Bronson Reed, Bobby Fish part of 13 WWE NXT releases

[cero2k]

BRONSON REED, BOBBY FISH PART OF 13 WWE NXT RELEASES
source: https://www.f4wonline.com/wwe-news/bron ... ses-349281

Bronson Reed heads up the latest list of WWE NXT talent that have been released -- a list of twelve talents that broke Friday night as WWE SmackDown was still on the air.

The 32-year-old Reed had been with WWE since 2019 and won the North American title earlier this year, holding it for just over a month. Reed tweeted, "Just got released by WWE. This monster is back on the loose ... you don't know WHAT you've just done." and tagged AEW, Ring of Honor, Impact and New Japan.

Former two-time NXT Tag Team Champion Bobby Fish was also released. The 44-year-old was part of the popular Undisputed Era faction that included Adam Cole, Kyle O'Reilly and Roderick Strong that broke up this year. Strong defeated Fish this week on NXT TV.

Other talents that were released include:

Mercedes Martinez
Leon Ruff
Tyler Rust
Jake Atlas
Ari Sterling
Kona Reeves
Zechariah Smith
Asher Hale
Giant Zanjeer
Stephon Smith
Denzel Dejournette (Desmond Troy)

Most of the releases were reported by Fightful and PWInsider.

This is the latest round of cuts in what is becoming a regular occurrence for both the WWE main roster and NXT.

Last weekend, Bray Wyatt was released while Ric Flair reportedly asked for and was granted his release several days later. In June, WWE cut both main roster and NXT/205 Live talents like Braun Strowman, Aleister Black, Ruby Riott, Fandango, Lana, Tyler Breeze, Tony Nese and others. Those followed ten April cuts (Samoa Joe, Iiconics, Mickie James, Chelsea Green and others) and eight May cuts.

[Big Red Machine]

It's not the amount of cuts that are getting me so much as the uncoordinated nature of them. Cutting guys who are actively involved in things on TV (Black, Reed, Fish, Rust, etc.).

I had forgot that Reeves existed.

[Thelone]

Reading the rumors, it feels like NXT is gonna go through a hard reboot or at least a big sweep.

[Big Red Machine]

Reading the rumors, it feels like NXT is gonna go through a hard reboot or at least a big sweep.

Agreed.

[cero2k]

It's not the amount of cuts that are getting me so much as the uncoordinated nature of them. Cutting guys who are actively involved in things on TV (Black, Reed, Fish, Rust, etc.).

I had forgot that Reeves existed.

that's everyone's surprise, how people who were champions 3 weeks ago or a stable that debuted a month ago are already gone. My understanding is that there is zero coordination, Vince is picking who goes based on "no midgets, no one over 30" or something along those lines, and he's definitely not even asking Hunter.

Whether people accept it or not, Vince was not happy that NXT lost to AEW and I think we're seeing the repercussions. I think Dave considered that beating Kross on RAW was a similar powermove


i'm ssoooooo curious to see what corporate boot licking Hunter is gonna have to do for the Takeover press conference in a couple of weeks, EVERYONE is gonna want to ask him about it and he can't just talk shit about "Pops"

[Bob-O]

I had forgot that Reeves existed.

I'm surprised he got let go, not that there's any rhyme or reason to any of this, but he's a bigger guy (6'4"/250) and strikes me as a guy with a huge ceiling with a better gimmick.

[Thelone]

I'm surprised he got let go, not that there's any rhyme or reason to any of this, but he's a bigger guy (6'4"/250) and strikes me as a guy with a huge ceiling with a better gimmick.

He's been around for something like seven years (he was already there when I was still watching) and is still trash apparently. Like the "no vanilla midget, no one over 30" thing, I don't think it would be a bad idea to dump people who aren't ready to be called up (or aren't willing to be) after a few years at the PC.

[Big Red Machine]

Whether people accept it or not, Vince was not happy that NXT lost to AEW and I think we're seeing the repercussions. I think Dave considered that beating Kross on RAW was a similar powermove

Keller read it similarly.

i'm ssoooooo curious to see what corporate boot licking Hunter is gonna have to do for the Takeover press conference in a couple of weeks, EVERYONE is gonna want to ask him about it and he can't just talk shit about "Pops"

I usually skip their halftime segment, but I caught the tail end of Zeller and Bix (and Beau James) discussing some of this on last week's Between the Sheets, and someone (Zellner, IIRC) wondered about the possibility of Hunter and Steph cashing out before a sale, so that they would be free to start up their own company without Vince getting in the way.

