Impact Wrestling & The IWGP Conception

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Impact Wrestling & The IWGP Conception

Post by cero2k » Jun 6th, '18, 17:54

Found this article talking about what seems to be a new working thing between Impact and the NJPW group of promotions

http://lastwordonprowrestling.com/2018/ ... onception/

Impact Wrestling And The IWGP Conception
By Jamie Greer (Editor) - June 5, 2018


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Re: Impact Wrestling & The IWGP Conception

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 6th, '18, 19:20

Aside from getting some details wrong (for example, ROH-contracted talent has been used a lot less frequent in WCPW/Defiant since the name change in December), I think this article misunderstands how these sorts of interactions work. It seems to think that if you are part of one circle you can't be part of another, and that if one promotion in a circle works with people in a different circle, all of them do, which just isn't true. The most obvious example of this not being true is actually WCPW's Pro Wrestling World Cup. They listed the participation of NJPW wrestlers as proof of WCPW being part of the NJPW/ROH/CMLL/RevPro group... but that tournament also had guys from AAA/LU (Angelico. also maybe Rey, Penta, and others... although whoever they were working for at the time clearly wasn't CMLL), and Joseph Conners, who they publicly thanked WWE for letting them use.

The right way to look at this is that these alliances are a series of overlapping circles, with very few hard boundaries. The hard boundaries that do exist are all either due to exclusive contracts (ROH in the USA & Ontario, whatever deals TNA has, WWE contracts), and the "old grudge" issues like CMLL-friendly promotions not using AAA guys and vice/versa. A lot of the reason for the overlap in guys between OTT and RevPro is that they tend to run the same weekend, and thus the guy tends to already be around anyway (and the promotions are probably happy to split the trans costs, while the wrestler is happy to work a second show that weekend). You probably see a lot of overlap between PROGRESS fly-ins and weekends RevPro or OTT or running, too. It's not "ROH guys" who have been working in Europe a lot but rather the group of ROH guys that seem to like going all around the world: Cody, the Bucks, Daniels, Lethal, Cole when he was there, etc.
TNA working with New Japan is all because Callis is in charge of TNA and he works for New Japan so they know he won't f*ck things up. ROH and TNA being more willing to work together is probably a lot more related to TNA liking Aries' "belt collector" gimmick, ROH having an interest in Aries, and TNA both of them thinking it will get attention. That does not mean that anything is happening between TNA and CMLL or AAA and RevPro. Just because some ROH guys work wXw on occasion doesn't mean that they are part of the ROH/CMLL/NJPW/RevPro group, and just because wXw and PROGRESS are working together closely does not mean that wXw is now WWE-aligned. Just like Zack working for NJPW and EVOLVE at the same time never meant that ROH and EVOLVE were working together, never mind NJPW and WWE.
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Re: Impact Wrestling & The IWGP Conception

Post by cero2k » Jun 6th, '18, 19:52

you're not wrong, but i think you took it slightly too black or white.
TNA working with New Japan is all because Callis is in charge of TNA and he works for New Japan so they know he won't f*ck things up. ROH and TNA being more willing to work together is probably a lot more related to TNA liking Aries' "belt collector" gimmick, ROH having an interest in Aries, and TNA both of them thinking it will get attention. That does not mean that anything is happening between TNA and CMLL or AAA and RevPro. Just because some ROH guys work wXw on occasion doesn't mean that they are part of the ROH/CMLL/NJPW/RevPro group, and just because wXw and PROGRESS are working together closely does not mean that wXw is now WWE-aligned. Just like Zack working for NJPW and EVOLVE at the same time never meant that ROH and EVOLVE were working together, never mind NJPW and WWE.
be it Callis or be it whoever, that's the irrelevant part, but the fact IS that Impact has started working with a bunch of smaller companies, they started dealing with ROH again (who they would not work with after the child porn situation years back), NJPW is willing to let them use talent (who they would not allow after the IWGP Tag Titles and Okada situations).

People used to be all "OMG, WWE letting guys work in indies" that means nothing when L.A. Park is about to main event the two biggest promotions in Mexico, that's like WCW and WWF willingly letting Macho Man main event WM and Starcade.

