IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Everything that is happening in the wrestling world.
Post Reply
User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16356
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by cero2k » Aug 7th, '18, 11:45

Source: impactwrestling.com


IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War LIVE on TWITCH Sunday Aug 19, 4pm ET

IMPACT Wrestling and Next Generation Wrestling (NGW) Present “the UnCivil War” LIVE on Sunday, August 19th on Twitch. It all goes down in Knoxville, TN and you will have the chance to see some of our biggest stars compete live and in person. This is our first show with NGW and we can’t wait for everyone to see this show live on Twitch around the world!

Card:
Moose vs Hoodrich
Joey Ryan vs Eli Drake
Matt Cross vs Sami Callihan
Menace & AR Fox vs Rich Swann & Matt Sydal
Nicole Pain vs Su Yung
Lennie Stratton vs Eddie Edwards
Trevor Lee vs Myron Reed
War Kings vs Lynch Mob



User avatar
KILLdozer
Posts: 4188
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 22:54
Favorite Wrestler: Idk
Location: Ocean Springs,MS.

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by KILLdozer » Aug 7th, '18, 12:23

Who...?
When they come, they'll come at what you love.

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20634
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 7th, '18, 12:30

KILLdozer wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 12:23
Who...?
This was my reaction, too. An Impact vs. Lucha Underground show is one thing. Impact vs. Some Random Indy makes Impact look fourth-rate.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
Beyond Flesh
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16356
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by cero2k » Aug 7th, '18, 12:35

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 12:30
KILLdozer wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 12:23
Who...?
This was my reaction, too. An Impact vs. Lucha Underground show is one thing. Impact vs. Some Random Indy makes Impact look fourth-rate.
not to me, i see it as a positive move to work and include as many promotions they can. Get eyes on smaller promotions and help everyone in the industry grow

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20634
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 7th, '18, 12:50

cero2k wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 12:35
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 12:30
KILLdozer wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 12:23
Who...?
This was my reaction, too. An Impact vs. Lucha Underground show is one thing. Impact vs. Some Random Indy makes Impact look fourth-rate.
not to me, i see it as a positive move to work and include as many promotions they can. Get eyes on smaller promotions and help everyone in the industry grow
Then present a show together. Don't present it as "A vs. B" so that you don't look like your'e stuck having to work with the most small-time of promotions while ROH is working with NJPW, CMLL, and RevPro and PROGRESS is working with EVOLVE and WWE and wXw. It's not even a situation like MCW or wXw from a few years ago where they weren't big enough to be a name on the map but were at least the biggest promotion in their country. TNA is having a show with a promotion that has never run more than seven shows in a year, and aside from 2016 has always run five or less. It's a no-buzz geek indy with no names. TNA gets nothing out of this.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
Beyond Flesh
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16356
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by cero2k » Aug 7th, '18, 14:28

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 12:50
cero2k wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 12:35
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 12:30


This was my reaction, too. An Impact vs. Lucha Underground show is one thing. Impact vs. Some Random Indy makes Impact look fourth-rate.
not to me, i see it as a positive move to work and include as many promotions they can. Get eyes on smaller promotions and help everyone in the industry grow
Then present a show together. Don't present it as "A vs. B" so that you don't look like your'e stuck having to work with the most small-time of promotions while ROH is working with NJPW, CMLL, and RevPro and PROGRESS is working with EVOLVE and WWE and wXw. It's not even a situation like MCW or wXw from a few years ago where they weren't big enough to be a name on the map but were at least the biggest promotion in their country. TNA is having a show with a promotion that has never run more than seven shows in a year, and aside from 2016 has always run five or less. It's a no-buzz geek indy with no names. TNA gets nothing out of this.
except in all of your examples, all the lower companies always look like lackeys getting fed a bone and sucking up to their master. This doesn't lower Impact, it rises NGW and their talent, because now they'll get some eyes on them. It gives Impact a good show to put on their twitch channel so they can promote the channel and get some bookings for their talent in between tapings, it is a positive move for both promotions. A vs B are exciting shows, they present new match ups and a reason to care about one-off matches if you side with either promotion.

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20634
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 7th, '18, 16:04

cero2k wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 14:28
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 12:50
cero2k wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 12:35


not to me, i see it as a positive move to work and include as many promotions they can. Get eyes on smaller promotions and help everyone in the industry grow
Then present a show together. Don't present it as "A vs. B" so that you don't look like your'e stuck having to work with the most small-time of promotions while ROH is working with NJPW, CMLL, and RevPro and PROGRESS is working with EVOLVE and WWE and wXw. It's not even a situation like MCW or wXw from a few years ago where they weren't big enough to be a name on the map but were at least the biggest promotion in their country. TNA is having a show with a promotion that has never run more than seven shows in a year, and aside from 2016 has always run five or less. It's a no-buzz geek indy with no names. TNA gets nothing out of this.
except in all of your examples, all the lower companies always look like lackeys getting fed a bone and sucking up to their master. This doesn't lower Impact, it rises NGW and their talent, because now they'll get some eyes on them. It gives Impact a good show to put on their twitch channel so they can promote the channel and get some bookings for their talent in between tapings, it is a positive move for both promotions. A vs B are exciting shows, they present new match ups and a reason to care about one-off matches if you side with either promotion.
I totally disagree with your characterization of the relationships. I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of and value of the bones that WWE throws to PROGRESS and especially to EVOLVE, and in those two cases as well as the case of NJPW and CMLL and NJPW and RevPro, it is a lot more like the smaller companies are performing a service for the larger ones- creating a place outside of the bigger company where the talent can go to develop while keeping the talent away from their competitors (WWE if you're NJPW, and TNA or ROH/NJPW if you're WWE), with PROGRESS/Gabe having the ability to help WWE out by testing people out for attitude and commitment and such before WWE spends any money on them, while CMLL performs the service of providing NJPW with a special attraction tour once a year, plus some other special attraction guys to fill out their jr. heavyweight tournaments.
ROH and RevPro and ROH and CMLL seem just as happy to work together as not (I don't think RevPro was involved at all in ROH's May UK tour, as they used a lot of freelance talent), and ROH and CMLL don't really do anything except send each other talent for the occasional show. The only relationship that really comes off to me "master/servant" is that between ROH and New Japan, and I think the reason for that is almost entirely due to Delirious' lazy booking where he pretty much purposely rides on New Japan's coattails rather than putting any thought into trying to book his own stuff for his promotion. That's why ROH's entire promotional philosophy for about the past seventeen months (if not longer, but Daniels' title win does feel like something of a turning point to me) has been "come see the stars of Bullet Club/New Japan/Being The Elite/sometimes CMLL (oh and also Dalton Castle, Jay Lethal and Silas Young if he's feuding with one of those two) live in your town!" and they book mostly a bunch of random tag matches with no consequences while any sort of actual story about anyone else is occasionally given lip service but never actually goes anywhere. Compare that to CMLL or RevPro, who actually try to book their own angles and just use whatever New Japan or ROH guys happen to be around to enhance their storylines.