[Big Red Machine]

Sooo...
Fish, Atlas, and Rust to ROH, hopefully.
Redd probably goes to New Japan.
ROH, AEW, TNA, and MLW should all go after Mercedes hard.

Not sure where Ruff lands.

[Thelone]

I usually skip their halftime segment, but I caught the tail end of Zeller and Bix (and Beau James) discussing some of this on last week's Between the Sheets, and someone (Zellner, IIRC) wondered about the possibility of Hunter and Steph cashing out before a sale, so that they would be free to start up their own company without Vince getting in the way.

It could have been a small possibility if AEW didn't exist.

Also I really don't have much confidence in Hunter's sole vision. The golden age of NXT (2013 to mid 2015) was him, Dusty and that Ryan Ward guy who's writing Smackdown now I think. At some point in 2015 (I'd be willing to say when Dusty stepped out for health reasons), Hunter started to go crazy with big signings and never reeled back really until now.

[Big Red Machine]

I usually skip their halftime segment, but I caught the tail end of Zeller and Bix (and Beau James) discussing some of this on last week's Between the Sheets, and someone (Zellner, IIRC) wondered about the possibility of Hunter and Steph cashing out before a sale, so that they would be free to start up their own company without Vince getting in the way.

It could have been a small possibility if AEW didn't exist.

Also I really don't have much confidence in Hunter's sole vision. The golden age of NXT (2013 to mid 2015) was him, Dusty and that Ryan Ward guy who's writing Smackdown now I think. At some point in 2015 (I'd be willing to say when Dusty stepped out for health reasons), Hunter started to go crazy with big signings and never reeled back really until now.

I see what you're saying, but I think your definition of NXT's "golden age" is one that assumes that it has to be a developmental territory. I thought much of what they did through 2019 was excellent, even if it wasn't actually developing/grooming talent.

[cero2k]

Sooo...
Fish, Atlas, and Rust to ROH, hopefully.
Redd probably goes to New Japan.
ROH, AEW, TNA, and MLW should all go after Mercedes hard.

Not sure where Ruff lands.

I'm thinking Atlas will land with AEW and Rust USED to be with NJStrong, so maybe he gets taken again. Redd is my biggest question because without a job, he's technically illegal in the US and he did move his family here, taking a New Japan job would mean having to move out of the country again.

[Thelone]

I see what you're saying, but I think your definition of NXT's "golden age" is one that assumes that it has to be a developmental territory. I thought much of what they did through 2019 was excellent, even if it wasn't actually developing/grooming talent.

I mean, that is what NXT is supposed to be and I consider it the golden age because it had the perfect balance between character building, storytelling and workrate.

It seems like the success got into Hunter's head and without someone to reel him back in, he showed flaws from both Tony Khan hiring anything that moves thanks to endless funds (+ Vince not giving a shit until recently) and being too protective with "his" guys, and WCW/TNA of pushing new signees directly to the top at the expense of everybody else. Over the years, it made his product stale (people stay for way too long) and predictable (most champions since Owens and Asuka have been "big new acquisition wins the belt and runs with it for a while until next big name comes in and lather rinse repeat").

[Big Red Machine]

I see what you're saying, but I think your definition of NXT's "golden age" is one that assumes that it has to be a developmental territory. I thought much of what they did through 2019 was excellent, even if it wasn't actually developing/grooming talent.

I mean, that is what NXT is supposed to be and I consider it the golden age because it had the perfect balance between character building, storytelling and workrate.

It seems like the success got into Hunter's head and without someone to reel him back in, he showed flaws from both Tony Khan hiring anything that moves thanks to endless funds (+ Vince not giving a shit until recently) and being too protective with "his" guys, and WCW/TNA of pushing new signees directly to the top at the expense of everybody else. Over the years, it made his product stale (people stay for way too long) and predictable (most champions since Owens and Asuka have been "big new acquisition wins the belt and runs with it for a while until next big name comes in and lather rinse repeat").

You're not wrong about the booking, but I think a lot of that was feeling like they needed to make a splash to hide guys (and usually the champ) getting called up at unpredictable times.

Also getting lost in the discussion is that NXT deserves credit for some guys who they won't get credit for because they didn't pan out due to things outside of NXT's control (Lars Sullivan, Velveteen Dream, Jason Jordan) and for people who they developed but got pulled up to the main roster before they could be put anywhere near the title scene (Bliss, Crews). It's not just top guys who get called up. Then there were guys who they developed who Vince totally squandered (Gable, FTR). NXT has done a fine job at developing talent. The problem is that Vince doesn't use that talent well.

[Thelone]

You're not wrong about the booking, but I think a lot of that was feeling like they needed to make a splash to hide guys (and usually the champ) getting called up at unpredictable times.

