BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

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Big Red Machine
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BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 4th, '17, 02:16

Warning: BRM began watching this show in quite the bad mood due to the sh*tty announcing and frustrating booking he has run into so far while watching Supercard of Honor XI (I’m up to Martinez vs. Kaz. Everything that has come before it has been bad aside from Scurll vs. Cole, which was way back in the opener, and Lethal vs. Cody, which was the last thing I watched before heading out to go pick up my dinner, so it has been totally erased by my hatred for Delirious, Kevin Kelly, Ian Riccaboni, and Cheeseburger). This means that there will be some VERY strong reactions to the things you see tonight that might be a little extreme or out of the norm.
Side note: I did not intend the above paragraph to be a satire on WWE’s “please ignore this crowd” disclaimer even though that is, ironically, where I am up to right now, when I realized that all I had written so far was a page and a half of angry ranting even though a grand total of about eight sentences have been spoken so far and Roman’s single sentence was the only one that wasn’t vapid, so maybe I should put down a disclaimer warning people of the on-coming rants. The fact that it works as such a satire was just a happy coincidence.

Hey jerks in the back! Do you really think it’s appropriate to be holding up your big “BRRRROOOOCCOCK” sign during the designated Undertaker thank you time?! And that goes quadruple for the people who decided to chant “ROMAN SUCKS!” during it.
And speaking of…
ROMAN REIGNS COMES OUT TO OPEN THE SHOW- what’s the matter, Vince? Why don’t you mute the crowd now?
Michael Cole explains that “one of the reasons” that Roman is getting booed is because there is speculation that Taker has retired after losing to Taker. Yes, he said “one of the reasons,” so he’s probably getting quite the earful from Vince right now.
It turns out my conversation with NWK2000 on Facebook earlier today has jinxed things a bit. In the course of that conversation (about crowds hijacking shows, no less) I noted that I couldn’t remember the last time there was a chant that involved an F bomb on a WWE show. Well… after an entirely random round of “DELETE!” chants, we got a nice, hearty, “F*CK YOU, ROMAN!” chant going. Once someone figured out what was being chanted the crowd was quickly turned down.
More “DELETE!” chants. Now some “ASSHOLE!” chants, with rounds of loud boos in between. I don’t know how far into the show we are right now, but it feels like it has been ten straight minutes of just the crowd chanting things. Every time he bring the mic up close to his mouth they start to boo so Roman is doing the thing where he isn’t going to start talking if they keep booing. Someone tell him he isn’t BJ Whitmer at an ROH show where we have unlimited time to play around with. Just be a heel and talk over the boos.
Now there are “SHUT THE F*CK UP!” chants and “GO! AWAY!” chants. Roman finally starts talking, saying “this is my yard now!” which got louder boos than he was getting before, which is exactly why he shouldn’t have played along with the crowd for so long. Then he dropped the mic and left.

THE ANNOUNCERS GIVE THE STANDARD RAW AFTER MANIA DISCLAIMER- you know the one. It always starts off with “wow! What an electric atmosphere and what a raucous crowd. It’s so great! We love the passion of these WWE fans and we love how they exercise their Freedom of Speech… but everyone watching at home please ignore everything they say and everyone they boo or cheer for.”
Cole tells us that these fans here tonight are “non-traditional fans.” And once again I am forced to give WWE a nice, big “F*CK YOU!” for this. Listen up, assholes, because I’ve got a few things to say:

1. A good chunk the responsibility for this lies with YOU! The first crowd to react this way to things was the night after WrestleMania XXIX, but rather than ignore them YOU PUT THEM OVER! If you had just tried to capitalize on Fandango-ing that would be one thing but no. You put the crowd over all night, and then you went ahead and YOU GAVE THEM A F*CKING SLAMMY AWARD. Then you kept up this terrible combination encouraging this sort of thing culminating in ADVERTISING THIS WEEK’S RAW BASED ON THE CROWD’S BEHAVIOR IN A TELEVISED AD last week. If you didn’t like what they were doing, you shouldn’t have acknowledged them.

2. Quit using that idiotic “exercising their Freedom of Speech” line. It comes off as the most smarmy, disingenuous crap possible. We all know how Freedom of Speech works, so stop trying to turn this into an opportunity to get yourselves credit for being patriotic. And if you really “loved it” when your fans exercised their right to Freedom of Speech, you wouldn’t be giving this f*cking disclaimer in an attempt to retain some sort of control over the thoughts of the fans watching at home. As Lance Storm pointed out on Twitter, when Michael Cole said “non-traditional” fans, what he really meant was “non-obedient.”

3. If you’re so f*cking afraid of fans sending signals to the viewing audience that are contrary to your desired face-heel alignments, then why don’t you just make it easier on yourselves by LISTENING TO THE FANS AND GIVING THEM WHAT THEY WANT. If you don’t want to have to give disclaimers about the fans booing Roman when he is a babyface, JUST TURN HIM HEEL? (And for anyone saying that this would just lead to a roster full of the best wrestlers all being babyfaces, I’d urge you to watch EVOLVE, where you’ll see how a talented booker deals with this problem: by having guys who are nominally heels but will likely get cheered anyway not actually do anything to really cross the line over into heeldom aside from just generally being kind of dickish or sleazy, so that you don’t have fans cheering for arsonists or guys who try to seduce another man’s wife or whatever. Oh. Right. In WWE, the arsonists or guys who try to seduce married women or ruin wedding celebrations for no reason are the babyfaces.)

New Orleans is getting Mania again even though they just got one. Lucky bastards.

WWE RAW TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: The Hardy Boyz(c) vs. Luke Gallows & Karl Anderson- 6.75/10
Cole felt the need to remind us that the titles were on the line TWO MINUTES IN. And when I say he felt the need to “remind us” I don’t mean that he mentioned that fact in passing so that it would act as a reminder to anyone who may have forgotten or somehow didn’t realize it or something. He literally said “remember, guys: the tag team titles are on the line in this one.”
These Hardys are not Broken, but that doesn’t stop the fans from chanting various Broken Hardys-related things. Ah. They seem to have finally figured out that they’re not going to be getting the Broken Hardys, which has led to a chant that probably makes less sense of out context than any other in wrestling history: “FUCK THAT OWL!” (And between Paige’s old screaming gimmick and Xavier Woods’ New Day hooting - or perhaps “whooting” is a more appropriate way to say it- there is a joke there to be made for those of you who would like to make it).
The match itself was very good. The Hardys win clean.


So Rollins had to sign the Hold Harmless contract and have an unsanctioned match because no doctor would even consider clearing him to compete at WrestleMania because of his injured knee… but now, less than twenty-four hours after going through a grueling match in which Triple H focused on damaging said knee that was already in bad enough shape that he shouldn’t get cleared to compete, he has been cleared to compete? COME ON! Maybe WWE should spend a little less time coming up with verbiage with which the announcers can politely tell viewers to ignore the crowd and a little more time making sure that the stuff they put on their TV actually makes sense.

NEVILLE PROMO- decent. Then he got interrupted by Mustafa Ali who he apparently has a match against right now.

MUSTAFA ALI vs. NEVILLE- 6/10
The crowd paid absolutely no attention to this match. Instead they were batting a beach ball around and chanting “Beach Ball Mania!” F*ck them. If I’m Vince right now I call an audible and go right to a small package finish, then tell the production truck to start playing a “Best of The Undertaker” playlist. Meanwhile, for the fans live in the building, I’d send out the two greenest NXT trainees they can find backstage and tell them to do about an hour and a half of headlocks. Then, when you send out your main event segment (that Rollins & Jericho vs. Owens & Joe match), they’ll f*cking appreciate it, and they won’t do this sh*t next year.
OH DEAR G-D MICHAEL COLE IS PUTTING OVER THEIR F*CKING BULLSH*T! Do you not learn?!
Springboard Spanish Fly from Ali! That made these assholes pay attention!
Wait. No. Now they’re singing “Heeeeey! We want some beach balls!”
Neville trolls the crowd with the tease of the Red Arrow before hopping down and winning with the Rings of Saturn. I really admire these guys for keeping their cool the way they did in front of this crowd.

VINCE SHOWS UP IN A LIMO- and the crowd pops. Yes, really. They ignore the Cruiserweights to play with a f*cking beach ball, but WHEN THE GUY RESPONSIBLE FOR SHOVING THE DESPISED ROMAN REIGNS DOWN THEIR THROATS SHOWS UP, THEY CHEER HIM? You know what this crowd is? They’re marks. They think they’re being “smart” fans but they’re not. They’re marks. The problem is that they’re not marks for the wrestlers; they’re marks for themselves.

VINCE MCMAHON PROMO- terrible on multiple levels.
And now they’re chanting “Roman sucks!” You dumb sh*ts.
Vince has now come out and is THANKING THE FANS FOR BEING SO “PASSIONATE!” GAH! Yeah. Let’s encourage these assholes to keep this bullsh*t up, and encourage everyone who is watching on TV to imitate their f*cking bullsh*t.

