Kenny Omega Talks To Jim Ross about WWE Return

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Bob-O
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Re: Kenny Omega Talks To Jim Ross about WWE Return

Post by Bob-O » Jul 8th, '18, 17:47

Big Red Machine wrote: Jul 7th, '18, 19:54 The point is that Punk was prepared to walk due to not liking working under WWE's creative constraints. Cody did. So too would the Bucks and Omega be willing to do so. Yes, WWE can buy them for however long the contract would be (and my guess would be that these guys would be smart enough to insist on some sort of one-year deal at first), but if they decide they don't like then no amount of money will bring them back.
Oh, well yeah! If you offer me $2 million dollars to kick me in the balls every day for a year, I'm going to take that deal, but I don't think anyone expects me to renew the contract.

I don't think anyone expects guys like The Bucks or Omega to be WWE "lifers", they might not even make it the duration of the contract (looking at you, Austin Aries...), but to truly believe that WWE doesn't have the resources or the guts to pull the trigger on deals that'd get anyone they wanted in the door is underestimating just how big they really are.
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Re: Kenny Omega Talks To Jim Ross about WWE Return

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 8th, '18, 19:13

Bob-O wrote: Jul 8th, '18, 17:47
Big Red Machine wrote: Jul 7th, '18, 19:54 The point is that Punk was prepared to walk due to not liking working under WWE's creative constraints. Cody did. So too would the Bucks and Omega be willing to do so. Yes, WWE can buy them for however long the contract would be (and my guess would be that these guys would be smart enough to insist on some sort of one-year deal at first), but if they decide they don't like then no amount of money will bring them back.
Oh, well yeah! If you offer me $2 million dollars to kick me in the balls every day for a year, I'm going to take that deal, but I don't think anyone expects me to renew the contract.

I don't think anyone expects guys like The Bucks or Omega to be WWE "lifers", they might not even make it the duration of the contract (looking at you, Austin Aries...), but to truly believe that WWE doesn't have the resources or the guts to pull the trigger on deals that'd get anyone they wanted in the door is underestimating just how big they really are.
The difference is that the contract won't say "in exchange for $2 million, I get to kick you in the balls every day." It'd be a regular contract but for a shorter term to see how they treat them- i.e. whether Vince and pals are actually willing to do right by them.

It's not underestimating Vince's money. It's thinking that people are willing to accept NJPW money + ROH money + indy superstar merch money + creative freedom instead of WWE money if they value their creative freedom enough.
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Re: Kenny Omega Talks To Jim Ross about WWE Return

Post by cero2k » Jul 9th, '18, 16:50

Big Red Machine wrote: Jul 8th, '18, 19:13
It's not underestimating Vince's money. It's thinking that people are willing to accept NJPW money + ROH money + indy superstar merch money + creative freedom instead of WWE money if they value their creative freedom enough.
it's not impossible to believe that people would be willing to, but we've already seen two HUGE guys go to WWE in Styles and Nakamura come in for arguably cheaper deals than a Cena or Lesnar, that's the level of superstar you need to reach and even they were cheaply bought. As soon as Omega and The Bucks lose their respective titles, you can put a big chunk of money in the table and tell them that they have nothing else to prove in NJPW, it's time to win some WWE titles. I don't think it's that hard to talk these guys into joining.

The only people that I think are untouchable in wrestling are Punk and Okada, and I think Okada has a price. I even believe that Punk would if Hunter wasn't the successor to Vince, because I think Punk would return for Vince.
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Re: Kenny Omega Talks To Jim Ross about WWE Return

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 9th, '18, 21:15

cero2k wrote: Jul 9th, '18, 16:50
Big Red Machine wrote: Jul 8th, '18, 19:13
It's not underestimating Vince's money. It's thinking that people are willing to accept NJPW money + ROH money + indy superstar merch money + creative freedom instead of WWE money if they value their creative freedom enough.
it's not impossible to believe that people would be willing to, but we've already seen two HUGE guys go to WWE in Styles and Nakamura come in for arguably cheaper deals than a Cena or Lesnar, that's the level of superstar you need to reach and even they were cheaply bought. As soon as Omega and The Bucks lose their respective titles, you can put a big chunk of money in the table and tell them that they have nothing else to prove in NJPW, it's time to win some WWE titles. I don't think it's that hard to talk these guys into joining.