Does that happen often though? The only examples I can think of are Owens and Banks (+ Kross now I suppose).

Also getting lost in the discussion is that NXT deserves credit for some guys who they won't get credit for because they didn't pan out due to things outside of NXT's control (Lars Sullivan, Velveteen Dream, Jason Jordan) and for people who they developed but got pulled up to the main roster before they could be put anywhere near the title scene (Bliss, Crews). It's not just top guys who get called up. Then there were guys who they developed who Vince totally squandered (Gable, FTR). NXT has done a fine job at developing talent. The problem is that Vince doesn't use that talent well.

I'll give you Sullivan and Dream as two people who nuked themselves. Bliss was never going to be in the NXT title picture because she wasn't (and still isn't) a workrate wrestler and she was a better fit in the main roster anyway, which is also the case for Elias, Corbin, Braun, Carmella, Evans and probably a few more I'm forgetting. Tag teams floundering when they're being called up is pretty much the norm (and it's not like FTR have been setting the world on fire ever since THE SHACKLES ARE OFF!!!). The only one I totally disagree with is Crews : I've always felt like this guy actually regressed during his (fairly short) time in NXT and to the shock of no one, just being a guy who can do cool movez did nothing for him on the main roster. Only now he's going somewhere, until they start pushing... Captain Ziz or whatever Babatunde is called nowadays.

[Big Red Machine]

You're not wrong about the booking, but I think a lot of that was feeling like they needed to make a splash to hide guys (and usually the champ) getting called up at unpredictable times.

Does that happen often though? The only examples I can think of are Owens and Banks (+ Kross now I suppose).

And Kross last year when Lee got called up.
Roode lost the best to Drew a few months after Drew's return, and Roode was on the main roster in about two months.
It's possible it didn't happen quite as much as I remember, but depending on how much leeway you're willing to give on each end, Roode winning the belt from Nakamura could count as well (Roode had been on TV for about six months and it was his first program against a real name; Nakamura lost to Zayn two months later and was then called up). The other exmaples I was remembering turned out to be guys who just felt fresh rather than actually having been new (Andrade winning it from Drew, and Black winning it from Andrade).

Also getting lost in the discussion is that NXT deserves credit for some guys who they won't get credit for because they didn't pan out due to things outside of NXT's control (Lars Sullivan, Velveteen Dream, Jason Jordan) and for people who they developed but got pulled up to the main roster before they could be put anywhere near the title scene (Bliss, Crews). It's not just top guys who get called up. Then there were guys who they developed who Vince totally squandered (Gable, FTR). NXT has done a fine job at developing talent. The problem is that Vince doesn't use that talent well.

I'll give you Sullivan and Dream as two people who nuked themselves. Bliss was never going to be in the NXT title picture because she wasn't (and still isn't) a workrate wrestler and she was a better fit in the main roster anyway, which is also the case for Elias, Corbin, Braun, Carmella, Evans and probably a few more I'm forgetting. Tag teams floundering when they're being called up is pretty much the norm (and it's not like FTR have been setting the world on fire ever since THE SHACKLES ARE OFF!!!). The only one I totally disagree with is Crews : I've always felt like this guy actually regressed during his (fairly short) time in NXT and to the shock of no one, just being a guy who can do cool movez did nothing for him on the main roster. Only now he's going somewhere, until they start pushing... Captain Ziz or whatever Babatunde is called nowadays.

I think some of the people you mentioned are better than they credit for in the ring. Particularly Bliss, Braun, Evans, and Corbin, but even Carmella and Elias are serviceable and able to be carried to good (and, in Elias' case, even better than good) matches by talented workers like Rollins and Sasha.
I also think that people have a distorted view of what should be considered a success for a developmental territory. You say that I'm listening to too much Lance Storm (and I'll respond by insisting that there is no such thing), but people's careers should not be measures as "main event or bust." Heavy Machinery were a good undercard babyface tag team. Tyler Breeze was a great undercard babyface or heel. No Way Jose was a fine undercard babyface act. So was Adam Rose (and Rose had some potential as a creepy heel as well). The Drifter is a good undercard heel act. A promotion needs those, too. Liv Morgan is a perfectly serviceable wrestler. Will she ever be world-title level? No. But she's fine to fill a spot on the roster. That should be a success for a developmental system taking someone from scratch.

As for FTR in particular, I think the issue is more the booking than their ability.


Also, Enzo and Cass should be added to the list of self-nukers who had big potential.

