BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

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BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 18th, '17, 04:22

OPENING SEGMENT- FANTASTIC!
Ambrose and Rollins had an absolutely wonderful segment together. I loved how Dean seemed like he was finally going to be able to tolerate Seth’s presence, and then Seth completely accidentally ripped that old wound of betrayal wide open. I loved Seth’s big mea culpa and accepting the consequences of what he did while reminding us that he has suffered, too. And I absolutely loved him finally apologizing, and doing so in a completely natural way within the segment. And I loved him standing there, willing to take his penance from Dean so that they could move past it, and Dean finally throwing the chair away after a good, long while, because deep down Dean knows that hitting Seth won’t solve anything. It will make it harder to fight The Miz and his pals with Seth hurt, and it won’t undo any of the pain of Seth’s betrayal, and it won’t actually make Dean feel any better right now, either. This was one of the best talking segments WWE has done in years (which I know I said about the Enzo & Cass thing a few weeks ago, but this was a different type of thing. That was promos and an angle; this was a segment that actually moved a storyline along).
Then Miz & his cronies came out and Miz tried to destroy whatever little trust they had just built. Miz and his pals got chairs. The fans (lightly) chanted for Roman but he didn’t come out. Instead the three heels used their chairs and beat up the two unarmed babyfaces. Great heat!

CHARLY TRIES TO INTERVIEWS MIZ- he blows her off, and he, Bo, Axel, & Maryse leave the building.

BAYLEY vs. ALEXA BLISS!- 3.75/10
Michael Cole tells us that Alexa “was humiliated” when she lost to Bayley last week. If that’s the storyline, then maybe we could have gotten a promo from Alexa actually telling us that? Things always work best when we hear them firsthand, and having Michael Cole be the one to say that a loss to Bayley is humiliation kind of buries Bayley, whereas if it’s Alexa saying it then it’s just her being a heel (although after the past few months, it is kind of true).
I think Vince is on one of his weird kicks again, because when describing how Nia Jax came down to the ring, Michael Cole insisted on using the verb “march” every single time. Insisting on using the same verb every single time is weird and unnatural on its own, but this was made doubly weird by the fact that what Nia did would much more accurately be described as casually strolling down to the ring.
Michael Cole somehow manages to botch Alexa’s “Little Miss Bliss” nickname (for which Corey Graves rightly scolded him), instead calling her “Little Swiss Bliss.” I’m going to guess that Cole got a look at Cesaro in the shower earlier and the image got stuck in his head, resulting in the Freudian Slip.
That thing they did in the ropes looked terrible. Nia came down to ringside for no reason whatsoever. The announcers keep insisting that she and Alexa are actual friends but we have seen no evidence of that on screen. I see no reason why we should think that this relationship is anything other than what it was when they first established it: Nia is doing what she can to keep Alexa as champion because she thinks Alexa will give her a title shot.
Anyway, stuff happened, including the aforementioned horrendous rope spot. Bayley sold her arm a lot even though I don’t remember Alexa working on it too much. Nia got to have one spot where she stood in Bayley’s way for a bit. Alexa then ran out from behind Nia and punched Bayley in the face. Cole insisted that this was a “cheap shot” even though Alexa came right at Bayley head-on. But do you want to know what was a cheap shot? Sasha Banks running down to ringside to attack Nia from behind. We got a tease of last week’s finish with Bayley rolling Alexa up off of a distraction but Alexa kicked out… and then Bayley hit Alexa with her finisher and pinned Alexa… which means that we have gone absolutely nowhere because Bayley just pinned Alexa last week. The only “new” thing that this finish builds to is yet another Bayley & Sasha vs. Alexa & Nia tag match.
Cole tells us that after this win “Bayley has got to be in the conversation now for an opportunity at the Women’s Championship.” SHE’S PINNED THE CHAMPION CLEANLY, TWO WEEKS IN A ROW. A title shot should have already been scheduled for her after last week’s match (never mind for Sasha after getting a count-out win at the PPV, and for Nia after having her title shot at the beginning of last month ruined by interference. This shouldn’t be f*cking hard!)

Michael Cole tried to plug WWE’s involvement with the ESPYs, but, like me, Corey Graves didn’t want to hear it so he got up and left. What does WWE even think they gain from this plug? Anyone seeing this is already watching Raw. You don’t need to convince us that you’re culturally relevant. We’re already watching the show, so we either don’t care or we already think that you’re culturally relevant enough for us to watch (and I really hope that most fans fall under the former and not the latter).

KURT ANGLE & COREY GRAVES BACKSTAGE- Graves reassures Kurt that he is doing the right thing by coming clean. Unless the fact that Graves convinced Kurt to do this is going to be important, this was just an annoying waste of time. They’ve been hyping this thing up with graphics after every damn segment. It didn’t need its own backstage segment just to hype it up.

TITUS WORLDWIDE BACKSTAGE- Titus gives his guys a wacky pep talk. Ariya Daivari showed up and said they were pathetic for begging and making excuses and stuff. Daivari wants a match with Tozawa. I assume that this Hassan Yazdani fellow (he is an Iranian won the gold medal in freestyle wrestling at the 2016 Olympics) is going to be showing up at some point, or else why would they keep name-dropping him?

BRIAN KENDRICK & DREW GULAK vs. MUSTAFA ALI & JACK GALLAGHER- 0.75/10
Didn’t this Gulak vs. Ali feud end already? Also, why does Ali have a window on his chest?
The match went just over two minutes, and between the way this match was treated and Cole and Graves’ recap of the two feuds involved, this was a nice little reminder of why I don’t watch 205 Live. At least they appear to have given up on the purple ropes for Cruiserweight matches during Raw.

ENZO & CASS SEGMENT- First Enzo cut an awesome promo demonstrating how he was a fighter while Cass was a coward for running away from Big Show last week. Then Cass came out to fight… and Enzo ran away because he had recruited Big Show to fight his battle for him. Well… that kind of killed Enzo’s credibility there now didn’t it?
Big Show came out to fight Cass but Cass beat him up. Enzo tried to jump Cass from behind but Cass saw it coming and beat Enzo up, too. This would have been a perfect segment if Cass was the babyface and Enzo was the heel.

CHARLY INTERVIEWS ROMAN REIGNS- good promo by Roman

ROLLINS & AMBROSE BACKSTAGE- bad
This felt completely disconnected from Seth & Dean’s earlier interaction. Then Kurt Angle showed and said that because of what happened earlier, he’s booking them against any two members of the Miz-tourage next week. So can make this match in an hour, but it takes him weeks or months to make obvious announcements of title matches in the women’s and tag team divisions?
Dean says they’ll take on all three guys, so Kurt makes it a handicap match. Seth clearly wasn’t happy with this, but didn’t make a big deal out of it in order to not exacerbate things with Dean.

FINN BALOR vs. “THE DRIFTER” ELIAS SAMPSON- 4/10
They go for a bit before The Drifter gives Balor the El Kabong for the DQ. Then Bray Wyatt showed up on the TitanTron to laugh at my Quick Draw McGraw reference. Then he cut a promo.

KURT, SASHA, & BAYLEY BACKSTAGE- whoever decided that Sasha and Bayley should engage in playful, friendly bickering here only succeeded in making them both come off as annoying. Kurt booked them against each other next week for the title shot on Summer Slam, so barring the double non-finish that we’re almost certainly going to get (via Nia Jax run-in) only one of these two clearly deserving women will get a title shot.

CHARY WANTS TO KNOW WHY THE REVIVAL ATTACKED THE HARDYS LAST WEEK- Dawson said it’s because they don’t like people who do flips, while Dash said that it was because the Hardy Boyz were quite disrespectful to them when they first met them, pretending to not know who they were.

ARIYA DAIVARI vs. AKIRA TOZAWA (w/Titus O’Neil)- 4.25/10
Now they’ve got a graphic for this Yazdani guy. Daivari targeted the shoulder that Neville injured on 205 live and got the win via referee stoppage when Titus verbally threw in the towel. Tozawa was furious at Titus, shouting “I NEVER QUIT!” “WHY’D YOU STOP THE MATCH?!” and “YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT ME!” This was very good, and not the sort of thing I ever expected WWE to do.

KURT ANGLE’S DIRTY SECRET IS… an illegitimate child! Score one for BRM!
It’s Jason Jordan, because breaking up American Alpha is definitely not a completely stupid idea. Also, how did Jason Jordan become a member of the Raw roster? He would have had to have been traded for someone, wouldn't he? And wouldn’t trying to trade for just Jordan have made Bryan and Shane suspicious? In fact, you’d think the very least Kurt could do for his long-lost son would be to bring his best buddy Chad Gable over, too, right?
Also… this is pro wrestling. How the hell is an illegitimate son such a scandal? And especially when they made it extremely clear that Kurt wasn’t married at the time, and “knew nothing of the pregnancy or the birth.” When you tell me that something could destroy your career and your family and your reputation and basically ruin your life, I expect it to be heroin distribution charges or a child slavery ring or a video of you soliciting and then boning someone who you knew to be an underage hooker.

THE HARDY BOYZ vs. THE REVIVAL- 8/10
Booker T referred to that leg hook double back suplex that the Hardys have done forever as “something new” and “innovative.” This match was given quite a bit of time, and to the shock of no one, it was awesome.

