cero2k wrote: ↑Nov 13th, '18, 17:51
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Nov 13th, '18, 01:07
It is bad when it's eleven straight shows. If you want people to come to those shows then you can't treat them like throw-away shows with the B crew. And it's even worse when you consider that when RevPro did these sorts of shows last year, they usually would have the champions there and usual would have a title defense, so switching away from that this year makes those shows look less important than they used to be as opposed to if it had been something they had never done in the first place.
Making one weekend a month isn't hard. That's why EVOLVE can get away with their champions working for NXT the other three weekends and also during the week. But when you're running a show three weekends a month and the champions are only there one, it's not good.
But they ARE B shows, they don't even get unique sounding names, or anything, and people still go. I'm sure if it came that one of those Live at shows wasn't making money, they either don't go back to that spot or stop coming, and it's only guys like Suzuki and Ishii missing, those shows still have some great wrestlers.
It's Ishii and Suzuki and Zack, and Ospreay, and Jamie Hayter (their women's champ, who works STARDOM a lot), and RingKampf are rarely on those shows.
And are these guys drawing that much for them? I tried comparing York Hall attendances, but it's hard to find a York Hall show without some relatively major New Japan guys on it, and of the ones that do, a chunk of them either had Kurt Angle or a bunch of ROH big names (Lethal, AJ, Sydal) or guys like Ricochet on them in in bunches, too. The one I found that did the best was
High Stakes 2016, whose only New Japan representation was AJ, and whose only other big fly-in was Lethal (the only other foreigners on the show were Cabana and Speedball This was before Scurll, Zack, and Ospreay started in New Japan), which did 1,200. The second best seems to have been
High Stakes 2017, drawing 1,183, which had Shibata and YOSHI-HASHI from New Japan, plus War Machine, Trevor Lee, Riddle, and still-on-excursion Jay White. The big show in December last year with Cody, the Bucks, Riddle, and Lethal (and also had Zack and Marty on the show in big matches, but no Ospreay) only did 1,100.
High Stakes 2018 with Suzuki, EVIL, & Sanada (and also Zack) also did 1,100. As did this show here with all of the New Japan guys. Just two months before
High Stakes 2016 then ran a big show in York Hall (
Uprising 2015) with AJ, Tanahashi, Okada, Nakamura, Naito, KUSHIDA, Kojima, Tenzan, Liger, and Gedo (plus Kyle O'Reilly), and was the RevPro debut for Naito, Kyle, and KUSHIDA, and the UK debut overall for Naito and KUSHIDA. That show only drew 680. So it seems to be that at best they are break-even,if not hurting a little (and that's on the biggest of shows), and that what is actually happen is that the audience grew with the British indy boom.
(For the record, I got these attendance figures from CageMatch first, then went to Dave if CageMatch didn't have anything, because unless WWE, TNA, or Inoki are involved, Dave has a reputation for just taking promoters at their word, even if people in the arena clearly say it's wrong. For the purposes of transparency, Dave does have that 2015 show even with the 1,200 from
High Stakes 2016, but even then, a HUGE show with New Japan guys is at best equal to a show with minimum New Japan representation, which has regularly outdrawn what they're going now by 100.
Again, in interests of transparency, there is a show from 2016 (
Summer Sizzle 2016) that Dave lists as doing 1,500, but that seems like it must be a mistake to me, simply because no other show in that building has ever been listed as doing anything higher than 1,200, and Dave often calls 1,200 in that building a sellout [except when he calls even less than that a sellout], but even if it isn't a mistake, that is still a show with minimal New Japan representation- just Shibata and Ishii [and I guess technically Matt Sydal], and it did a chunk better than they're doing now)
cero2k wrote: ↑Nov 13th, '18, 17:51
It's 2018, the champion doesn't sell, it's the name that does, you could put your title on Bodom and Ishii will still sell more than him.