He announces a draft for next week. IT HASN’T EVEN BEEN A F*CKING YEAR! Vince didn’t actually say “draft.” He said there would be a “Superstar Shakeup.” We would later have to sit through Cole wondering what this could possibly mean, as if he hadn’t sat through, like, ten drafts, including being drafted himself.
He also announces that Steph’s table bump has “put her out of action for some time.” How, exactly? Is she in a f*cking coma? Does she have amnesia? Because I can’t think of anything else that would prevent her from booking a wrestling show every week.
We’re getting a new GM, and it’s Teddy Long. Wait. No. Apparently not. It’s not Teddy; he just came out here so we could repeat the same f*cking joke we got for weeks on end when they brought all of the past GMs back with all of them unilaterally deciding that they would be the one to run Raw or SD.
Vince calls out the new GM, but he/she doesn’t come out the first two times for seemingly no reason. When Vince finally says “the new General Manager of Raw, Kurt Angle” Kurt finally comes out. The fans all cheer for him while also telling him he sucks. In all of my years of sitting through sh*tty episodes of Raw, I never once thought that the thing that would have me on the verge of just shutting off the show would be the f*cking crowd.

NEW DAY PROMO- Kofi and Woods are wearing what appear to be Road Warriors Halloween costumes. Corey Graves calls them “the Legion of Dumb” which is a name so brilliantly simple I’m really sad I didn’t have it in my revolving list of names for the Social Outcasts (AKA the Ministry of Dorkness AKA The Sadicalz AKA the Main Event & Superstars Mafia AKA Meh-volution AKA Four Dudes With Ineptitude AKA America’s Least Wanted AKA The Age of the Fail AKA Snore Machine AKA Suckzuki-Gun AKA Bullsh*t Club AKA Loser-os del Mal AKA Los Shat-adores AKA the Nega-Powers AKA Triple Lack of Threat AKA The Craptown Dragons AKA The Dud Stable AKA The Desperation Corporation AKA Lacey’s A-holes AKA the Second City Taints AKA Mt. Flushmore AKA Da Sh*t Squad AKA the Dungeon of Doomed AKA The Calamitous Connection AKA The Minimum Wage Outlaws AKA the Beaten-Down Clan AKA The American Fails AKA Harlem No Heat AKA Tons of F*cked AKA Draw No Money Inc. AKA the No Remorse Bore AKA the Authors of Lame AKA Team Very B.A.D. AKA The Bruderschaft des Crappiness AKA F.I.S.T. (F*cktards In Similar Tights).
Why yes. Quite a number of those were new. Thank you for noticing.

Oh dear Lord those spikes are ice cream cones.
They’re sad they didn’t get to Wrestle at WrestleMania. Well maybe they should have said something in the two months BEFORE the show?
Their promo tonight was actually funny. They make an open challenge and HOLY F*CKING SH*T IT’S THE REVIVAL! If there was ever a team that was the exact opposite of The New Day, it’s The Revival. I haven’t smiled in hours at this point, but Scott Dawson kicking over New Day’s stupid ice cream cart put the biggest smile I’ve had on my face in what feels like forever. Probably since Alexa Bliss! dismissed Nattie’s hopes for a title shot by asking her if her brain had been addled by eating catnip.

THE REVIVAL vs. THE NEW DAY (w/Kofi Kingston)- 4/10
This was too short and I didn’t think The Revival were anywhere near as dominant as they should be.

POST-MATCH SEGMENT- The Revival destroy Kofi’s ankle. We have new top heels.

KURT ANGLE, ENZO, & CASS BACKSTAGE- Kurt’s gimmick appears to be that he is oblivious to Enzo & Cass’ gimmick. That was hilarious. Enzo & Cass want to be tag champs, so Kurt books this team of guys who just lost a tag title match last night against another team of guys who just lost a tag title match last night. Hooray for earning things.

SASHA BANKS, DANA BROOKE, & BAYLEY vs. NIA JAX, CHARLOTTE FLAIR, & EMMA- 4/10
Emma is back! Or maybe this is just a special one-time thing and getting to watch one of his highest-profile student wrestle for the first time in, like a year, is WWE’s birthday present to Lance Storm.
For his unwavering support of her during her Emmalina phase, Emma gives Corey Graves a table dance. And Byron gets yelled at.
The only good part of this match was Emma’s heel antics. That double-dropkick to Nia at the end was horrific. Sasha makes Charlotte tap. Charlotte yells at both of her partners and shoves them around. Nia beats Charlotte up while Emma bails. So is Nia a babyface now, too? This really feels like we’re clearing space on the heel side for Sasha Banks.

KURT ANGLE & SAMI ZAYN BACKSTAGE- terrible.
Sami was an obnoxious motor-mouth. Kurt tells Sami that he has The Three I’s. Sami says that he is “concerned about the Superstar Shakeup.” He doesn’t want to go to Smackdown because Shane McMahon is on Smackdown and Shane seems like a nice person but he is a McMahon after all so he’s clearly untrustworthy. Sami probably uses the phrase “those people” when he talks about the McMahons.
Kurt puts Sami over but Sami is still being annoying. Jinder showed up to complain about being attacked by a fan during last night’s Andre The Giant Memorial Battle Royale. Sami is a jackass to Jinder, who got a lot closer to winning last night than Sami himself did. In the background, Kurt’s eyes are bugging out. He books them in a match. I’m pretty sure Kurt took this role to try to show his talents as a comedic actor so he could get movie roles.

SEGMENT TO SET STUFF UP FOR BROCK- Great!
Michael Cole claims that Brock vs. Goldberg went ten minutes when it didn’t even make it five. To be fair, though, Cole is only following his wife’s example (*BURN!*).
Heyman cuts a great promo to close off the Goldberg story and then to build up to Brock vs Roman. The fans don’t want Roman; they want Balor. Instead they get BRRRRAAUUUUNNNN!
Braun wants Brock (once he’s done with Roman). They have a big stare-down… but Braun backs down. The fans chant “pussy!” at him.

CHARLY CARUSO INTERVIEWS CHRIS JERICHO- meh
He talked for a while and then got jumped by Owens and Joe and put through a table.

ANGLE & ROLLINS BACKSTAGE- Jericho is injured so Kurt will have to find Rollins another partner. The fans are all chanting for Finn.

#1 CONTENDERSHIP MATCH: Cesaro & Sheamus vs. Colin Cassady & Enzo Amore- 4.5/10

SAMI ZAYN vs. JINDER MAHAL- 2.25/10
Short.

So Mustafa Ali loses clean to Neville tonight but he gets put in a #1 contednership match tomorrow? COME ON! Literally any other Cruiserweight would make more sense in this spot.

KEVIN OWENS & SAMOA JOE vs. SETH ROLLINS & FINN BALOR- 6.75/10
So was Finn really just walking around all healthy backstage and WWE didn’t have him booked on tonight’s show?
Balor pins Owens on Owens' first night as US Champion. If we're not getting Balor chasing Owens' title then this shouldn't have happened. If you don't want to beat Joe then find an extra guy to stick on each team.

This was a very meh episode of Raw brought down by perhaps the worst crowd in history.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by XIV » Apr 4th, '17, 04:18

The whole "boo who they normally cheer and cheer who they normally boo" is bullshit.

This post-WM crowd is just louder and more obnoxious about it, the boos and cheers still go in the same directions they normally do. So Lance I correct. Non-Obedient.

I really didn't like how Sami Zayn came across. Disappointing really (unless it's heading towards some heel turn, which it probably isn't).

I actually think the Roman Reigns thing was good. Booking the show they would have known something like this would occur, and having him soak up the abuse and then say that simple sentence was good.

I'm also taking that as acceptance that Roman is now a heel, right? Right?

Nahhh. He'll still be booked babyface I'm sure.

Neville vs Mustafa Ali was a good solid match and I was impressed, but the crowd did really ruin it.

I'm hoping Emma is here to stay, she has a good fire and intensity and is a different kind of heel that the Raw women's division would be good to have and I was excited for a moment when Charlotte was pushing Emma that they were gonna have Emma and Nia Jax in the classic HBK/Diesel roles, but no... apparently not.

Good debut for Revival, but if the match would have been 3 or 4 more minutes longer with a bit more Revival dominance it would have really cemented them as top heels.

Vince McMahon's appearance was pointless and annoying and boy is he starting to look like Vince Senior at this point.


Oh and as one final point, any reaction is better than no reaction, so if they really want Roman to "go away"... when his music hits, deadpan it. Fall completely silent, let there be crickets heard. Fans should turn around and face away from the ring in silent protest. That would work stronger than any booing...

Just saying.