Promoting the Twitch channel is nice and all, but the idea of "The Stars of TNA vs. "a bunch of nobodies from a promotion that even your friends who watch indy wrestling probably haven't heard of before" doesn't strike me as exciting. I would make a heavy bet that the only people this will draw attention from are die-hard TNA fans or people who are already fans of NGW (almost all of whom already know Impact). The "it gets your talent bookings" thing is a nice thought, but TNA nowadays specifically sets up their contracts to let talent take pretty much whatever outside bookings they want, so it's not a situation like it was a few years ago where people were trapped in exclusive TNA contracts but weren't getting paid much because TNA was barely putting on any shows. In that situation then it would make sense along the same lines that Cornette used with Smoky Mountain when he would have no problem putting in the effort to run a show even if he only made a hundred bucks on it at end of the day because he needed to keep his guys in the area and working so that they wouldn't sign with WWF or WCW or fly off to live in Philly/NJ/NYC indies or Portland or Mexico or Puerto Rico or Germany where they would have more steady work.
I also think that working with a much smaller promotion like this while also seemingly working with ROH earlier this year and LU and so many others makes TNA feel like the hanger-on promotion. I'm not happy with what the ROH/NJPW relationship has done to ROH, but at least they feel like they are only really hanging on to NJPW, with the others coming on due to NJPW's relationships with them rather than ROH particularly wanting to work with CMLL or RevPro, and ROH and CMLL feel equal, while RevPro feels slightly lesser than ROH, but still at least like a force in their own territory. TNA feels like they're almost desperate to work with absolutely anyone, no matter how small, because they need the attention. It's not a good look, IMO. If they had some previously established relationship with NGW it would be one thing, but they really don't.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
Beyond Flesh
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16356
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by cero2k » Aug 7th, '18, 22:51

oh, no, i don't think the bones that WWE throws at PROGRESS/EVOLVE/ICW are worthy anything, at least not to us outside of the Flavor-Aid line. This is why I see them as total lackeys, stooges to WWE, because Gabe/Glenn/Dallas all cream themselves when they can say woop woop [insert wwe talent] is coming! They've thrown away tons of things just for WWE-senpai to notice them.
compare it with how CMLL and NJPW treat each other, that is a healthy relationship where both companies gain something and neither is trying to become daddy of the other. NJPW has CMLL shows in their network and it's not like they asked Sofia Alonso to favor wrestlers that are more likely to do NJPW than AJPW. ROH is more star struck with NJPW, but they still have a constant exchange of talent that for the most part benefits both parties, the ROH guys aren't just jobbing to NJPW guys and not all the NJPW guys go to ROH to be put over.

Do you find exciting that Regal goes to EVOLVE and takes center stage in their posters? or that Triple H randomly appears at ICW and throws a bunch of PR cheap pops? This NGW show at least does have talent that excites me like Fox and Cross. AR Fox vs Matt Sydal fuck yes! and I get to check out new talent, and I hope that all the Impact guys win. It's a random show, I don't mind if the Impact guys squash all the NGW, at least it's not a bunch of WWE guys dominating our 'prestigious' SSS16 tournament. There's nothing wrong with grabbing a small promotion and booking it against your talent, that would be a positive bone to throw out. Impact works with a lot on indie promotions to do some matches for their storylines so they can later play them, so they're naturally help each other out. We just have different perspectives, Impact doesn't seem desperate of anything, they're just being friendly with everyone, regardless of the size, they're gonna do this show, and then do the Jericho cruise, and then probably Triplemania, you can play with everyone and not make anyone look like your subordinates. This industry needs more companies working together, treating each other at the same level, less selfish moves trying to always be the one getting more bang for your buck.

User avatar
KILLdozer
Posts: 4188
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 22:54
Favorite Wrestler: Idk
Location: Ocean Springs,MS.

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by KILLdozer » Aug 7th, '18, 23:18

Nonetheless I can see it as being just a show to watch for the entertainment value...even though I don't care about either of them regardless.
When they come, they'll come at what you love.

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20634
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 8th, '18, 09:07

cero2k wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 22:51
oh, no, i don't think the bones that WWE throws at PROGRESS/EVOLVE/ICW are worthy anything, at least not to us outside of the Flavor-Aid line. This is why I see them as total lackeys, stooges to WWE, because Gabe/Glenn/Dallas all cream themselves when they can say woop woop [insert wwe talent] is coming! They've thrown away tons of things just for WWE-senpai to notice them.
You're better equipped to talk about PROGRESS than I am but what has EVOLVE "thrown away" just for a WWE favor?
cero2k wrote:
Aug 7th, '18, 22:51
Do you find exciting that Regal goes to EVOLVE and takes center stage in their posters? or that Triple H randomly appears at ICW and throws a bunch of PR cheap pops? This NGW show at least does have talent that excites me like Fox and Cross. AR Fox vs Matt Sydal fuck yes! and I get to check out new talent, and I hope that all the Impact guys win. It's a random show, I don't mind if the Impact guys squash all the NGW, at least it's not a bunch of WWE guys dominating our 'prestigious' SSS16 tournament. There's nothing wrong with grabbing a small promotion and booking it against your talent, that would be a positive bone to throw out. Impact works with a lot on indie promotions to do some matches for their storylines so they can later play them, so they're naturally help each other out. We just have different perspectives, Impact doesn't seem desperate of anything, they're just being friendly with everyone, regardless of the size, they're gonna do this show, and then do the Jericho cruise, and then probably Triplemania, you can play with everyone and not make anyone look like your subordinates. This industry needs more companies working together, treating each other at the same level, less selfish moves trying to always be the one getting more bang for your buck.
Am I excited when they say Regal will be showing up at EVOLVE? Not really. But that's because WWE won't let him on the live stream. But when he (or Sami Zayn, or someone else) has shown up in front of the crowd, he has always been involved in some sort of segment that did give someone sort of storyline mission.

ICW's cheap pops are just that: cheap pops. They don't mean sh*t to me, but neither to anyone else's.
I lost interested in Matt Cross about eight years ago. He can do flips and he's had the occasional good match. So what? As far as indy high-flyers go, he feels very bottom of the barrel.
You hope that the TNA guys all squash the NGW guys? Well then doesn't that defeat your stated purpose above of this helping NGW?
I think Impact taping matches for their storylines in other promotions makes Impact look small-time. It's a reminder that they're not actually running very often, and shows that the "stars" of Impact can't draw that many people, even on a show where they are a big special attraction.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
Beyond Flesh
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16356
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by cero2k » Aug 8th, '18, 11:42

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
You're better equipped to talk about PROGRESS than I am but what has EVOLVE "thrown away" just for a WWE favor?
I honestly believe that EVOLVE's booking heavily favors wrestlers that WWE is interested in. I feel like they would have crowned Riddle a long time ago and given him a proper reign if not for that dumb story that Regal wouldn't sign him until he won the title, and if Gabe pays as much attention as you say he has, I have no reason to believe otherwise. WWN title to me is an excuse to crown the guys that Gabe actually would want as EVOLVE champs. There is a lot of favoritism in EVOLVE for WWE-flavored guys.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
Am I excited when they say Regal will be showing up at EVOLVE? Not really. But that's because WWE won't let him on the live stream. But when he (or Sami Zayn, or someone else) has shown up in front of the crowd, he has always been involved in some sort of segment that did give someone sort of storyline mission.
that's the least you can do, but it's not like they ever come back and work a program.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
ICW's cheap pops are just that: cheap pops. They don't mean sh*t to me, but neither to anyone else's.
I lost interested in Matt Cross about eight years ago. He can do flips and he's had the occasional good match. So what? As far as indy high-flyers go, he feels very bottom of the barrel.
They mean a lot to a lot of , excuse my french, marks, that's how cheap WWE's bones are that ICW is willing to play game with WWE for them.