But having Bodom as the champ for all of the shows Ishii isn't on will sell more than without the champ on the show at all. If it's the name that does most of the selling then you get no added benefit from having a belt on Ishii, but there is an added opportunity cost.
cero2k wrote: ↑Nov 13th, '18, 17:51
And making one weekend a month is a whole lot harder when you live continents away than crossing the US even if EVOLVE was on california.
That's true... but that's why, for example, OTT tends to run their major shows the same weekend that RevPro runs theirs. So you have more people to bring the Japanese and American fly-ins in. Also, if the show is more difficult because of distance then just don't your belts on someone who lives far away.
But a lot of this is also down to the fact that New Japan won't give guys like Suzuki, Zack, and Ishii off from a weekend of "Road To..." shows to work for RevPro. NXT has made clear that they're willing to do that for EVOLVE, and I'm sure Gabe never would have put the belts on the guys otherwise.
cero2k wrote: ↑Nov 13th, '18, 17:51
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Nov 12th, '18, 17:55
If you're just doing it for the sake of doing it then you shouldn't be doing it. Or go to a draw. For every other company that has an anniversary event, it's one of their biggest shows of the year, but New Japan purposely doesn't have two of their top titles defended?
Also, it's not like this is some long-standing Japanese tradition, either. They've only done it three times (2013, 2014, and 2018). Last year Okada defended his belt against Ibushi, and he defended against Naito in 2012.
Those are actually the only 'anniversary' shows they've done, and well, traditions do need to start from somewhere. I don't see why everything always needs to have some big story repercussions before and after. CMLL wrestlers from the Day of the Dead show don't actually die when they get dragged to hell. If we ever see the heavyweight champ squash the jr, then maybe we can question the booking decision, but putting two champs together and having a competitive match is perfectly ok.
Because the "day of the dead" show is pretty obviously a gimmick. But it this was, say Lucha Underground or even CHIKARA, you'd have reason to think that someone who you are told is getting dragged away to hell is actually now dead.
A champion losing is something that should matter. And in this particular case, I feel like it buries the whole division because they'll
never let the junior heavyweight win, and they almost never let juniors pin heavyweights in any situation. The one time a year they do a big star heavyweight vs. a big star jr. we always see the jr. lose, but it's not like if KUSHIDA loses to Okada there, they do anything to rehab him like letting him beat Goto or Ishii or even a guy like Elgin or Makabe, never mind Naito or Tananashi. If they booked KUSHIDA vs. Tanahashi, Tanahashi could have the most f*cked-up shoulder in the world, and he'd still beat KUSHIDA clean as a sheet.
cero2k wrote: ↑Nov 12th, '18, 15:35
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Nov 12th, '18, 17:55
Because the TV show has been really good. But I'm probably not going to watch Uprising because of this.
I don't understand your problem with PROGRESS. You act like they don't have a large chunk of guys who are on top of the promotion who aren't under WWE contract. They've got WALTER, Havoc, Haskins, Aussie Open, Ospreay, Thatcher, ZSJ, Paul Robinson is a thing again- and even their guys who are WWE guys were top guys in PROGRESS first, so it's not even like EVOLVE where these NXT guys just showed up and won all of the titles.
I don't have a problem with WWE contracted wrestlers, I have a problem with how they're portrayed against the ones that are not, and i'm not talking top guys like you could compare with Ishii or Suzuki, i'm talking the lower guys. I have a problem with the promotion sucking up constantly to WWE and when the contracted kids do come, everyone starts creaming themselves like if they had just booked John Cena. If PROGRESS got Randy Orton and Seth Rollins, I would completely understand the marking out and putting them over, but they get the lowest tiered wrestlers like Ohno and Gallagher and pretend like Tyler Bate is the second coming of jesus after he got the WWE rub. If your complain here was only focused on Taichi defeating Brookes and Oka, then I'd be more on your side.