Not saying I dislike Roman, because I don't. But that's how a "smart" fan group would deal with Roman.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 4th, '17, 09:20

XIV wrote:The whole "boo who they normally cheer and cheer who they normally boo" is bullshit.
Right. I mean... who got cheered that would normally be booed or vice versa? No one. The only time this really ever happened on this show was the Randy vs. Sheamus match that kicked this whole thing off
This post-WM crowd is just louder and more obnoxious about it, the boos and cheers still go in the same directions they normally do. So Lance I correct. Non-Obedient.

I really didn't like how Sami Zayn came across. Disappointing really (unless it's heading towards some heel turn, which it probably isn't).
he came across like a suck-up and, to use not quite the right word, and anti-McMahon racist (clanist? What's the word for bigotry against a specific family? You know what, let's go with "McMahonophobe."
I actually think the Roman Reigns thing was good. Booking the show they would have known something like this would occur, and having him soak up the abuse and then say that simple sentence was good.
Plus they had him only on this one necessary segment so as not to avoid antagonizing the crowd any more than necessary.

I'm also taking that as acceptance that Roman is now a heel, right? Right?

Nahhh. He'll still be booked babyface I'm sure.

Neville vs Mustafa Ali was a good solid match and I was impressed, but the crowd did really ruin it.

I'm hoping Emma is here to stay, she has a good fire and intensity and is a different kind of heel that the Raw women's division would be good to have and I was excited for a moment when Charlotte was pushing Emma that they were gonna have Emma and Nia Jax in the classic HBK/Diesel roles, but no... apparently not.
H-B-Emma & She-sel?

Good debut for Revival, but if the match would have been 3 or 4 more minutes longer with a bit more Revival dominance it would have really cemented them as top heels.
My thoughts exactly. I'm glad they made the right call and put them on Raw. They could have great matches with the Hardys due to the Hardys (especially Jeff's) natural babyface-ishness, (both style and charisma), and with New Day, too (and hopefully tonight's angle leads us to the start of a more serious New Day).
V

Oh and as one final point, any reaction is better than no reaction, so if they really want Roman to "go away"... when his music hits, deadpan it. Fall completely silent, let there be crickets heard. Fans should turn around and face away from the ring in silent protest. That would work stronger than any booing...
All get up and go to the bathroom or concessions stand or something

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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by Serujuunin » Apr 4th, '17, 10:28

Big Red Machine wrote:So Rollins had to sign the Hold Harmless contract and have an unsanctioned match because no doctor would even consider clearing him to compete at WrestleMania because of his injured knee… but now, less than twenty-four hours after going through a grueling match in which Triple H focused on damaging said knee that was already in bad enough shape that he shouldn’t get cleared to compete, he has been cleared to compete?

I heard Cole say as Rollins made his entrance that he was cleared to compete as a result of his performance at Mania.

They should have said that as the graphic for the match came up the first time, but at least they said it.

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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 4th, '17, 10:32

Serujuunin wrote:
Big Red Machine wrote:So Rollins had to sign the Hold Harmless contract and have an unsanctioned match because no doctor would even consider clearing him to compete at WrestleMania because of his injured knee… but now, less than twenty-four hours after going through a grueling match in which Triple H focused on damaging said knee that was already in bad enough shape that he shouldn’t get cleared to compete, he has been cleared to compete?

I heard Cole say as Rollins made his entrance that he was cleared to compete as a result of his performance at Mania.

They should have said that as the graphic for the match came up the first time, but at least they said it.

Which kind of makes their doctors look like idiots, right? They said there was no way Seth would be able to compete, but instead Seth was able to withstand all of that punishment and be fine the next night?
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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by cero2k » Apr 4th, '17, 10:44

I was starting to write comments per paragraph, but it seems it's the overall theme of the review anyway.

I don't like the post-WM crowd, I hate it, it's like an extended Full Sail crowd trying to be PWG or PROGRESS; however, I don't really blame them for anything tonight. On one side, as you mention it, it's WWE's fault to making those fans feel important, part of the show, constantly showing them and referencing them, but if you also know that's the crowd you're getting, then work them or to them. Give them things that fans want to see EVEN if they're outside the storylines. There are matches they could give the crowd and they would go crazy for, give them fucking Dillinger vs Zayn in a battle of chants instead of fucking 'roid-free' Jinder Mahal. Give them Rusev and turn him into a god even if he can't wrestle. I like Ali, but unleash Metallik or Tozawa on Neville and those guys could steal the show. Wrestlers should know how to work that heat to themselves, either like Goldberg telling them to shut the fuck up, like Roman not saying anything and basking in the heel heat, or imagine Neville asking for the ball and popping it, or like when he faked the Red Arrow, make it obvious that he passed because he was pissed at the fans for the ball, not just normally pissed. I don't think we should shit on the fans for chanting 'Roman Sucks' at Vince or playing with a beach ball, both things I think are perfectly understandable, they both just retired The freaking Undertaker to Roman Reigns.

If we wanna crap on some fans, we can choose those that chanted "You suck Cena" "You suck Bryan", or those chanting Paige stuff, hell, even those chanting for CM Punk 4 yrs later. But nothing last night was exactly out of line IMO.

Now, on to the show.

About the Revival, I liked their debut, I didn't mind that the match was back and forward, especially since the New Day in kayfabe are a credible threat. I also don't think Revival will stay in RAW past the 'shake up'

I hated how they intro Angle as the GM, you could tell McMahon lost the control of the crowd and the whole thing was super hasted. I like that Angle will be a bit more 'old school' about some stuff, but it seems he'll do a lot of comedy too. That thing about Angle not knowing what Enzo and Cass are about, do you honestly believe Angle could give a shit about watching RAW before tonight?

That Lesnar thing, I fear they just started a feud that will be a whole year in the making, it's gonna be a tough year, if they're not doing Lesnar vs Reigns at Summerslam, I think they should either change the title ASAP or fuck it and give Lesnar a year long reign.

I think Emma is here to stay, I think she's Bayley's program for Payback, which sucks since she'll likely just be a one time feud. Maybe she should go challenge Naomi after the shake up and bring Carmella and some other heel in exchange to RAW.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by XIV » Apr 4th, '17, 11:14

Big Red Machine wrote:
XIV wrote:The whole "boo who they normally cheer and cheer who they normally boo" is bullshit.
Right. I mean... who got cheered that would normally be booed or vice versa? No one. The only time this really ever happened on this show was the Randy vs. Sheamus match that kicked this whole thing off
This post-WM crowd is just louder and more obnoxious about it, the boos and cheers still go in the same directions they normally do. So Lance I correct. Non-Obedient.

I really didn't like how Sami Zayn came across. Disappointing really (unless it's heading towards some heel turn, which it probably isn't).
he came across like a suck-up and, to use not quite the right word, and anti-McMahon racist (clanist? What's the word for bigotry against a specific family? You know what, let's go with "McMahonophobe."
I actually think the Roman Reigns thing was good. Booking the show they would have known something like this would occur, and having him soak up the abuse and then say that simple sentence was good.
Plus they had him only on this one necessary segment so as not to avoid antagonizing the crowd any more than necessary.

I'm also taking that as acceptance that Roman is now a heel, right? Right?

Nahhh. He'll still be booked babyface I'm sure.

Neville vs Mustafa Ali was a good solid match and I was impressed, but the crowd did really ruin it.

I'm hoping Emma is here to stay, she has a good fire and intensity and is a different kind of heel that the Raw women's division would be good to have and I was excited for a moment when Charlotte was pushing Emma that they were gonna have Emma and Nia Jax in the classic HBK/Diesel roles, but no... apparently not.
H-B-Emma & She-sel?

Good debut for Revival, but if the match would have been 3 or 4 more minutes longer with a bit more Revival dominance it would have really cemented them as top heels.
My thoughts exactly. I'm glad they made the right call and put them on Raw. They could have great matches with the Hardys due to the Hardys (especially Jeff's) natural babyface-ishness, (both style and charisma), and with New Day, too (and hopefully tonight's angle leads us to the start of a more serious New Day).
V

Oh and as one final point, any reaction is better than no reaction, so if they really want Roman to "go away"... when his music hits, deadpan it. Fall completely silent, let there be crickets heard. Fans should turn around and face away from the ring in silent protest. That would work stronger than any booing...
All get up and go to the bathroom or concessions stand or something



"HBEmma and She-sel" hahahahahahahahahahaha!!

But yeah, I think we're basically in agreement at how this show went down.

After Revival have feuded with The New Day for a bit, they should aim for The Hardy's putting over Revival at Summerslam in a rivalry that would be incredible. Revival come at the Hardy's with the "We hate you for popularising and making tag team wrestling into a flippy spot fest". It books itself. With Dash and Dawson eventually going over.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 4th, '17, 15:01

cero2k wrote:I was starting to write comments per paragraph, but it seems it's the overall theme of the review anyway.