CHARLY CARUSO INTERVIEWS SAMOA JOE- great

TITUS & TOZAWA BACKSTAGE- Titus fumbled his delivery a bit, but on the whole his explanation came off very well. Tozawa tells him he wants a match with Daivari tomorrow night on 205 Live, even though his shoulder is injured.

We’re getting Balor vs. Drifter in a No DQs match next week, which means Wyatt is running in. Also… holy crap we’re got three matches already set for next week, and their advertising them!

There is a guy with a sign shaped like the state of Texas that says “Von Erichs” on it. Tonight’s show comes from Nashville, Tennessee. Odd.

WINNER GETS A WWE UNIVERSAL TITLE MATCH AT SUMMER SLAM: Roman Reigns vs. Samoa Joe- 8/10
These guys were having a really awesome brawl when Braun Strowman showed up. He pulled Joe out of the ring which technically should have resulted in Roman being DQed but nothing was called. Roman punched him a bit but Braun tossed him aside, but there was no DQ called for here, either. Then Joe and Braun started brawling and still the bell did not ring. This is, like, the easiest thing in the world to do right, but somehow WWE is screwing it up.
Braun beat both guys up, and not even Joe and Roman working together could fell the mighty Strowman. Security showed up, ostensibly to keep Braun from going back after Roman but they just stood there yelling at him as opposed to actually helping. Braun gave Roman a few running powerslams. Roman should consider himself quite lucky that this was all he got after his attempted murder of Braun a mere nine days ago (and by the, way, not one person this week even so much as implied that Roman did anything wrong).

A good show from WWE, with an excellent opening segment and excellent third hour sandwiching stuff that, while not at all good, was at least watchable.

Also, has anyone else noticed how “free agent” John Cena has been back for almost three weeks now and no one has even hinted at the possibility of him showing up on Raw?


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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by cero2k » Jul 18th, '17, 10:27

that Kurt Angle storyline has to be the stupidest Angle (no pun intended and intended at the same time) since idk, Swoggle being Vince's son. I think sometimes wrestling bookers think that because of 'kayfabe' and because some things fans can easily suspend their disbelief, that it is ok to just throw whatever shit out there and assume that it's ok.

How can you try to play it real and play game with Ronda Rousey and McGregor and Lesnar and at the same time take two legit athletes outside of WWE and pretend they're father and son? I can believe that Bray Wyatt has powers, because Bray Wyatt doesn't actually exist outside of WWE, but Angle and Jordan (by another name, but it's the same gimmick) DO exist outside of WWE and now we gotta pretend they're father and son because Angle did it WITH FREAKING BROKEN NECK CONDOM!

not to mention, typical Vince, no only does he break up a team with sooo much potential, he pushes the guy (that was dying on developmental) that has the muscles and the height, and not the ability and charisma that Gable has. RAW and Smackdown is really becoming like then Paul Heyman was booking, you can see that Vince pushes tall muscly men on RAW, and the talented scraps go to Smackdown

I'm not saying Dixie Carter would have been a better idea, but jesus this is insulting. I just watched Ibushi and Naito had a great match hours before, and then you watch this crap and no wonder I keep drifting away from WWE.

I'm stopping this rant now before i start insulting people, shit like this baffles my mind
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by KILLdozer » Jul 18th, '17, 11:14

Yeah perfect sense... it's not Chad Gable, it's Jason Jordan!
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by KILLdozer » Jul 18th, '17, 12:37

Maybe it was like that Matt Hardy/Christian and Edge thing from years ago... remember-"Who attacked Jeff Hardy?"

It was all slated to be Christian's big shocking return perfectly in exactly what people would want to see, and Matt Hardy was planned to go to ECW and face Jack Swagger... but it was like too many people figured it out or had ideas about it so it was all switched around

That's actually another of those biggest "Biggest screwups that should have went differently ."

So yeah-"Chad Gable-ah they got us! Give them Jordan instead!"
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 18th, '17, 13:21

KILLdozer wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 12:37
Maybe it was like that Matt Hardy/Christian and Edge thing from years ago... remember-"Who attacked Jeff Hardy?"

It was all slated to be Christian's big shocking return perfectly in exactly what people would want to see, and Matt Hardy was planned to go to ECW and face Jack Swagger... but it was like too many people figured it out or had ideas about it so it was all switched around

That's actually another of those biggest "Biggest screwups that should have went differently ."

So yeah-"Chad Gable-ah they got us! Give them Jordan instead!"
This certainly could be the case, but if it is then it being Jordan actually improves it because Kurt would have still been in high school when Gable was a born but would have been a sophomore in college when Jordan was.

As for the Edge/Christian/Matt/Jeff thing being one of the "biggest screw-ups that should have went differently," I'll agree that the original plan was much better and it would have avoided some of the silliness with Edge at the next PPV because they wouldn't have needed to put the belt on him, but I don't think that the Matt-Jeff feud itself was a terrible idea because Jeff's newfound real success did give Matt something to be jealous of. Personally, I would have made it a four-way instead of doing what they did.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 18th, '17, 13:29

cero2k wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 10:27
that Kurt Angle storyline has to be the stupidest Angle (no pun intended and intended at the same time) since idk, Swoggle being Vince's son. I think sometimes wrestling bookers think that because of 'kayfabe' and because some things fans can easily suspend their disbelief, that it is ok to just throw whatever shit out there and assume that it's ok.

How can you try to play it real and play game with Ronda Rousey and McGregor and Lesnar and at the same time take two legit athletes outside of WWE and pretend they're father and son? I can believe that Bray Wyatt has powers, because Bray Wyatt doesn't actually exist outside of WWE, but Angle and Jordan (by another name, but it's the same gimmick) DO exist outside of WWE and now we gotta pretend they're father and son because Angle did it WITH FREAKING BROKEN NECK CONDOM!

not to mention, typical Vince, no only does he break up a team with sooo much potential, he pushes the guy (that was dying on developmental) that has the muscles and the height, and not the ability and charisma that Gable has. RAW and Smackdown is really becoming like then Paul Heyman was booking, you can see that Vince pushes tall muscly men on RAW, and the talented scraps go to Smackdown

I'm not saying Dixie Carter would have been a better idea, but jesus this is insulting. I just watched Ibushi and Naito had a great match hours before, and then you watch this crap and no wonder I keep drifting away from WWE.

I'm stopping this rant now before i start insulting people, shit like this baffles my mind
I'm actually expecting those Eddie Guerrero "I'm Your Papi" shirts to make a comeback due to this angle.

As for the "insulting our intelligence" thing, I'm actually on the exact opposite page. The timeline checks out, therefore I see this as perfectly plausible, And if Angle and Jordan are going to commit to kayfabing this in public, then more power to them.
Bray, on the other hand, is bothersome because his magical powers are pathetically clearly done as a plot convenience. At first they were intended to make him seem scary when he really didn't need them to do so, and now they've just become an annoyance and a crutch. They have never explained why Bray just doesn't teleport out of the cage every time he is in a cage match, or why he didn't teleport to his compound to stop Randy from burning it down. Some thought appears to have gone into this Angle/Jordan thing. With Bray the only thought that seems to have gone into him is that "it will be spooky."

I don't get how you can bury WWE for this but not bury New Japan for guys in a stable trying to screw each other and hitting each other with weapons and green mist completely out of the blue and then be fine the next day.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by cero2k » Jul 18th, '17, 13:58

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 13:29


As for the "insulting our intelligence" thing, I'm actually on the exact opposite page. The timeline checks out, therefore I see this as perfectly plausible, And if Angle and Jordan are going to commit to kayfabing this in public, then more power to them.
Bray, on the other hand, is bothersome because his magical powers are pathetically clearly done as a plot convenience. At first they were intended to make him seem scary when he really didn't need them to do so, and now they've just become an annoyance and a crutch. They have never explained why Bray just doesn't teleport out of the cage every time he is in a cage match, or why he didn't teleport to his compound to stop Randy from burning it down. Some thought appears to have gone into this Angle/Jordan thing. With Bray the only thought that seems to have gone into him is that "it will be spooky."

I don't get how you can bury WWE for this but not bury New Japan for guys in a stable trying to screw each other and hitting each other with weapons and green mist completely out of the blue and then be fine the next day.
I'm not defending the execution of Bray at all, but at least I can believe that such a character exists in the universe, because there is nothing outside of his scope that says otherwise. In his universe, he's not brother's to Bo or the former Husky Harris, he's just Bray Wyatt.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 13:29
I don't get how you can bury WWE for this but not bury New Japan for guys in a stable trying to screw each other and hitting each other with weapons and green mist completely out of the blue and then be fine the next day.
because that's what normal humans do, sometimes you beat the shit out of each other with your friend or teammate to get something out of your system, but that doesn't end the friendship, it's not betrayal, it's just a fight. Especially when we're talking about Suzuki-Gun (a group of thugs that fight for a living and likely give each other shit all day) or LIJ (who are not normal to begin with). It's like the Royal Rumble, when it comes to a fight between partners, it's everyone by themselves because friendship or not, the prize championship is there, once the match is done, 'were still partners" but meanwhile, no hard feelings.

