Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

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Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 7th, '19, 16:32

Let me say right off the bat that the treatment of women, LGBT people, and others in Saudi Arabia is reprehensible. I don’t think that point is even up for debate. And if you think there is absolutely no circumstance under which WWE should be doing business with these people, that’s fine. But I believe this deal has gotten out-sized attention due to the kayfabe attention being paid to these shows and the terms of the deal, and I think people are looking at that element of it all backwards.

First, though, if you believe that WWE should not be doing business with the Saudis at all, let me ask you about other places no one seemed to object to WWE doing business. Ireland did not allow same-sex marriage until this decade, but no one complained about WWE going there. Japan still doesn’t, as well as won’t allow same-sex couples to adopt, but no one has made a fuss about WWE going there. Or how about US states with anti-LGBT bathroom bills? No one seems to be upset about WWE going there.

People have said that the problem with the Saudi shows is that WWE is being used as a propaganda tool in exchange for money. They really haven’t done that since the first one, but if you still think it’s an issue then I would direct your attention to the opening segment of this week’s episode of Smackdown, in which WWE just showed us a video of Ghana where Kofi Kingston was visiting and interacting with national leaders and being a hero and having a grand old time. It made Ghana look like a very nice place. If any of the men we saw in that video were to come out as gay, they could face jail time. Is jail time (or even simply not having recognition like in some of the other places I mentioned) better than execution, like they would face in Saudi Arabia? Absolutely. But just because Jim Crow laws aren’t slavery doesn’t mean they’re not reprehensible.

So it seems to be that the things that really outrage people about this Saudi deal is the fact that WWE wouldn’t be going there if they weren’t being paid a ridiculous about of money, and the aforementioned propaganda claim. As for the money I’ll ask you to consider the following: In all of those other places I mentioned, the government makes money off of WWE coming in through things like sales tax on merch and concessions, and work-visa fees and whatever business taxes are levied on WWE for coming in. But these WWE shows are sold shows, so the government isn’t making money on those things

As for the propaganda, WWE’s defense has been that rather than being propaganda tools of the Saudi’s, they are actually going to help the Saudis change. Two days ago I’d have said their claim was total BS, but WWE for Super Showdown WWE was confident enough that they were going to get their women’s match on the show that they flew Nattie and Alexa to Saudi Arabia. And while that match didn’t make it onto the show, I did just finish watching an arena full of Saudi’s cheer for a dude named “Goldberg.” On the one hand I find this to be cause for optimism, although I still greatly doubt that such things will lead to the revolutionary democratization of Saudi Arabia that WWE claims to be believe that they are bringing.

While I believe WWE’s claim that they are going to bring cultural change to Saudi Arabia to be naïve optimism at best and (far more likely) nothing more than a PR deflection line at worst, I think there is another side of that coin which the critics ignore, and that is that WWE doesn’t have any actual influence here in the West, either. The Saudis believe themselves to have brought a propaganda tool, but they bought one that is completely ineffective. I mean... who the f*ck is taking their moral cues from WWE?

As I mentioned above, these are sold shows. The Saudi government might make some money from it, but what they’re making on ticket sales and any sales tax there might be on merch or concessions absolutely pales in comparison to the amount of money they’re paying WWE merely to put these shows on. What the Saudis hope to get out of this is a positive perception. They want to use WWE as a propaganda machine to tell everyone how wonderful Saudi Arabia is. But since the first show, WWE hasn’t done that. As many have pointed out, they have barely mentioned the city and almost never mentioned the host country. While WWE’s reasons for doing this might be a completely selfish desire to avoid criticism, the effect of it is that it even further minimizes the positive recognition that the Saudis hope to gain.

At this point the Saudis appear to be paying $10 million and getting absolutely nothing in exchange. And while there are many places I would rather see that money go than WWE’s coffers, I’m content to know that WWE making this deal with the Saudis means that that is $10 million that won’t be going to a “justice” system that arrests, tries, imprisons, and executes people for being LGBT, or for daring to not follow the state religion, or for insisting that women not be treated like second-class citizens, or to an education system that indoctrinates children with the belief that these things are okay. And if the two results of a show like this are that money being diverted from those purposes and that millions of WWE fans all around the world will get to see an arena full of people who live in a different part of the world and probably speak a different language or have a different religion than them but despite this enjoy WWE just like them, I think that’s a net positive.