I don't like the post-WM crowd, I hate it, it's like an extended Full Sail crowd trying to be PWG or PROGRESS; however, I don't really blame them for anything tonight. On one side, as you mention it, it's WWE's fault to making those fans feel important, part of the show, constantly showing them and referencing them, but if you also know that's the crowd you're getting, then work them or to them. Give them things that fans want to see EVEN if they're outside the storylines. There are matches they could give the crowd and they would go crazy for, give them fucking Dillinger vs Zayn in a battle of chants instead of fucking 'roid-free' Jinder Mahal. Give them Rusev and turn him into a god even if he can't wrestle. I like Ali, but unleash Metallik or Tozawa on Neville and those guys could steal the show. Wrestlers should know how to work that heat to themselves, either like Goldberg telling them to shut the fuck up, like Roman not saying anything and basking in the heel heat, or imagine Neville asking for the ball and popping it, or like when he faked the Red Arrow, make it obvious that he passed because he was pissed at the fans for the ball, not just normally pissed. I don't think we should shit on the fans for chanting 'Roman Sucks' at Vince or playing with a beach ball, both things I think are perfectly understandable, they both just retired The freaking Undertaker to Roman Reigns.

This one is mostly on WWE, but don't underestimate the impact that Dave putting over PWG's crowds has had on the declining quality of wrestling crowds nowadays. The PWG crowd are the ones that took "cheering the heels" to the next level by taking away the ability of a heel to get crowd heat by teasing big moves but not hitting them (think the Bucks' cartwheels into backrake spot or Cole's chinlock), and Dave putting them over this amazing crowd encouraged smart fans to do this because there are an unfortunate number of people out there who seem to think that whatever Dave says is the "right" way for people to act (both in terms of fan reactions or what wrestlers do in the ring) so they copied it. I'm sure we've had this discussion before, but chanting "sh*tty little boots!" at Roddy is stupid. That's not heel heat. That's a crowd doing sh*t because it's "fun." It's like if the ROH crowd had thrown toilet paper at Jimmy Rave but didn't put any real effort into booing him during his matches. Do you know who the most over heel in wrestling in 2015 and 2016 was? It wasn't Roderick Strong or Adam Cole or Tetsuya Naito or whoever: It was BJ Whitmer.

Take that fact, then combine the fact that WWE (and TNA) have spent so long pushing comedy that I'd bet a large chunk of people who became wrestling fans over the past decade or so expect their wrestling to be funny, so when promotions like ROH grow to reach these fans and/or these fans try to seek places like ROH out, we've got a crowd that thinks wrestling is about comedy and not about wrestling and telling stories, and so you get Dalton Castle and Cheeseburger and James Ellsworth being focused on without actually doing anything and the Young Bucks ripping off the year 1998 and being absurd during matches is what starts to get over instead of actual wrestling with actual storylines and stuff, and everything is invaded by this pathetic quirkiness where fans will just cheer for anything weird or wacky no matter how dumb it is.

My problem isn't with fans chanting "ROMAN SUCKS!" at Vince. My problem is with a crowd that just booed the living sh*t out of Roman because they don't want him to be the top guy all popping huge for the very man who is pushing Roman down their throats... and then going back to chanting "ROMAN SUCKS!"

cero2k wrote:If we wanna crap on some fans, we can choose those that chanted "You suck Cena" "You suck Bryan", or those chanting Paige stuff, hell, even those chanting for CM Punk 4 yrs later. But nothing last night was exactly out of line IMO.

Beach Ball Mania. That was WORSE than the "you suck Cena" etc. crowd. Terrible as that was, at least it had something to do with the wrestlers in the ring. They were watching the match. Tonight's crowd came to the building intending to distract themselves and play with a f*cking beach ball during a wrestling match and then they but themselves over for it. The "You Suck Cena" chant was scummy wrestling fans being scummy wrestling fans, but at least they were being wrestling fans. This were people who were out to get themselves over and no one else, and were actively disrespecting not just the wrestlers and the match and the promotion, but the whole institution of pro wrestling.

cero2k wrote:Now, on to the show.

About the Revival, I liked their debut, I didn't mind that the match was back and forward, especially since the New Day in kayfabe are a credible threat. I also don't think Revival will stay in RAW past the 'shake up'
What is there for them to do on Smackdown? Feud with American Alpha? Seen that already. It's Gallows & Anderson who need to go to Smackdown.

I hated how they intro Angle as the GM, you could tell McMahon lost the control of the crowd and the whole thing was super hasted. I like that Angle will be a bit more 'old school' about some stuff, but it seems he'll do a lot of comedy too. That thing about Angle not knowing what Enzo and Cass are about, do you honestly believe Angle could give a shit about watching RAW before tonight?
Doing comedy is his main goal here. It explains his Hall of Fame speech and all of the videos being so comedy-focused. I'm certain he's looking for acting gigs.

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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by cero2k » Apr 4th, '17, 16:48

Big Red Machine wrote:This one is mostly on WWE, but don't underestimate the impact that Dave putting over PWG's crowds has had on the declining quality of wrestling crowds nowadays. The PWG crowd are the ones that took "cheering the heels" to the next level by taking away the ability of a heel to get crowd heat by teasing big moves but not hitting them (think the Bucks' cartwheels into backrake spot or Cole's chinlock), and Dave putting them over this amazing crowd encouraged smart fans to do this because there are an unfortunate number of people out there who seem to think that whatever Dave says is the "right" way for people to act (both in terms of fan reactions or what wrestlers do in the ring) so they copied it. I'm sure we've had this discussion before, but chanting "sh*tty little boots!" at Roddy is stupid. That's not heel heat. That's a crowd doing sh*t because it's "fun." It's like if the ROH crowd had thrown toilet paper at Jimmy Rave but didn't put any real effort into booing him during his matches. Do you know who the most over heel in wrestling in 2015 and 2016 was? It wasn't Roderick Strong or Adam Cole or Tetsuya Naito or whoever: It was BJ Whitmer.
It's not just PWG, it's fans wanting to imitate anything that is cool some other places, they've been chanting the same UK tunes, copying NXT, and dancing like fandango for the last 3 yrs. The 'cheering the heels' is not bad if you can plan for it, 'cheering for heels' eventually leads to 50/50 chanting and that is what makes a crowd actually hot and makes all your wrestlers look legit. Cheering the faces and booing the heels is such an outdated mentality, why sell only half of the merch if you can sell all of it? Mexico figured it out decades ago, NJPW and the indies did some years back, WWE is the only one that still gets pissed that fans don't follow a script that doesn't exist, being a bad guy is cool sometimes. The Bucks in PWG are the perfect example that you can have fans love you and hate you at the same time, you ask those fans about the Bucks and some hate their guts, they respect them, but the 'fuck the young bucks' chants are legit. Don't confuse 'we kayfabe hate you' heat with 'seriously go away' heat

Chants like 'shitty little boots' are not stupid at all, they're no different from 'ROOOOOOOODY' or 'Cena Sucks'. Chants are meant to communicate with the wrestlers, you chant 'Best in the world' because you wanted the face wrestler to know that he/she had your support and he/she would find the strength to fight, you chant 'you're gonna get your fucking head kicked in' or 'joe's gonna kill you' because the whole purpose was to get in the heel's head and mess them up, to show they don't have your support. If i'm wrestling and everyone tells me I have little shitty boots or I can't wrestle, i'm gonna feel sad and lose my confidence.


Take that fact, then combine the fact that WWE (and TNA) have spent so long pushing comedy that I'd bet a large chunk of people who became wrestling fans over the past decade or so expect their wrestling to be funny, so when promotions like ROH grow to reach these fans and/or these fans try to seek places like ROH out, we've got a crowd that thinks wrestling is about comedy and not about wrestling and telling stories, and so you get Dalton Castle and Cheeseburger and James Ellsworth being focused on without actually doing anything and the Young Bucks ripping off the year 1998 and being absurd during matches is what starts to get over instead of actual wrestling with actual storylines and stuff, and everything is invaded by this pathetic quirkiness where fans will just cheer for anything weird or wacky no matter how dumb it is.
every promotion has their thing and I think it's healthy for the promotion to have a mix of both drama and comedy, and there's no reason why every now and then the comedy wrestler can get into serious programs or why the serious wrestler can't be funny at times. The Ellsworth/Styles/Ambrose story was great story telling and great in-ring work, and it had serious hints among the comedy, only problem is that they never finished it. Dalton Castle is not a bad character to push, it's just ROH's booking that sucks, but he could had been another homicide/cabana for example. PWG took Chuck Taylor of all people and got him in a winning streak turned into blood feud with the LDRS; i'm calling it, LDRS vs Best Friends will end in a Guerrilla Warfare come the anniversary show. I'm not defending WWE or Impact or ROH because both their comedy and serious stuff tends to suck, but going all serious workrate/story can be as off putting as nonsensical comedy all around.

