cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
You're better equipped to talk about PROGRESS than I am but what has EVOLVE "thrown away" just for a WWE favor?
I honestly believe that EVOLVE's booking heavily favors wrestlers that WWE is interested in. I feel like they would have crowned Riddle a long time ago and given him a proper reign if not for that dumb story that Regal wouldn't sign him until he won the title, and if Gabe pays as much attention as you say he has, I have no reason to believe otherwise. WWN title to me is an excuse to crown the guys that Gabe actually would want as EVOLVE champs. There is a lot of favoritism in EVOLVE for WWE-flavored guys.
I totally disagree. Gabe puts the title on great wrestlers and WWE is interested in great wrestlers. Remember that the two champions before Riddle- Zack & Thatcher, who held the belt for well over two and a half years combined- are not guys WWE has really had any interest in. Gabe is incentivized to feature guys WWE is interested in, yes, but in roles where it won't cause too many problems if WWE swoops in and signs them.
Just look at the product right now: In the past few months he has lost his three major centerpieces (Riddle and Lee to WWE, ZSJ to New Japan), plus either Tracy Williams or Stokely are at least leaving EVOLVE, but that probably means getting signed by WWE, too) and he really hasn't had time to build up replacements for them other than Darby and Theory, who still feel like midcarders on the rise rather than main eventers), hence the Shane Strickland heel mega-push. Some of that undoubtedly has to do with people seemingly leaving for other reasons (Yehi, ACH, Ethan Page, and reportedly Thatcher just doesn't have any more dates booked) so he lost a good chunk of the guys he was probably hoping to use in the interim (just for this reason, I wouldn't be shocked to see Thatcher come back, and my guess is that this played a big factor in his decision to bring in Janela, who while very good, just doesn't come off as an "EVOLVE" type of guy).
The Regal/Riddle thing was more of something to get over Riddle's arrogance and entitlement, which was causing problems within Catchpoint at the time, and which Riddle would need to overcome by the end of the year to become the "face of the WWN" top babyface once Gargano left. It also served to build up to Riddle's title shot against Thatcher at the next show. I don't think it has ever been mentioned since, to the point where I thought you were confusing it with the more recent similar thing they did with Austin Theory, whose entire gimmick is that he is using EVOLVE (and FIP, and the rest of the WWN) as a stepping stone to go to WWE.
cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
Am I excited when they say Regal will be showing up at EVOLVE? Not really. But that's because WWE won't let him on the live stream. But when he (or Sami Zayn, or someone else) has shown up in front of the crowd, he has always been involved in some sort of segment that did give someone sort of storyline mission.
that's the least you can do, but it's not like they ever come back and work a program.
No, but that's an unrealistic expectation, at least as far as the WWE/EVOLVE relationship has always been. WWE has treated EVOLVE like everyone else in that respect, where a guy is allowed to finish up his dates, but then he can't wrestle anywhere else. This Cole/WALTER match was the first time WWE sent someone under full-time WWE contract to wrestle a match in EVOLVE. If you can't use the guy in a physical way and have no guarantee that he'll come back, then you need to come up with some other way to use him.
cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
ICW's cheap pops are just that: cheap pops. They don't mean sh*t to me, but neither to anyone else's.
I lost interested in Matt Cross about eight years ago. He can do flips and he's had the occasional good match. So what? As far as indy high-flyers go, he feels very bottom of the barrel.
They mean a lot to a lot of , excuse my french, marks, that's how cheap WWE's bones are that ICW is willing to play game with WWE for them.
I meant to say "neither
do anyone else's [cheap pops mean anything to me]." Sorry about the typo.
I totally agree with you about ICW, though. I've always found them to be a very cult-y promotion. Their top guy was freakin' GRADO for G-d's sake.
cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
If you personally don't like Cross that is completely understandable, but beyond the point. You can get excited for Sami Zayn going to EVOLVE, but I really haven't cared for him since he unmasked.
I don't really get excited for an NXT guy making an EVOLVE appearance, but I appreciate that Gabe finds a way to give it some value. As for Zayn in particular, you didn't care for his NXT Title chase?
cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
You hope that the TNA guys all squash the NGW guys? Well then doesn't that defeat your stated purpose above of this helping NGW?
I think Impact taping matches for their storylines in other promotions makes Impact look small-time. It's a reminder that they're not actually running very often, and shows that the "stars" of Impact can't draw that many people, even on a show where they are a big special attraction.
I don't really need the NGW guys to have a 30 minute classic or to win matches to appreciate who is worth following. If they go in there, have a 5-10 minute match and lose to the 'stars', that is more than enough and it still got eyes on those guys.