Now, pretending someone is someone else's father is just something that you just can't take back that easily unless the soap opera (because that is what it became) escalates in drama and Maury is brought in to do DNA tests. I don't need Maury nor DNA tests in a wrestling company that is also looking to feel legit for having Ronda or Lesnar. If you wanna be CHIKARA, then be CHIKARA, but fully commit.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 18th, '17, 15:26

cero2k wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 13:58

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 13:29
I don't get how you can bury WWE for this but not bury New Japan for guys in a stable trying to screw each other and hitting each other with weapons and green mist completely out of the blue and then be fine the next day.
because that's what normal humans do, sometimes you beat the shit out of each other with your friend or teammate to get something out of your system, but that doesn't end the friendship, it's not betrayal, it's just a fight. Especially when we're talking about Suzuki-Gun (a group of thugs that fight for a living and likely give each other shit all day) or LIJ (who are not normal to begin with). It's like the Royal Rumble, when it comes to a fight between partners, it's everyone by themselves because friendship or not, the prize championship is there, once the match is done, 'were still partners" but meanwhile, no hard feelings.
The issue is that we saw no previous indication that these guys had anything in their systems that they felt any need to get out. This was not Matt Riddle and TJP in EVOLVE last year where Riddle was being a dick to most of his Catchpoint teammates for months before TJP finally said he was sick of his sh*t. And the Royal Rumble comparison also falls apart in many ways:

1. There was no reason for the other two to get involved. Do you really think that if Catchpoint- a group known for tolerating infighting- were in a battle royale and just Dickinson and Williams were left and Jaka did a run-in to try to eliminate Williams in order to help Dickinson, that Williams wouldn't be pissed at Jaka?

2. They didn't just wrestle each other, they used weapons. You don't think that if Matt and Jeff were the first two guys in the Royal Rumble and Matt had Jeff down so rolled under the bottom rope to the floor to get a chair and started beating Jeff with the chair that Jeff wouldn't be pissed? And this goes doubly so for the seconds, who had absolutely nothing on the line in this match. You say things that "they likely give each other sh*t all day," but we've seen no evidence of this... and I don't really see Suzuki as the kind of leader who would tolerate anything but perfect discipline.

3. When one guy thinks his friend betrayed him in the Royal Rumble, it usually DOES lead to something, and that's without any actual cheating involved. At the very least it would be addressed in some kind of segment over the next week or two, and the lack of trust between them would at the very least become a short-term storyline.

cero2k wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 13:58
Now, pretending someone is someone else's father is just something that you just can't take back that easily unless the soap opera (because that is what it became) escalates in drama and Maury is brought in to do DNA tests. I don't need Maury nor DNA tests in a wrestling company that is also looking to feel legit for having Ronda or Lesnar. If you wanna be CHIKARA, then be CHIKARA, but fully commit.
Why are you assuming they're going to take it back? All you need to do is downplay it when it's not relevant (like Kane & Taker, or Kane being Paul Bearer's son). Even after being acknowledged on-screen, Dean & Renee's relationship has barely been made relevant, but it hasn't gotten in the way of anything, either. It would certainly help if Jordan had any sort of character of his own (another reason that breaking up American Alpha hurts him) but I don't see how this will be any sort of a kayfabe logic problem.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by cero2k » Jul 18th, '17, 16:15

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 15:26

The issue is that we saw no previous indication that these guys had anything in their systems that they felt any need to get out. This was not Matt Riddle and TJP in EVOLVE last year where Riddle was being a dick to most of his Catchpoint teammates for months before TJP finally said he was sick of his sh*t. And the Royal Rumble comparison also falls apart in many ways:

1. There was no reason for the other two to get involved. Do you really think that if Catchpoint- a group known for tolerating infighting- were in a battle royale and just Dickinson and Williams were left and Jaka did a run-in to try to eliminate Williams in order to help Dickinson, that Williams wouldn't be pissed at Jaka?

2. They didn't just wrestle each other, they used weapons. You don't think that if Matt and Jeff were the first two guys in the Royal Rumble and Matt had Jeff down so rolled under the bottom rope to the floor to get a chair and started beating Jeff with the chair that Jeff wouldn't be pissed? And this goes doubly so for the seconds, who had absolutely nothing on the line in this match. You say things that "they likely give each other sh*t all day," but we've seen no evidence of this... and I don't really see Suzuki as the kind of leader who would tolerate anything but perfect discipline.

3. When one guy thinks his friend betrayed him in the Royal Rumble, it usually DOES lead to something, and that's without any actual cheating involved. At the very least it would be addressed in some kind of segment over the next week or two, and the lack of trust between them would at the very least become a short-term storyline.
there doesn't need to be any previous indication that there is beef between them, they're thugs, they use weapons, they low blow each other, that's what they do. Your comparison with Catchpoint doesn't work because they're about competition, specifically, of the athletic type. These guys just like to fight, it's their personality, there is no righteousness in a gang like Suzuki Gun or LIJ or even Bullet Club. Catchpoint or PAB in the overall scheme of things SHOULD be babyfaces because it's all about being the best, they're just dicks about it. The NJPW 'heel' stables (in quotations because i don't believe in heel/face dynamics in NJPW) are not exactly about being the best wrestlers in the world, two of them are about fighting the system and the other is just about being thugs.

The rumble example doesn't exactly have to play out with every single detail, but the idea is there, we're partners as long as there is no title between us, and sure as hell Chainsaw Charlie and Cactus Jack had hardcore fights in a Rumble in 97ish. There is a huge difference between using a chair behind your partner's back to win, and cheating/outsmarting/going hardcore against your partner in order to win. I can respect you pulling a knife on me in a fight, but not stabbing me in the back when I'm not looking, especially if I see you pull that same knife with everyone you fight anyway.

Your difference between face and heel is really clear cut, it's like there is no space for anything else, but that's not how all wrestling is portrayed. Okada is not a face or heel, he's just motherfucking Okada with his own personality, who some find awesome, some find cocky. Naito people relate to in the 'IDGAF' life, some find it quite disrespectful. YOSHI-HASHI wasn't out of character for not respecting Nagata, he's here to win a tournament and it doesn't matter if it's a legend, a rookie, his best friend, or an enemy, he's here to win a tournament and he'll do whatever it takes to do it. No unnecessary soap opera.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 15:26
Why are you assuming they're going to take it back? All you need to do is downplay it when it's not relevant (like Kane & Taker, or Kane being Paul Bearer's son). Even after being acknowledged on-screen, Dean & Renee's relationship has barely been made relevant, but it hasn't gotten in the way of anything, either. It would certainly help if Jordan had any sort of character of his own (another reason that breaking up American Alpha hurts him) but I don't see how this will be any sort of a kayfabe logic problem.
I don't think they're gonna take it back, WWE doesn't respect their audience enough to even try and take it back, they'll just ignore it and pretend it never happened. We can't blame ourselves for making assumptions, because in your gedo arguments, you always assume too that his booking will be shit. I do the same with WWE.

This is not about kayfabe logical problems, this is straight up to add unnecessary drama and kayfabe details. Imagine that 10 yrs from now, Jason Jordan has become the new John Cena of the WWE, poster boy, 10 world champion, and doing all those interviews in Good Morning USA and what not, he will forever be Kurt Angle's son, just the same way that Mae Young and Mark Henry have a son, that is a huge hand, just the same way that Eddie Guerrero is the father of Rey Mysterio's son, so if Dominick ever debuts, he's Eddie Guerrero's son. There's no logical problems with any of that, they're just stupid details that will forever have to exist because WWE tells shit stories.

Taker and Kane NEVER stopped being brothers, and in that same way, JJ will always be Angle's son. If JJ ends up sucking a year from now and gets placed as a member of 3MB, Angle's son will be a member of 3MB.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 18th, '17, 22:01

cero2k wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 16:15
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 15:26

The issue is that we saw no previous indication that these guys had anything in their systems that they felt any need to get out. This was not Matt Riddle and TJP in EVOLVE last year where Riddle was being a dick to most of his Catchpoint teammates for months before TJP finally said he was sick of his sh*t. And the Royal Rumble comparison also falls apart in many ways:

1. There was no reason for the other two to get involved. Do you really think that if Catchpoint- a group known for tolerating infighting- were in a battle royale and just Dickinson and Williams were left and Jaka did a run-in to try to eliminate Williams in order to help Dickinson, that Williams wouldn't be pissed at Jaka?

2. They didn't just wrestle each other, they used weapons. You don't think that if Matt and Jeff were the first two guys in the Royal Rumble and Matt had Jeff down so rolled under the bottom rope to the floor to get a chair and started beating Jeff with the chair that Jeff wouldn't be pissed? And this goes doubly so for the seconds, who had absolutely nothing on the line in this match. You say things that "they likely give each other sh*t all day," but we've seen no evidence of this... and I don't really see Suzuki as the kind of leader who would tolerate anything but perfect discipline.

3. When one guy thinks his friend betrayed him in the Royal Rumble, it usually DOES lead to something, and that's without any actual cheating involved. At the very least it would be addressed in some kind of segment over the next week or two, and the lack of trust between them would at the very least become a short-term storyline.
there doesn't need to be any previous indication that there is beef between them, they're thugs, they use weapons, they low blow each other, that's what they do. Your comparison with Catchpoint doesn't work because they're about competition, specifically, of the athletic type. These guys just like to fight, it's their personality, there is no righteousness in a gang like Suzuki Gun or LIJ or even Bullet Club. Catchpoint or PAB in the overall scheme of things SHOULD be babyfaces because it's all about being the best, they're just dicks about it. The NJPW 'heel' stables (in quotations because i don't believe in heel/face dynamics in NJPW) are not exactly about being the best wrestlers in the world, two of them are about fighting the system and the other is just about being thugs.