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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by cero2k » Jun 7th, '19, 23:56

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 7th, '19, 16:32

First, though, if you believe that WWE should not be doing business with the Saudis at all, let me ask you about other places no one seemed to object to WWE doing business. Ireland did not allow same-sex marriage until this decade, but no one complained about WWE going there. Japan still doesn’t, as well as won’t allow same-sex couples to adopt, but no one has made a fuss about WWE going there. Or how about US states with anti-LGBT bathroom bills? No one seems to be upset about WWE going there.
i mean, not giving same sex marriage licenses is not exactly like a government dismembering people they don't like. WWE is for the kids, and here is Saudi Arabia about to execute a 13 yr old for protesting.
You see, when WWE goes to say Ireland, the people who go and pay for the show may or may not really have the power to change their laws that that the place has, and if WWE came out in support of such laws, chances are people wouldn't go to the show. WWE doesn't exactly go to Ireland and do a private show paid by the anti-LGTB government's pocket. They go and book a place, pay their permits and visas, and sell the show to whoever wants to go, yeah, they'll pay taxes, but at the end of the day, they'll make more money from that crowd.
You're trying to make it like it's a 'Saudi Arabia' problem, but the truth is that not everyone there thinks the same way as the oppressors. Just like not all of Japan is against same sex marriage, just like not all of Colorado is for Legalized Marijuana. Furthermore, none of those places get to really dictate who gets to be on the show, who gets to watch the show, and what is being promoted during those shows. This isn't WWE doing a show in SA, this is WWE taking money from the prince and jumping as high as he wants.
With Saudi, these shows ARE paid by the prince and he dictates everything, so in this particular case, WWE is indeed taking the money of the guy mandating the dismemberment. Are you going to defend WWE when they do a show paid by the Cartel de Sinaloa too? They haven't done propaganda videos, so what? we all know why they stopped, they took heat and asked not to do them, they still promote all that shit on social media and have mansoor or whatever his name is showcased all over the place, it's still WWE sucking up for that sweet sweet Saudi money.

you're trying to judge people's lack of knowledge as hypocrisy. Do you think the WWE fanbase know's about Ghana's history with LGBT rights? Hell, i don't even think WWE knows about them either. since you're in a quest against hypocrisy against anything WWE, then when can also talk about the #womensrevolution, Be-A-Star, and all that crap that WWE does for their shameless PR.

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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 10th, '19, 21:49

cero2k wrote:
Jun 7th, '19, 23:56
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 7th, '19, 16:32

First, though, if you believe that WWE should not be doing business with the Saudis at all, let me ask you about other places no one seemed to object to WWE doing business. Ireland did not allow same-sex marriage until this decade, but no one complained about WWE going there. Japan still doesn’t, as well as won’t allow same-sex couples to adopt, but no one has made a fuss about WWE going there. Or how about US states with anti-LGBT bathroom bills? No one seems to be upset about WWE going there.
i mean, not giving same sex marriage licenses is not exactly like a government dismembering people they don't like. WWE is for the kids, and here is Saudi Arabia about to execute a 13 yr old for protesting.
You see, when WWE goes to say Ireland, the people who go and pay for the show may or may not really have the power to change their laws that that the place has, and if WWE came out in support of such laws, chances are people wouldn't go to the show. WWE doesn't exactly go to Ireland and do a private show paid by the anti-LGTB government's pocket. They go and book a place, pay their permits and visas, and sell the show to whoever wants to go, yeah, they'll pay taxes, but at the end of the day, they'll make more money from that crowd.
You're trying to make it like it's a 'Saudi Arabia' problem, but the truth is that not everyone there thinks the same way as the oppressors. Just like not all of Japan is against same sex marriage, just like not all of Colorado is for Legalized Marijuana. Furthermore, none of those places get to really dictate who gets to be on the show, who gets to watch the show, and what is being promoted during those shows. This isn't WWE doing a show in SA, this is WWE taking money from the prince and jumping as high as he wants.
With Saudi, these shows ARE paid by the prince and he dictates everything, so in this particular case, WWE is indeed taking the money of the guy mandating the dismemberment. Are you going to defend WWE when they do a show paid by the Cartel de Sinaloa too? They haven't done propaganda videos, so what? we all know why they stopped, they took heat and asked not to do them, they still promote all that shit on social media and have mansoor or whatever his name is showcased all over the place, it's still WWE sucking up for that sweet sweet Saudi money.