[Thelone]

And Kross last year when Lee got called up.
Roode lost the best to Drew a few months after Drew's return, and Roode was on the main roster in about two months.
It's possible it didn't happen quite as much as I remember, but depending on how much leeway you're willing to give on each end, Roode winning the belt from Nakamura could count as well (Roode had been on TV for about six months and it was his first program against a real name; Nakamura lost to Zayn two months later and was then called up). The other exmaples I was remembering turned out to be guys who just felt fresh rather than actually having been new (Andrade winning it from Drew, and Black winning it from Andrade).

I'm not sure I'd call any of those unpredictable, quite the opposite actually.

I think some of the people you mentioned are better than they credit for in the ring. Particularly Bliss, Braun, Evans, and Corbin, but even Carmella and Elias are serviceable and able to be carried to good (and, in Elias' case, even better than good) matches by talented workers like Rollins and Sasha.

I didn't say they are/were bad, but they didn't fit Hunter's increasingly workrate-centric plans and thus would have been lost in the shuffle in NXT. Hell, Strawman never wrestled or even appeared on NXT TV.

I also think that people have a distorted view of what should be considered a success for a developmental territory. You say that I'm listening to too much Lance Storm (and I'll respond by insisting that there is no such thing), but people's careers should not be measures as "main event or bust." Heavy Machinery were a good undercard babyface tag team. Tyler Breeze was a great undercard babyface or heel. No Way Jose was a fine undercard babyface act. So was Adam Rose (and Rose had some potential as a creepy heel as well). The Drifter is a good undercard heel act. A promotion needs those, too. Liv Morgan is a perfectly serviceable wrestler. Will she ever be world-title level? No. But she's fine to fill a spot on the roster. That should be a success for a developmental system taking someone from scratch.

Not sure who this Lance Storm comment is aimed at, but that isn't me.

In all seriousness, I agree with what you're saying, but two things though :

• No main eventer or even close to it
• Notice how the people you're mentioning were either new to the business or obscure indy guys

That second point is the most important and I'm going back to gool ol' Crews here. Besides the obvious WWE-isms, this is a guy who needed to be taught how to cut at least a passable promo and a character/gimmick that isn't just smiley flippy babyface. Look at O'Reilly, he's the fucking same he was in ROH who still can't cut a convincing promo to save his life and always feels like he's about to burst into tears whenever he's talking.

Basically, NXT/the PC will teach you the fundamentals and how to be a decent hand if you are a newbie or just spent a cup of coffee on the indies, but won't do much for you if you're already an indy name and too far in. That's pretty damn pathetic that their state of the art performance center they're sinking millions in every year is bearing the same results as current day OVW with their unlicensed Windows 10 and Winamp.

The more I think about it, the more I understand Vince's point quite frankly.

As for FTR in particular, I think the issue is more the booking than their ability.

So, THE SHACKLES ARE BACK ON THEN?

Or there are no shackles and that's their ceiling no matter where they are, whichever.

Also, Enzo and Cass should be added to the list of self-nukers who had big potential.

They had potential together, but that was never going to happen on the main roster because Vince.

[Big Red Machine]

And Kross last year when Lee got called up.
Roode lost the best to Drew a few months after Drew's return, and Roode was on the main roster in about two months.
It's possible it didn't happen quite as much as I remember, but depending on how much leeway you're willing to give on each end, Roode winning the belt from Nakamura could count as well (Roode had been on TV for about six months and it was his first program against a real name; Nakamura lost to Zayn two months later and was then called up). The other exmaples I was remembering turned out to be guys who just felt fresh rather than actually having been new (Andrade winning it from Drew, and Black winning it from Andrade).

I'm not sure I'd call any of those unpredictable, quite the opposite actually.

I thought they felt predictable after they lost the belt, but not before it.

I think some of the people you mentioned are better than they credit for in the ring. Particularly Bliss, Braun, Evans, and Corbin, but even Carmella and Elias are serviceable and able to be carried to good (and, in Elias' case, even better than good) matches by talented workers like Rollins and Sasha.

I didn't say they are/were bad, but they didn't fit Hunter's increasingly workrate-centric plans and thus would have been lost in the shuffle in NXT. Hell, Strawman never wrestled or even appeared on NXT TV.

When Biiss and Carmella got called up, NXT hadn't quite developed into that yet, and the two of them, Braun, and Evans all got called up well before they should have been in terms of working ability. Even if not a top spot, Bliss could easily have settled in to the #2 heel position in NXT.

Even if Braun never appeared on TV, NXT still deserves the credit for training him.