My problem isn't with fans chanting "ROMAN SUCKS!" at Vince. My problem is with a crowd that just booed the living sh*t out of Roman because they don't want him to be the top guy all popping huge for the very man who is pushing Roman down their throats... and then going back to chanting "ROMAN SUCKS!"
the reason they popped for McMahon is the same reason they shit on Roman, they're 'smarks', they don't hate Vince, they just don't agree with his plans for Roman and you can be happy to see the man but still tell him how you feel about his little project. There's also different reasons why you pop sometimes, I'd pop if Vince shows up because that means something big is happening, but then remember to shit on Reigns. Or look at Enzo and Cass, they pop for the entrance and then completely die.

Beach Ball Mania. That was WORSE than the "you suck Cena" etc. crowd. Terrible as that was, at least it had something to do with the wrestlers in the ring. They were watching the match. Tonight's crowd came to the building intending to distract themselves and play with a f*cking beach ball during a wrestling match and then they but themselves over for it. The "You Suck Cena" chant was scummy wrestling fans being scummy wrestling fans, but at least they were being wrestling fans. This were people who were out to get themselves over and no one else, and were actively disrespecting not just the wrestlers and the match and the promotion, but the whole institution of pro wrestling.
ok, so they didn't pay attention to a match, again, instead of booking fucking Mustafa Ali, give me something i really wanna see. Or deal with it so it gets heat for the heel, or a pop for the face. It's honestly not disrespectful, it's like a beach ball in a concert, or being on your phone during a match, or going for a snack break. It's a wrestling show, not a conference. They're not chanting boring or chanting at JBL and Michael Cole, they were just distracted by a shiny bouncing thing. it's not a fan's job to get entertained, as big of attention whores they can be, WWE should have a PhD on capturing fan's attention.



cero2k wrote:Now, on to the show.

About the Revival, I liked their debut, I didn't mind that the match was back and forward, especially since the New Day in kayfabe are a credible threat. I also don't think Revival will stay in RAW past the 'shake up'
What is there for them to do on Smackdown? Feud with American Alpha? Seen that already. It's Gallows & Anderson who need to go to Smackdown.
problem is that with the Hardys, Cesaro/Sheamus getting some sort of push, and Enzo/Cass, Revival may not get a good push for a while. If they go to Smackdown, they can run a program with AA, which main roster fans haven't seen, and easily build the division around them. They may stay in RAW and feud with the New Day for all we know, but i'm gonna be honest, i rather re-watch the whole AA vs Revival feud and not Revival vs New Day comedy.

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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 4th, '17, 18:18

cero2k wrote:
Big Red Machine wrote:This one is mostly on WWE, but don't underestimate the impact that Dave putting over PWG's crowds has had on the declining quality of wrestling crowds nowadays. The PWG crowd are the ones that took "cheering the heels" to the next level by taking away the ability of a heel to get crowd heat by teasing big moves but not hitting them (think the Bucks' cartwheels into backrake spot or Cole's chinlock), and Dave putting them over this amazing crowd encouraged smart fans to do this because there are an unfortunate number of people out there who seem to think that whatever Dave says is the "right" way for people to act (both in terms of fan reactions or what wrestlers do in the ring) so they copied it. I'm sure we've had this discussion before, but chanting "sh*tty little boots!" at Roddy is stupid. That's not heel heat. That's a crowd doing sh*t because it's "fun." It's like if the ROH crowd had thrown toilet paper at Jimmy Rave but didn't put any real effort into booing him during his matches. Do you know who the most over heel in wrestling in 2015 and 2016 was? It wasn't Roderick Strong or Adam Cole or Tetsuya Naito or whoever: It was BJ Whitmer.
It's not just PWG, it's fans wanting to imitate anything that is cool some other places, they've been chanting the same UK tunes, copying NXT, and dancing like fandango for the last 3 yrs. The 'cheering the heels' is not bad if you can plan for it, 'cheering for heels' eventually leads to 50/50 chanting and that is what makes a crowd actually hot and makes all your wrestlers look legit. Cheering the faces and booing the heels is such an outdated mentality, why sell only half of the merch if you can sell all of it? Mexico figured it out decades ago, NJPW and the indies did some years back, WWE is the only one that still gets pissed that fans don't follow a script that doesn't exist, being a bad guy is cool sometimes. The Bucks in PWG are the perfect example that you can have fans love you and hate you at the same time, you ask those fans about the Bucks and some hate their guts, they respect them, but the 'fuck the young bucks' chants are legit. Don't confuse 'we kayfabe hate you' heat with 'seriously go away' heat
But people started paying attention to it in PWG because Dave put it over so big (and he does do the same with the UK singing, most of which annoys me when it happens during matches because it doesn't have the right level of intensity needed, so it feels like the fans aren't taking things as seriously as they should be based on the way the wrestlers are reacting in the ring). I harp on PWG because the culture of PWG has always been off-beat and comedic (completely by design). Dave putting that over so hard and then people pretending he's anything more than just a dude with an opinion (who often holds double-standards no less, about crowds as well as matches) is what caused it to export. That is why the cool thing to do became goofy PWG-esque chants rather than "F*CK YOU, ARIES!" or whatever.
No, cheering the heels isn't bad if it's just the usual "LET'S GO X!" It becomes a problem when you do what they did in PWG (which then spilled over to everywhere else) and cheer every last thing they do because that takes away their ability to get any heat, and if they can't get heat by being heels then you shouldn't book them as heels. Being a bad guy is cool sometimes, but the problem comes when guys like Hero or Steen or Cole or the Bucks reach the point where they could set a barrel full of live kittens on fire in the middle of the ring and everyone would cheer.
A lot of indies haven't figured it out. Gabe figured it out by rarely having his heels do anything heelish other than be dicks or things that are guaranteed to get boos like backing down from a fight. The only guys Gabe as booked as real, hard heels recently have Ethan Page and the P.A.B. Even with Galloway's group Gabe made sure that a reasonable person could clearly see things from their point of view and thus it would make kayfabe sense that some in the crowd might sympathize with them. Quack has figured it out by creating a culture where kayfabe is strictly adhered to among the fans during the show. No one else that I've seen has done so on a consistent basis. PWG certainly hasn't, and ROH is even worse than PWG because they went out of their way to turn the Young Bucks heels despite knowing what sort of reaction they would get.
Yes, WWE are the only ones that get pissed when fans don't follow the script (though I assume Quack would, too), but it's also a bad idea to set a script that you know from the beginning that fans won't follow?

The Buck in particular are a separate issue where they have taken their sh*t to such unnecessary extremes to the point that they have created a third group that has go-away heat towards them for doing sh*t that they would be no less over if they stopped doing. The stupid, annoying "comedy" sh*t. And maybe the fans who cheer it really do find it that sort of thing funny even after seeing it a million times and I just don't understand their sense of humor, but more often than not I get the sense that they're just cheering it because it's a Young Bucks spot and they cheer everything the Bucks do.




Chants like 'shitty little boots' are not stupid at all, they're no different from 'ROOOOOOOODY' or 'Cena Sucks'. Chants are meant to communicate with the wrestlers, you chant 'Best in the world' because you wanted the face wrestler to know that he/she had your support and he/she would find the strength to fight, you chant 'you're gonna get your fucking head kicked in' or 'joe's gonna kill you' because the whole purpose was to get in the heel's head and mess them up, to show they don't have your support. If i'm wrestling and everyone tells me I have little shitty boots or I can't wrestle, i'm gonna feel sad and lose my confidence.

They're much different. "Sh*tty little boots" comes across like fans that have found a fun thing to chant. "Cena sucks" tells Cena that you think he sucks. There is a lot more heat in "CENA SUCKS!" than there is in "sh*tty little boots."


Take that fact, then combine the fact that WWE (and TNA) have spent so long pushing comedy that I'd bet a large chunk of people who became wrestling fans over the past decade or so expect their wrestling to be funny, so when promotions like ROH grow to reach these fans and/or these fans try to seek places like ROH out, we've got a crowd that thinks wrestling is about comedy and not about wrestling and telling stories, and so you get Dalton Castle and Cheeseburger and James Ellsworth being focused on without actually doing anything and the Young Bucks ripping off the year 1998 and being absurd during matches is what starts to get over instead of actual wrestling with actual storylines and stuff, and everything is invaded by this pathetic quirkiness where fans will just cheer for anything weird or wacky no matter how dumb it is.
every promotion has their thing and I think it's healthy for the promotion to have a mix of both drama and comedy, and there's no reason why every now and then the comedy wrestler can get into serious programs or why the serious wrestler can't be funny at times. The Ellsworth/Styles/Ambrose story was great story telling and great in-ring work, and it had serious hints among the comedy, only problem is that they never finished it. Dalton Castle is not a bad character to push, it's just ROH's booking that sucks, but he could had been another homicide/cabana for example. PWG took Chuck Taylor of all people and got him in a winning streak turned into blood feud with the LDRS; i'm calling it, LDRS vs Best Friends will end in a Guerrilla Warfare come the anniversary show. I'm not defending WWE or Impact or ROH because both their comedy and serious stuff tends to suck, but going all serious workrate/story can be as off putting as nonsensical comedy all around.
I'm not saying that there can't be both comedy and serious stuff. The problem comes when the comedy is inserted into serious situations. Don't do stupid comedy sh*t in a title match or a grudge match or even in the middle of a match that isn't a comedy match. There is a reason we have guys like Colt Cabana and Kikutaro and Chuck Taylor and Santino Marella who specialize in "comedy wrestling." Comedy wrestling is it's own genre that can't be blended into serious matches the way you can do a Lucha Libre spot in an otherwise entirely strong-style match. I'm fine with having comedy wrestlers doing comedy matches, and even shifting comedy wrestlers into serious roles... but you can't insert comedy into situations that are supposed to be serious. That's what made the Homicide vs. Cabana feud work. Cabana totally abandoned his comedy to show the seriousness of the situation. The Chuck Taylor thing worked because the general idea was taken totally seriously. Chuck was getting a tile shot. For that time he wasn't portrayed as Chuck Taylor, Comedy Wrestler. He was Chuck Taylor, the lovable underdog who never wins but was now on a winning streak and getting a shot at the title.