The rumble example doesn't exactly have to play out with every single detail, but the idea is there, we're partners as long as there is no title between us, and sure as hell Chainsaw Charlie and Cactus Jack had hardcore fights in a Rumble in 97ish. There is a huge difference between using a chair behind your partner's back to win, and cheating/outsmarting/going hardcore against your partner in order to win. I can respect you pulling a knife on me in a fight, but not stabbing me in the back when I'm not looking, especially if I see you pull that same knife with everyone you fight anyway.

Your difference between face and heel is really clear cut, it's like there is no space for anything else, but that's not how all wrestling is portrayed. Okada is not a face or heel, he's just motherfucking Okada with his own personality, who some find awesome, some find cocky. Naito people relate to in the 'IDGAF' life, some find it quite disrespectful. YOSHI-HASHI wasn't out of character for not respecting Nagata, he's here to win a tournament and it doesn't matter if it's a legend, a rookie, his best friend, or an enemy, he's here to win a tournament and he'll do whatever it takes to do it. No unnecessary soap opera.
They don't low blow each other. They low blow other people. Most of these guys weren't this sort of cheating heel when they joined the group. I picked Catchpoint as an example specifically because they are a group where we would expect infighting to be more accepted, and even with them such a thing would cause an issue. Infighting isn't accepted in Suzuki-Gun. Aside from this one match we have always seen them put on a united front, in both New Japan and NOAH. The lone exception was an angle a few years ago where TAKA and Taichi blamed each other for losing and they were going to have a match, which ended in a no-contest when Suzuki ordered them to not do this divisive stuff and be a team again and they were. There might not be righteousness in a heel stable, but there sure is loyalty and mutual respect. Why else would they interfere in each other's matches all the time?

I don't understand how you can say things like you "don't believe in face/heel dynamics in New Japan." There are some people we are clearly meant to cheer for and others we are clearly meant to boo. Otherwise there would be issue with, say Yujiro cheating to help AJ win the title from Okada, or BUSHI spraying his mist in KUSHIDA’s face so he can beat him for the title. There are thing that you’re clearly not allowed to do and anyone who does those things anyway is a cheater and thus should be disliked and is thus a heel.
I also don’t see how you can say that Bullet Club and LIJ are about “fighting the system.” When have they ever said that? They’re just heels who do douchy things and often cheat. That’s it. I don’t see how you can go around ascribing this anti-authoritarian motive to them when they have not said or done a single thing that would ever make anyone think that they have any sort of larger goal than “win wrestling matches and championships.” What have they done that makes them any different from, say Planet Jarrett or The Kingdom or the nWo or the Triple Threat?

Foley and Funk are an extreme example (pardon the pun), but even in that case each guy came out with his weapon bared. One of them didn’t go get plunder in the middle of their brawl. In almost every other case such a thing does lead to at least temporary trust issues between the partners involved.
If you’re my partner and we’re in a fight where the rules are “no weapons allowed” and you pull a knife on me, I’m going to be pretty pissed. Even if we would usually ignore such rules to screw over other people, you don’t pull your knife on me because we’re partners and you should treat me (and the rest of our group) with more respect that you’d treat someone outside of the group. Even if I happened to have brought my knife, too, you’re still doing something wrong because by pulling yours out first without making sure that I brought mine and giving me the chance to pull it out, too, you’re gaining an unfair disadvantage over me (which is exactly what this is because we’re supposed to believe that hitting someone with a low blow then going for the pin, or blinding them, or using a weapon on them is a major advantage that usually leads to at least a nearfall), which you’ve done by taking advantage of my trust.

What do you mean Okada isn’t a babyface? He stays within the rules and is generally nice to people who have been nice to him, and never backs down from a fight. That’s what babyfaces do. I’m sure people can identify with Naito’s overall attitude, but disrespecting the belt is a heel move, period. Meanwhile, he and his pals cheat 99% of the time. Ergo, they’re heels.
YOSHI-HASHI, who has always been the consummate undercard babyface, was being disrespectful to his opponent for absolutely no reason. How do those little annoying tap-kicks help someone win the match or the tournament? They don’t, and the announcers always portray them as being disrespectful, warning that the guy doing them had better stop screwing around or else he might lose the advantage he current has.
The very definition of “unnecessary soap opera” to me is f*ckers kicking their friends in the nuts or being dicks to other people completely out of the blue. I want less soap opera. That’s why these things that demand soap opera follow-up bother me when I don’t get that follow-up. Because if your goal is to not do a soap opera, you shouldn’t be doing this sh*t in the first place, and if your goal is to do a soap opera then you need to do it right and follow up on things that require follow-up.
cero2k wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 16:15
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 15:26
Why are you assuming they're going to take it back? All you need to do is downplay it when it's not relevant (like Kane & Taker, or Kane being Paul Bearer's son). Even after being acknowledged on-screen, Dean & Renee's relationship has barely been made relevant, but it hasn't gotten in the way of anything, either. It would certainly help if Jordan had any sort of character of his own (another reason that breaking up American Alpha hurts him) but I don't see how this will be any sort of a kayfabe logic problem.
I don't think they're gonna take it back, WWE doesn't respect their audience enough to even try and take it back, they'll just ignore it and pretend it never happened. We can't blame ourselves for making assumptions, because in your gedo arguments, you always assume too that his booking will be shit. I do the same with WWE.

This is not about kayfabe logical problems, this is straight up to add unnecessary drama and kayfabe details. Imagine that 10 yrs from now, Jason Jordan has become the new John Cena of the WWE, poster boy, 10 world champion, and doing all those interviews in Good Morning USA and what not, he will forever be Kurt Angle's son, just the same way that Mae Young and Mark Henry have a son, that is a huge hand, just the same way that Eddie Guerrero is the father of Rey Mysterio's son, so if Dominick ever debuts, he's Eddie Guerrero's son. There's no logical problems with any of that, they're just stupid details that will forever have to exist because WWE tells shit stories.

Taker and Kane NEVER stopped being brothers, and in that same way, JJ will always be Angle's son. If JJ ends up sucking a year from now and gets placed as a member of 3MB, Angle's son will be a member of 3MB.
We’ve both earned the right to assume what we assume from those companies due to their past track records. I just don’t see why you think this will be that much of an issue, even if the story sucks. The fact that Kane and Taker never stopped being brothers is exactly my point: they never stopped being brothers, but they were both able to have their own careers well away from the other one even with that. They never stopped being brothers, but the fact that they were brothers was only relevant every few years or so, and it didn’t get in the way.
Yes, it’s a stupid little detail that probably won’t matter a lick in a few years, but it doesn’t get in the way, either. It’s not like making him Kurt’s son means that you can only do stories that revolve around that fact. So what if Kurt Angle’s kid becomes a member of 3MB? Ted Dibiase’s kid was feuding with Hunico and Camacho over not being invited to a party or something stupid like that. There are lots of famous athletes whose children weren’t as good as they were. It happens. Sometimes you get Randy Orton and sometimes you get David Sammartino. The fact that he had a kayfabe son who never got pushed won’t tarnish Kurt legacy in any way and the fact that he had a kayfabe son who got pushed to the moon won’t help Kurt’s legacy in any way, so who cares of Jason Jordan is Kurt’s kayfabe son or not?
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by cero2k » Jul 19th, '17, 10:36

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 22:01

I don't understand how you can say things like you "don't believe in face/heel dynamics in New Japan." There are some people we are clearly meant to cheer for and others we are clearly meant to boo. Otherwise there would be issue with, say Yujiro cheating to help AJ win the title from Okada, or BUSHI spraying his mist in KUSHIDA’s face so he can beat him for the title. There are thing that you’re clearly not allowed to do and anyone who does those things anyway is a cheater and thus should be disliked and is thus a heel.

If you’re my partner and we’re in a fight where the rules are “no weapons allowed” and you pull a knife on me, I’m going to be pretty pissed. Even if we would usually ignore such rules to screw over other people, you don’t pull your knife on me because we’re partners and you should treat me (and the rest of our group) with more respect that you’d treat someone outside of the group.
No! You're not meant to cheer or boo for anyone they tell you! You can boo and cheer whoever you want! I don't like white meat babyfaces and USA patriots, I'm NEVER gonna cheer for them, I will forever cheer the wrestler that fights the authority. this is why there may not be a point in this discussion, you obviously see everything as babyface and heel, I see characters. I don't want to watch the same YOSHI-HASHI in every match, I wanna see how he acts differently when he's fighting Suzuki or when he's fighting Elgin, I wanna see Naito be cheered in Sapporo and hated in Osaka and thus he acts differently. I like to see beyond what they show on TV, they don't need to show me on vignettes that Suzuki Gun play around low blowing each other to understand why it happens on a match, I can make those connections and make my wrestling better, but you know what I can't do, stop remembering that a zombie wrestler is brother to a corporate stooge who was once also able to control lighting. As much as I want, I can't make connections making sense in Mae Young giving birth to both a hand and an already existing hornswoggle.