I've only seen Gallagher in PROGRESS twice, and it was him filling in for someone on a US tour so I can't speak to the way commentary treated him, but just looking at the results, it seems like they got him for a more shows, gave him some wins as a prelude for something, but then he went to WWE full-time, then came back as a fill-in for Dunne being injured, then did two shows worth of angles to build up to the match he was supposed to have with Dunne anyway where he did a job (though having him beat Banks at the time he beat him was a bad idea).
I really can't speak to the way Bate was treated, either, as I don't think I saw much of him in PROGRESS before WWE got him, but nothing they did with him booking-wise seemed egregious to me, and he has been pushed pretty hard by WWE when you consider how little time he actually spent wrestling for WWE in 2016, so I don't think it's fair to lump him in as an underneath guy, and with Ohno, I don't feel that the way they've booked him the few times they had him since his WWE return is at all out of line with the way any indy promotion in the fast fifteen years has booked Chris Hero.
cero2k wrote: ↑Nov 12th, '18, 15:35
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Nov 12th, '18, 17:55
This isn't PWG where you can just change the title all willy-nilly and it doesn't matter. This is a promotion with actual storylines and angles. They should have had a damn good idea in April of where the title was going to be in at least October, if not January. And they must have known by at least the end of June because Gedo had to book the G1, and I'll bet you anything he has all of his big WK singles matches figured out by the time he starts booking the G1.
So by April Gedo knows he wants Ishii vs Sabre at WK and thus books Sabre to defeat Ishii at the G1 and has told RevPro to put the title on Ishii since then (even though we saw the title change hands) because it be the perfect excuse to have that match. Yeah, that doesn't seem likely. I'm sure Gedo knew he wanted Tana vs Omega, Okada vs White, and Jericho vs Naito, MAYBE Ospreay vs Ibushi, but the rest I highly doubt he had ready since back then, to tell RevPro, hey, we know you have this guy that is flirting with AJPW, but how about you crown this other guy that pretty much everyone in the world thinks is amazing and is willing to travel to the UK for you guys. if Gedo is as bad as you say, I can't imagine he had Ishii vs Sabre booked since April.
I imagine Gedo probably knew he was doing Ishii vs. ZSJ at the Tokyo Dome by the time he had finished booking the G1 out, so let's say early July at the latest. And even if you take the matches you listed out there, that doesn't leave you with too many options for these other guys. What other big or even semi-big name singles guys do they have? Goto, Ishii, Suzuki, Zack, MAYBE Sanada & EVIL if they don't win the tag tournament or wind up in the six-man tag silliness... who else? Juice? Cody? Elgin? Makabe? Fale? Taichi? There aren't that many realistic possibilities to allow guys like that to have a big match, and with Suzuki especially they always want him in a singles match, and you can't do Goto vs. Suzuki AGAIN, plus you can't do Zack vs. Suzuki or Goto vs. Ishii because they're both in CHAOS, so Suzuki vs. Ishii seems pretty clear, and especially when you know they're going to have at least one more match because RevPro has probably told you they want to do a rematch.
But when Andy Quildan took the belt off of Zack I would imagine that he would have known where the title was going to be in at least October, if not later, and he should have known how protective NJPW is and that they probably wouldn't let their guys work more than just the big shows because all of that is stuff that should have been hammered out when he was first going to put the belt someone who was a New Japan regular.
I'd tell Gedo that's all well and nice and I'd love for you to let me use Ishii, but I want my belt someone who I can count on to be around for more than one show a month.
As for what to do about Bodom's flirtations with AJPW, you move your planned title change to Epic Encounter and tell New Japan that there is zero reason to be protecting Zack because he's on his way down the card now after losing to Okada, and if they still say no you put the belt on someone like Yehi or Brookes for a month and have him drop it to Bodom.
cero2k wrote: ↑Nov 12th, '18, 15:35
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Nov 12th, '18, 17:55
1) EVOLVE is only in Florida once every few months
2) YES. Because their positions in the companies they're holding titles in are the same. On every EVOLVE show, Gabe gets to say "come see Evolve World Champion Fabian Aichner and Evolve Tag Team Champions the Street Profits!" while on most of his shows Quildan can only say "come see our show that has some matches on it" because it doesn't matter how much of a big international star Ishii and Suzuki are because they can't draw sh*t for RevPro
when they're not on the card.