I also think that people have a distorted view of what should be considered a success for a developmental territory. You say that I'm listening to too much Lance Storm (and I'll respond by insisting that there is no such thing), but people's careers should not be measures as "main event or bust." Heavy Machinery were a good undercard babyface tag team. Tyler Breeze was a great undercard babyface or heel. No Way Jose was a fine undercard babyface act. So was Adam Rose (and Rose had some potential as a creepy heel as well). The Drifter is a good undercard heel act. A promotion needs those, too. Liv Morgan is a perfectly serviceable wrestler. Will she ever be world-title level? No. But she's fine to fill a spot on the roster. That should be a success for a developmental system taking someone from scratch.

Not sure who this Lance Storm comment is aimed at, but that isn't me.

In all seriousness, I agree with what you're saying, but two things though :

• No main eventer or even close to it
• Notice how the people you're mentioning were either new to the business or obscure indy guys

That second point is the most important and I'm going back to gool ol' Crews here. Besides the obvious WWE-isms, this is a guy who needed to be taught how to cut at least a passable promo and a character/gimmick that isn't just smiley flippy babyface. Look at O'Reilly, he's the fucking same he was in ROH who still can't cut a convincing promo to save his life and always feels like he's about to burst into tears whenever he's talking.

Basically, NXT/the PC will teach you the fundamentals and how to be a decent hand if you are a newbie or just spent a cup of coffee on the indies, but won't do much for you if you're already an indy name and too far in. That's pretty damn pathetic that their state of the art performance center they're sinking millions in every year is bearing the same results as current day OVW with their unlicensed Windows 10 and Winamp.

The more I think about it, the more I understand Vince's point quite frankly.

I figured the conversation had to be about people who started in NXT or were obscure indy names because I thought the discussion was about NXT's ability as a developmental territory. To give them credit for making an Owens or Zayn or Balor or Shinsuke or Roode or Drew or Asuka would be ridiculous. If you sign an already finished product but Vince won't use him/her on the main roster, it's silly to criticize NXT for not "developing" him/her more when they really don't need to develop.

Yes, O'Reilly sucks at promos. But we knew that going in and we knew he'd probably never get any better. The real solution should be to use him in a tag team or with a manager. But they did teach Rollins how to cut a promo. Roddy, too (although Roddy had gotten competent towards the end of his indy run.

Guys are only main eventers if they are pushed that way. The problem is Vince. Instead of looking at NXT in a vacuum, you have to compare it to other WWE developmental territories. I'm going to ignore the women here because NXT has been the only developmental territory that existed while women were given a chance to be main eventers.
OVW gave us Brock, Orton, Cena, Ziggler (and Vince managed to kill him off quickly), and they get partial credit for Miz. I'm not counting Lashley here because the consensus was that he was called up WAY too soon, and it showed because he sucked for long time. His first actually good run was in TNA in 2014.

DSW gave us... partial credit for Miz, partial credit for Ryback, and who else? Kofi doesn't count, because his main event run was a total accident. If Randy Orton doesn't kick Ali in the head too hard, Kofi-Mania never happens. Swagger, I guess, but Vince killed him off almost immediately after giving him the belt.

FCW gave us... Big E. (although he's not actually a main eventer yet), partial credit for Bray, partial credit for Ryback, Rusev (almost got there, but Vince killed him off), the Usos (although they were trained before, too), Roman (although the real top-star presentation was something he developed well afterwards. Le'akee was not the Head of the Table)

NXT gave us... Braun, the potential of Lars Sullivan, partial credit for Bray (I'm not going to count Corbin as being that successful), and it should be noted that 1) they had to split time pushing the women and tag teams, too, and 2) NXT was being asked to draw ratings and houses that no other developmental territory was ever asked to draw, so you can't just go with the grapefruit-circuit guys on top.

The question shouldn't be how many main eventers (or even upper midcarders) did these places create, but rather how many people did they set up for that level, either by training them or by helping them find that gimmick that allowed them to connect with the crowd. The developmental territory shouldn't be blamed if it gives Vince a Curtis Axel or a Damien Sandow and Vince drops the ball.

As for FTR in particular, I think the issue is more the booking than their ability.

So, THE SHACKLES ARE BACK ON THEN?

Or there are no shackles and that's their ceiling no matter where they are, whichever.

You give those guys to Gabe in EVOLVE or during his ROH run and they're main eventers. You drop them into a New Japan that cares about its tag division and they're main eventers. You put them in wXw or PROGRESS and they're main eventers. You give those guys to Delirious and tell him that he has to give them actual time their matches, and they're main eventers. Just like they were main eventers in NXT. The problem is Vince. American Alpha, FTR, and AoP all had massive potential. The problem isn't their training. The problem is Vince wouldn't give them the chance.
And I don't blame Hunter for trying to push them, because he was hoping he could show Vince that these peoplecan work as main eventers, just like he did with the women.