SO yeah, they're not close circles set in stone, but the matter of the fact, we're seeing A LOT of promotions starting to share and work together, promotions that for all accounts wouldn't have done it before, and that's what the article is trying to bring up. I think promotions are realizing that the only way to survive against the WWE monopoly is to work together at least when it comes to sharing talent so that talent can earn more money.
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Re: Impact Wrestling & The IWGP Conception

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 6th, '18, 23:07

cero2k wrote:
Jun 6th, '18, 19:52
you're not wrong, but i think you took it slightly too black or white.
TNA working with New Japan is all because Callis is in charge of TNA and he works for New Japan so they know he won't f*ck things up. ROH and TNA being more willing to work together is probably a lot more related to TNA liking Aries' "belt collector" gimmick, ROH having an interest in Aries, and TNA both of them thinking it will get attention. That does not mean that anything is happening between TNA and CMLL or AAA and RevPro. Just because some ROH guys work wXw on occasion doesn't mean that they are part of the ROH/CMLL/NJPW/RevPro group, and just because wXw and PROGRESS are working together closely does not mean that wXw is now WWE-aligned. Just like Zack working for NJPW and EVOLVE at the same time never meant that ROH and EVOLVE were working together, never mind NJPW and WWE.
be it Callis or be it whoever, that's the irrelevant part, but the fact IS that Impact has started working with a bunch of smaller companies, they started dealing with ROH again (who they would not work with after the child porn situation years back), NJPW is willing to let them use talent (who they would not allow after the IWGP Tag Titles and Okada situations).
For the record:
1. It was attempting to have six with an underage boy, not child porn
2. TNA and ROH weren't "working together" at that point. The first show after it happened was At Our Best, and AJ and Punk both worked that show (Daniels was injured). What happened was after that TNA told their guys that they wouldn't use anyone who kept working for ROH, so Daniels, AJ, and Jerry Lynn chose to take the more steady TNA paycheck while Punk chose to stay in ROH, where he was a top guy, and he wasn't making much working for TNA anyway. TNA started letting guys work both again, like, nine months later. Guys were allowed to work both for a few more years, although TNA would occasionally just pull someone and say they couldn't work ROH anymore (the two confirmed ones are AJ after Time To Man Up and Joe in early 2007, hence the "Samoa Joe Farewell Tour" series that coincided with the Fifth Year Festival.
When ROH got the initial PPV deal, that's when TNA pulled the rest of their guys (at that point consisting of Daniels, Aries, Homicide, and Rave). That's also around the time when TNA decided that they want to control all of their talent's bookings so they stopped letting people book themselves out to other promotions, instead requiring the promotions to go through the TNA office, who added an (exorbitant, according to some) addition fee that they kept for themselves. The few other appearances that TNA guys made in ROH from 2008-2010 might have been done this way, but it's possible TNA just let them work for ROH. But the promotions were never "working together" in any meaningful way until this recent angle with Aries.


cero2k wrote:
Jun 6th, '18, 19:52
People used to be all "OMG, WWE letting guys work in indies" that means nothing when L.A. Park is about to main event the two biggest promotions in Mexico, that's like WCW and WWF willingly letting Macho Man main event WM and Starcade.
Does L.A. Park have a contract with either promotion? It could just be that he is a free agent and can go where he pleases. And the whole "OMG, WWE letting guys work in indies" thing was a big deal because WWE had stopped doing it in the early 2000s. Dreamer showing up in ROH at Death Before Dishonor (and he never took a bump) and letting Punk work ROH Unscripted II because the card had gotten savaged by a blizzard are the only times that I have ever heard about WWE letting guys who were under contract to them work indies (aside from finishing up already agreed-to dates before coming to WWE, I mean) from, like, 2002 until they just started letting guys do it last year. People reacted the way they did because it was a big deal. It was a HUGE shift in WWE's policy.
cero2k wrote:
Jun 6th, '18, 19:52
SO yeah, they're not close circles set in stone, but the matter of the fact, we're seeing A LOT of promotions starting to share and work together, promotions that for all accounts wouldn't have done it before, and that's what the article is trying to bring up. I think promotions are realizing that the only way to survive against the WWE monopoly is to work together at least when it comes to sharing talent so that talent can earn more money.
I don't think this has anything to do with "fighting the WWE monopoly." TNA knows they need the exposure, and Delirious is an idiot who is willing to give them (and Magnus/Corgan/the NWA, while we're at it) the exposure for no real gain for ROH. NJPW is working with ROH to get a foothold in North America (they tried on their own and failed) ditto with RevPro, and ROH was mostly using RevPro as a "local promoter" for the few times they go to the UK. Ditto PROGRESS with whoever they worked with in Australia. The PROGRESS/wXw stuff is probably similar on the "what does PROGRESS get out of it" side, while wXw gets exposure in England, where they have started running more shows. They're working together because they each get something out of it (or, in the case of ROH, because Delirious is easy to take advantage of), not out of some grand "WE MUST UNITE TO STOP WWE FROM TAKING OVER THE WORLD!" situation.
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Re: Impact Wrestling & The IWGP Conception