Unnecessary soap opera is not two dudes giving each other low blows on a match, it's just a match. Unnecessary soap opera is doing twists that you can't undo, like a father/son story. I'm not worried about whether is gonna create a problem in the future, because like i said, WWE doesn't respect its audience, but let's not pretend like this is a quality product.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 22:01
I also don’t see how you can say that Bullet Club and LIJ are about “fighting the system.” When have they ever said that? They’re just heels who do douchy things and often cheat. That’s it. I don’t see how you can go around ascribing this anti-authoritarian motive to them when they have not said or done a single thing that would ever make anyone think that they have any sort of larger goal than “win wrestling matches and championships.” What have they done that makes them any different from, say Planet Jarrett or The Kingdom or the nWo or the Triple Threat?
Bullet Club joined together because the Gaijins needed to protect each other against the mistreatment of the japanese office. LIJ formed both in Mexico and Japan because they were against the shit fans gave them and the office trying to tell them how to they're supposed to be. That is literally Naito's gimmick
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 19th, '17, 12:13

cero2k wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 10:36
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 22:01

I don't understand how you can say things like you "don't believe in face/heel dynamics in New Japan." There are some people we are clearly meant to cheer for and others we are clearly meant to boo. Otherwise there would be issue with, say Yujiro cheating to help AJ win the title from Okada, or BUSHI spraying his mist in KUSHIDA’s face so he can beat him for the title. There are thing that you’re clearly not allowed to do and anyone who does those things anyway is a cheater and thus should be disliked and is thus a heel.

If you’re my partner and we’re in a fight where the rules are “no weapons allowed” and you pull a knife on me, I’m going to be pretty pissed. Even if we would usually ignore such rules to screw over other people, you don’t pull your knife on me because we’re partners and you should treat me (and the rest of our group) with more respect that you’d treat someone outside of the group.
No! You're not meant to cheer or boo for anyone they tell you! You can boo and cheer whoever you want! I don't like white meat babyfaces and USA patriots, I'm NEVER gonna cheer for them, I will forever cheer the wrestler that fights the authority. this is why there may not be a point in this discussion, you obviously see everything as babyface and heel, I see characters. I don't want to watch the same YOSHI-HASHI in every match, I wanna see how he acts differently when he's fighting Suzuki or when he's fighting Elgin, I wanna see Naito be cheered in Sapporo and hated in Osaka and thus he acts differently. I like to see beyond what they show on TV, they don't need to show me on vignettes that Suzuki Gun play around low blowing each other to understand why it happens on a match, I can make those connections and make my wrestling better, but you know what I can't do, stop remembering that a zombie wrestler is brother to a corporate stooge who was once also able to control lighting. As much as I want, I can't make connections making sense in Mae Young giving birth to both a hand and an already existing hornswoggle.

Unnecessary soap opera is not two dudes giving each other low blows on a match, it's just a match. Unnecessary soap opera is doing twists that you can't undo, like a father/son story. I'm not worried about whether is gonna create a problem in the future, because like i said, WWE doesn't respect its audience, but let's not pretend like this is a quality product.
I understand liking characters rather than traditional babyface/heel alignment, but I don't understand where you are getting this idea from that LIJ or Bullet Club are "fighting authority." I get that it's in LIJ's name, but nothing they or Bullet Club do comes across to me as "fighting authority." They're just fighting other wrestlers. And I'm not saying that "fighting authority" has to be as blatant as Austin vs. Vince or Dragon vs. The Authority, but I don't see anything these guys are doing (with the exception of Cody's weird angle in ROH) as even remotely being "fighting authority."
No, we shouldn't have the same YOSHI-HASHI in every match, but if he is going to stray from the baseline YOSHI-HASHI, there needs to be a reason for it. That reason can be as simple as a "the other guy did something unsporting so now YOSHI-HASHI is pissed off" or that he really needs a win so he is going to be grim and determined all match long, but there has to be something to explain why the YOSHI-HASHI I see today is acting differently from the YOSHI-HASHI I saw yesterday. There was nothing that Nagata did that warranted the disrespect that YOSHI-HASHI showed him.
As for "looking past the TV,"
1. Most people won't do that, so it is in New Japan's best interests to give some sort of explanation.
2. I don't understand how you can do that for this and yet get so bent out of shape about the idea of Kurt Angle unknowingly fathering Jason Jordan.

It just doesn't compute to me how you can be so bothered by stuff that isn't on your screen at the moment and yet not be bothered by things that are. Does Kane and Taker being brothers really bother you when you're watching Dean Ambrose vs. Miz or whatever?

You can say that stuff is "unnecessary soap opera" but a lot of that stuff is absolutely not unnecessary. If Kane isn't Taker's brother, then what is he? WWE had had a million big dudes show up. That's what Glenn Jacobs is. He's Unabomb, and Unabomb was just a big dude. But make him The Undertaker's dark secret and make him his brother- a copy of The Undertaker with all of his moves and powers, but even bigger, and completely deranged due mental scarring left on him by the fire that Paul Bearer has told him was caused by The Undertaker, and now he's a big, dangerous, scary motherf*cker who is different from everyone who has come before him- aside from The Undertaker, where the similarity is purposeful. This also creates a situation that lets Glenn Jacobs not talk until you think he's ready to (which also allows you to build up to this big moment of the Kane character first talking), but you can make use of that lack of talking to make the character different by implying that he can't talk rather than that he just chooses to employ a manager to talk for him like everyone else does.

What is Raven in ECW without this "unnecessary soap opera" you so despise? Raven needed the contrasting "perfect life/childhood" of Tommy Dreamer to make his character shine. The Raven vs. Sandman feud is just another meh ECW feud with "good but not great" matches and probably some good promos by Raven... if you don't add in the Lori & Tyler family dynamic- and that feud was just about as "soap opera" as you can get.

Like it or not, this storyline gives Jason Jordan more direction and motivation than he has ever had before as a singles wrestler. Now he's got a long-lost father to impress, and whose reputation he has to carry the weight of living up to.

Yes. Mae Young once gave birth to a hand. It was possibly the single stupidest thing to ever happen in pro wrestling. But every company does something stupid at some point. In every single one of their matches in New Japan Toru Yano and Ricochet each do a spot where they either hit someone with a GIANT PAD or kick a GIANT PAD into someone, I'm supposed to believe that hurts that person more to be hit with a soft pad than if he had just hit or kicked them in the head. If you want to hold that thing against the promotion as a whole then that's fine, but to hold it against everything they try to do is not.

As for partners giving each other low blows during a match, you can say that perhaps it's not "unnecessary soap opera," but to do it and not follow up on it in any way is sh*tty writing, plain and simple. You can't assume that the audience will fill in their own backstory for you. Same with the YOSHI-HASHI thing. You can't have your characters completely change behaviors from day to do with no explanation. They're characters. Their attitudes cannot be dependent on the needs of the plot; the plot is supposed to shape their attitudes and guide their emotions.
cero2k wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 10:36
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 18th, '17, 22:01
I also don’t see how you can say that Bullet Club and LIJ are about “fighting the system.” When have they ever said that? They’re just heels who do douchy things and often cheat. That’s it. I don’t see how you can go around ascribing this anti-authoritarian motive to them when they have not said or done a single thing that would ever make anyone think that they have any sort of larger goal than “win wrestling matches and championships.” What have they done that makes them any different from, say Planet Jarrett or The Kingdom or the nWo or the Triple Threat?
Bullet Club joined together because the Gaijins needed to protect each other against the mistreatment of the japanese office. LIJ formed both in Mexico and Japan because they were against the shit fans gave them and the office trying to tell them how to they're supposed to be. That is literally Naito's gimmick
Where is this story coming from that Bullet Club got together to protect gaijin from discrimination by the Japanese? You're forgetting that the first guy Devitt tried to get to turn heel after he turned heel by being a dick to Tanahashi when Tanahashi tried to show him respect with a post-match handshake was Taguchi. Nowhere did we ever see discrimination against the gaijin any more than you might see with anyone facing a hometown guy. Devitt was over huge as a babyface before he went heel. Shelley was over huge as part of Time Splitters. Anderson got pushed better than any gaijin had in the past decade before he joined Bullet Club. If it was all about the gaijin then why did they let Yujiro join?
Maybe I'll give you Naito, although I haven't seen it has him lashing out at authority figures trying to tell him how to act so much as him going out of his way to provoke them by disrespecting the belt, but LIJ as a whole does not seem motivated by any anti-authoritarian bent other than the fact that they cheat, which in and of itself does not make you anti-authoritarian. What does, for example, Sanada do to be anti-authoritarian?
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by cero2k » Jul 19th, '17, 15:31

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 12:13

I understand liking characters rather than traditional babyface/heel alignment, but I don't understand where you are getting this idea from that LIJ or Bullet Club are "fighting authority." I get that it's in LIJ's name, but nothing they or Bullet Club do comes across to me as "fighting authority." They're just fighting other wrestlers. And I'm not saying that "fighting authority" has to be as blatant as Austin vs. Vince or Dragon vs. The Authority, but I don't see anything these guys are doing (with the exception of Cody's weird angle in ROH) as even remotely being "fighting authority."
No, we shouldn't have the same YOSHI-HASHI in every match, but if he is going to stray from the baseline YOSHI-HASHI, there needs to be a reason for it. That reason can be as simple as a "the other guy did something unsporting so now YOSHI-HASHI is pissed off" or that he really needs a win so he is going to be grim and determined all match long, but there has to be something to explain why the YOSHI-HASHI I see today is acting differently from the YOSHI-HASHI I saw yesterday. There was nothing that Nagata did that warranted the disrespect that YOSHI-HASHI showed him.
As for "looking past the TV,"
1. Most people won't do that, so it is in New Japan's best interests to give some sort of explanation.
2. I don't understand how you can do that for this and yet get so bent out of shape about the idea of Kurt Angle unknowingly fathering Jason Jordan.