If you personally don't like Cross that is completely understandable, but beyond the point. You can get excited for Sami Zayn going to EVOLVE, but I really haven't cared for him since he unmasked.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
You hope that the TNA guys all squash the NGW guys? Well then doesn't that defeat your stated purpose above of this helping NGW?
I think Impact taping matches for their storylines in other promotions makes Impact look small-time. It's a reminder that they're not actually running very often, and shows that the "stars" of Impact can't draw that many people, even on a show where they are a big special attraction.
I don't really need the NGW guys to have a 30 minute classic or to win matches to appreciate who is worth following. If they go in there, have a 5-10 minute match and lose to the 'stars', that is more than enough and it still got eyes on those guys.

If not running very often was a problem, NXT would be the shittiest show in WWE, yet it's not. What does it matter if they don't run often? that's why you run shows like this co-promoted shows. And you may think that taping matches in random indies makes them look small-time, I see it as their storylines are not encapsulated to this dumb 'Impact Universe' where other promotions don't exist or where your wrestles don't go all over the world to wrestle, to me this makes the wrestlers look bigger when you suddenly see Cage fight off Sugiura, or when you see Eddie do a run in on a random callihan match and escalate a story.

By that argument, how small does NJPW seem when they go to do a ROH show, or CMLL when they go do a Koruaken Hall match? If you treat all promotions as big deals and don't go out trying to selfishly put yourself over, then you make your work together seem bigger than it really is. PROGRESS and EVOLVE will always be seen as stooges to WWE because WWE is the Kevin Nash of promotions, but NJPW and CMLL and ROH and RevPro manage to put each other as over as possible so that when a NJPW wrestler does something somewhere, they can proudly mention it.

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20634
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 8th, '18, 15:26

cero2k wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
You're better equipped to talk about PROGRESS than I am but what has EVOLVE "thrown away" just for a WWE favor?
I honestly believe that EVOLVE's booking heavily favors wrestlers that WWE is interested in. I feel like they would have crowned Riddle a long time ago and given him a proper reign if not for that dumb story that Regal wouldn't sign him until he won the title, and if Gabe pays as much attention as you say he has, I have no reason to believe otherwise. WWN title to me is an excuse to crown the guys that Gabe actually would want as EVOLVE champs. There is a lot of favoritism in EVOLVE for WWE-flavored guys.
I totally disagree. Gabe puts the title on great wrestlers and WWE is interested in great wrestlers. Remember that the two champions before Riddle- Zack & Thatcher, who held the belt for well over two and a half years combined- are not guys WWE has really had any interest in. Gabe is incentivized to feature guys WWE is interested in, yes, but in roles where it won't cause too many problems if WWE swoops in and signs them.
Just look at the product right now: In the past few months he has lost his three major centerpieces (Riddle and Lee to WWE, ZSJ to New Japan), plus either Tracy Williams or Stokely are at least leaving EVOLVE, but that probably means getting signed by WWE, too) and he really hasn't had time to build up replacements for them other than Darby and Theory, who still feel like midcarders on the rise rather than main eventers), hence the Shane Strickland heel mega-push. Some of that undoubtedly has to do with people seemingly leaving for other reasons (Yehi, ACH, Ethan Page, and reportedly Thatcher just doesn't have any more dates booked) so he lost a good chunk of the guys he was probably hoping to use in the interim (just for this reason, I wouldn't be shocked to see Thatcher come back, and my guess is that this played a big factor in his decision to bring in Janela, who while very good, just doesn't come off as an "EVOLVE" type of guy).


The Regal/Riddle thing was more of something to get over Riddle's arrogance and entitlement, which was causing problems within Catchpoint at the time, and which Riddle would need to overcome by the end of the year to become the "face of the WWN" top babyface once Gargano left. It also served to build up to Riddle's title shot against Thatcher at the next show. I don't think it has ever been mentioned since, to the point where I thought you were confusing it with the more recent similar thing they did with Austin Theory, whose entire gimmick is that he is using EVOLVE (and FIP, and the rest of the WWN) as a stepping stone to go to WWE.
cero2k wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
Am I excited when they say Regal will be showing up at EVOLVE? Not really. But that's because WWE won't let him on the live stream. But when he (or Sami Zayn, or someone else) has shown up in front of the crowd, he has always been involved in some sort of segment that did give someone sort of storyline mission.
that's the least you can do, but it's not like they ever come back and work a program.
No, but that's an unrealistic expectation, at least as far as the WWE/EVOLVE relationship has always been. WWE has treated EVOLVE like everyone else in that respect, where a guy is allowed to finish up his dates, but then he can't wrestle anywhere else. This Cole/WALTER match was the first time WWE sent someone under full-time WWE contract to wrestle a match in EVOLVE. If you can't use the guy in a physical way and have no guarantee that he'll come back, then you need to come up with some other way to use him.
cero2k wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
ICW's cheap pops are just that: cheap pops. They don't mean sh*t to me, but neither to anyone else's.
I lost interested in Matt Cross about eight years ago. He can do flips and he's had the occasional good match. So what? As far as indy high-flyers go, he feels very bottom of the barrel.
They mean a lot to a lot of , excuse my french, marks, that's how cheap WWE's bones are that ICW is willing to play game with WWE for them.
I meant to say "neither do anyone else's [cheap pops mean anything to me]." Sorry about the typo.
I totally agree with you about ICW, though. I've always found them to be a very cult-y promotion. Their top guy was freakin' GRADO for G-d's sake.
cero2k wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
If you personally don't like Cross that is completely understandable, but beyond the point. You can get excited for Sami Zayn going to EVOLVE, but I really haven't cared for him since he unmasked.
I don't really get excited for an NXT guy making an EVOLVE appearance, but I appreciate that Gabe finds a way to give it some value. As for Zayn in particular, you didn't care for his NXT Title chase?
cero2k wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
You hope that the TNA guys all squash the NGW guys? Well then doesn't that defeat your stated purpose above of this helping NGW?
I think Impact taping matches for their storylines in other promotions makes Impact look small-time. It's a reminder that they're not actually running very often, and shows that the "stars" of Impact can't draw that many people, even on a show where they are a big special attraction.
I don't really need the NGW guys to have a 30 minute classic or to win matches to appreciate who is worth following. If they go in there, have a 5-10 minute match and lose to the 'stars', that is more than enough and it still got eyes on those guys.
Losing to the stars in ten minutes makes you a JTTS. It's not enough time to see if someone is really good. It's enough time to say "I'd like to try to find more of this guy," but with so much other product out there, no one is going to put that time in because there is WWE, TNA, ROH, NJPW, CMLL, MLW, PWG, EVOLVE, wXw, PROGRESS, RevPro, Defiant, AAW, SHINE, All Japan, LU, NOAH, Dragon Gate, Beyond, CZW, CHIKARA, etc. all out there begging for attention and with more mythos and behind them and bigger names in front of the camera.