I'm no saying "don't be funny." I'm saying don't mix the funny into the serious, which is what has been the trend around the indies for a few years now.

The AJ/Dean/Ellsworth had terrible storytelling. Ellsworth didn't deserve sh*t because he only ever won because Dean was being a huge asshole- although in WWE's mind he wasn't being an asshole, he was being funny because they were trying to write comedy. We had one babyface being an asshole while the other babyface was a totally undeserving champion.

I agree that most of the problem with Dalton is the booking, but the gimmick does have its issues.
1. He does often randomly include comedy spots in serious situations (like the spot where the Boys start to obey someone else)
2. He does the same spots all of the time, so you'd think after two or three matches his opponents would be used to it and it wouldn't throw them off anymore
3. Some of his spots do things like put himself in indefensible situations or involve him just stopping hurting the opponent specifically to do something weird.

My real issue, though, is with the fans who just go gaga for Dalton doing these same exact things all of the time. Most of Dalton Castle's overness is because he is odd and goofy, not because of his wrestling skill because he has rarely gotten to show said skill off in ROH (and was over well before he had the chance)



My problem isn't with fans chanting "ROMAN SUCKS!" at Vince. My problem is with a crowd that just booed the living sh*t out of Roman because they don't want him to be the top guy all popping huge for the very man who is pushing Roman down their throats... and then going back to chanting "ROMAN SUCKS!"
the reason they popped for McMahon is the same reason they shit on Roman, they're 'smarks', they don't hate Vince, they just don't agree with his plans for Roman and you can be happy to see the man but still tell him how you feel about his little project. There's also different reasons why you pop sometimes, I'd pop if Vince shows up because that means something big is happening, but then remember to shit on Reigns. Or look at Enzo and Cass, they pop for the entrance and then completely die.
Roman feels much different. Roman is more than Vince's "little pet project." The fans' push back against Roman has been going on for years now, and in that time the quality of the product has dropped. I'm not blaming Roman for that (although the time and energy wasted scheming up ways to get the fans to like him do have their opportunity cost). The product hasn't been that good recently. People have been crapping all over the booking for two years now. We've had the Divas Revolution, the ridiculous botching of Bayley, Steph and Foley (both together and separately, the various Nikki Bella feuds, the various terrible Bray Wyatt feuds, the various backwards-ass feuds including Rusev & Lana, Orton-Wyatt, the various Wyatts failing on their own, the current Ziggler abomination, the atrocious use of Del Rio, the lazy crap that has been 90% of the Smackdown women's division booking, the last eight months of New Day's title run, the destruction of Gallows & Anderson... do I need to go on. The product has, on the whole, been very bad a lot more of than it has been even moderately good. Shouldn't we let Vince know? If there is anyone in wrestling right now who deserves a "PLEASE RETIRE!" chant, it's Vince.

Beach Ball Mania. That was WORSE than the "you suck Cena" etc. crowd. Terrible as that was, at least it had something to do with the wrestlers in the ring. They were watching the match. Tonight's crowd came to the building intending to distract themselves and play with a f*cking beach ball during a wrestling match and then they but themselves over for it. The "You Suck Cena" chant was scummy wrestling fans being scummy wrestling fans, but at least they were being wrestling fans. This were people who were out to get themselves over and no one else, and were actively disrespecting not just the wrestlers and the match and the promotion, but the whole institution of pro wrestling.
ok, so they didn't pay attention to a match, again, instead of booking fucking Mustafa Ali, give me something i really wanna see. Or deal with it so it gets heat for the heel, or a pop for the face. It's honestly not disrespectful, it's like a beach ball in a concert, or being on your phone during a match, or going for a snack break. It's a wrestling show, not a conference. They're not chanting boring or chanting at JBL and Michael Cole, they were just distracted by a shiny bouncing thing. it's not a fan's job to get entertained, as big of attention whores they can be, WWE should have a PhD on capturing fan's attention.
What's wrong with Mustafa Ali? He's a fine talk and an exciting high-flyer. If your attitude is "don't give me this new guy, give me someone I already know I like" then no one will get over.
And the difference between the beach ball and being on your phone is that one is an impulsive thing you do because you're not currently being entertained enough, while the other is something that premeditated. They didn't find that beach ball on the floor. They brought it with them with the intent to f*ck around with it during the show.
Oh. And nobody starts an "I'M ON MY PHONE!" chant.




cero2k wrote:Now, on to the show.

About the Revival, I liked their debut, I didn't mind that the match was back and forward, especially since the New Day in kayfabe are a credible threat. I also don't think Revival will stay in RAW past the 'shake up'
What is there for them to do on Smackdown? Feud with American Alpha? Seen that already. It's Gallows & Anderson who need to go to Smackdown.
problem is that with the Hardys, Cesaro/Sheamus getting some sort of push, and Enzo/Cass, Revival may not get a good push for a while. If they go to Smackdown, they can run a program with AA, which main roster fans haven't seen, and easily build the division around them. They may stay in RAW and feud with the New Day for all we know, but i'm gonna be honest, i rather re-watch the whole AA vs Revival feud and not Revival vs New Day comedy.
The Hardys just beat Gallows & Anderson. Revival are the only heels left. I'd be shocked if they don't win the titles from the Hardys by Summer Slam.

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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by cero2k » Apr 5th, '17, 14:28

Big Red Machine wrote:No, cheering the heels isn't bad if it's just the usual "LET'S GO X!" It becomes a problem when you do what they did in PWG (which then spilled over to everywhere else) and cheer every last thing they do because that takes away their ability to get any heat, and if they can't get heat by being heels then you shouldn't book them as heels. Being a bad guy is cool sometimes, but the problem comes when guys like Hero or Steen or Cole or the Bucks reach the point where they could set a barrel full of live kittens on fire in the middle of the ring and everyone would cheer.
A lot of indies haven't figured it out. Gabe figured it out by rarely having his heels do anything heelish other than be dicks or things that are guaranteed to get boos like backing down from a fight. The only guys Gabe as booked as real, hard heels recently have Ethan Page and the P.A.B. Even with Galloway's group Gabe made sure that a reasonable person could clearly see things from their point of view and thus it would make kayfabe sense that some in the crowd might sympathize with them. Quack has figured it out by creating a culture where kayfabe is strictly adhered to among the fans during the show. No one else that I've seen has done so on a consistent basis. PWG certainly hasn't, and ROH is even worse than PWG because they went out of their way to turn the Young Bucks heels despite knowing what sort of reaction they would get.
Yes, WWE are the only ones that get pissed when fans don't follow the script (though I assume Quack would, too), but it's also a bad idea to set a script that you know from the beginning that fans won't follow?

The Buck in particular are a separate issue where they have taken their sh*t to such unnecessary extremes to the point that they have created a third group that has go-away heat towards them for doing sh*t that they would be no less over if they stopped doing. The stupid, annoying "comedy" sh*t. And maybe the fans who cheer it really do find it that sort of thing funny even after seeing it a million times and I just don't understand their sense of humor, but more often than not I get the sense that they're just cheering it because it's a Young Bucks spot and they cheer everything the Bucks do.

so two things here, (1) so if wrestling fans/chants have evolved, then wrestling needs to evolve too (no pun intende), that's what that 'getting it' means. If you took away a method to get heel, you find other ways to do it, wrestling and storytelling should evolve on a daily basis as much as Cornette hates it. You show a way that Gabe did it, that is just one way. PWG most definitely figured it out by moving away as much as possible from the typical face/heel dynamic, and when someone goes heel, they definitely go heel like Roddy did, was he still getting some pro-roddy chants? of course, he's an amazing wrestler, and some of us fans can identify with heels. It's perfect that wrestlers get both type of chants now a days.

(2) "I just don't understand their sense of humor" maybe that's it, I don't understand New Days or Cena's humor, but that doesn't make neither bad, they're just not our thing. Tons of things that we post on the funny topic, i'm sure we get the joke but the humor completely flies over our heads.