[Thelone]

When Biiss and Carmella got called up, NXT hadn't quite developed into that yet, and the two of them, Braun, and Evans all got called up well before they should have been in terms of working ability. Even if not a top spot, Bliss could easily have settled in to the #2 heel position in NXT.

I guess it was less obvious with the women, but Bliss and Carmella were never going to get the ball in NXT, which they got on the main roster. You can actually count on one hand (with a finger or two to spare) how many women got the ball/belt in NXT during the last 5-6 years.

Even if Braun never appeared on TV, NXT still deserves the credit for training him.

Again, I didn't say you shouldn't credit the PC for training Strowman even if he's never been on NXT TV, but he's a guy who would have died on the show (most likely squashing jobbers endlessly) just like Corbin and Elias did when they were down there.

I figured the conversation had to be about people who started in NXT or were obscure indy names because I thought the discussion was about NXT's ability as a developmental territory. To give them credit for making an Owens or Zayn or Balor or Shinsuke or Roode or Drew or Asuka would be ridiculous. If you sign an already finished product but Vince won't use him/her on the main roster, it's silly to criticize NXT for not "developing" him/her more when they really don't need to develop.

Developmental in a big company like WWE isn't just about picking random bodybuilders/fitness models/former athletes and training them to be wrestlers. You mention Zayn (the others I agree with you), but he had to learn how to be Sami Zayn after a decade of being a mute "luchador". This is something that should have been done with countless guys/girls who got called up and ended up being duds because they can't cut a promo and/or have no character to speak of.

Yes, O'Reilly sucks at promos. But we knew that going in and we knew he'd probably never get any better. The real solution should be to use him in a tag team or with a manager. But they did teach Rollins how to cut a promo. Roddy, too (although Roddy had gotten competent towards the end of his indy run.

That's the thing : why even hire a guy like O'Reilly if you're not going to work with him on his weaknesses that will limit him tremendously in WWE? This is on them and quite frankly, also on O'Reilly who's complacent and doesn't seem to understand that this is what failed him in ROH and what will lead to his demise in WWE as well.

Guys are only main eventers if they are pushed that way. The problem is Vince. Instead of looking at NXT in a vacuum, you have to compare it to other WWE developmental territories. I'm going to ignore the women here because NXT has been the only developmental territory that existed while women were given a chance to be main eventers.
OVW gave us Brock, Orton, Cena, Ziggler (and Vince managed to kill him off quickly), and they get partial credit for Miz. I'm not counting Lashley here because the consensus was that he was called up WAY too soon, and it showed because he sucked for long time. His first actually good run was in TNA in 2014.

DSW gave us... partial credit for Miz, partial credit for Ryback, and who else? Kofi doesn't count, because his main event run was a total accident. If Randy Orton doesn't kick Ali in the head too hard, Kofi-Mania never happens. Swagger, I guess, but Vince killed him off almost immediately after giving him the belt.

FCW gave us... Big E. (although he's not actually a main eventer yet), partial credit for Bray, partial credit for Ryback, Rusev (almost got there, but Vince killed him off), the Usos (although they were trained before, too), Roman (although the real top-star presentation was something he developed well afterwards. Le'akee was not the Head of the Table)

NXT gave us... Braun, the potential of Lars Sullivan, partial credit for Bray (I'm not going to count Corbin as being that successful), and it should be noted that 1) they had to split time pushing the women and tag teams, too, and 2) NXT was being asked to draw ratings and houses that no other developmental territory was ever asked to draw, so you can't just go with the grapefruit-circuit guys on top.

The question shouldn't be how many main eventers (or even upper midcarders) did these places create, but rather how many people did they set up for that level, either by training them or by helping them find that gimmick that allowed them to connect with the crowd. The developmental territory shouldn't be blamed if it gives Vince a Curtis Axel or a Damien Sandow and Vince drops the ball.

I think people expect a lot more from NXT/PC because it's been around for almost a decade in its current form and how much money they've invested in it. OVW is a wrestling school they had a partnership with for a few years, DSW and FCW were much smaller than even early NXT, and current NXT had to draw ratings and sell out arenas when Hunter felt the need to try to show up the old man with his version of PWG while sinking more and more cash into his vanity project with diminishing results.