cero2k wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
If not running very often was a problem, NXT would be the shittiest show in WWE, yet it's not. What does it matter if they don't run often? that's why you run shows like this co-promoted shows. And you may think that taping matches in random indies makes them look small-time, I see it as their storylines are not encapsulated to this dumb 'Impact Universe' where other promotions don't exist or where your wrestles don't go all over the world to wrestle, to me this makes the wrestlers look bigger when you suddenly see Cage fight off Sugiura, or when you see Eddie do a run in on a random callihan match and escalate a story.
NXT actually runs A LOT more often than TNA does, but the point has more to do with the way TNA has purposely structured their contracts. You listed one of the reasons for running this show as "it gets your talents bookings between tapings." What I'm saying is that in TNA, that's irrelevant because they have strategically chosen to structure their contracts to allow their wrestlers to work elsewhere when it doesn't conflict with a TNA show so that people won't not sign with TNA because they're worried that they'll be stuck in a deal that won't let them work elsewhere but then only pays them when they work but doesn't run shows often enough for that to be worth it. TNA specifically doesn't need to be booking as many shows as possible to keep their people happy and working the way Smoky Mountain did, and thus that can't be used as an argument in favor of running a show like this with some low-level indy that will draw, like three-hundred people at most.
cero2k wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 11:42
By that argument, how small does NJPW seem when they go to do a ROH show, or CMLL when they go do a Koruaken Hall match? If you treat all promotions as big deals and don't go out trying to selfishly put yourself over, then you make your work together seem bigger than it really is. PROGRESS and EVOLVE will always be seen as stooges to WWE because WWE is the Kevin Nash of promotions, but NJPW and CMLL and ROH and RevPro manage to put each other as over as possible so that when a NJPW wrestler does something somewhere, they can proudly mention it.
If NJPW is drawing ROH's biggest crowds, then it makes them look bigger than ROH. CMLL in Koruaken Hall I see more as a long-lasting partnership. I think NJPW is millions of times more loyal to NJPW than they are to ROH (or RevPro). If Don Callis was asked to book AAA instead of TNA, NJPW would never have let him do it while still working for them because of their relationship to NJPW.
Yes, ROH, NJPW, CMLL, and RevPro put each other over to make things seem bigger, just like TNA does with NOAH and AAA/The Crash/both of them/whoever else in Mexico they're working with this week. Those are promotions that, like TNA, either are a big deal or still feel like a big deal in some way because they have the history of having been a big deal. That is MUCH different than working with No-Name Championship Wrestling.

And let's be fair here: WWE is the Hulk Hogan of promotions, not the Kevin Nash of promotions.



Oooh... this is a fun game!


ROH is Ric Flair, though currently in the clearly way past his prime 2007 Ric Flair situation, where the only reason people care about him are nostalgic name-value and his connection to a hard-working but also political powerful though also somewhat over-hyped/over-pushed Triple H of current wrestling promotions: New Japan.

CMLL is Orton-their good pal and always a force to be reckoned with, but sometimes losing his top-tier status due to some political mess.

AAA is Alberto Del Rio- flashes of greatness undermined by large helpings of "WHAT THE F*CK IS WRONG WITH THIS GUY?!"

wXw is Regal, doing his own thing and being really great at it and people are only now starting to figure it out.

TNA is Sid Vicious- a big deal at times who somehow manages to screw it up and fade away only to come back and feel like a big deal again, rinse, wash, repeat.

ECW was Goldberg- in some ways very repetitive but brought a new feel to things, had a relatively short run but managed to be remembered very positively for it.

Dragon Gate is... Pentagon Jr.- very spotty but has many fun aspects if you're into that, and really knows how to deliver the intensity

EVOLVE is Zack Sabre Jr. (or maybe Thatcher)- a something of a niche style, but consistently great at it

PWG is RVD- The first ten years or so are the pre-leg break RVD, working very hard and getting noticed for a much more laid back promo style while maintaining top-notch leg-work. The past five years or so have been late-ECW/WWE/TNA RVD. The style has become less palatable to some parts of smark-world while others still love it, and has managed to maintain and excellent reputation as well as it's nonconformist charm while still succeeding at mainstreaming itself via attention from major players in the industry.

Defy is Eddie Gilbert- over big in their home territory but never really feeling like that big of a player elsewhere.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
Beyond Flesh
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16356
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by cero2k » Aug 9th, '18, 09:57

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 15:26

I totally disagree. Gabe puts the title on great wrestlers and WWE is interested in great wrestlers. Remember that the two champions before Riddle- Zack & Thatcher, who held the belt for well over two and a half years combined- are not guys WWE has really had any interest in. Gabe is incentivized to feature guys WWE is interested in, yes, but in roles where it won't cause too many problems if WWE swoops in and signs them.
Just look at the product right now: In the past few months he has lost his three major centerpieces (Riddle and Lee to WWE, ZSJ to New Japan), plus either Tracy Williams or Stokely are at least leaving EVOLVE, but that probably means getting signed by WWE, too) and he really hasn't had time to build up replacements for them other than Darby and Theory, who still feel like midcarders on the rise rather than main eventers), hence the Shane Strickland heel mega-push. Some of that undoubtedly has to do with people seemingly leaving for other reasons (Yehi, ACH, Ethan Page, and reportedly Thatcher just doesn't have any more dates booked) so he lost a good chunk of the guys he was probably hoping to use in the interim (just for this reason, I wouldn't be shocked to see Thatcher come back, and my guess is that this played a big factor in his decision to bring in Janela, who while very good, just doesn't come off as an "EVOLVE" type of guy).
Thatcher was the champ when Gabe and Hunter started working together, so he was already there. WWE totally wanted Sabre, CWC, they offered a contract, and Sabre rejected them. I still believe that Riddle would have taken the title earlier. Tracy Williams and Yehi are perfect examples to me to great guys that should have made it to the top one way or another. Austin Theory is 100% being groomed for WWE too.