you're trying to judge people's lack of knowledge as hypocrisy. Do you think the WWE fanbase know's about Ghana's history with LGBT rights? Hell, i don't even think WWE knows about them either. since you're in a quest against hypocrisy against anything WWE, then when can also talk about the #womensrevolution, Be-A-Star, and all that crap that WWE does for their shameless PR.
Sorry if this is hard to read, but I responded to things as they came to me rather than going chronologically as they appear in your post:


People have called WWE out over their babyfaces not conforming to B.A. Star guidelines pretty much every time it has happened since the program first started.

PR does not necessarily equal hypocrisy. The Divas’/Women’s R/Evolution is PR, yes. But that does not change the fact that it has done a net positive for women’s wrestling in WWE. The portrayal of the women has changed, and they do get more opportunities now. It is indisputable that they now get more time for their matches and get to occasionally main event PPVs. No matter how selfish WWE’s motivations have been or how clumsy their handling of the individual characters and storylines has been (the exact same clumsiness we have seen with the men over the past 10-15 years), the net result of this has been a positive change in this area.

You want to say that “WWE is for kids?” Okay. Those kids don’t know that the Saudis do any of this stuff so they won’t possibly see WWE going to Saudi Arabia as any sort of approval of these things.
If you want to argue that WWE shouldn’t go to Saudi Arabia because of the Khoshoggi killing then that’s fine. I agree with that stance (though I will point out that I don’t hear too much complaining about WWE- or WWN, or OWE, for that matter going to China). But then the case you are making should have nothing to do with the money, and that seems to be what everyone is fixated on. The outrage would not be nearly as large if WWE was getting paid $5,000 per show, even though that doesn’t change the morality of the situation one iota. If you are going to base your objection to the show on moral principle, then you should object to the show equally as much if they WWE were getting paid some much smaller amount, or even if WWE publicly pledged to donate all $10 million to charity.


Yes, WWE doesn’t often let people dictate who will or won’t be on a show, but WWE doesn’t really do sold shows other than these, either, because very few people in the world can afford to pay them enough to make it worth their while.

You’ve clearly misunderstood my point about visas and permits and sales tax. How much money WWE makes on the show is irrelevant. What matters is that when WWE goes to Japan, or to an state with anti-trans bathroom laws or whatever, the act of WWE holding a show there puts money in the government’s pocket via permits and sales tax on WWE merch, etc. that the government would not have otherwise gotten. With the case of the Saudi shows, the opposite is happening. Because these are sold shows bought by the Saudi government, the anti-LGBT government is losing a tremendous amount of money with every show WWE puts on, and they’re not actually getting anything in return because WWE doesn’t do their propaganda videos anymore. And WWE not doing those videos anymore- or even avoiding mentioning Saudi Arabia on TV is a clear response to the Khoshoggi killing. From that point on the Saudis are basically getting swindled out of $10 million.