Post by cero2k » Jun 7th, '18, 06:47

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 6th, '18, 23:07
cero2k wrote:
Jun 6th, '18, 19:52
People used to be all "OMG, WWE letting guys work in indies" that means nothing when L.A. Park is about to main event the two biggest promotions in Mexico, that's like WCW and WWF willingly letting Macho Man main event WM and Starcade.
Does L.A. Park have a contract with either promotion? It could just be that he is a free agent and can go where he pleases.

And the whole "OMG, WWE letting guys work in indies" thing was a big deal because WWE had stopped doing it in the early 2000s. Dreamer showing up in ROH at Death Before Dishonor (and he never took a bump) and letting Punk work ROH Unscripted II because the card had gotten savaged by a blizzard are the only times that I have ever heard about WWE letting guys who were under contract to them work indies (aside from finishing up already agreed-to dates before coming to WWE, I mean) from, like, 2002 until they just started letting guys do it last year. People reacted the way they did because it was a big deal. It was a HUGE shift in WWE's policy.
he's not signed anywhere, but that is beyond the point, this article is not just about being signed one place and being lent, it's about companies willingly sharing talent overall. CMLL would NEVER use him if he had pulled this stunt last year. We're seeing televised wrestling use non-contracted talent for bigger spots and promotions not trying to bury each other.

I know why they reacted like that, what i'm saying that is nothing compared to other things like seeing AAA and CMLL willingly (if indeed) sharing talent for their biggest shows.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 6th, '18, 23:07
cero2k wrote:
Jun 6th, '18, 19:52
SO yeah, they're not close circles set in stone, but the matter of the fact, we're seeing A LOT of promotions starting to share and work together, promotions that for all accounts wouldn't have done it before, and that's what the article is trying to bring up. I think promotions are realizing that the only way to survive against the WWE monopoly is to work together at least when it comes to sharing talent so that talent can earn more money.
I don't think this has anything to do with "fighting the WWE monopoly." TNA knows they need the exposure, and Delirious is an idiot who is willing to give them (and Magnus/Corgan/the NWA, while we're at it) the exposure for no real gain for ROH. NJPW is working with ROH to get a foothold in North America (they tried on their own and failed) ditto with RevPro, and ROH was mostly using RevPro as a "local promoter" for the few times they go to the UK. Ditto PROGRESS with whoever they worked with in Australia. The PROGRESS/wXw stuff is probably similar on the "what does PROGRESS get out of it" side, while wXw gets exposure in England, where they have started running more shows. They're working together because they each get something out of it (or, in the case of ROH, because Delirious is easy to take advantage of), not out of some grand "WE MUST UNITE TO STOP WWE FROM TAKING OVER THE WORLD!" situation.
Why can't it be both? The only way to hope that your talent stays with you and doesn't run to the wwe kid promotions in hopes of being signed is to offer that talent as much as possible. That comes in the form of bookings, getting to be on TV via ROH or Impact, being exposed in Japan, UK, Mexico, etc. Being booked in NJPW one day. A promoter would be incredibly stupid to just sit there and think that everything is gonna be ok, especially if you're one of the 'bigger' promotions trying to make things work with storylines and build around someone. Obviously every promotion has their own agenda into working with other promotions, and even if they're as selfish as you're portraying them, there's still gain to everyone if you can work well with others. You say ROH has no gain, but Aldis/Aries has been the most noteworthy thing to happen in ROH since Cody lost the title, everything else has been incredibly irrelevant.

PROGRESS/wXw, I see it the other way, PROGRESS gains the most when your most popular guy is from other there now that the LDRS are gone and they can't secure BSS because of WWE (and now this may get worse). wXw has gained their exposure by their own efforts via 16Carat Gold, because aside from WALTER, none of the other guys have been outside the promotion that much. If we know about wXw for 16Carat Gold, UK most definitely knows about wXw.
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Re: Impact Wrestling & The IWGP Conception

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 7th, '18, 10:25

cero2k wrote:
Jun 7th, '18, 06:47
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 6th, '18, 23:07
cero2k wrote:
Jun 6th, '18, 19:52
People used to be all "OMG, WWE letting guys work in indies" that means nothing when L.A. Park is about to main event the two biggest promotions in Mexico, that's like WCW and WWF willingly letting Macho Man main event WM and Starcade.
Does L.A. Park have a contract with either promotion? It could just be that he is a free agent and can go where he pleases.