You mentioning all the guys that are leaving, kinda makes me wonder if WWE has now pushed EVOLVE to the side now that they have a prettier toy in PROGRESS and their talent pool.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
The Regal/Riddle thing was more of something to get over Riddle's arrogance and entitlement, which was causing problems within Catchpoint at the time, and which Riddle would need to overcome by the end of the year to become the "face of the WWN" top babyface once Gargano left. It also served to build up to Riddle's title shot against Thatcher at the next show. I don't think it has ever been mentioned since, to the point where I thought you were confusing it with the more recent similar thing they did with Austin Theory, whose entire gimmick is that he is using EVOLVE (and FIP, and the rest of the WWN) as a stepping stone to go to WWE.
It was a big deal for a while, if I remembered it, I would expect Gabe to remember it too, and look at it, he won the title, few months later, lost it because he is going to WWE. It all plays out.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
Losing to the stars in ten minutes makes you a JTTS. It's not enough time to see if someone is really good. It's enough time to say "I'd like to try to find more of this guy," but with so much other product out there, no one is going to put that time in because there is WWE, TNA, ROH, NJPW, CMLL, MLW, PWG, EVOLVE, wXw, PROGRESS, RevPro, Defiant, AAW, SHINE, All Japan, LU, NOAH, Dragon Gate, Beyond, CZW, CHIKARA, etc. all out there begging for attention and with more mythos and behind them and bigger names in front of the camera.
They could have the next Okada and I'd still not start watching it due to the same reason, but if you see some talent that you like, you start recognizing his/her name and pay attention when they appear in any of the promotions mentioned above.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
NXT actually runs A LOT more often than TNA does, but the point has more to do with the way TNA has purposely structured their contracts. You listed one of the reasons for running this show as "it gets your talents bookings between tapings." What I'm saying is that in TNA, that's irrelevant because they have strategically chosen to structure their contracts to allow their wrestlers to work elsewhere when it doesn't conflict with a TNA show so that people won't not sign with TNA because they're worried that they'll be stuck in a deal that won't let them work elsewhere but then only pays them when they work but doesn't run shows often enough for that to be worth it. TNA specifically doesn't need to be booking as many shows as possible to keep their people happy and working the way Smoky Mountain did, and thus that can't be used as an argument in favor of running a show like this with some low-level indy that will draw, like three-hundred people at most.
They don't have to, they could cut a lot of costs actually, but this year, Impact is slowly getting back on their feet and that should include more and more house shows. Doing more live shows like this keeps the brand making noise, a show out there if you feel like taking a break from the 700th hr of WWE. it shows that they're working. Taping-wise, NXT and Impact tape about the same.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
If NJPW is drawing ROH's biggest crowds, then it makes them look bigger than ROH. CMLL in Koruaken Hall I see more as a long-lasting partnership. I think NJPW is millions of times more loyal to NJPW than they are to ROH (or RevPro). If Don Callis was asked to book AAA instead of TNA, NJPW would never have let him do it while still working for them because of their relationship to NJPW.
Yes, ROH, NJPW, CMLL, and RevPro put each other over to make things seem bigger, just like TNA does with NOAH and AAA/The Crash/both of them/whoever else in Mexico they're working with this week. Those are promotions that, like TNA, either are a big deal or still feel like a big deal in some way because they have the history of having been a big deal. That is MUCH different than working with No-Name Championship Wrestling.
No, it's the same, you start from somewhere, it's all about how you treat the relationship. Just for this conversation, now you'll remember when you see the name NGW. This is like signing a new wrestler that hasn't made waves in the indies, you bring him up, have a good showing, and if that wrestler puts up the work, people will notice.



Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
And let's be fair here: WWE is the Hulk Hogan of promotions, not the Kevin Nash of promotions.



Oooh... this is a fun game!


ROH is Ric Flair, though currently in the clearly way past his prime 2007 Ric Flair situation, where the only reason people care about him are nostalgic name-value and his connection to a hard-working but also political powerful though also somewhat over-hyped/over-pushed Triple H of current wrestling promotions: New Japan.

CMLL is Orton-their good pal and always a force to be reckoned with, but sometimes losing his top-tier status due to some political mess.

AAA is Alberto Del Rio- flashes of greatness undermined by large helpings of "WHAT THE F*CK IS WRONG WITH THIS GUY?!"

wXw is Regal, doing his own thing and being really great at it and people are only now starting to figure it out.

TNA is Sid Vicious- a big deal at times who somehow manages to screw it up and fade away only to come back and feel like a big deal again, rinse, wash, repeat.

ECW was Goldberg- in some ways very repetitive but brought a new feel to things, had a relatively short run but managed to be remembered very positively for it.

Dragon Gate is... Pentagon Jr.- very spotty but has many fun aspects if you're into that, and really knows how to deliver the intensity

EVOLVE is Zack Sabre Jr. (or maybe Thatcher)- a something of a niche style, but consistently great at it

PWG is RVD- The first ten years or so are the pre-leg break RVD, working very hard and getting noticed for a much more laid back promo style while maintaining top-notch leg-work. The past five years or so have been late-ECW/WWE/TNA RVD. The style has become less palatable to some parts of smark-world while others still love it, and has managed to maintain and excellent reputation as well as it's nonconformist charm while still succeeding at mainstreaming itself via attention from major players in the industry.

Defy is Eddie Gilbert- over big in their home territory but never really feeling like that big of a player elsewhere.
Hogan, Nash, almost the same thing since they're both all about politicking and getting themselves over while stepping over everyone's feet. Since they're all show, i'll give you that they're more Hogan.

NJPW is like AJ Styles, ALWAYS delivers, but since it's not the mainstream, not a lot of people get to appreciate it. WWE fans undermine it because they can fathom that someone out of their reach is better than them, not until WWE buys them out will they acknowledge their greatness.

ROH are the Dudleyz, started from the ground and made their way up to the top echelons, except at one point, they found a shtick that worked, and trying to appeal to the mainstream, they kept doing the same shtick over and over and over, not realizing that everyone grew past it and now they're just type casted into doing that shtick.

CMLL is Samoa Joe, a little out of shape, bad booking now and then, but when you just focus on the in-ring work, there's gold in there. When the stars align for Joe, nothing is better.

Impact is Eddie Guerrero, hard working, a lot of talent, but way too many bad decisions throughout their life. When you think you're sober, you fall back in, and maybe the same way as Eddie's life, Impact may be finally sober, but the damage was done and the heart attack is inevitable.

AJPW is like Regal too, or Nagata. People think that due to age, physic, style, that they can't go, but I can assure you they can go.

CHIKARA is Colt Cabana, a nich product that since it refuses to change or adapt, they've become stale and only a certain type of fan keeps supporting it.

EVOLVE is Daga. Great wrestling, but no one watches him.

PROGRESS is Kevin Owens, once the top of the indie scene, doing whatever he wanted, getting over with everyone, and then he went mainstream, became WWE's lackey, and now due to bad booking, he's just a shell of their former selves.

PWG is indeed like RVD, chill, never really does it for the money, they enjoy the fun, and everyone loves them.

Dragon Gate, AAA, wXw, and ECW i'll agree with yours too.

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20634
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 9th, '18, 11:08

cero2k wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 09:57
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 15:26

I totally disagree. Gabe puts the title on great wrestlers and WWE is interested in great wrestlers. Remember that the two champions before Riddle- Zack & Thatcher, who held the belt for well over two and a half years combined- are not guys WWE has really had any interest in. Gabe is incentivized to feature guys WWE is interested in, yes, but in roles where it won't cause too many problems if WWE swoops in and signs them.
Just look at the product right now: In the past few months he has lost his three major centerpieces (Riddle and Lee to WWE, ZSJ to New Japan), plus either Tracy Williams or Stokely are at least leaving EVOLVE, but that probably means getting signed by WWE, too) and he really hasn't had time to build up replacements for them other than Darby and Theory, who still feel like midcarders on the rise rather than main eventers), hence the Shane Strickland heel mega-push. Some of that undoubtedly has to do with people seemingly leaving for other reasons (Yehi, ACH, Ethan Page, and reportedly Thatcher just doesn't have any more dates booked) so he lost a good chunk of the guys he was probably hoping to use in the interim (just for this reason, I wouldn't be shocked to see Thatcher come back, and my guess is that this played a big factor in his decision to bring in Janela, who while very good, just doesn't come off as an "EVOLVE" type of guy).
Thatcher was the champ when Gabe and Hunter started working together, so he was already there. WWE totally wanted Sabre, CWC, they offered a contract, and Sabre rejected them. I still believe that Riddle would have taken the title earlier. Tracy Williams and Yehi are perfect examples to me to great guys that should have made it to the top one way or another. Austin Theory is 100% being groomed for WWE too.