Losing to the stars in ten minutes makes you a JTTS. It's not enough time to see if someone is really good. It's enough time to say "I'd like to try to find more of this guy," but with so much other product out there, no one is going to put that time in because there is WWE, TNA, ROH, NJPW, CMLL, MLW, PWG, EVOLVE, wXw, PROGRESS, RevPro, Defiant, AAW, SHINE, All Japan, LU, NOAH, Dragon Gate, Beyond, CZW, CHIKARA, etc. all out there begging for attention and with more mythos and behind them and bigger names in front of the camera.
cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
If not running very often was a problem, NXT would be the shittiest show in WWE, yet it's not. What does it matter if they don't run often? that's why you run shows like this co-promoted shows. And you may think that taping matches in random indies makes them look small-time, I see it as their storylines are not encapsulated to this dumb 'Impact Universe' where other promotions don't exist or where your wrestles don't go all over the world to wrestle, to me this makes the wrestlers look bigger when you suddenly see Cage fight off Sugiura, or when you see Eddie do a run in on a random callihan match and escalate a story.
NXT actually runs A LOT more often than TNA does, but the point has more to do with the way TNA has purposely structured their contracts. You listed one of the reasons for running this show as "it gets your talents bookings between tapings." What I'm saying is that in TNA, that's irrelevant because they have strategically chosen to structure their contracts to allow their wrestlers to work elsewhere when it doesn't conflict with a TNA show so that people won't not sign with TNA because they're worried that they'll be stuck in a deal that won't let them work elsewhere but then only pays them when they work but doesn't run shows often enough for that to be worth it. TNA specifically
doesn't need to be booking as many shows as possible to keep their people happy and working the way Smoky Mountain did, and thus that can't be used as an argument in favor of running a show like this with some low-level indy that will draw, like three-hundred people at most.
cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
By that argument, how small does NJPW seem when they go to do a ROH show, or CMLL when they go do a Koruaken Hall match? If you treat all promotions as big deals and don't go out trying to selfishly put yourself over, then you make your work together seem bigger than it really is. PROGRESS and EVOLVE will always be seen as stooges to WWE because WWE is the Kevin Nash of promotions, but NJPW and CMLL and ROH and RevPro manage to put each other as over as possible so that when a NJPW wrestler does something somewhere, they can proudly mention it.
If NJPW is drawing ROH's biggest crowds, then it makes them look bigger than ROH. CMLL in Koruaken Hall I see more as a long-lasting partnership. I think NJPW is millions of times more loyal to NJPW than they are to ROH (or RevPro). If Don Callis was asked to book AAA instead of TNA, NJPW would never have let him do it while still working for them because of their relationship to NJPW.
Yes, ROH, NJPW, CMLL, and RevPro put each other over to make things seem bigger, just like TNA does with NOAH and AAA/The Crash/both of them/whoever else in Mexico they're working with this week. Those are promotions that, like TNA, either are a big deal or still feel like a big deal in some way because they have the history of having been a big deal. That is MUCH different than working with No-Name Championship Wrestling.
And let's be fair here: WWE is the Hulk Hogan of promotions, not the Kevin Nash of promotions.
Oooh... this is a fun game!
ROH is Ric Flair, though currently in the clearly way past his prime 2007 Ric Flair situation, where the only reason people care about him are nostalgic name-value and his connection to a hard-working but also political powerful though also somewhat over-hyped/over-pushed Triple H of current wrestling promotions: New Japan.
CMLL is Orton-their good pal and always a force to be reckoned with, but sometimes losing his top-tier status due to some political mess.
AAA is Alberto Del Rio- flashes of greatness undermined by large helpings of "WHAT THE F*CK IS WRONG WITH THIS GUY?!"
wXw is Regal, doing his own thing and being really great at it and people are only now starting to figure it out.
TNA is Sid Vicious- a big deal at times who somehow manages to screw it up and fade away only to come back and feel like a big deal again, rinse, wash, repeat.
ECW was Goldberg- in some ways very repetitive but brought a new feel to things, had a relatively short run but managed to be remembered very positively for it.
Dragon Gate is... Pentagon Jr.- very spotty but has many fun aspects if you're into that, and really knows how to deliver the intensity
EVOLVE is Zack Sabre Jr. (or maybe Thatcher)- a something of a niche style, but consistently great at it
PWG is RVD- The first ten years or so are the pre-leg break RVD, working very hard and getting noticed for a much more laid back promo style while maintaining top-notch leg-work. The past five years or so have been late-ECW/WWE/TNA RVD. The style has become less palatable to some parts of smark-world while others still love it, and has managed to maintain and excellent reputation as well as it's nonconformist charm while still succeeding at mainstreaming itself via attention from major players in the industry.
Defy is Eddie Gilbert- over big in their home territory but never really feeling like that big of a player elsewhere.