Ignorance is not an excuse. You wouldn’t have known about the thirteen-year-old if you hadn’t had the inclination to do some research, would you? So why shouldn’t the masses be expected to put some research in when they are protesting something to make sure that they’re being consistent in their moral outrage? “This thing I just learned about over here is terrible and I will speak up to demand that it stop, but I don’t actually care enough about it to check out if it is happening anywhere else so I can denounce it there, too” is not the attitude of someone who actually gives a sh*t about a cause.
Before I sat down to write this article I was unsure about the exact status of same-sex rights in all three of the countries I mentioned. I thought it was legal in Ireland but was unsure because it’s a heavily Catholic country (and one where Catholic identity has often been tied to politics, as opposed to the Protestant British) and I believe it only recently legalized abortion. Ghana I assumed it probably at the very least wasn’t recognized in, simply because African countries are not exactly known for their friendliness towards LGBT people. I was actually shocked when I found out same-sex marriage wasn’t legal in Japan. But I did the five minutes of research it took me to answer these questions.
And as I said in the article, I fully acknowledge that simply not recognizing same-sex marriage and even imprisoning people for being gay is not as bad as killing them for it, but it’s still bad. Go up to the next LGBT person you see and tell them that while you’re not going to pass laws making what they do illegal, you’re also not going to recognize their ability to enter into a state-sanctioned union with the person they love, and see how they respond. Just because you’re not throwing them in jail or killing them doesn’t mean the law of the land isn’t discriminating against them.

Why WWE stopped is irrelevant. Most people would steal things from stores or steal money from a bank if they were certain they wouldn’t get caught. The reason they don’t steal things is because they’re afraid of the consequences of getting caught. Why else would video/music piracy be so big? Changing your behavior because you’re afraid of the consequences does not mean you should be treated any differently from someone who changes his/her behavior for more altruistic reasons. If people still boycotted a company’s products after that company met the boycotters’ demands, why would any company ever give in to a boycott?

WWE is taking money from the government, not MBS’ private stash, so matter how many terrible things MBS has had done, this is not the same as your cartel example (or a PRIDE show for the Yakuza or whatever). But either way, while WWE is taking that money, they are not putting on a private show for the prince. As this show illustrated, there are WWE fans in Saudi Arabia who get to go to and enjoy these shows of their own free will (as opposed to New Japan’s North Korea show in 1995).

And Mansour has not been “all over the place.” He has barely been on TV. Did they put him over because he was the hometown guy? Of course. But that’s been common practice throughout wrestling history. And it’s not like Mansour is some pal of the prince who they only put on the show to make him happy. He might have been born in Saudi Arabia, but he was a NorCal indy worker for years before signing in WWE.


I’m not telling people not to object to these shows. All I’m saying is that if you’re going to object to these shows, be morally consistent with why you are objecting to them. If it’s not about the money then stop talking about the money and only talk about the moral issues. But if the amount of money is what is bothering you, then I think you are overlooking some key points about the real-world outcomes of the situation.
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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by cero2k » Jun 12th, '19, 11:07

working my way through the last reply, but I found this video and I swear, scouts's honor, that I hadn't seen it til just now


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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by NWK2000 » Jun 12th, '19, 12:20

My thinking on it is if there's no travel ban or embargo on doing business with SA, then it's WWE right to do business with whoever they chose.
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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by cero2k » Jun 12th, '19, 13:12

NWK2000 wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 12:20
My thinking on it is if there's no travel ban or embargo on doing business with SA, then it's WWE right to do business with whoever they chose.
https://giphy.com/gifs/wwe-reaction-wre ... zCEE2339OS
yeah, no shit, this isn't about having the right or not, it's an ethical discussion. Like I said to red, I would assume you'll support the WWE/Cartel or WWE/ISIS or WWE/Alt-Right (wait, they already are) collaborations, because, they do, technically, have the right to deal with them too

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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 12th, '19, 14:12

cero2k wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 13:12
NWK2000 wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 12:20
My thinking on it is if there's no travel ban or embargo on doing business with SA, then it's WWE right to do business with whoever they chose.
https://giphy.com/gifs/wwe-reaction-wre ... zCEE2339OS
yeah, no shit, this isn't about having the right or not, it's an ethical discussion. Like I said to red, I would assume you'll support the WWE/Cartel or WWE/ISIS or WWE/Alt-Right (wait, they already are) collaborations, because, they do, technically, have the right to deal with them too
ISIS and the Cartels are actually proscribed groups, so you can't do them.