You mentioning all the guys that are leaving, kinda makes me wonder if WWE has now pushed EVOLVE to the side now that they have a prettier toy in PROGRESS and their talent pool.
Thatcher had just won the belt when they started working together. If Gabe was only pushing guys WWE wanted, he wouldn't have left the belt on Thatcher for another year and a half. Zack also got the belt after he turned WWE down, and kept it for over a year.
You say "groomed for WWE" like Gabe is having them work a WWE style and only a WWE style. Theory does wrestle more that style, but it's done for heat a la Mike Bennett in his early ROH run. The only other guy I can think of who wrestles that style in the company is Janela, who only just got there and has been wrestling that way LONG before he got to EVOLVE.
ACH leaving seems to be down to ACH being ACH, and Page seems to be a similar thing. Yehi is back working for Gabe in FIP, so my guess is it had more to do with MLW than WWE. With Tracy... it's really just a result of Gabe not switching his singles titles very often. Some people never wind up getting the belt, whic h is what makes getting the belt so special. It's like Hero or Claudio in ROH, or Daniels in Gabe-Era ROH.

As for the PROGRESS thing, there is no reason for WWE to push EVOLVE to the side because the two promotions serve different functions (or at least similar functions but in different regions, which matters now that WWE is trying to make NXT UK an actual thing).
cero2k wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 09:57
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
The Regal/Riddle thing was more of something to get over Riddle's arrogance and entitlement, which was causing problems within Catchpoint at the time, and which Riddle would need to overcome by the end of the year to become the "face of the WWN" top babyface once Gargano left. It also served to build up to Riddle's title shot against Thatcher at the next show. I don't think it has ever been mentioned since, to the point where I thought you were confusing it with the more recent similar thing they did with Austin Theory, whose entire gimmick is that he is using EVOLVE (and FIP, and the rest of the WWN) as a stepping stone to go to WWE.
It was a big deal for a while, if I remembered it, I would expect Gabe to remember it too, and look at it, he won the title, few months later, lost it because he is going to WWE. It all plays out.
It does all play out nicely, but if that was the story then you'd think Gabe would have been pushing that going into the match, not "Matt Riddle prefers his matches with no rope breaks."
cero2k wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 09:57
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
Losing to the stars in ten minutes makes you a JTTS. It's not enough time to see if someone is really good. It's enough time to say "I'd like to try to find more of this guy," but with so much other product out there, no one is going to put that time in because there is WWE, TNA, ROH, NJPW, CMLL, MLW, PWG, EVOLVE, wXw, PROGRESS, RevPro, Defiant, AAW, SHINE, All Japan, LU, NOAH, Dragon Gate, Beyond, CZW, CHIKARA, etc. all out there begging for attention and with more mythos and behind them and bigger names in front of the camera.
They could have the next Okada and I'd still not start watching it due to the same reason, but if you see some talent that you like, you start recognizing his/her name and pay attention when they appear in any of the promotions mentioned above.
But you'd pay attention to them when they started appearing in one of the above promotions that you already pay attention to anyway and you saw they were good.

cero2k wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 09:57
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
NXT actually runs A LOT more often than TNA does, but the point has more to do with the way TNA has purposely structured their contracts. You listed one of the reasons for running this show as "it gets your talents bookings between tapings." What I'm saying is that in TNA, that's irrelevant because they have strategically chosen to structure their contracts to allow their wrestlers to work elsewhere when it doesn't conflict with a TNA show so that people won't not sign with TNA because they're worried that they'll be stuck in a deal that won't let them work elsewhere but then only pays them when they work but doesn't run shows often enough for that to be worth it. TNA specifically doesn't need to be booking as many shows as possible to keep their people happy and working the way Smoky Mountain did, and thus that can't be used as an argument in favor of running a show like this with some low-level indy that will draw, like three-hundred people at most.
They don't have to, they could cut a lot of costs actually, but this year, Impact is slowly getting back on their feet and that should include more and more house shows. Doing more live shows like this keeps the brand making noise, a show out there if you feel like taking a break from the 700th hr of WWE. it shows that they're working. Taping-wise, NXT and Impact tape about the same.
But NXT runs a lot more house shows. I also think that running a joint house show with a random local indy doesn't create positive buzz. It makes you come off as desperate.

cero2k wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 09:57
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
If NJPW is drawing ROH's biggest crowds, then it makes them look bigger than ROH. CMLL in Koruaken Hall I see more as a long-lasting partnership. I think NJPW is millions of times more loyal to NJPW than they are to ROH (or RevPro). If Don Callis was asked to book AAA instead of TNA, NJPW would never have let him do it while still working for them because of their relationship to NJPW.
Yes, ROH, NJPW, CMLL, and RevPro put each other over to make things seem bigger, just like TNA does with NOAH and AAA/The Crash/both of them/whoever else in Mexico they're working with this week. Those are promotions that, like TNA, either are a big deal or still feel like a big deal in some way because they have the history of having been a big deal. That is MUCH different than working with No-Name Championship Wrestling.
No, it's the same, you start from somewhere, it's all about how you treat the relationship. Just for this conversation, now you'll remember when you see the name NGW. This is like signing a new wrestler that hasn't made waves in the indies, you bring him up, have a good showing, and if that wrestler puts up the work, people will notice.
But that has no benefit for TNA. It's like Dreamer conning every promotion in the US into letting him go on their TV in his House of Hardcore shirt even though there is no reason to bring him in because he's not even close to being a draw.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
Beyond Flesh
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16356
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by cero2k » Aug 9th, '18, 13:22

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 11:08
Thatcher had just won the belt when they started working together. If Gabe was only pushing guys WWE wanted, he wouldn't have left the belt on Thatcher for another year and a half. Zack also got the belt after he turned WWE down, and kept it for over a year.
You say "groomed for WWE" like Gabe is having them work a WWE style and only a WWE style. Theory does wrestle more that style, but it's done for heat a la Mike Bennett in his early ROH run. The only other guy I can think of who wrestles that style in the company is Janela, who only just got there and has been wrestling that way LONG before he got to EVOLVE.
ACH leaving seems to be down to ACH being ACH, and Page seems to be a similar thing. Yehi is back working for Gabe in FIP, so my guess is it had more to do with MLW than WWE. With Tracy... it's really just a result of Gabe not switching his singles titles very often. Some people never wind up getting the belt, whic h is what makes getting the belt so special. It's like Hero or Claudio in ROH, or Daniels in Gabe-Era ROH.

As for the PROGRESS thing, there is no reason for WWE to push EVOLVE to the side because the two promotions serve different functions (or at least similar functions but in different regions, which matters now that WWE is trying to make NXT UK an actual thing).
If Gabe is as good a booker as you say, he already had plans to crown both men and keep the titles on them. Gabe cannot really teach wrestlers the WWE style because EVOLVE doesn't have a school, but he keeps the talent, he puts focus on them to build the names o they can go to NXT as bigger deals. WWE does need EVOLVE or PROGRESS to train wrestlers, they need them to push them, keep them away from the enemy. Theory is already a former WWN champ, and not that you need to have a title to be the top guy, Riddle was arguably the top guy during half of Thatcher's reigns and Sabre's. Tracy while being part of the top stables and storylines, was never treated like a top guy.