If Fabian Aichner and the Street Profits actually make a buck for EVOLVE, then RevPro has zero issues using their other champs and wrestlers to make the buck too. Champions don't draw, stories don't draw; but names and workrate does, it's 2018.
You say champions don't draw, but then why do even the highest of workrate promotions promotions (current New Japan, 1990s All Japan, Gabe-era ROH) protect their champions at all costs? If it's all names and workrate then who the f*ck should care how many jobs Omega or Okada do? But clearly Gedo does.
If stories don't draw then why did the Being The Elite Crew spend so much time on their little Bullet Club Civil War? Omega vs. Cody doesn't mean sh*t if they don't start a storyline in June 2017. If storylines don't mean anything then why is PROGRESS the biggest company in the UK when RevPro is the one that gets to use all of the world-class ***** Dave Meltzer wet dream NJPW talent, plus top guys from ROH? WWE isn't sending PROGRESS Rollins, AJ, Joe, and Bryan. They're not even sending them The Revival. They're letting them keep using a few guys they were already using, and yet it's PROGRESS that's growing a lot faster than RevPro.
If storylines don't matter then why did Becky Lynch get red hot having random, mediocre matches on Smackdown? And if championships don't matter then why did everyone get in such a tizzy when Becky didn't win one at SummerSlam?
cero2k wrote: ↑Nov 12th, '18, 15:35
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Nov 12th, '18, 17:55
RevPro has had a TV slot before when they weren't doing too well, so that doesn't really change much. The question is can they turn that TV slot into increased attendance/ VOD subscriptions?
Yes, there is no reason to expect that NJPW will pull their guys from RevPro, but it's a situation a booker should be concerned about. They should be building other guys up even just because those guys arne't on 80% of the shows. Or what if something as simple as what happened with Marty Scurll happens and Zack and Ospreay decide to move to the US? Or New Japan starts running even longer tours and you lose even more access to these guys (they have been increasing the length of the tours every year for the past few years)?
Booking Starr vs. WALTER sounds nice, but is it going to help you draw these new TV fans you've made if they've only seen these guys lose to old Japanese men?
Aside from WWE, i'm sure all bookers constantly live with the idea that at any point, they won't be able to use some wrestler, because even now, maybe aside from Naito and Tanahashi, WWE could just go and buy anyone out. Booker's can't just go around being scared of losing talent, not in the last 20 years.
You're talking like RevPro fans are casuals that have no idea who WALTER is and because he lost to Kojima he's suddenly ruined, everyone in RevPro surely has a good idea who Ishii and Suzuki and all those guys are, losing to them doesn't hurt you. Just like losing to old man Taker doesn't hurt wrestlers as much as people pretend it does. they're not just some random old men, it's freaking Suzuki and Ishii. PAC is returning to RevPro soon, are they just gonna have Phantasmo go over him? hell no
The new fans RevPro hopes to attract with their TV show are casual, though.
And yes, a booker can't just go around being scared of losing talent, but there is zero reason not be developing your own talent anyway- and I'd argue that goes doubly so in the past few years with WWE being on a shopping spree and especially with the NXT UK expansion, I'd be very conscious of it if I were a British promotion, just like American indies have been for years. That's why Gabe never stopped developing talent. London and Spanky leave, plus Dragon moves to the UK for six months and I have limited dates on AJ coming up? Okay. I'd accelerate Punk and Homicide's pushes,. turn Maff into a singles guy, and start setting the wheels in motion to see what guys like BJ Whitmer and Matt Striker can do.
RF scandal happens and I'm losing AJ, Daniels, and Lynn? Well now Aries, Strong, Shelley and Evans will get pushed, and I'll see what Jimmy Jacobs and Nigel McGuinness can bring to the table. And on and on it went.