My point has nothing to do with who you'll do a show for. My point is that in terms of real-world effects on people's lives, I think this WWE-Saudi deal does more good than harm because it funnels an insane amount of money away from systems that enforce the many objectionable things about the Saudi/Wahhabi society (and that if your objection to the shows are moral, you should be consistent in your morality and apply similar scrutiny to other places WWE goes).
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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by NWK2000 » Jun 12th, '19, 14:33

cero2k wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 13:12
NWK2000 wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 12:20
My thinking on it is if there's no travel ban or embargo on doing business with SA, then it's WWE right to do business with whoever they chose.
https://giphy.com/gifs/wwe-reaction-wre ... zCEE2339OS
yeah, no shit, this isn't about having the right or not, it's an ethical discussion. Like I said to red, I would assume you'll support the WWE/Cartel or WWE/ISIS or WWE/Alt-Right (wait, they already are) collaborations, because, they do, technically, have the right to deal with them too
As Red said the actilons of the Saudi Arabian government are reprehensible. Unfortunately people choose incorrectly more often than not at the crossroads of morality and profit. That's just a shitty part of the reality we live in . The only moral skew we can control is our own individual one and in the way that we vote. That said i absolutely would support a petition on a Saudi Arabia embargo But as of right now WWE is just making a profit where a profit is to be made as is the aim of anyone attempting to make money
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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by cero2k » Jun 12th, '19, 14:37

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 14:12


ISIS and the Cartels are actually proscribed groups, so you can't do them.

My point has nothing to do with who you'll do a show for. My point is that in terms of real-world effects on people's lives, I think this WWE-Saudi deal does more good than harm because it funnels an insane amount of money away from systems that enforce the many objectionable things about the Saudi/Wahhabi society (and that if your objection to the shows are moral, you should be consistent in your morality and apply similar scrutiny to other places WWE goes).
You don't actually work with the 'cartel' , just the people involved and you can't properly pinpoint them in order stop WWE from getting paid for a show by such and such.

that insane amount of money is pocket change for the Saudi prince, and propaganda to divert bad attention towards manufactured truths DOES affect people's lives.

Your argument that people should talk shit about all of WWE's dealings is good and proper, and I support it, FUCK WWE regardless where they go. But the truth is that the Saudi family is the ONLY one paying WWE for the propaganda. the state of Georgia doesn't pay WWE to tell people, 'hey! aborting sucks!'

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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by cero2k » Jun 12th, '19, 14:50

NWK2000 wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 14:33

As Red said the actilons of the Saudi Arabian government are reprehensible. Unfortunately people choose incorrectly more often than not at the crossroads of morality and profit. That's just a shitty part of the reality we live in . The only moral skew we can control is our own individual one and in the way that we vote. That said i absolutely would support a petition on a Saudi Arabia embargo But as of right now WWE is just making a profit where a profit is to be made as is the aim of anyone attempting to make money
obviously Greed > Morality when it comes to the McMahons. I understand why they do it, but I don't excuse it just because 'the point of a company is to make money'. Endeavor pulled out costing them millions of dollars. You're right that the moral skew we can control is our own individual one and whether we decide to support and give our money AND time to companies that are killing people, destroying the environment, and profiting out of harm. Like in 1984, Ignorance is Bliss and companies profit from it, and we can't fully blame those ignorant people for the hypocrisy of bashing one and not the other, but if even one of them falls, it's a victory for humanity.

Evil is not for debate and WWE is taking blood money to spread manufactured propaganda. There's no other way about it

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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 12th, '19, 15:12

cero2k wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 14:37
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 14:12


ISIS and the Cartels are actually proscribed groups, so you can't do them.

My point has nothing to do with who you'll do a show for. My point is that in terms of real-world effects on people's lives, I think this WWE-Saudi deal does more good than harm because it funnels an insane amount of money away from systems that enforce the many objectionable things about the Saudi/Wahhabi society (and that if your objection to the shows are moral, you should be consistent in your morality and apply similar scrutiny to other places WWE goes).
You don't actually work with the 'cartel' , just the people involved and you can't properly pinpoint them in order stop WWE from getting paid for a show by such and such.

that insane amount of money is pocket change for the Saudi prince, and propaganda to divert bad attention towards manufactured truths DOES affect people's lives.