PROGRESS and EVOLVE have the same use for WWE. A safe talent pool with people who won't sue you for offering contracts, and a means to fight off the promotions you want to keep down.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
It does all play out nicely, but if that was the story then you'd think Gabe would have been pushing that going into the match, not "Matt Riddle prefers his matches with no rope breaks."
You're saying that Gabe let something important happen and never followed with it? I'm gonna bring this up every time we talk about Gedo.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
But you'd pay attention to them when they started appearing in one of the above promotions that you already pay attention to anyway and you saw they were good.
I'm not like JBL, things matter even before they make it to WWE, or any of the promotions listed above. We're talking about watching a show, not about having to get into a whole new promotion, unless it turns out to be great, which I can only know if i watch the show

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
But NXT runs a lot more house shows. I also think that running a joint house show with a random local indy doesn't create positive buzz. It makes you come off as desperate.
Sure, NXT also has about 50M dollars more at their disposal. To a WWE fan, if NXT does a NXT vs PROGRESS, or NXT vs Crash, or NXT vs PWG show, do you think NXT would look 'desperate' ? It may look like a lot of things, but 'desperate' is not one. You just hate Impact, it's ok.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
But that has no benefit for TNA. It's like Dreamer conning every promotion in the US into letting him go on their TV in his House of Hardcore shirt even though there is no reason to bring him in because he's not even close to being a draw.
So what? Why does it have to be a selfish move that gets you more than people to your twitch channel, money to your guys, exposure to this small company, whatever money you make from the crowd? What if it was NGW asking Impact to co-promote a show?

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20634
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 9th, '18, 14:22

cero2k wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 13:22
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 11:08
Thatcher had just won the belt when they started working together. If Gabe was only pushing guys WWE wanted, he wouldn't have left the belt on Thatcher for another year and a half. Zack also got the belt after he turned WWE down, and kept it for over a year.
You say "groomed for WWE" like Gabe is having them work a WWE style and only a WWE style. Theory does wrestle more that style, but it's done for heat a la Mike Bennett in his early ROH run. The only other guy I can think of who wrestles that style in the company is Janela, who only just got there and has been wrestling that way LONG before he got to EVOLVE.
ACH leaving seems to be down to ACH being ACH, and Page seems to be a similar thing. Yehi is back working for Gabe in FIP, so my guess is it had more to do with MLW than WWE. With Tracy... it's really just a result of Gabe not switching his singles titles very often. Some people never wind up getting the belt, whic h is what makes getting the belt so special. It's like Hero or Claudio in ROH, or Daniels in Gabe-Era ROH.

As for the PROGRESS thing, there is no reason for WWE to push EVOLVE to the side because the two promotions serve different functions (or at least similar functions but in different regions, which matters now that WWE is trying to make NXT UK an actual thing).
If Gabe is as good a booker as you say, he already had plans to crown both men and keep the titles on them. Gabe cannot really teach wrestlers the WWE style because EVOLVE doesn't have a school, but he keeps the talent, he puts focus on them to build the names o they can go to NXT as bigger deals. WWE does need EVOLVE or PROGRESS to train wrestlers, they need them to push them, keep them away from the enemy. Theory is already a former WWN champ, and not that you need to have a title to be the top guy, Riddle was arguably the top guy during half of Thatcher's reigns and Sabre's. Tracy while being part of the top stables and storylines, was never treated like a top guy.

PROGRESS and EVOLVE have the same use for WWE. A safe talent pool with people who won't sue you for offering contracts, and a means to fight off the promotions you want to keep down.
Maybe Gabe felt they were more valuable in other positions, like the way he's using A.R. Fox now. And he gave Yehi the FIP belt for nineteen months, while Tracy got more tag title reigns than anyone else.
WWE doesn't need EVOLVE and PROGRESS to push guys for them. Hunter knows how to make guys look like big deals in NXT all on his own. Aleister Black didn't do too much with either promotion and look at him. Or a guy like Lars Sullivan who never worked indies, or someone like The Velveteen Dream or worked indies but with a different gimmick and was never a big deal. They all got over just fine. Sasha, Bayley, Charlotte, and even Alexa have all gotten over more than Becky Lynch did, and she has by far the most indy cred of any of them.

There was no single "top guy" in EVOLVE. One of the major benefits of Gabe's booking style where he keeps everyone credible is that you get more match-ups that feel like big match-ups because there is no true "top guy" because he knows how to create a situation where anyone can beat anyone. Tracy was a key guy in the tag team division and was the leader of the most important stable in the company, was the main guy feuding with Keith Lee on Stokely's behalf, and was being set off on a big babyface trajectory with Stokely stealing Catchpoint from him. If it turns out that it's Stokely leaving and not Tracy, I can definitely see Tracy being the guy to take the belt off of Strickland.

cero2k wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 13:22
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
It does all play out nicely, but if that was the story then you'd think Gabe would have been pushing that going into the match, not "Matt Riddle prefers his matches with no rope breaks."
You're saying that Gabe let something important happen and never followed with it? I'm gonna bring this up every time we talk about Gedo.
It wasn't important to the idea of Riddle signing with WWE. It was important to establishing the arrogant element of Riddle's character, thinking he was bigger than the team which was something Gulak often scolded him for, and caused major problems between him and TJP as well as him and Tracy. Whether Riddle went to WWE or not, the segment had already served its purpose in his character arc, helping to show us that he was an arrogant heel in March so that we could appreciate how far he has come by September when he turns babyface by saving Gargano.
That is worlds different from Gedo, who just books things that each seem cool or dramatic in the moment, but don't make any sense if you actually try to create a storyboard out of them.

cero2k wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 13:22
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
But NXT runs a lot more house shows. I also think that running a joint house show with a random local indy doesn't create positive buzz. It makes you come off as desperate.
Sure, NXT also has about 50M dollars more at their disposal. To a WWE fan, if NXT does a NXT vs PROGRESS, or NXT vs Crash, or NXT vs PWG show, do you think NXT would look 'desperate' ? It may look like a lot of things, but 'desperate' is not one. You just hate Impact, it's ok.
Because NXT isn't in the situation TNA is in. NXT doesn't have a well-earned reputation for burning fans and constantly doing things that scream "PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" (and then eventually burning the fans like myself who were silly enough to give in and pay attention. (But yes: if I was running NXT, I would never book something like NXT vs. PROGRESS or NXT vs. PWG.)

cero2k wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 13:22
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
But you'd pay attention to them when they started appearing in one of the above promotions that you already pay attention to anyway and you saw they were good.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
But that has no benefit for TNA. It's like Dreamer conning every promotion in the US into letting him go on their TV in his House of Hardcore shirt even though there is no reason to bring him in because he's not even close to being a draw.
So what? Why does it have to be a selfish move that gets you more than people to your twitch channel, money to your guys, exposure to this small company, whatever money you make from the crowd? What if it was NGW asking Impact to co-promote a show?
Because part of proving to fans that you'e not going to revert back to form is to show them that you now understand how to make responsible business decisions. A show like this where you're probably going to lose your ass is not how you do that.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
Beyond Flesh
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16356
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by cero2k » Aug 10th, '18, 15:06

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 11:08
Maybe Gabe felt they were more valuable in other positions, like the way he's using A.R. Fox now. And he gave Yehi the FIP belt for nineteen months, while Tracy got more tag title reigns than anyone else.
WWE doesn't need EVOLVE and PROGRESS to push guys for them. Hunter knows how to make guys look like big deals in NXT all on his own. Aleister Black didn't do too much with either promotion and look at him. Or a guy like Lars Sullivan who never worked indies, or someone like The Velveteen Dream or worked indies but with a different gimmick and was never a big deal. They all got over just fine. Sasha, Bayley, Charlotte, and even Alexa have all gotten over more than Becky Lynch did, and she has by far the most indy cred of any of them.

