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Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Jul 5th, '18, 15:44
by Big Red Machine
cero2k wrote:
Jul 5th, '18, 15:03
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 5th, '18, 11:40

Soccer is a horrific example, considering that they don't even play a consistent amount of time in every game. This "stoppage time" silliness needs to stop right away. Just blow the whistle and stop the clock when the ball goes out of bounds. That way you don't have to round to the nearest minute and every game can be played for the same amount of time like it's supposed to be.
Yes, it's up to the referee's discretion, but there is a certain level that is just WAY over the line, which gets crossed in basically every match. In a real sport, when a call that is up to the referee's discretion winds up going against the rules and affects the outcome of the came, that referee is absolutely crucified. And during the game, the announcers always preach fidelity to the rules. They will try to explain to you what they think the referee saw (or didn't see) that resulted in the referee making the call he/she made. That is vastly different from what we see most places in pro wrestling nowadays where the referee blatantly ignores the rules and the announcers hail him/her as some sort of hero for doing so.

As for the Watts analogy, that doesn't hold any water. Watts' changes to the in-ring product all had to do with psychology. He took away top rope stuff because he thought he could retrain the audience to accept it as this sort of devastating thing that heels could do illegally to hurt the babyface, not because he had some hatred for this new-fangled jumping stuff.


There is a clear and obvious solution to this problem. Gabe found it. Why can't anyone else?
except it is not a problem, it's only your problem, no one else complains about it, especially to the point where they're willing to hinder what is considered, by laaarge (majority?) consensus of wrestling fans, the best wrestling match ever. I believe Gabe is a good booker and I believe that he made that call because it made sense to THAT specific story, not because he learned that his guys are going to spend more than 20 seconds outside the ring and they don't want to break a count.

Soccer is a perfect example, because in sports and in wrestling, sometimes you need to adapt. Rules are important, but the anal enforcement of them only leads to boring ass spectacles that kill momentum. ESPECIALLY, in a fake sport like wrestling.
You don't adapt by arbitrarily letting sh*t go if you think it's cool enough. You adapt by changing the rules. The NHL thought that the two-line pass rule was preventing exciting plays from happening so they responded not by telling the referees to let it go sometimes, but by eliminating the rule altogether.

And that's exactly what Gabe did. There was no story that required the rules to be changed. They were changed so that wrestlers could give people that wild brawling on the outside without having to hurt the momentum by running back to the ring to break the count, while keeping people like me happy by creating a reason for them not to be counted out.
Yes, wrestling is a "fake sport," but it's a fake sport in the same way that The West Wing is a fake TV show about American politics. But that TV show has a premise which must be adhered to. Just because it's a fake show about American politics doesn't mean that you can decide that in this one episode Barlett only needs forty votes to get a bill through the senate just because you have a cool speech about the hard work of a dedicate minority that you want him to give, because that's not how American law works.
You can't have a ref decide to just not count the wrestlers out because they have a cool spot they want to do (never mind a pointless lazy spot like the usual Suzuki-Gun chair stuff) because that's not how sports work. Referees evaluate things based on adherence to the rules, not coolness. And to have guys nor get counted out forever and then only have a count-out start when you want the drama of a count-out tease is even worse because having a rule switch between applying and not applying solely as demanded by the plot purely for the sake of drama is cheap drama and sh*t storytelling. And that's not just a pro wrestling thing. That's a key element of all storytelling.

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Jul 19th, '18, 21:37
by cero2k
Uncle Meltz gave Naito vs Omega 5 snowflakes, as well as Omega vs Goto. can't disagree with Naito vs Omega, but I thought Naito vs Ishii was far better than Omega vs Goto

other
ibushi vs Sabre 4. 3/4 snowflakes
Goto vs Sanada 4 1/4 snowflakes
tanahashi vs suzuki 4 1/2 snowflakes
Juice vs Ibushi 4 1/2 snowflakes
Naito vs Ishii 4 3/4 snowflakes

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Jul 22nd, '18, 17:42
by Big Red Machine
Completely under the radar, Dave gave the Undisputed Era vs. Moustache Mountain tag title match from NXT TV *****.

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Jul 22nd, '18, 17:52
by cero2k
goto vs ishii from yesterday, i gave it a 10.

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Jul 22nd, '18, 18:05
by Big Red Machine
cero2k wrote:
Jul 22nd, '18, 17:52
goto vs ishii from yesterday, i gave it a 10.
I figure a lot of people will. It's got an average over of well over 9.7 on cagematch. I went 9.25 myself. I expect Dave to go at least 6 because he just doesn't care anymore and throws out a bunch of snowflakes like it's nothing.

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Jul 22nd, '18, 18:07
by Big Red Machine
cero2k wrote:
Jul 19th, '18, 21:37
Uncle Meltz gave Naito vs Omega 5 snowflakes, as well as Omega vs Goto. can't disagree with Naito vs Omega, but I thought Naito vs Ishii was far better than Omega vs Goto
Bryan and Vinny agree with you. I had them both at 8.5/10.

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Aug 12th, '18, 15:48
by Big Red Machine
Adding Tanahashi vs. Ibushi G1 Finals.

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Aug 19th, '18, 11:30
by Big Red Machine
Ciampa and Gargano did it again.


