's love for Christian. This is the exact same thing.

Furthermore, this "Charlotte is the golden girl" talk all seems fan-generated, as opposed to the Roman stuff, which was newsletter-reported first. What the newsletters have said is that Ronda is the golden girl, and that Charlotte is merely being fattened up so that she can be fed to Ronda at Mania.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by cero2k » Aug 29th, '18, 15:03

Again, no one is saying all that was created to get Charlotte over, she was over thanks to NXT, but she has been the in the center of everything, yeah, Sasha was there, and now who is the one that stayed as the top? Charlotte. Yeah, she was a heel, because she can, because for the longest time, WWE loved Paige more than everyone in the division, but Charlotte was still on top, she's always been on top, front center.

Your point that Reigns first record was the Rumble is a good example how things with these pushes are not obvious until far in, because by the time that rumble record happened, Reigns's push was already MONTHS in, he had already set the record of the Survivor Series eliminating everyone in the opposing team, he was already portrayed as the 'leader' of the shield, always front center, always being the one that took the first steps towards challenges. So with Charlotte is the same, a lot of things in the last years are not as obvious until we realize all the things that happen, it always includes Charlotte while there are prettier/hotter/more talented wrestlers in WWE. No one complained with her because she is liked 'fine' and people at least respect her. If you don't want to compare it to Reigns/Bryan, fine, I see the similarities and only time will tell.

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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by KILLdozer » Aug 29th, '18, 16:56

Charlotte facing defeat to Rousey at Wrestlemania? Idk about that one. My thing about "Charlotte and Asuka was just so Charlotte could start breakin' streaks to eventually face Ronda Rousey."

I definitely don't agree with it like that. Why did it have to be Charlotte to defeat her...plus...you know how many people tried and most to Asuka in like...475 days or something? A lot, some a lot of different times....then, the first time she faces Charlotte, that's it! Over and lost. So...Charlotte is hands down bar none above everyone else for doing what no one before her could?

Absolutely not. Plus, Asuka is extremely skilled, I don't really buy into the fact that she couldn't escape or counter out of a simple modified figure four leg lock. All it takes is something like that from Charlotte of all people. Think of it as if...in some way in another universe....Reigns was actually the one to beat Goldberg cleanly...out of nowhere in one match.

Kind of reminds of "Anyone but you Roman..."

Can we please get Nicki Cross on Sd to say, "Anyone but you Charlotte....."?

As it's been said over and over by now, where is Charlotte now and where is Sasha after it all?
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 29th, '18, 22:09

cero2k wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 15:03
Again, no one is saying all that was created to get Charlotte over,
Exactly. Which is, in my opinion, a fundamental difference from the Roman situation and why the comparison is unfair.
cero2k wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 15:03
Your point that Reigns first record was the Rumble is a good example how things with these pushes are not obvious until far in, because by the time that rumble record happened, Reigns's push was already MONTHS in, he had already set the record of the Survivor Series eliminating everyone in the opposing team, he was already portrayed as the 'leader' of the shield, always front center, always being the one that took the first steps towards challenges. So with Charlotte is the same, a lot of things in the last years are not as obvious until we realize all the things that happen, it always includes Charlotte while there are prettier/hotter/more talented wrestlers in WWE. No one complained with her because she is liked 'fine' and people at least respect her. If you don't want to compare it to Reigns/Bryan, fine, I see the similarities and only time will tell.
I never got the feeling that Roman was the "leader" of the Shield at all. And if he was, there would have been no need to break them up to allow for Roman's push to begin.

Re: the Rumble, I think the reaction to Roman would have been vastly different if Batista hadn't been in there. The reason people didn't start reacting to Roman then is not because we "didn't see it." Survivor Series 2013, when Roman eliminated four people when his team a at a disadvantage to come back and win was the first big thing they gave Roman and the first time that Dave noted that Roman is their pick for the next face of the company. The Royal Rumble record was the second thing they gave Roman, and the only people who grumbled were Kane devotees. Fans (at least newsletter readers) knew that they were doing things to make Roman look special, but they didn't react negatively to it because they weren't cutting anyone else's legs off so that they wouldn't be in Roman's way (as opposed to later in the year when, for example, Ambrose was the one in the big, personal feud with Rollins but Roman got to pin him clean on the go-home show for the PPV that was supposed to be Dean's big blow-off, or the entire 2015 Royal Rumble).
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 29th, '18, 22:23

KILLdozer wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 16:56
Charlotte facing defeat to Rousey at Wrestlemania? Idk about that one. My thing about "Charlotte and Asuka was just so Charlotte could start breakin' streaks to eventually face Ronda Rousey."

I definitely don't agree with it like that. Why did it have to be Charlotte to defeat her...plus...you know how many people tried and most to Asuka in like...475 days or something? A lot, some a lot of different times....then, the first time she faces Charlotte, that's it! Over and lost. So...Charlotte is hands down bar none above everyone else for doing what no one before her could?
She had to lose to someone at some point. It just happened to be Charlotte. If it makes you feel and better, we don't know that Becky (or Naomi, or someone else you might like better) wouldn't have beaten Asuka if she had been booked against Asuka first, as those two have never faced off.
KILLdozer wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 16:56
Absolutely not. Plus, Asuka is extremely skilled, I don't really buy into the fact that she couldn't escape or counter out of a simple modified figure four leg lock. All it takes is something like that from Charlotte of all people. Think of it as if...in some way in another universe....Reigns was actually the one to beat Goldberg cleanly...out of nowhere in one match.
This statement is ridiculous. It's not like Charlotte was some jobber. She was a multiple-time champion. What you're saying is like someone saying that they "don't buy" Samoa Joe not being able to catch AJ and choke him out during their SummerSlam match. Too f*cking bad. That's what happened, and it makes total sense given the level both characters were portrayed at.
KILLdozer wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 16:56
As it's been said over and over by now, where is Charlotte now and where is Sasha after it all?
And my point is that Sasha's fall had nothing to do with being jobbed out to Charlotte. She was beating Bliss for the title at SummerSlam eight months after her feud with Charlotte ended. Sasha's fall has to do with her being completely mishandled by Creative in this Bayley angle.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by KILLdozer » Aug 29th, '18, 22:26

Asuka was Sooooo high above Charlotte though and then lost to a simple submission. One way or another that's how it happened. Basic stuff.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by KILLdozer » Aug 29th, '18, 22:29

Also I meant to further elaborate...you're telling me that ultra fighter and submission grappler Asuka couldn't beat a figure four?
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 29th, '18, 22:43

KILLdozer wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 22:26
Asuka was Sooooo high above Charlotte though and then lost to a simple submission. One way or another that's how it happened. Basic stuff.
She lost to a leg submission after Charlotte worked her leg over all match. That's how submissions work. Anyone can tap to anyone if they work the body part over and then lock the hold in well.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 8/27/2018 Raw

Post by KILLdozer » Aug 29th, '18, 22:45

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 22:43
KILLdozer wrote:
Aug 29th, '18, 22:26
Asuka was Sooooo high above Charlotte though and then lost to a simple submission. One way or another that's how it happened. Basic stuff.
She lost to a leg submission after Charlotte worked her leg over all match. That's how submissions work. Anyone can tap to anyone if they work the body part over and then lock the hold in well.
Tell me how disqualifications work next ? 💀
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