Your argument that people should talk shit about all of WWE's dealings is good and proper, and I support it, FUCK WWE regardless where they go. But the truth is that the Saudi family is the ONLY one paying WWE for the propaganda. the state of Georgia doesn't pay WWE to tell people, 'hey! aborting sucks!'
But WWE isn't actually giving them that propaganda, both through choices WWE has made on their own to try to minimize attention to the deal (why they are doing this is not relevant to the outcome) and because WWE was never really in much of a position to provide that propaganda in the first place because they have very little influence over the beliefs of their fanbase (as pertains to anything outside of their own industry). WWE is great at manipulating their own history to people who don't know any better. They're not good at manipulating people's beliefs about other things.

I'm not rejecting the moral argument at all. I'm just saying that people keep bringing up the money, but when you look at the actual effects of what happens due to this deal, it's a lot more positive than negative.

While $10 million might be pocket change to the Saudi royal family, but it is a very significant amount in terms of the costs of running a justice and educational system.
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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by NWK2000 » Jun 12th, '19, 15:18

cero2k wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 14:50
but if even one of them falls, it's a victory for humanity.

Evil is not for debate and WWE is taking blood money to spread manufactured propaganda. There's no other way about it
Agreed, but people will operate as is most beneficial for as long as they can get away with it, and even then corporate types always find loopholes. It isn't ideal, but this era of social media has sapped me of the emotional energy to get pissed every time a corporation does something skeevy. I understand that that's a character flaw, and I envy people with the energy for justice required to tackle concepts that big. I've found it best for my mental health to focus on my own morality, how I treat people in my community and resigning myself to the flaws in capitalism and the lack of corporate morality.
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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by cero2k » Jun 12th, '19, 15:32

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 15:12

But WWE isn't actually giving them that propaganda, both through choices WWE has made on their own to try to minimize attention to the deal (why they are doing this is not relevant to the outcome) and because WWE was never really in much of a position to provide that propaganda in the first place because they have very little influence over the beliefs of their fanbase (as pertains to anything outside of their own industry). WWE is great at manipulating their own history to people who don't know any better. They're not good at manipulating people's beliefs about other things.

I'm not rejecting the moral argument at all. I'm just saying that people keep bringing up the money, but when you look at the actual effects of what happens due to this deal, it's a lot more positive than negative.

While $10 million might be pocket change to the Saudi royal family, but it is a very significant amount in terms of the costs of running a justice and educational system.
Of course they give them propaganda. Propaganda doesn't end with those little videos from the first show. They keep putting their people along with the Saudi family, social media from both the company and most wrestlers are all 'look how awesome it is over here', 'we're having a great time', commentary talks about how awesome the place is, how the saudi family is awesome. They don't have to show a video to spread the news that Saudi is awesome, and if people are ignorant of what happens around the world, then they'll just see an awesome city and awesome luxuries.

if they don't mention it on live shows is because everyone sees beyond their circus and would boo them, so you avoid the boos as much as you can, but they still go and do the show and bombard social media and the shows themselves with that propaganda.

It doesn't take that much money to run a justice system when the fear is already there and people are already brainwashed. $10 million is these people's weekend allowance to eat and have fun.

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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by cero2k » Jun 12th, '19, 15:44

NWK2000 wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 15:18
cero2k wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 14:50
but if even one of them falls, it's a victory for humanity.

Evil is not for debate and WWE is taking blood money to spread manufactured propaganda. There's no other way about it
Agreed, but people will operate as is most beneficial for as long as they can get away with it, and even then corporate types always find loopholes. It isn't ideal, but this era of social media has sapped me of the emotional energy to get pissed every time a corporation does something skeevy. I understand that that's a character flaw, and I envy people with the energy for justice required to tackle concepts that big. I've found it best for my mental health to focus on my own morality, how I treat people in my community and resigning myself to the flaws in capitalism and the lack of corporate morality.
it's not about taking on a whole company, but like I said, it's in us to stop supporting those greedy companies that are destroying the world. If there is a lack of energy to fight against the man, then it's about spreading that moral belief to our immediate communities, and not just justify loopholes. It doesn't take much to stop buying NIKE because they have child labor, it doesn't take much to stop eating animal products if the agricultural industry is leaving the biggest carbon footprint in the world. If you think WWE is led by greed and deal with people doing wrong and profits out of people's bodies, you don't have to shout at them, just don't give them your money and tell your friends, I stopped watching because I don't support the business they conduct. I don't blame you for not knowing about the little skeevy things WWE does, but Saudi's actions are not exactly hush hush either.