You give those guys to Gabe in EVOLVE or during his ROH run and they're main eventers. You drop them into a New Japan that cares about its tag division and they're main eventers. You put them in wXw or PROGRESS and they're main eventers. You give those guys to Delirious and tell him that he has to give them actual time their matches, and they're main eventers. Just like they were main eventers in NXT. The problem is Vince. American Alpha, FTR, and AoP all had massive potential. The problem isn't their training. The problem is Vince wouldn't give them the chance.
And I don't blame Hunter for trying to push them, because he was hoping he could show Vince that these peoplecan work as main eventers, just like he did with the women.

Exactly, the main problem is that they're bland and uninteresting. Their first name in NXT was the Mechanics for a good reason (and probably too on the nose).

[Big Red Machine]

When Biiss and Carmella got called up, NXT hadn't quite developed into that yet, and the two of them, Braun, and Evans all got called up well before they should have been in terms of working ability. Even if not a top spot, Bliss could easily have settled in to the #2 heel position in NXT.

I guess it was less obvious with the women, but Bliss and Carmella were never going to get the ball in NXT, which they got on the main roster. You can actually count on one hand (with a finger or two to spare) how many women got the ball/belt in NXT during the last 5-6 years.

I think Bliss might have had a shot if not for Asuka. Asuka is what derails a lot of people because she was the top dog for so long... but I don't have a problem with that because the story suited it. The problem was her getting called up without having the chance to put someone over first and make the next top star.

Even if Braun never appeared on TV, NXT still deserves the credit for training him.

Again, I didn't say you shouldn't credit the PC for training Strowman even if he's never been on NXT TV, but he's a guy who would have died on the show (most likely squashing jobbers endlessly) just like Corbin and Elias did when they were down there.

I don't remember Corbin or Elias squashing jobbers much, and if Elias did, it's because he wasn't much above jobber level himself when he was called up. But Elias is absolutely an example of a guy who NXT made, as they helped him find the gimmick that made him more than bland Logan Shulo.
Also, who is to say that he would have wound up squashing jobbers all the time like the Ascension instead of being involved in real storylines like Lars Sullivan was?

I figured the conversation had to be about people who started in NXT or were obscure indy names because I thought the discussion was about NXT's ability as a developmental territory. To give them credit for making an Owens or Zayn or Balor or Shinsuke or Roode or Drew or Asuka would be ridiculous. If you sign an already finished product but Vince won't use him/her on the main roster, it's silly to criticize NXT for not "developing" him/her more when they really don't need to develop.

Developmental in a big company like WWE isn't just about picking random bodybuilders/fitness models/former athletes and training them to be wrestlers. You mention Zayn (the others I agree with you), but he had to learn how to be Sami Zayn after a decade of being a mute "luchador". This is something that should have been done with countless guys/girls who got called up and ended up being duds because they can't cut a promo and/or have no character to speak of.

I'm not really sure who you think fits into this category other than maybe Crews, Jax, and Dana Brooke, and I think it's pretty much universally recognized that the latter two were called up before they were ready. Furthermore, I think there were a lot of people who were less bland in NXT and Vince made them blander when they were called up (Ember Moon, Ascension, Summer Rae, American Alpha, Heavy Machinery. We're even seeing it now with Karrion Kross. They took away his entrance and his symbolism and have reduced him to a catchphrase).

Yes, O'Reilly sucks at promos. But we knew that going in and we knew he'd probably never get any better. The real solution should be to use him in a tag team or with a manager. But they did teach Rollins how to cut a promo. Roddy, too (although Roddy had gotten competent towards the end of his indy run.

That's the thing : why even hire a guy like O'Reilly if you're not going to work with him on his weaknesses that will limit him tremendously in WWE? This is on them and quite frankly, also on O'Reilly who's complacent and doesn't seem to understand that this is what failed him in ROH and what will lead to his demise in WWE as well.

Why are you assuming that they haven't been working with him and for whatever reason it's just not taking? You hire a guy like that because you don't know if your promo classes will work for him until you try. Yes, O'Reilly's downfall as a singles competitor in NXT has been the same thing that hurt him in ROH, but fr Seth Rollins, his strength on the main roster has been the thing he was the worst at in ROH. Pac was bland as f*ck, too, but look where he is now. Not all of that should be credited to NXT, but that's certainly where he really started to show improvement in that category.

Guys are only main eventers if they are pushed that way. The problem is Vince. Instead of looking at NXT in a vacuum, you have to compare it to other WWE developmental territories. I'm going to ignore the women here because NXT has been the only developmental territory that existed while women were given a chance to be main eventers.
OVW gave us Brock, Orton, Cena, Ziggler (and Vince managed to kill him off quickly), and they get partial credit for Miz. I'm not counting Lashley here because the consensus was that he was called up WAY too soon, and it showed because he sucked for long time. His first actually good run was in TNA in 2014.