And the whole "OMG, WWE letting guys work in indies" thing was a big deal because WWE had stopped doing it in the early 2000s. Dreamer showing up in ROH at Death Before Dishonor (and he never took a bump) and letting Punk work ROH Unscripted II because the card had gotten savaged by a blizzard are the only times that I have ever heard about WWE letting guys who were under contract to them work indies (aside from finishing up already agreed-to dates before coming to WWE, I mean) from, like, 2002 until they just started letting guys do it last year. People reacted the way they did because it was a big deal. It was a HUGE shift in WWE's policy.
he's not signed anywhere, but that is beyond the point, this article is not just about being signed one place and being lent, it's about companies willingly sharing talent overall. CMLL would NEVER use him if he had pulled this stunt last year. We're seeing televised wrestling use non-contracted talent for bigger spots and promotions not trying to bury each other.

I know why they reacted like that, what i'm saying that is nothing compared to other things like seeing AAA and CMLL willingly (if indeed) sharing talent for their biggest shows.
With CMLL and AAA it's certainly a big deal, like it was when NJPW and AJPW first started letting guys work for the other. But (at least in my mind, anyway) those are similar (maybe even more heated, especially in the AAA/CMLL case) to WWE and WCW. Aside from maybe ECW vs. NWA New Jersey, most of the other instances of that type of thing were always from very small promotions who felt like they were competing for the same fans. ROH and TNA never really took shots at each other on the air. It was the fans who did that.
ROH is actually using a lot less non-contracted talent on TV, and has been trending that way for years. Hell... they're using less non-contracted talent off of TV, too. We don't have the "regional" guys anymore. TNA's whole thing is that it's essentially part of a rebranding of the company within the industry. I'd put them giving guys the freedom to work other places in the same category as their decision to let guys keep rights to their gimmicks. TNA understands that they are much smaller and much less of a force within the industry than they were five years ago. They don't have the money to offer most wrestlers exclusive contracts that are worth the wrestler's while because the indy scene as a whole is a lot financially stronger, so they're using this as incentive instead. It's the same as ROH realizing that they didn't have the muscle to stop guys from working for PWG, but rather than just one single promotion, TNA is just letting guys work pretty much everywhere.
cero2k wrote:
Jun 7th, '18, 06:47
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 6th, '18, 23:07
cero2k wrote:
Jun 6th, '18, 19:52
SO yeah, they're not close circles set in stone, but the matter of the fact, we're seeing A LOT of promotions starting to share and work together, promotions that for all accounts wouldn't have done it before, and that's what the article is trying to bring up. I think promotions are realizing that the only way to survive against the WWE monopoly is to work together at least when it comes to sharing talent so that talent can earn more money.
I don't think this has anything to do with "fighting the WWE monopoly." TNA knows they need the exposure, and Delirious is an idiot who is willing to give them (and Magnus/Corgan/the NWA, while we're at it) the exposure for no real gain for ROH. NJPW is working with ROH to get a foothold in North America (they tried on their own and failed) ditto with RevPro, and ROH was mostly using RevPro as a "local promoter" for the few times they go to the UK. Ditto PROGRESS with whoever they worked with in Australia. The PROGRESS/wXw stuff is probably similar on the "what does PROGRESS get out of it" side, while wXw gets exposure in England, where they have started running more shows. They're working together because they each get something out of it (or, in the case of ROH, because Delirious is easy to take advantage of), not out of some grand "WE MUST UNITE TO STOP WWE FROM TAKING OVER THE WORLD!" situation.
Why can't it be both? The only way to hope that your talent stays with you and doesn't run to the wwe kid promotions in hopes of being signed is to offer that talent as much as possible. That comes in the form of bookings, getting to be on TV via ROH or Impact, being exposed in Japan, UK, Mexico, etc. Being booked in NJPW one day. A promoter would be incredibly stupid to just sit there and think that everything is gonna be ok, especially if you're one of the 'bigger' promotions trying to make things work with storylines and build around someone. Obviously every promotion has their own agenda into working with other promotions, and even if they're as selfish as you're portraying them, there's still gain to everyone if you can work well with others. You say ROH has no gain, but Aldis/Aries has been the most noteworthy thing to happen in ROH since Cody lost the title, everything else has been incredibly irrelevant.
PROGRESS/wXw, I see it the other way, PROGRESS gains the most when your most popular guy is from other there now that the LDRS are gone and they can't secure BSS because of WWE (and now this may get worse). wXw has gained their exposure by their own efforts via 16Carat Gold, because aside from WALTER, none of the other guys have been outside the promotion that much. If we know about wXw for 16Carat Gold, UK most definitely knows about wXw.
I'd argue that the Magnus thing is more an All In thing than an ROH thing, and the reason people are talking about it is because everyone is annoyed that this basically spoils the main event of Best in the World. If you want to consider the Magnus thing an ROH thing, then surely the Omega vs. Cody match is an ROH thing, too, and I think that has been probably more buzz-worthy than anything else. The Aries thing was definitely buzz-worthy, but the reason that it's basically the only thing ROH has done that has had people talking has more to do with the lackluster booking than with anything else. I mean... what else has there even been, period? The only things in the company that feel like they've had more thought put into them than just coming up with a general idea have been Cody vs. Taven and Bully Ray vs. Flip Gordon and Cheeseburger (and if I had to guess, Cody and Bubba have been doing most of the booking for those feuds).