They're much different. "Sh*tty little boots" comes across like fans that have found a fun thing to chant. "Cena sucks" tells Cena that you think he sucks. There is a lot more heat in "CENA SUCKS!" than there is in "sh*tty little boots."
well, they're both things, chants should be fun too, i mean, you're not gonna go and chant proper critiques. it's just about messing around with the heel. Messing around with something as stupid as boots should be really annoying for the wrestler, remember fans shitting on Icarus on his tattoo? it' was fun at the time and may be irrelevant, but it surely worked for him. Fun stupid chants are chanting 'you suck' to Angle, 'what' chants, i'm sure they're fun to chant, but completely stupid IMO

I'm not saying that there can't be both comedy and serious stuff. The problem comes when the comedy is inserted into serious situations. Don't do stupid comedy sh*t in a title match or a grudge match or even in the middle of a match that isn't a comedy match. There is a reason we have guys like Colt Cabana and Kikutaro and Chuck Taylor and Santino Marella who specialize in "comedy wrestling." Comedy wrestling is it's own genre that can't be blended into serious matches the way you can do a Lucha Libre spot in an otherwise entirely strong-style match. I'm fine with having comedy wrestlers doing comedy matches, and even shifting comedy wrestlers into serious roles... but you can't insert comedy into situations that are supposed to be serious. That's what made the Homicide vs. Cabana feud work. Cabana totally abandoned his comedy to show the seriousness of the situation. The Chuck Taylor thing worked because the general idea was taken totally seriously. Chuck was getting a tile shot. For that time he wasn't portrayed as Chuck Taylor, Comedy Wrestler. He was Chuck Taylor, the lovable underdog who never wins but was now on a winning streak and getting a shot at the title.

I'm no saying "don't be funny." I'm saying don't mix the funny into the serious, which is what has been the trend around the indies for a few years now.

The AJ/Dean/Ellsworth had terrible storytelling. Ellsworth didn't deserve sh*t because he only ever won because Dean was being a huge asshole- although in WWE's mind he wasn't being an asshole, he was being funny because they were trying to write comedy. We had one babyface being an asshole while the other babyface was a totally undeserving champion.

I agree that most of the problem with Dalton is the booking, but the gimmick does have its issues.
1. He does often randomly include comedy spots in serious situations (like the spot where the Boys start to obey someone else)
2. He does the same spots all of the time, so you'd think after two or three matches his opponents would be used to it and it wouldn't throw them off anymore
3. Some of his spots do things like put himself in indefensible situations or involve him just stopping hurting the opponent specifically to do something weird.

My real issue, though, is with the fans who just go gaga for Dalton doing these same exact things all of the time. Most of Dalton Castle's overness is because he is odd and goofy, not because of his wrestling skill because he has rarely gotten to show said skill off in ROH (and was over well before he had the chance)

I guess i'ma different type of picky on this than you, I don't like when a serious wrestler gets funny during a serious feud (see Cena or Ambrose), but when I have a wrestler like the Cabana, Maximo, Castle, Ligero, Candice and Joey, or the Bucks, i don't mind them doing their funny shtick in blood matches because it IS who they are, those things are what got them wins to being with. I don't think Maximo should suddenly stop being an exotico just because his hair is on the line against RUSH, Castle's mannerisms shouldn't disappear in a serious match because that tells me that everything else we've seen was fake. I do appreciate stuff like Cabana/Homicide or Generico/Steen, but in those feuds the funny guy had to be DRIVEN to those levels, i just appreciate those feuds differently.


Roman feels much different. Roman is more than Vince's "little pet project." The fans' push back against Roman has been going on for years now, and in that time the quality of the product has dropped. I'm not blaming Roman for that (although the time and energy wasted scheming up ways to get the fans to like him do have their opportunity cost). The product hasn't been that good recently. People have been crapping all over the booking for two years now. We've had the Divas Revolution, the ridiculous botching of Bayley, Steph and Foley (both together and separately, the various Nikki Bella feuds, the various terrible Bray Wyatt feuds, the various backwards-ass feuds including Rusev & Lana, Orton-Wyatt, the various Wyatts failing on their own, the current Ziggler abomination, the atrocious use of Del Rio, the lazy crap that has been 90% of the Smackdown women's division booking, the last eight months of New Day's title run, the destruction of Gallows & Anderson... do I need to go on. The product has, on the whole, been very bad a lot more of than it has been even moderately good. Shouldn't we let Vince know? If there is anyone in wrestling right now who deserves a "PLEASE RETIRE!" chant, it's Vince.
see, but then you're attacking a 70 yr old man that actually is one of the only men to have the respect of the fans, and I don't think fans are mostly bothered by all the extra bad booking, it's really the Reigns project we've seen for the last 3 yrs that gets to them. Like I said, he JUST retired one of the biggest icons in wrestling.


What's wrong with Mustafa Ali? He's a fine talk and an exciting high-flyer. If your attitude is "don't give me this new guy, give me someone I already know I like" then no one will get over.
And the difference between the beach ball and being on your phone is that one is an impulsive thing you do because you're not currently being entertained enough, while the other is something that premeditated. They didn't find that beach ball on the floor. They brought it with them with the intent to f*ck around with it during the show.
Oh. And nobody starts an "I'M ON MY PHONE!" chant.

nothing wrong with Ali, i like him, but the match was a nothing match. The post WM RAW is not for getting new people over necessarily, fans already know everyone and want to cheer their favorites. WWE didn't send out Ali, or Dana, or Mahal to get them over, it was just normal RAW booking.



cero2k wrote:
The Hardys just beat Gallows & Anderson. Revival are the only heels left. I'd be shocked if they don't win the titles from the Hardys by Summer Slam.
I don't disagree with you, i just see them more useful in Smackdown right now, and you only need to bring a heel team to RAW after the shake up. I don't think they'll shine as much if they stay on RAW.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by KILLdozer » Apr 5th, '17, 14:56

Superstar Shakeup... Brock Lesnar to SD lol
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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by cero2k » Apr 5th, '17, 14:59

KILLdozer wrote:Superstar Shakeup... Brock Lesnar to SD lol

i seriously want the tag and women's champ to change so that RAW has blue belts and Smackdown red ones.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by KILLdozer » Apr 5th, '17, 15:08

cero2k wrote:
KILLdozer wrote:Superstar Shakeup... Brock Lesnar to SD lol

i seriously want the tag and women's champ to change so that RAW has blue belts and Smackdown red ones.


Yes. That would be hilarious.
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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by KILLdozer » Apr 5th, '17, 15:45

I was about to say I'd love to see them try to explain that...But you can almost guarantee that would start up the next round of their ridiculous cliche slogans etc .
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Re: BRM Reviews the 4/3/2017 Raw (Worst Crowd Ever)

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 5th, '17, 16:52

cero2k wrote:
Big Red Machine wrote:No, cheering the heels isn't bad if it's just the usual "LET'S GO X!" It becomes a problem when you do what they did in PWG (which then spilled over to everywhere else) and cheer every last thing they do because that takes away their ability to get any heat, and if they can't get heat by being heels then you shouldn't book them as heels. Being a bad guy is cool sometimes, but the problem comes when guys like Hero or Steen or Cole or the Bucks reach the point where they could set a barrel full of live kittens on fire in the middle of the ring and everyone would cheer.
A lot of indies haven't figured it out. Gabe figured it out by rarely having his heels do anything heelish other than be dicks or things that are guaranteed to get boos like backing down from a fight. The only guys Gabe as booked as real, hard heels recently have Ethan Page and the P.A.B. Even with Galloway's group Gabe made sure that a reasonable person could clearly see things from their point of view and thus it would make kayfabe sense that some in the crowd might sympathize with them. Quack has figured it out by creating a culture where kayfabe is strictly adhered to among the fans during the show. No one else that I've seen has done so on a consistent basis. PWG certainly hasn't, and ROH is even worse than PWG because they went out of their way to turn the Young Bucks heels despite knowing what sort of reaction they would get.
Yes, WWE are the only ones that get pissed when fans don't follow the script (though I assume Quack would, too), but it's also a bad idea to set a script that you know from the beginning that fans won't follow?