DSW gave us... partial credit for Miz, partial credit for Ryback, and who else? Kofi doesn't count, because his main event run was a total accident. If Randy Orton doesn't kick Ali in the head too hard, Kofi-Mania never happens. Swagger, I guess, but Vince killed him off almost immediately after giving him the belt.

FCW gave us... Big E. (although he's not actually a main eventer yet), partial credit for Bray, partial credit for Ryback, Rusev (almost got there, but Vince killed him off), the Usos (although they were trained before, too), Roman (although the real top-star presentation was something he developed well afterwards. Le'akee was not the Head of the Table)

NXT gave us... Braun, the potential of Lars Sullivan, partial credit for Bray (I'm not going to count Corbin as being that successful), and it should be noted that 1) they had to split time pushing the women and tag teams, too, and 2) NXT was being asked to draw ratings and houses that no other developmental territory was ever asked to draw, so you can't just go with the grapefruit-circuit guys on top.

The question shouldn't be how many main eventers (or even upper midcarders) did these places create, but rather how many people did they set up for that level, either by training them or by helping them find that gimmick that allowed them to connect with the crowd. The developmental territory shouldn't be blamed if it gives Vince a Curtis Axel or a Damien Sandow and Vince drops the ball.

I think people expect a lot more from NXT/PC because it's been around for almost a decade in its current form and how much money they've invested in it. OVW is a wrestling school they had a partnership with for a few years, DSW and FCW were much smaller than even early NXT, and current NXT had to draw ratings and sell out arenas when Hunter felt the need to try to show up the old man with his version of PWG while sinking more and more cash into his vanity project with diminishing results.

NXT actually hasn't had to sell out arenas very much, as their schedule has always been quite limited, and they really haven't had to do it since the downturn started.

Your point about size and tenure is taken (although, again, who did OVW produce towards the end? And NXT is at about the point in terms of tenure as developmental where OVW was when WWE dropped them), but when you add the women back in, NXT's record looks a lot better. I'm not holding not developing bigger-name female stars against the others because that wasn't their directive at the time, but there is an opportunity cost. If you're only trying to develop male wrestlers, you have twice as much time to spend on them. Every minute spent on Bianca Belair is a minute that wasn't spent on Kona Reeves (of course, it's equally valid to say that every moment spent on someone who came in as a finished product like Adam Cole is also a minute not spent on Kona Reeves, but I'll get to that in a moment).
And it's not just the women NXT was doing this with. They were also spending time on tag teams whereas the other developmental promotions didn't unless those teams were from wrestling families (Usos, Hart Dynasty. I can barely even remember any other teams that got called up as teams, other than the Major Brothers, and that's going back to 2007). And you can argue that spending time on tag teams and also on "short guys" like Cole, Gargano, and Ciampa (and, by the way, how about Ciampa as a guy whose mic skills improved in NXT?) is something they should have known not to because Vince would never push them to the top... but you could have made the exact same argument about the women when NXT started pushing them, and NXT (and specifically Hunter, Del Rey, William Regal, Ryan Ward, and Matt Bloom) did successfully change the culture on the main roster as far as women's wrestling goes.

As for the PWG comparison, that's nowhere near fair. A monkey could book PWG. It's just taking a list of top indy talent that are available that day and pulling names out of a hat. NXT has actual storylines.

You give those guys to Gabe in EVOLVE or during his ROH run and they're main eventers. You drop them into a New Japan that cares about its tag division and they're main eventers. You put them in wXw or PROGRESS and they're main eventers. You give those guys to Delirious and tell him that he has to give them actual time their matches, and they're main eventers. Just like they were main eventers in NXT. The problem is Vince. American Alpha, FTR, and AoP all had massive potential. The problem isn't their training. The problem is Vince wouldn't give them the chance.
And I don't blame Hunter for trying to push them, because he was hoping he could show Vince that these peoplecan work as main eventers, just like he did with the women.

Exactly, the main problem is that they're bland and uninteresting. Their first name in NXT was the Mechanics for a good reason (and probably too on the nose).

They started off bland, sure, but I haven't found them bland for abut five years at this point.
But even if you do think they're bland, the promoter's job is to come up with ways to hide that blandness. Look at what NXT did with the AoP. They gave them a menacing manager who fit their image, and shot their promos in lighting designed to make them look more menacing. If someone isn't the most dynamic promo, you have them cut most of the promos in video package form, where you can do as many takes as you like and hide any awkward facial expressions (and distract people from any general sense of blandness) with clips of what they're talking about (or just of them doing cool things). Accentuate the positives and hide the negatives. That's what promoting is all about.