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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 12th, '19, 22:39

cero2k wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 15:32
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 15:12

But WWE isn't actually giving them that propaganda, both through choices WWE has made on their own to try to minimize attention to the deal (why they are doing this is not relevant to the outcome) and because WWE was never really in much of a position to provide that propaganda in the first place because they have very little influence over the beliefs of their fanbase (as pertains to anything outside of their own industry). WWE is great at manipulating their own history to people who don't know any better. They're not good at manipulating people's beliefs about other things.

I'm not rejecting the moral argument at all. I'm just saying that people keep bringing up the money, but when you look at the actual effects of what happens due to this deal, it's a lot more positive than negative.

While $10 million might be pocket change to the Saudi royal family, but it is a very significant amount in terms of the costs of running a justice and educational system.
Of course they give them propaganda. Propaganda doesn't end with those little videos from the first show. They keep putting their people along with the Saudi family, social media from both the company and most wrestlers are all 'look how awesome it is over here', 'we're having a great time', commentary talks about how awesome the place is, how the saudi family is awesome. They don't have to show a video to spread the news that Saudi is awesome, and if people are ignorant of what happens around the world, then they'll just see an awesome city and awesome luxuries.

if they don't mention it on live shows is because everyone sees beyond their circus and would boo them, so you avoid the boos as much as you can, but they still go and do the show and bombard social media and the shows themselves with that propaganda.

Propaganda only matters if people buy it, and I highly doubt that most people in the world will see a WWE wrestler's Twitter and say "Jeddah looks like a great place to go for my next vacation!" I think the majority of people know that Saudi Arabia is a Wahhabi state. They might not know the name, but they know it's a very strict Sharia-based state where women have no rights and thus they're not going to go there, so it doesn't matter.
cero2k wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 15:32
It doesn't take that much money to run a justice system when the fear is already there and people are already brainwashed. $10 million is these people's weekend allowance to eat and have fun.
That $10 million dollars is a hell of a lot fewer policeman, teachers, jailers, and judges expediting their bullsh*t system. Or if you want to look at it a different way, it's a lot less weapons to carelessly kill Yemeni civilians with when they're trying to kill terrorists.
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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by cero2k » Jun 13th, '19, 09:56

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 22:39

Propaganda only matters if people buy it, and I highly doubt that most people in the world will see a WWE wrestler's Twitter and say "Jeddah looks like a great place to go for my next vacation!" I think the majority of people know that Saudi Arabia is a Wahhabi state. They might not know the name, but they know it's a very strict Sharia-based state where women have no rights and thus they're not going to go there, so it doesn't matter.
they're not trying to get tourism, they're trying to show off to rich people who could invest there, they're trying to divert attention of the bad stuff, they're trying to come off as progressive to the world. if you tell me it's not gonna work, sure, they're not the smartest cookie in the jar.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 22:39
That $10 million dollars is a hell of a lot fewer policeman, teachers, jailers, and judges expediting their bullsh*t system. Or if you want to look at it a different way, it's a lot less weapons to carelessly kill Yemeni civilians with when they're trying to kill terrorists.
You're kinda missing the point that this isn't exactly hurting them, this is a calculated propaganda expense to them. WWE is not a hero for taking money away from the villains. I don't think they need to hire more policemen, jailers, and judges if it's the same population that turns you in and a lot of people get sentenced to death anyway.