The Buck in particular are a separate issue where they have taken their sh*t to such unnecessary extremes to the point that they have created a third group that has go-away heat towards them for doing sh*t that they would be no less over if they stopped doing. The stupid, annoying "comedy" sh*t. And maybe the fans who cheer it really do find it that sort of thing funny even after seeing it a million times and I just don't understand their sense of humor, but more often than not I get the sense that they're just cheering it because it's a Young Bucks spot and they cheer everything the Bucks do.

so two things here, (1) so if wrestling fans/chants have evolved, then wrestling needs to evolve too (no pun intende), that's what that 'getting it' means. If you took away a method to get heel, you find other ways to do it, wrestling and storytelling should evolve on a daily basis as much as Cornette hates it. You show a way that Gabe did it, that is just one way. PWG most definitely figured it out by moving away as much as possible from the typical face/heel dynamic, and when someone goes heel, they definitely go heel like Roddy did, was he still getting some pro-roddy chants? of course, he's an amazing wrestler, and some of us fans can identify with heels. It's perfect that wrestlers get both type of chants now a days.
[color=#FF0000]The Bucks totally do heelish things in PWG and get cheered for it. If PWG were moving away from those dynamics, they wouldn't be doing those things (or Jack Evans, or others that don't come to mind right now). It's not a promotional shift away from face/heel dynamics if guys are going out there and doing heelish things like biting their opponents (Dune) or grabbing their crotches (Ciampa, when he was there). It's the promotion just letting the wrestlers do what they want because they don't care how the fans respond (as long as it's not, like, racist etc. obviously). Not caring is different from purposely moving away from something like Beyond seems to have done (from what little I've seen of them, anyway).


(2) "I just don't understand their sense of humor" maybe that's it, I don't understand New Days or Cena's humor, but that doesn't make neither bad, they're just not our thing. Tons of things that we post on the funny topic, i'm sure we get the joke but the humor completely flies over our heads. [/color]
The difference is that with Cena and (most of the time) with New Day, the comedy isn't based in their matches. With the Bucks it usually is.

They're much different. "Sh*tty little boots" comes across like fans that have found a fun thing to chant. "Cena sucks" tells Cena that you think he sucks. There is a lot more heat in "CENA SUCKS!" than there is in "sh*tty little boots."
well, they're both things, chants should be fun too, i mean, you're not gonna go and chant proper critiques. it's just about messing around with the heel. Messing around with something as stupid as boots should be really annoying for the wrestler, remember fans shitting on Icarus on his tattoo? it' was fun at the time and may be irrelevant, but it surely worked for him. Fun stupid chants are chanting 'you suck' to Angle, 'what' chants, i'm sure they're fun to chant, but completely stupid IMO
It's supposed to be about expressing your dislike of the heel and/or his his/her tactics. The Icarus back tattoo thing never (or, at least, rarely) happens DURING a match. Yeah, it's a little fun thing for before the match, but once the serious time starts it's "BOO! WE HATE YOU ICARUS!" not "YOUR TATTOO IS UGLY!"
I'm not saying that there can't be both comedy and serious stuff. The problem comes when the comedy is inserted into serious situations. Don't do stupid comedy sh*t in a title match or a grudge match or even in the middle of a match that isn't a comedy match. There is a reason we have guys like Colt Cabana and Kikutaro and Chuck Taylor and Santino Marella who specialize in "comedy wrestling." Comedy wrestling is it's own genre that can't be blended into serious matches the way you can do a Lucha Libre spot in an otherwise entirely strong-style match. I'm fine with having comedy wrestlers doing comedy matches, and even shifting comedy wrestlers into serious roles... but you can't insert comedy into situations that are supposed to be serious. That's what made the Homicide vs. Cabana feud work. Cabana totally abandoned his comedy to show the seriousness of the situation. The Chuck Taylor thing worked because the general idea was taken totally seriously. Chuck was getting a tile shot. For that time he wasn't portrayed as Chuck Taylor, Comedy Wrestler. He was Chuck Taylor, the lovable underdog who never wins but was now on a winning streak and getting a shot at the title.

I'm no saying "don't be funny." I'm saying don't mix the funny into the serious, which is what has been the trend around the indies for a few years now.

The AJ/Dean/Ellsworth had terrible storytelling. Ellsworth didn't deserve sh*t because he only ever won because Dean was being a huge asshole- although in WWE's mind he wasn't being an asshole, he was being funny because they were trying to write comedy. We had one babyface being an asshole while the other babyface was a totally undeserving champion.

I agree that most of the problem with Dalton is the booking, but the gimmick does have its issues.
1. He does often randomly include comedy spots in serious situations (like the spot where the Boys start to obey someone else)
2. He does the same spots all of the time, so you'd think after two or three matches his opponents would be used to it and it wouldn't throw them off anymore
3. Some of his spots do things like put himself in indefensible situations or involve him just stopping hurting the opponent specifically to do something weird.

My real issue, though, is with the fans who just go gaga for Dalton doing these same exact things all of the time. Most of Dalton Castle's overness is because he is odd and goofy, not because of his wrestling skill because he has rarely gotten to show said skill off in ROH (and was over well before he had the chance)

I guess i'ma different type of picky on this than you, I don't like when a serious wrestler gets funny during a serious feud (see Cena or Ambrose), but when I have a wrestler like the Cabana, Maximo, Castle, Ligero, Candice and Joey, or the Bucks, i don't mind them doing their funny shtick in blood matches because it IS who they are, those things are what got them wins to being with. I don't think Maximo should suddenly stop being an exotico just because his hair is on the line against RUSH, Castle's mannerisms shouldn't disappear in a serious match because that tells me that everything else we've seen was fake. I do appreciate stuff like Cabana/Homicide or Generico/Steen, but in those feuds the funny guy had to be DRIVEN to those levels, i just appreciate those feuds differently.
With Maximo, you are correct. He is an exotico. He shouldn't stop being one because he is in a serious feud. But he shouldn't start making out with the referee or whatever in the middle of a match where his hair is on the line.

With Dalton I think that he needs to tone down what it means to be Dalton Castle. There are spots that he does that shouldn't be done in any match someone is trying to win. He will still be Dalton Castle without them. He'll still have the Boys the his entrance and his promo style and his wild hair and mustache and his Dalton Castle offensive move-set. He just needs to cut out the stuff that doesn't make sense in his matches.

With the Bucks I am disputing your assertion that being funny is "what got them wins to begin with." They won because they hit wrestling moves on their opponents. A guy like Cabana or Joey or Delirious will occasionally win a match because he did something funny that threw his opponent off and let him catch him with a roll-up, but 9 times out of 10 they win their matches because they hit their opponents with wrestling moves and wear them down to the point where their opponents can't kick out.



Roman feels much different. Roman is more than Vince's "little pet project." The fans' push back against Roman has been going on for years now, and in that time the quality of the product has dropped. I'm not blaming Roman for that (although the time and energy wasted scheming up ways to get the fans to like him do have their opportunity cost). The product hasn't been that good recently. People have been crapping all over the booking for two years now. We've had the Divas Revolution, the ridiculous botching of Bayley, Steph and Foley (both together and separately, the various Nikki Bella feuds, the various terrible Bray Wyatt feuds, the various backwards-ass feuds including Rusev & Lana, Orton-Wyatt, the various Wyatts failing on their own, the current Ziggler abomination, the atrocious use of Del Rio, the lazy crap that has been 90% of the Smackdown women's division booking, the last eight months of New Day's title run, the destruction of Gallows & Anderson... do I need to go on. The product has, on the whole, been very bad a lot more of than it has been even moderately good. Shouldn't we let Vince know? If there is anyone in wrestling right now who deserves a "PLEASE RETIRE!" chant, it's Vince.
see, but then you're attacking a 70 yr old man that actually is one of the only men to have the respect of the fans, and I don't think fans are mostly bothered by all the extra bad booking, it's really the Reigns project we've seen for the last 3 yrs that gets to them. Like I said, he JUST retired one of the biggest icons in wrestling.
Of course fans are bothered by the bad booking. That's why they've been tuning out or crapping on Bayley or booing the hell out of Steph. Yeah, okay, Vince has respect for the fans- possibly more than most promoters throughout history, many of whom just viewed the fans as marks to be fleeced, but when compared to many others who have had more respect for the fans (including pretty much every other promoter out there today, BTW), I think he comes up quite short, because he has the big money TV contracts that let him ignore the fans.

What's wrong with Mustafa Ali? He's a fine talk and an exciting high-flyer. If your attitude is "don't give me this new guy, give me someone I already know I like" then no one will get over.
And the difference between the beach ball and being on your phone is that one is an impulsive thing you do because you're not currently being entertained enough, while the other is something that premeditated. They didn't find that beach ball on the floor. They brought it with them with the intent to f*ck around with it during the show.
Oh. And nobody starts an "I'M ON MY PHONE!" chant.

nothing wrong with Ali, i like him, but the match was a nothing match. The post WM RAW is not for getting new people over necessarily, fans already know everyone and want to cheer their favorites. WWE didn't send out Ali, or Dana, or Mahal to get them over, it was just normal RAW booking.
I'm not saying that what they did was good booking because it wasn't. Even if Ali hadn't been going into a #1 contendership match the next night, just sending him out there to job to Neville was not productive in any way. But that's no reason to just ignore a match, especially one that could have been quite good. So what if it's the Raw after WrestleMania? What favorites did you want to see on the show that weren't there? You wanted Tozawa to job to Neville? Or Aries? This show had Emma and Balor and Kurt returning, The Revival debuting and doing a big injury angle with New Day, a tag title match, a #1 contendership match, and Brock facing down Strowman. That's more than most shows are going to get all year.
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