With PROGRESS/wXw I would argue that PROGRESS was already using WALTER (and Thatcher, and Brookes) before they started really working together, and that while you're not wrong that WALTER is now a more important player for PROGRESS for the reasons you said, the reason for that is because PROGRESS brought him in and booked him to matter. It's not like ROH counting on New Japan talent to do their drawing for them because they haven't had much success in creating their own draws the past few years.
Yes, wXw has created their own exposure, but having their booker and kayfabe authority figure show up on another promotion's show and make a challenge on behalf of the wXw Unified World Wrestling Champion to a former PROGRESS World Champion for a match on the biggest show of the year (and almost certainly the biggest indy show in all of Europe all year) is a step up in their exposure. PROGRESS seems to have tapped into a slightly different crowd than many other British promotions. Their fanbase has a PWG-ish hipster element to it in addition to British and now also American hardcores. wXw's fanbase seems to be a combination of German hardcores and international grapplef*ck hipsters (it's like the 2011 PWG but for people who love post-2013 EVOLVE). Those fanbases are different, and wXw is hoping that PROGRESS' cult following will respond well to wXw's own cult hero. PROGRESS, meanwhile, gets someone who knows the German landscape and will have some name value in Germany to non-English speakers to help them promote their tour their.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that with the exception of PROGRESS/wXw WWE's patronage deals with PROGRESS and ICW (and, to a lesser extent, EVOLVE), the few indies TNA has shown matches from on their TV (and, aside from D'Amore's own promotion, I don't know if any of those were more than one-time things), and the ROH/NJPW/CMLL/RevPro group, I don't see most of this as promotions "working together" as much as it is them realizing that it makes sense to not pointlessly work against each other. It's not active cooperation so much as it is them ceasing to not cooperate.
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Re: Impact Wrestling & The IWGP Conception

Post by cero2k » Jun 7th, '18, 21:21

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 7th, '18, 10:25


I guess what I'm trying to say is that with the exception of PROGRESS/wXw WWE's patronage deals with PROGRESS and ICW (and, to a lesser extent, EVOLVE), the few indies TNA has shown matches from on their TV (and, aside from D'Amore's own promotion, I don't know if any of those were more than one-time things), and the ROH/NJPW/CMLL/RevPro group, I don't see most of this as promotions "working together" as much as it is them realizing that it makes sense to not pointlessly work against each other. It's not active cooperation so much as it is them ceasing to not cooperate.
that already sounds like a lot to me. Impact is not just showing matches, but more like contracting other promotions to host some matches and angles they want to show, especially everything we've seen with The Clash and House of Hardcore, but this in a way also got Eddie Edwards as the NOAH champ and got the title defended here and there. There's constant publicity for Lucha Underground. Last year we had AAA/NOAH/Impact's presidents all together in the same show. Stuff like that is more 'working together'

To me we're about to get into phase 2 with all the relations this article brought up. A lot of people are expecting Miyahara in the G1. LA Park main eventing CMLL and AAA. Fenix and Penta are right now in 5 televised promotions. I don't know if all of this will work out, but things are happening.
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