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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 13th, '19, 11:41

cero2k wrote:
Jun 13th, '19, 09:56
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 22:39

Propaganda only matters if people buy it, and I highly doubt that most people in the world will see a WWE wrestler's Twitter and say "Jeddah looks like a great place to go for my next vacation!" I think the majority of people know that Saudi Arabia is a Wahhabi state. They might not know the name, but they know it's a very strict Sharia-based state where women have no rights and thus they're not going to go there, so it doesn't matter.
they're not trying to get tourism, they're trying to show off to rich people who could invest there, they're trying to divert attention of the bad stuff, they're trying to come off as progressive to the world. if you tell me it's not gonna work, sure, they're not the smartest cookie in the jar.
The rich people know what's going on, and they're not paying attention to WWE wrestlers' Twitter accounts.
cero2k wrote:
Jun 13th, '19, 09:56
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 12th, '19, 22:39
That $10 million dollars is a hell of a lot fewer policeman, teachers, jailers, and judges expediting their bullsh*t system. Or if you want to look at it a different way, it's a lot less weapons to carelessly kill Yemeni civilians with when they're trying to kill terrorists.
You're kinda missing the point that this isn't exactly hurting them, this is a calculated propaganda expense to them. WWE is not a hero for taking money away from the villains. I don't think they need to hire more policemen, jailers, and judges if it's the same population that turns you in and a lot of people get sentenced to death anyway.
I'm not saying WWE is hero. I'm saying the net effects of this are positive because they propaganda has no effect and the money doesn't get spent on horrible things.

And I don't think it's people's neighbors turning them in in Saudi Arabia. It's an absolute monarchy with a strong religious influence, but it's not a police state that relies on people informing each other.
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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by cero2k » Jun 13th, '19, 12:17

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 13th, '19, 11:41
I'm not saying WWE is hero. I'm saying the net effects of this are positive because they propaganda has no effect and the money doesn't get spent on horrible things.

And I don't think it's people's neighbors turning them in in Saudi Arabia. It's an absolute monarchy with a strong religious influence, but it's not a police state that relies on people informing each other.
it be far more positive if the WWE would make a stand along other big companies to show what type of people the saudi royal family are and pressure their boy Trump to stop making weapons deals with them. If WWE announces today that ALL their SA earned money will go into charity to support immigration, actual women's rights, or the such, then I'll completely turn around and agree with you, but they're just pocketing the money and will likely give Trump a big endorsement and funding come 2020

it may not be a full on police state, but a lot of things are based on religion and it only takes the older conservatives to fuck everything up. that includes doctors, teachers, anyone in the government, or anyone looking for influence. This is pretty much the same as 70's post-revolution Iran, but with better social media

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Re: Why I Think the Criticism of WWE's Deal with Saudi Arabia Falls Short

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 13th, '19, 21:18

cero2k wrote:
Jun 13th, '19, 12:17
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 13th, '19, 11:41
I'm not saying WWE is hero. I'm saying the net effects of this are positive because they propaganda has no effect and the money doesn't get spent on horrible things.

And I don't think it's people's neighbors turning them in in Saudi Arabia. It's an absolute monarchy with a strong religious influence, but it's not a police state that relies on people informing each other.
it be far more positive if the WWE would make a stand along other big companies to show what type of people the saudi royal family are and pressure their boy Trump to stop making weapons deals with them. If WWE announces today that ALL their SA earned money will go into charity to support immigration, actual women's rights, or the such, then I'll completely turn around and agree with you, but they're just pocketing the money and will likely give Trump a big endorsement and funding come 2020
It's not a Trump thing. Every American administration has been friendly with the Saudis out of geopolitical necessity. Those weapons we give the Saudis go to them fighting proxy wars with Iran, who is the leading funder of international terrorism and the leading destabilizing force in the Middle East, as well as, (through Hezbollah) a leading opioid trafficker.

cero2k wrote:
Jun 13th, '19, 12:17
it may not be a full on police state, but a lot of things are based on religion and it only takes the older conservatives to fuck everything up. that includes doctors, teachers, anyone in the government, or anyone looking for influence. This is pretty much the same as 70's post-revolution Iran, but with better social media
Dude... Iran (and it's no different today than back then other than less support from the people) has MUCH better PR than the Saudis. The people who work with the Saudis are corporations who think they can make money selling them things, and oil companies. They don't like the Saudi; they're just willing to deal with them for the money. Iran has somehow conned leftists around the world into thinking they're on the same side just because neither of them likes American/British foreign policy.
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