The only people that I think are untouchable in wrestling are Punk and Okada, and I think Okada has a price. I even believe that Punk would if Hunter wasn't the successor to Vince, because I think Punk would return for Vince.
What you're missing is that those jumps changed how New Japan plays the game, too. Since then they've been a lot more careful about ensuring that they can be competitive. Those signings were also well before the indy boom and- at least for certain people- a boom in ROH contract values, too.
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Re: Kenny Omega Talks To Jim Ross about WWE Return

Post by cero2k » Jul 10th, '18, 09:36

Big Red Machine wrote: Jul 9th, '18, 21:15

What you're missing is that those jumps changed how New Japan plays the game, too. Since then they've been a lot more careful about ensuring that they can be competitive. Those signings were also well before the indy boom and- at least for certain people- a boom in ROH contract values, too.
a consequence of WWE's own talent acquisition style to be more careful with contracts, especially with your top guys, but you still can't keep a guy from quitting if WWE offers them the sky. Actually this is something that i'm surprised we are not seeing more often (well, we kinda are with guys going for EVOLVE over ROH for instance), with tons of guys unwilling to sign to multi-year contracts, or at least easy to get out contracts, in order to be free for WWE if Hunter calls.


I'd argue that those signings happened in the middle of the boom, or at least a year in, otherwise they wouldn't had been big signings, at that point NXT was already super strong, ROH had already joined Sinclair, UK guys started coming to the US, PWG, EVOLVE, CHIKARA were making tons of noise.
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Re: Kenny Omega Talks To Jim Ross about WWE Return

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 10th, '18, 14:25

cero2k wrote: Jul 10th, '18, 09:36
Big Red Machine wrote: Jul 9th, '18, 21:15

What you're missing is that those jumps changed how New Japan plays the game, too. Since then they've been a lot more careful about ensuring that they can be competitive. Those signings were also well before the indy boom and- at least for certain people- a boom in ROH contract values, too.
a consequence of WWE's own talent acquisition style to be more careful with contracts, especially with your top guys, but you still can't keep a guy from quitting if WWE offers them the sky. Actually this is something that i'm surprised we are not seeing more often (well, we kinda are with guys going for EVOLVE over ROH for instance), with tons of guys unwilling to sign to multi-year contracts, or at least easy to get out contracts, in order to be free for WWE if Hunter calls.
It's absolutely a consequence of WWE being willing to offer more money, but it just means that ROH/NJPW are willing to respond with more money. You can't stop someone from going to WWE if all that talent is interested in is the financial security, but if they want a combination of money and freedom, then you can offer them freedom that WWE won't, and then it's up to the talent to make the decision.
The EVOLVE over ROH thing wouldn't be as big of an issue as it is if 1) Sinclair hadn't tried to stop guys from going to WWE through tampering claims. A lot of the guys leaving ROH because they have WWE deals on the table (War Machine would be an example of guys who left ROH without going to EVOLVE) were just doing so for a buffer so Sinclair couldn't pull the same stuff on them they pulled on O'Reilly and Dijak.
Another, more major issue in the "guys going to EVOLVE over ROH" thing is the booking. Gabe makes people stars; Delirious does not. See the difference between that Keith Lee did after leaving ROH as compared to what happened with Shane Taylor since Lee left ROH. Is it any wonder that guys like Rush, Dijak, Cedric, ACH, thought their careers were better off with Gabe (or Danny Davis, or whoever) than with Delirious? If a guy like Fred Yehi or Ethan Page is leaving WWN but not going to WWE, you'd expect them to go to ROH, but absolutely no one (at least any male wrestler, or female wrestler of note) who has left WWN has gone to ROH.
cero2k wrote: Jul 10th, '18, 09:36 I'd argue that those signings happened in the middle of the boom, or at least a year in, otherwise they wouldn't had been big signings, at that point NXT was already super strong, ROH had already joined Sinclair, UK guys started coming to the US, PWG, EVOLVE, CHIKARA were making tons of noise.
I'm dating the boom to about 2015, or so, but either way, you're proving my point. The boom means that ROH is paying more than they used to, and a bunch of other smaller indies (like Beyond and AAW and whoever else) are probably paying more than they used to. Guys are being able to make a living on the indies much more easily now than they were before.
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Re: Kenny Omega Talks To Jim Ross about WWE Return