It just doesn't compute to me how you can be so bothered by stuff that isn't on your screen at the moment and yet not be bothered by things that are. Does Kane and Taker being brothers really bother you when you're watching Dean Ambrose vs. Miz or whatever?

You can say that stuff is "unnecessary soap opera" but a lot of that stuff is absolutely not unnecessary. If Kane isn't Taker's brother, then what is he? WWE had had a million big dudes show up. That's what Glenn Jacobs is. He's Unabomb, and Unabomb was just a big dude. But make him The Undertaker's dark secret and make him his brother- a copy of The Undertaker with all of his moves and powers, but even bigger, and completely deranged due mental scarring left on him by the fire that Paul Bearer has told him was caused by The Undertaker, and now he's a big, dangerous, scary motherf*cker who is different from everyone who has come before him- aside from The Undertaker, where the similarity is purposeful. This also creates a situation that lets Glenn Jacobs not talk until you think he's ready to (which also allows you to build up to this big moment of the Kane character first talking), but you can make use of that lack of talking to make the character different by implying that he can't talk rather than that he just chooses to employ a manager to talk for him like everyone else does.

What is Raven in ECW without this "unnecessary soap opera" you so despise? Raven needed the contrasting "perfect life/childhood" of Tommy Dreamer to make his character shine. The Raven vs. Sandman feud is just another meh ECW feud with "good but not great" matches and probably some good promos by Raven... if you don't add in the Lori & Tyler family dynamic- and that feud was just about as "soap opera" as you can get.

Like it or not, this storyline gives Jason Jordan more direction and motivation than he has ever had before as a singles wrestler. Now he's got a long-lost father to impress, and whose reputation he has to carry the weight of living up to.

Yes. Mae Young once gave birth to a hand. It was possibly the single stupidest thing to ever happen in pro wrestling. But every company does something stupid at some point. In every single one of their matches in New Japan Toru Yano and Ricochet each do a spot where they either hit someone with a GIANT PAD or kick a GIANT PAD into someone, I'm supposed to believe that hurts that person more to be hit with a soft pad than if he had just hit or kicked them in the head. If you want to hold that thing against the promotion as a whole then that's fine, but to hold it against everything they try to do is not.

As for partners giving each other low blows during a match, you can say that perhaps it's not "unnecessary soap opera," but to do it and not follow up on it in any way is sh*tty writing, plain and simple. You can't assume that the audience will fill in their own backstory for you. Same with the YOSHI-HASHI thing. You can't have your characters completely change behaviors from day to do with no explanation. They're characters. Their attitudes cannot be dependent on the needs of the plot; the plot is supposed to shape their attitudes and guide their emotions.
Taker/Kane made sense because it was an introduction of a character that existed as a brother in the scope of canon, they didn't just pick two similar gimmicks and said, oh hey, they're brothers now. If they suddenly say next week that Curtis Axel and Daniel Bryan are long lost brothers, you'd be totally ok with it? You wouldn't consider it completely stupid to take these two already established characters which we know for a FACT they're not related at all and try to pretend that they're brothers?

i never said it bothers me that Kane and Taker are brothers, I'm just saying that it's canon and whatever happens to each, they have to remain brothers all the time, that's it. But at least it was necessary for the story back then with Kane and Taker. Now, JJ doesn't need to be Angle's son to get over, they were over when they got here, if they want to push as a single's wrestler, sure, push him, make him Angle's PROTEGE if it's that important, hell, do a story where JJ is adopted by angle and earns the name, this is a story that happens tons of times in Mexico, but don't just try to pretend JJ is his actual son from when Angle was fucking in college. Is Sasha Banks Triple H's daughter from when he was with ring rats in DX? no, of course not, it's unnecessary to do that in order to push her. This is Russo adding unnecessary controversy for the sake of doing it. There are many things you can do that are quite irrelevant in the big scope of things, but some stick and you can't just ignore them, unless you don't care about insult your audience's intelligence. Swoggle will be forever a former GM of RAW.

Ok, it's true, maybe a lot of people won't fill in the blanks on their own, but I also don't think a lot of people need historical reference and a full follow-through of Taichi doing the same thing he does every match, but with Taka now, or why Taka didn't break apart from the team and start a blood feud, or why YOSHI-HASHI was in a bad mood on sunday, do you really need to know why he had a bad mood?

also, giant pads are not meant to hurt, they're meant to disorient you AND they can actually give you a concussion.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 12:13
Where is this story coming from that Bullet Club got together to protect gaijin from discrimination by the Japanese? You're forgetting that the first guy Devitt tried to get to turn heel after he turned heel by being a dick to Tanahashi when Tanahashi tried to show him respect with a post-match handshake was Taguchi. Nowhere did we ever see discrimination against the gaijin any more than you might see with anyone facing a hometown guy. Devitt was over huge as a babyface before he went heel. Shelley was over huge as part of Time Splitters. Anderson got pushed better than any gaijin had in the past decade before he joined Bullet Club. If it was all about the gaijin then why did they let Yujiro join?
Maybe I'll give you Naito, although I haven't seen it has him lashing out at authority figures trying to tell him how to act so much as him going out of his way to provoke them by disrespecting the belt, but LIJ as a whole does not seem motivated by any anti-authoritarian bent other than the fact that they cheat, which in and of itself does not make you anti-authoritarian. What does, for example, Sanada do to be anti-authoritarian?
I'm pretty sure when Devitt announces he is going to the heavyweight division, there was something about being kept down in the jr division. I probably shouldn't have used mistreatment as a word, but BC was at one point the us vs Japan (that is Japanese wrestling oldest story), so not literal fighting an authority figure, but surely a 'we gotta stick together to help each other' deal because gaijins don't make it to the top of NJPW.

Naito doesn't have to lash against any authority figure. wrestling is not literal. fighting authority is fighting what the office wants you to be, fighting society telling you how to act, being outcasts, anarchy, fighting against what Big Red Machine defines as babyface.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 19th, '17, 19:17

cero2k wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 15:31
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 12:13

I understand liking characters rather than traditional babyface/heel alignment, but I don't understand where you are getting this idea from that LIJ or Bullet Club are "fighting authority." I get that it's in LIJ's name, but nothing they or Bullet Club do comes across to me as "fighting authority." They're just fighting other wrestlers. And I'm not saying that "fighting authority" has to be as blatant as Austin vs. Vince or Dragon vs. The Authority, but I don't see anything these guys are doing (with the exception of Cody's weird angle in ROH) as even remotely being "fighting authority."
No, we shouldn't have the same YOSHI-HASHI in every match, but if he is going to stray from the baseline YOSHI-HASHI, there needs to be a reason for it. That reason can be as simple as a "the other guy did something unsporting so now YOSHI-HASHI is pissed off" or that he really needs a win so he is going to be grim and determined all match long, but there has to be something to explain why the YOSHI-HASHI I see today is acting differently from the YOSHI-HASHI I saw yesterday. There was nothing that Nagata did that warranted the disrespect that YOSHI-HASHI showed him.
As for "looking past the TV,"
1. Most people won't do that, so it is in New Japan's best interests to give some sort of explanation.
2. I don't understand how you can do that for this and yet get so bent out of shape about the idea of Kurt Angle unknowingly fathering Jason Jordan.

It just doesn't compute to me how you can be so bothered by stuff that isn't on your screen at the moment and yet not be bothered by things that are. Does Kane and Taker being brothers really bother you when you're watching Dean Ambrose vs. Miz or whatever?

You can say that stuff is "unnecessary soap opera" but a lot of that stuff is absolutely not unnecessary. If Kane isn't Taker's brother, then what is he? WWE had had a million big dudes show up. That's what Glenn Jacobs is. He's Unabomb, and Unabomb was just a big dude. But make him The Undertaker's dark secret and make him his brother- a copy of The Undertaker with all of his moves and powers, but even bigger, and completely deranged due mental scarring left on him by the fire that Paul Bearer has told him was caused by The Undertaker, and now he's a big, dangerous, scary motherf*cker who is different from everyone who has come before him- aside from The Undertaker, where the similarity is purposeful. This also creates a situation that lets Glenn Jacobs not talk until you think he's ready to (which also allows you to build up to this big moment of the Kane character first talking), but you can make use of that lack of talking to make the character different by implying that he can't talk rather than that he just chooses to employ a manager to talk for him like everyone else does.

What is Raven in ECW without this "unnecessary soap opera" you so despise? Raven needed the contrasting "perfect life/childhood" of Tommy Dreamer to make his character shine. The Raven vs. Sandman feud is just another meh ECW feud with "good but not great" matches and probably some good promos by Raven... if you don't add in the Lori & Tyler family dynamic- and that feud was just about as "soap opera" as you can get.

Like it or not, this storyline gives Jason Jordan more direction and motivation than he has ever had before as a singles wrestler. Now he's got a long-lost father to impress, and whose reputation he has to carry the weight of living up to.

Yes. Mae Young once gave birth to a hand. It was possibly the single stupidest thing to ever happen in pro wrestling. But every company does something stupid at some point. In every single one of their matches in New Japan Toru Yano and Ricochet each do a spot where they either hit someone with a GIANT PAD or kick a GIANT PAD into someone, I'm supposed to believe that hurts that person more to be hit with a soft pad than if he had just hit or kicked them in the head. If you want to hold that thing against the promotion as a whole then that's fine, but to hold it against everything they try to do is not.