Also, I just saw this week's observer, and now I'm CONVINCED that Dave has a ridiculous bias towards Okada and Omega. With the way Dave was talking about the G1 final, I expected him to give it AT LEAST ******1/2, but he only gave it *****3/4. The only match-up to ever get ****** that wasn't Omega vs. Okada was the Misawa Kawada match, and (aside from the possibly apocryphal *****+ ratings that have supposedly been attributed to Dave for early 90's Joshi or 89 Flair vs. Steamboat house show matches), only Ibushi vs. Tanahashi and Hiromu vs. Ishimori have ever gotten more than ***** without either Omega or Okada being involved.

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Aug 19th, '18, 17:31
by cero2k
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 19th, '18, 11:30
Ciampa and Gargano did it again.


Also, I just saw this week's observer, and now I'm CONVINCED that Dave has a ridiculous bias towards Okada and Omega. With the way Dave was talking about the G1 final, I expected him to give it AT LEAST ******1/2, but he only gave it *****3/4. The only match-up to ever get ****** that wasn't Omega vs. Okada was the Misawa Kawada match, and (aside from the possibly apocryphal *****+ ratings that have supposedly been attributed to Dave for early 90's Joshi or 89 Flair vs. Steamboat house show matches), only Ibushi vs. Tanahashi and Hiromu vs. Ishimori have ever gotten more than ***** without either Omega or Okada being involved.
I actually thought they were just gonna be 5 stars. I recently listened to the WOR after Dominion again, and that one with Tanahashi v Ibushi, and i saw the difference. I haven't read the observer tho. I'd personally would feel more inclined to give the Okada vs Omega matches a slight bias based only on the storyline that is dragging behind it.

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Sep 15th, '18, 19:28
by Big Red Machine
Just added Golden Lovers vs. Ishii & Ospreay

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Sep 16th, '18, 18:52
by Big Red Machine
For what it's worth, DAVE HIMSELF retweeted this one (about the Raw Tag Team Championship match):



Personally, I had it at a 9/10.

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Sep 27th, '18, 11:13
by cero2k
to the surprise of no one anymore, Dave gave Okada vs Tana from Kobe 5 snowflakes

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Sep 27th, '18, 14:20
by Big Red Machine
cero2k wrote:
Sep 27th, '18, 11:13
to the surprise of no one anymore, Dave gave Okada vs Tana from Kobe 5 snowflakes
On this occasion, Dave was correct.

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Sep 27th, '18, 18:32
by cero2k
Big Red Machine wrote:
Sep 27th, '18, 14:20
cero2k wrote:
Sep 27th, '18, 11:13
to the surprise of no one anymore, Dave gave Okada vs Tana from Kobe 5 snowflakes
On this occasion, Dave was correct.
with Okada vs Tanahashi matches, there's not a lot of arguing against it

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Sep 27th, '18, 20:15
by Big Red Machine
cero2k wrote:
Sep 27th, '18, 18:32
Big Red Machine wrote:
Sep 27th, '18, 14:20
cero2k wrote:
Sep 27th, '18, 11:13
to the surprise of no one anymore, Dave gave Okada vs Tana from Kobe 5 snowflakes
On this occasion, Dave was correct.
with Okada vs Tanahashi matches, there's not a lot of arguing against it
Eh. I've only gone the full 10/10 on three of them.

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Sep 27th, '18, 21:31
by cero2k
Big Red Machine wrote:
Sep 27th, '18, 20:15

Eh. I've only gone the full 10/10 on three of them.
but it's not like you've ever given them a 5/10, they're usually really up there so that if you liked it 1 or 2 points less it's not like we're seeing two different matches

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Sep 27th, '18, 21:33
by Big Red Machine
cero2k wrote:
Sep 27th, '18, 21:31
Big Red Machine wrote:
Sep 27th, '18, 20:15

Eh. I've only gone the full 10/10 on three of them.
but it's not like you've ever given them a 5/10, they're usually really up there so that if you liked it 1 or 2 points less it's not like we're seeing two different matches
I'd argue that two points less is a like seeing a different match.

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Nov 15th, '18, 08:44
by cero2k
Meltz's

White Wolf Wrestling, 14/4
Zack Sabre Jr. vs. A-Kid: 5

AJPW, 21/10
Kento Miyahara vs. Zeus: 4.5

OTT Anniversary Show
WALTER vs. Will Ospreay: 4.75 (close to 5, he actually said that if the Miyahara/Zeus match is 4.5, then WALTER/Ospreay is 5)

NEW, 9/11
Kenny Omega vs. Fenix: 4.75

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Nov 15th, '18, 14:26
by Big Red Machine
cero2k wrote:
Nov 15th, '18, 08:44


AJPW, 21/10
Kento Miyahara vs. Zeus: 4.5

OTT Anniversary Show
WALTER vs. Will Ospreay: 4.75 (close to 5, he actually said that if the Miyahara/Zeus match is 4.5, then WALTER/Ospreay is 5)
So is WALTER vs. Ospreay 5 or not, Dave?!

Re: Your 5 star matches

Posted: Dec 17th, '18, 11:17
by Big Red Machine
Kassius Ohno vs. Darby Allin from Evolve 117 definitely makes the list!