Post by cero2k » Jul 10th, '18, 15:32

Big Red Machine wrote: Jul 10th, '18, 14:25 It's absolutely a consequence of WWE being willing to offer more money, but it just means that ROH/NJPW are willing to respond with more money. You can't stop someone from going to WWE if all that talent is interested in is the financial security, but if they want a combination of money and freedom, then you can offer them freedom that WWE won't, and then it's up to the talent to make the decision.
ROH and NJPW are willing to respond with more money for sure, but they can only reach WWE's knees, there is no wrestling bidding war that WWE couldn't win. And when it comes to 'creative freedom', one would need to be a really really really special person to not give in to money now a days, and if you're a top guy, you don't need to give in thaat much, just change from King of Strong Style to 'Rockstar' and that's about it

Big Red Machine wrote: Jul 10th, '18, 14:25I'm dating the boom to about 2015, or so, but either way, you're proving my point. The boom means that ROH is paying more than they used to, and a bunch of other smaller indies (like Beyond and AAW and whoever else) are probably paying more than they used to. Guys are being able to make a living on the indies much more easily now than they were before.
i don't think anyone is disagreeing that wrestlers can make a living in the indies, but that is just 'a living', WWE is a whole other 3 levels above.
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Re: Kenny Omega Talks To Jim Ross about WWE Return

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 10th, '18, 19:18

cero2k wrote: Jul 10th, '18, 15:32
Big Red Machine wrote: Jul 10th, '18, 14:25 It's absolutely a consequence of WWE being willing to offer more money, but it just means that ROH/NJPW are willing to respond with more money. You can't stop someone from going to WWE if all that talent is interested in is the financial security, but if they want a combination of money and freedom, then you can offer them freedom that WWE won't, and then it's up to the talent to make the decision.
ROH and NJPW are willing to respond with more money for sure, but they can only reach WWE's knees, there is no wrestling bidding war that WWE couldn't win. And when it comes to 'creative freedom', one would need to be a really really really special person to not give in to money now a days, and if you're a top guy, you don't need to give in thaat much, just change from King of Strong Style to 'Rockstar' and that's about it

Big Red Machine wrote: Jul 10th, '18, 14:25I'm dating the boom to about 2015, or so, but either way, you're proving my point. The boom means that ROH is paying more than they used to, and a bunch of other smaller indies (like Beyond and AAW and whoever else) are probably paying more than they used to. Guys are being able to make a living on the indies much more easily now than they were before.
i don't think anyone is disagreeing that wrestlers can make a living in the indies, but that is just 'a living', WWE is a whole other 3 levels above.
Exactly. But the fact that it is possible to make a living without going to WWE means that people who do value that freedom- either creative freedom, or people like The Briscoes who like being able to have another business to put time into now have an option to be able to say "no" to WWE while still making a living as professional wrestlers.
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Re: Kenny Omega Talks To Jim Ross about WWE Return

Post by cero2k » Jul 11th, '18, 10:18

Big Red Machine wrote: Jul 10th, '18, 19:18

Exactly. But the fact that it is possible to make a living without going to WWE means that people who do value that freedom- either creative freedom, or people like The Briscoes who like being able to have another business to put time into now have an option to be able to say "no" to WWE while still making a living as professional wrestlers.
yeah, like i said, i don't think that anyone is debating that, but WWE still being able to make an strong offer to everyone doesn't change. Briscoes like their side busines? WWE could make an offer for that business.

Also, if I remember correctly, Briscoes had a tryout and were rejected by WWE when Jay's homophobic remarks came out to light. I'm not so sure it was the Briscoes doing the rejection.
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Re: Kenny Omega Talks To Jim Ross about WWE Return

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 11th, '18, 11:50

cero2k wrote: Jul 11th, '18, 10:18
Big Red Machine wrote: Jul 10th, '18, 19:18

Exactly. But the fact that it is possible to make a living without going to WWE means that people who do value that freedom- either creative freedom, or people like The Briscoes who like being able to have another business to put time into now have an option to be able to say "no" to WWE while still making a living as professional wrestlers.
yeah, like i said, i don't think that anyone is debating that, but WWE still being able to make an strong offer to everyone doesn't change. Briscoes like their side busines? WWE could make an offer for that business.

Also, if I remember correctly, Briscoes had a tryout and were rejected by WWE when Jay's homophobic remarks came out to light. I'm not so sure it was the Briscoes doing the rejection.
Everything said it was The Briscoes that turned WWE down. Jay's homophobic comment was back before WWE paid any attention to that sort of thing. The fact that protesters bought tickets to an ROH show because of it was actually seen as a "holy crap, we didn't realize ROH was this notable" moment. By all accounts, Jay is firmly in the Tim Hardaway reformed homophobe camp.
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