As for partners giving each other low blows during a match, you can say that perhaps it's not "unnecessary soap opera," but to do it and not follow up on it in any way is sh*tty writing, plain and simple. You can't assume that the audience will fill in their own backstory for you. Same with the YOSHI-HASHI thing. You can't have your characters completely change behaviors from day to do with no explanation. They're characters. Their attitudes cannot be dependent on the needs of the plot; the plot is supposed to shape their attitudes and guide their emotions.
Taker/Kane made sense because it was an introduction of a character that existed as a brother in the scope of canon, they didn't just pick two similar gimmicks and said, oh hey, they're brothers now. If they suddenly say next week that Curtis Axel and Daniel Bryan are long lost brothers, you'd be totally ok with it? You wouldn't consider it completely stupid to take these two already established characters which we know for a FACT they're not related at all and try to pretend that they're brothers?

i never said it bothers me that Kane and Taker are brothers, I'm just saying that it's canon and whatever happens to each, they have to remain brothers all the time, that's it. But at least it was necessary for the story back then with Kane and Taker. Now, JJ doesn't need to be Angle's son to get over, they were over when they got here, if they want to push as a single's wrestler, sure, push him, make him Angle's PROTEGE if it's that important, hell, do a story where JJ is adopted by angle and earns the name, this is a story that happens tons of times in Mexico, but don't just try to pretend JJ is his actual son from when Angle was fucking in college. Is Sasha Banks Triple H's daughter from when he was with ring rats in DX? no, of course not, it's unnecessary to do that in order to push her. This is Russo adding unnecessary controversy for the sake of doing it. There are many things you can do that are quite irrelevant in the big scope of things, but some stick and you can't just ignore them, unless you don't care about insult your audience's intelligence. Swoggle will be forever a former GM of RAW.
I don't see why this is so problematic here. Jordan didn't need to be Angle's kid to get over, but I do think it will help him get over faster than even if he was just Kurt's protege. Most of us don't have proteges, but most of us do have fathers and/or sons, so this makes the relationship more relatable to the audience.
It's also not impossible that this isn't about Jason Jordan so much as it is about Kurt needing to have a long-lost son for some reason and Jordan was the guy who was both a plausible age and looked decently enough like Kurt. Maybe the ultimate plan is to do Hunter vs. Angle with control of Raw on the line, and way that Hunter gets Kurt mad enough to agree to the stip is by assaulting the long-lost son that Kurt has only recently reconnected with (think the Flair-Taker build for WM18 with Taker going after David and threatening the rest of Flair's kids when attacking Arn didn't get him the result he wanted).
I don't mind them doing this sort of thing once in a blue moon, and the last time we had a long-lost family member show up was the Vince/Swoggle thing, which was an entire decade ago. There is a big difference between this and Swoggle being the Raw GM. The Swoggle thing was problematic because it was contradicted by visual evidence. This, while soap opera-ish, does not contractdict anything we've seen, and it is theoretically plausible. Therefore I don't find it to be insulting.
cero2k wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 15:31
Ok, it's true, maybe a lot of people won't fill in the blanks on their own, but I also don't think a lot of people need historical reference and a full follow-through of Taichi doing the same thing he does every match, but with Taka now, or why Taka didn't break apart from the team and start a blood feud, or why YOSHI-HASHI was in a bad mood on sunday, do you really need to know why he had a bad mood?
I think some things are big enough that they do require follow-through, and guys in the same stable suddenly kicking each other in the nuts and using weapons on each other definitely qualifies. We've never seen them do this to each other before, so the fact that they did do it is quite startling. If this had happened in any other promotion in the world- be it in North America, Japan Europe, or Australia- people would have been sh*tting all over it. You can either have storylines or you can just throw random names together on every show and not try to have any continuity. New Japan has clearly chosen to have storylines. Hence the Cody/Omega angle. If guys on the outside trying to f*ck a stablemate out of a chance to win prestigious prize doesn't matter here, then why should it matter there?

As for YOSHI-HASHI, I don't necessarily need to know why he is in a bad mood, but it would be nice to be told that he is in one so that him disrespecting a legend with whom he has no quarrel doesn't seem completely out of nowhere.
cero2k wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 15:31
also, giant pads are not meant to hurt, they're meant to disorient you AND they can actually give you a concussion.
Maybe I can buy that for the way Yano does it, but not for Ricochet's dumb 619 in the corner thing.
cero2k wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 15:31
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 12:13
Where is this story coming from that Bullet Club got together to protect gaijin from discrimination by the Japanese? You're forgetting that the first guy Devitt tried to get to turn heel after he turned heel by being a dick to Tanahashi when Tanahashi tried to show him respect with a post-match handshake was Taguchi. Nowhere did we ever see discrimination against the gaijin any more than you might see with anyone facing a hometown guy. Devitt was over huge as a babyface before he went heel. Shelley was over huge as part of Time Splitters. Anderson got pushed better than any gaijin had in the past decade before he joined Bullet Club. If it was all about the gaijin then why did they let Yujiro join?
Maybe I'll give you Naito, although I haven't seen it has him lashing out at authority figures trying to tell him how to act so much as him going out of his way to provoke them by disrespecting the belt, but LIJ as a whole does not seem motivated by any anti-authoritarian bent other than the fact that they cheat, which in and of itself does not make you anti-authoritarian. What does, for example, Sanada do to be anti-authoritarian?
I'm pretty sure when Devitt announces he is going to the heavyweight division, there was something about being kept down in the jr division. I probably shouldn't have used mistreatment as a word, but BC was at one point the us vs Japan (that is Japanese wrestling oldest story), so not literal fighting an authority figure, but surely a 'we gotta stick together to help each other' deal because gaijins don't make it to the top of NJPW.
"Kept down" due to the way New Japan treats weight limits. Omega had the same complaint about AJ when he kicked AJ out of Bullet Club. You are confusing cause and effect here. Bullet Club wasn't all gaijin because the gaijin decided to band together to make a stable to fight the natives. Bullet Club was all gaijin because Bullet Club were going to be heels and gaijin have traditionally been the heels in Japan.

cero2k wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 15:31
Naito doesn't have to lash against any authority figure. wrestling is not literal. fighting authority is fighting what the office wants you to be, fighting society telling you how to act, being outcasts, anarchy, fighting against what Big Red Machine defines as babyface.
But they've never said that. Every announcer has portrayed Naito as being unhappy with the fans for not supporting him and just being a generally disrespectful dick because he's a dick. And the rest of them are just his wacky group of friends. What have any of the others done that in any way shows that they are fighting against any sort of authority? They don't even disrespect tradition the way Naito does. I have yet to see any of them throw belts. You'd think BUSHI would take his mask off in the middle of a match as an FU to Lucha tradition, but he hasn't. If the office didn't want them to act the way they do, you'd think they would do something to stop it, but they never do. We never even see LIJ reprimanded for their constant cheating.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by cero2k » Jul 20th, '17, 10:36

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 19:17

I don't see why this is so problematic here. Jordan didn't need to be Angle's kid to get over, but I do think it will help him get over faster than even if he was just Kurt's protege. Most of us don't have proteges, but most of us do have fathers and/or sons, so this makes the relationship more relatable to the audience.
what? most of us have arms and legs too, may as well use that to relate to the audience.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 19:17
It's also not impossible that this isn't about Jason Jordan so much as it is about Kurt needing to have a long-lost son for some reason and Jordan was the guy who was both a plausible age and looked decently enough like Kurt. Maybe the ultimate plan is to do Hunter vs. Angle with control of Raw on the line, and way that Hunter gets Kurt mad enough to agree to the stip is by assaulting the long-lost son that Kurt has only recently reconnected with (think the Flair-Taker build for WM18 with Taker going after David and threatening the rest of Flair's kids when attacking Arn didn't get him the result he wanted).
that's even a worse story if they're just gonna use the young up and coming talent to put over an old timer that can't even get cleared to wrestle. There is only one way this works out and it's JJ is lying about Angle and is using him and once they bring Maury with a paternity test, everything will be fixed.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 19:17

I don't mind them doing this sort of thing once in a blue moon, and the last time we had a long-lost family member show up was the Vince/Swoggle thing
While this may be the first time in a while that they do a paternity angle, WWE constantly keeps adding little things here and there that are completely unnecessary. Rowan being a Vintner that is apparently super intelligent. Bayley never kissing a man. Katey Vick. If you're bothered by doing little stuff here and there that don't get followed up, how can you be ok with WWE adding all these anchors knowing WWE's booking track record?
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 19:17
"Kept down" due to the way New Japan treats weight limits. Omega had the same complaint about AJ when he kicked AJ out of Bullet Club. You are confusing cause and effect here. Bullet Club wasn't all gaijin because the gaijin decided to band together to make a stable to fight the natives. Bullet Club was all gaijin because Bullet Club were going to be heels and gaijin have traditionally been the heels in Japan.
But Suzuki-Gun and CHAOS had gaijins too, there was more than just we're all gaijins and thus heels. See this needs more follow up than just low blowing your stablemate because you got the better of him/her
cero2k wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 15:31
Naito doesn't have to lash against any authority figure. wrestling is not literal. fighting authority is fighting what the office wants you to be, fighting society telling you how to act, being outcasts, anarchy, fighting against what Big Red Machine defines as babyface.
cero2k wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 15:31
But they've never said that. Every announcer has portrayed Naito as being unhappy with the fans for not supporting him and just being a generally disrespectful dick because he's a dick. And the rest of them are just his wacky group of friends. What have any of the others done that in any way shows that they are fighting against any sort of authority? They don't even disrespect tradition the way Naito does. I have yet to see any of them throw belts. You'd think BUSHI would take his mask off in the middle of a match as an FU to Lucha tradition, but he hasn't. If the office didn't want them to act the way they do, you'd think they would do something to stop it, but they never do. We never even see LIJ reprimanded for their constant cheating.
it may just be me, but it's pretty obvious they're outcasts, they're going against the norm, they're not just a wacky compilation of gimmicks. i don't need anyone to tell me that to notice it. That's something that actually makes WWE and Striker's commentary so obnoxious, that they always overstate the obvious.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 22nd, '17, 21:01

cero2k wrote:
Jul 20th, '17, 10:36
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 19:17

I don't see why this is so problematic here. Jordan didn't need to be Angle's kid to get over, but I do think it will help him get over faster than even if he was just Kurt's protege. Most of us don't have proteges, but most of us do have fathers and/or sons, so this makes the relationship more relatable to the audience.
what? most of us have arms and legs too, may as well use that to relate to the audience.
Emotions are a more powerful connection. It's about empathizing or sympathizing, and not just in terms of "I know what it feels like to have my arm get twisted so I smypathize with your plight in this arm lock"
cero2k wrote:
Jul 20th, '17, 10:36
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 19:17
It's also not impossible that this isn't about Jason Jordan so much as it is about Kurt needing to have a long-lost son for some reason and Jordan was the guy who was both a plausible age and looked decently enough like Kurt. Maybe the ultimate plan is to do Hunter vs. Angle with control of Raw on the line, and way that Hunter gets Kurt mad enough to agree to the stip is by assaulting the long-lost son that Kurt has only recently reconnected with (think the Flair-Taker build for WM18 with Taker going after David and threatening the rest of Flair's kids when attacking Arn didn't get him the result he wanted).
that's even a worse story if they're just gonna use the young up and coming talent to put over an old timer that can't even get cleared to wrestle. There is only one way this works out and it's JJ is lying about Angle and is using him and once they bring Maury with a paternity test, everything will be fixed.
How about this whole thing was a scheme by Steph to get power back, and she has paid off Jordan, the P.I., the supposed mother, and the people doing the tests. Maybe they're setting Kurt up to be assaulted by Jordan, at which point, in order to have a match, he'll have to give up power or something. Or maybe they're trying to catch Kurt showing favoritism.
Yes, it's not ideal if that's what they're doing, but we see them go the non-ideal route in stories all the time. I don't get why you (and others) are so upset with this one.
cero2k wrote:
Jul 20th, '17, 10:36
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 19:17

I don't mind them doing this sort of thing once in a blue moon, and the last time we had a long-lost family member show up was the Vince/Swoggle thing
While this may be the first time in a while that they do a paternity angle, WWE constantly keeps adding little things here and there that are completely unnecessary. Rowan being a Vintner that is apparently super intelligent. Bayley never kissing a man. Katey Vick. If you're bothered by doing little stuff here and there that don't get followed up, how can you be ok with WWE adding all these anchors knowing WWE's booking track record?
Bayley not kissing boy has never been confirmed. It's something Alexa said, and Alexa is a lying heel. The internet has made big deal out of this one, not WWE.
The problem with Katie Vick (other than the necrophilia thing) was that it completely went against the already-established backstory of the Kane character. The Rowan thing, while clumsy, doesn't need follow-up. Now we know what Erick Rowan was doing with his life before Bray found him and convinced him to join his cult. It's unnecessary if you're not going to do something with it, but it's not in and of itself a problem. I don't see these things as anchors. They're not dragging things down merely by their presence (Katie Vick did but for a different reason).
cero2k wrote:
Jul 20th, '17, 10:36
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 19:17
"Kept down" due to the way New Japan treats weight limits. Omega had the same complaint about AJ when he kicked AJ out of Bullet Club. You are confusing cause and effect here. Bullet Club wasn't all gaijin because the gaijin decided to band together to make a stable to fight the natives. Bullet Club was all gaijin because Bullet Club were going to be heels and gaijin have traditionally been the heels in Japan.
But Suzuki-Gun and CHAOS had gaijins too, there was more than just we're all gaijins and thus heels. See this needs more follow up than just low blowing your stablemate because you got the better of him/her
Bullet Club did not have non-gaijin for over a year (until Yujiro joined- and aside from the brief Bone Soldier run, he has been the only non-gaijin in the group). I agree that Yujiro's reason for turning needed follow-up and didn't get it. Suzuki-Gun has had non-gaijin because they were never about that. They were just Suzuki's army.
cero2k wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 15:31
Naito doesn't have to lash against any authority figure. wrestling is not literal. fighting authority is fighting what the office wants you to be, fighting society telling you how to act, being outcasts, anarchy, fighting against what Big Red Machine defines as babyface.
cero2k wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 15:31
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 19:17
But they've never said that. Every announcer has portrayed Naito as being unhappy with the fans for not supporting him and just being a generally disrespectful dick because he's a dick. And the rest of them are just his wacky group of friends. What have any of the others done that in any way shows that they are fighting against any sort of authority? They don't even disrespect tradition the way Naito does. I have yet to see any of them throw belts. You'd think BUSHI would take his mask off in the middle of a match as an FU to Lucha tradition, but he hasn't. If the office didn't want them to act the way they do, you'd think they would do something to stop it, but they never do. We never even see LIJ reprimanded for their constant cheating.
it may just be me, but it's pretty obvious they're outcasts, they're going against the norm, they're not just a wacky compilation of gimmicks. i don't need anyone to tell me that to notice it. That's something that actually makes WWE and Striker's commentary so obnoxious, that they always overstate the obvious.
Aside from Naito throwing the title, I don't see them as being any more "going against the norm" than Taguchi, Yano, Iizuka, Marty Scull, Dalton Castle, Yujiro, or half of the other wrestlers in the world with slightly oddball gimmicks. What does Sanada do other than wear a mask to the ring? Or EVIL with his robe? Or Hiromu with his cat doll (which he picked up well after he joined LIJ). Or BUSHI at all?
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by cero2k » Jul 23rd, '17, 18:03

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 22nd, '17, 21:01
How about this whole thing was a scheme by Steph to get power back, and she has paid off Jordan, the P.I., the supposed mother, and the people doing the tests. Maybe they're setting Kurt up to be assaulted by Jordan, at which point, in order to have a match, he'll have to give up power or something. Or maybe they're trying to catch Kurt showing favoritism.
Yes, it's not ideal if that's what they're doing, but we see them go the non-ideal route in stories all the time. I don't get why you (and others) are so upset with this one.
what have we've come to that I'm questioning booking and you're coming up with What Ifs.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 19:17
Aside from Naito throwing the title, I don't see them as being any more "going against the norm" than Taguchi, Yano, Iizuka, Marty Scull, Dalton Castle, Yujiro, or half of the other wrestlers in the world with slightly oddball gimmicks. What does Sanada do other than wear a mask to the ring? Or EVIL with his robe? Or Hiromu with his cat doll (which he picked up well after he joined LIJ). Or BUSHI at all?
They're not the quintessential babyface, hugging kids and smiling and respecting everyone, but they're also not the dastardly heels like Suzuki Gun or Bullet Club. It's not that they do specific things, but they're overall aura.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 23rd, '17, 18:50

cero2k wrote:
Jul 23rd, '17, 18:03
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 22nd, '17, 21:01
How about this whole thing was a scheme by Steph to get power back, and she has paid off Jordan, the P.I., the supposed mother, and the people doing the tests. Maybe they're setting Kurt up to be assaulted by Jordan, at which point, in order to have a match, he'll have to give up power or something. Or maybe they're trying to catch Kurt showing favoritism.
Yes, it's not ideal if that's what they're doing, but we see them go the non-ideal route in stories all the time. I don't get why you (and others) are so upset with this one.
what have we've come to that I'm questioning booking and you're coming up with What Ifs.
I just don't get why this one in particular has been so offensive to people. Like I said, it's been a decade since they did this sort of thing last, so it's not a "straw that broke the camel's back" issue. I just don't get why this has gotten so much hate compared to other things.
cero2k wrote:
Jul 23rd, '17, 18:03
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 19th, '17, 19:17
Aside from Naito throwing the title, I don't see them as being any more "going against the norm" than Taguchi, Yano, Iizuka, Marty Scull, Dalton Castle, Yujiro, or half of the other wrestlers in the world with slightly oddball gimmicks. What does Sanada do other than wear a mask to the ring? Or EVIL with his robe? Or Hiromu with his cat doll (which he picked up well after he joined LIJ). Or BUSHI at all?
They're not the quintessential babyface, hugging kids and smiling and respecting everyone, but they're also not the dastardly heels like Suzuki Gun or Bullet Club. It's not that they do specific things, but they're overall aura.
Sure they're dastardly. They cheat all the time, just like Suzuki-Gun (some elements within Bullet Club- particularly Omega and the Bucks, but also Yujiro and Fale, have actually toned down their cheating a lot recently). Naito a little less so (and Hiromu when his opponent doesn't have a match), but the others certainly do.
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KILLdozer
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Re: BRM Reviews the 7/17/2017 Raw

Post by KILLdozer » Jul 24th, '17, 19:35

I think it's massively underwelming compared to what could have happened. More than anything it reminds of that aforementioned Edge /Christian/Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy thing a decade ago-too many people thought it could be something to do with Gable, so no, it's Jordan instead.
When they come, they'll come at what you love.

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