There was no single "top guy" in EVOLVE. One of the major benefits of Gabe's booking style where he keeps everyone credible is that you get more match-ups that feel like big match-ups because there is no true "top guy" because he knows how to create a situation where anyone can beat anyone. Tracy was a key guy in the tag team division and was the leader of the most important stable in the company, was the main guy feuding with Keith Lee on Stokely's behalf, and was being set off on a big babyface trajectory with Stokely stealing Catchpoint from him. If it turns out that it's Stokely leaving and not Tracy, I can definitely see Tracy being the guy to take the belt off of Strickland.
There's no doubt in that, Catchpoint by themselves pretty much made all the three champions. AR Fox is a former EVOLVE champ and arguably not the top of the indies nor WWE's interest anymore. Yehi winning the FIP is nice, but let's not kid ourselves, you and me know that the FIP title doesn't mean anything. Tracy getting all those title shots and never taking that next step says a lot to me, it's like all those guys in WWE that I feel that are never going to amount to anything other than the enhancement talent to the champion, those people are necessary, but every now and then you need to give them a bone otherwise I stop believing in them. ACH i neve considered an EVOLVE guy, but to see Tracy or Caleb come and go and never really make it does make me feel it was a huge waste. Those guys built EVOLVE.

Yeah, WWE doesn't need them for anything, they're freaking billionaires, but they still use them. NXT lives out of bringing 'the hottest free agent' out there, PROGRESS and EVOLVE can facilitate that when you're not trying to spend that much money. From your three examples, Tommy End was suuper over when he came in, he had a strong following, Lars Sullivan is literally a freak of nature, and Dream is the perfect combination of a good unique character and he did have buzz from Tough Enough, everyone wanted him to win. Look at all your former NXT champs. Not since Bo Dallas have they've had a home grown champion.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
It wasn't important to the idea of Riddle signing with WWE. It was important to establishing the arrogant element of Riddle's character, thinking he was bigger than the team which was something Gulak often scolded him for, and caused major problems between him and TJP as well as him and Tracy. Whether Riddle went to WWE or not, the segment had already served its purpose in his character arc, helping to show us that he was an arrogant heel in March so that we could appreciate how far he has come by September when he turns babyface by saving Gargano.
That is worlds different from Gedo, who just books things that each seem cool or dramatic in the moment, but don't make any sense if you actually try to create a storyboard out of them.
You can do that other ways that don't create a stipulation that is left out there floating. The same way that you kept waiting for Ishii to get his title shot from Okada, I kept waiting for Riddle to win the title so he could go to WWE. We have the same argument, don't do things unless you're gonna follow up on them.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
But NXT runs a lot more house shows. I also think that running a joint house show with a random local indy doesn't create positive buzz. It makes you come off as desperate.
Sure, NXT also has about 50M dollars more at their disposal. To a WWE fan, if NXT does a NXT vs PROGRESS, or NXT vs Crash, or NXT vs PWG show, do you think NXT would look 'desperate' ? It may look like a lot of things, but 'desperate' is not one. You just hate Impact, it's ok.
Because NXT isn't in the situation TNA is in. NXT doesn't have a well-earned reputation for burning fans and constantly doing things that scream "PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" (and then eventually burning the fans like myself who were silly enough to give in and pay attention. (But yes: if I was running NXT, I would never book something like NXT vs. PROGRESS or NXT vs. PWG.)
C'mon, all of WWE is PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME, just on a global scale, and if anything else, nothing Impact has done this year is like that. You're just burnt out and jaded and so anything they do you'll see with a biased eye.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
Because part of proving to fans that you'e not going to revert back to form is to show them that you now understand how to make responsible business decisions. A show like this where you're probably going to lose your ass is not how you do that.
How exactly is this losing or a bad business decision? Most of the venue costs are likely covered by NGW since it's their gear and venue. Impact is likely the one doing the booking. Twitch streaming is cheap since they already have it. Impact is not losing anything here. Honestly, Impact's only loss now a days is the comments of people who still shit on them. Even Papa Meltzer and Uncle Bryan have been saying good things about them

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20634
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: IMPACT x NGW Uncivil War Full Card

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 11th, '18, 22:07

cero2k wrote:
Aug 10th, '18, 15:06
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 9th, '18, 11:08
Maybe Gabe felt they were more valuable in other positions, like the way he's using A.R. Fox now. And he gave Yehi the FIP belt for nineteen months, while Tracy got more tag title reigns than anyone else.
WWE doesn't need EVOLVE and PROGRESS to push guys for them. Hunter knows how to make guys look like big deals in NXT all on his own. Aleister Black didn't do too much with either promotion and look at him. Or a guy like Lars Sullivan who never worked indies, or someone like The Velveteen Dream or worked indies but with a different gimmick and was never a big deal. They all got over just fine. Sasha, Bayley, Charlotte, and even Alexa have all gotten over more than Becky Lynch did, and she has by far the most indy cred of any of them.

There was no single "top guy" in EVOLVE. One of the major benefits of Gabe's booking style where he keeps everyone credible is that you get more match-ups that feel like big match-ups because there is no true "top guy" because he knows how to create a situation where anyone can beat anyone. Tracy was a key guy in the tag team division and was the leader of the most important stable in the company, was the main guy feuding with Keith Lee on Stokely's behalf, and was being set off on a big babyface trajectory with Stokely stealing Catchpoint from him. If it turns out that it's Stokely leaving and not Tracy, I can definitely see Tracy being the guy to take the belt off of Strickland.
There's no doubt in that, Catchpoint by themselves pretty much made all the three champions. AR Fox is a former EVOLVE champ and arguably not the top of the indies nor WWE's interest anymore. Yehi winning the FIP is nice, but let's not kid ourselves, you and me know that the FIP title doesn't mean anything. Tracy getting all those title shots and never taking that next step says a lot to me, it's like all those guys in WWE that I feel that are never going to amount to anything other than the enhancement talent to the champion, those people are necessary, but every now and then you need to give them a bone otherwise I stop believing in them. ACH i neve considered an EVOLVE guy, but to see Tracy or Caleb come and go and never really make it does make me feel it was a huge waste. Those guys built EVOLVE.
Fox is getting booked because he’s got name value, delivers in the ring, is a vet who can work well with young guys, and is a good conduit to students at what many people seem to be saying is one of the top schools in the country. The fact that they’re positioning him as a top guy and he’s not on WWE’s radar negates your own point.
The FIP belt has meant something when Gabe has featured it in his other promotions. I agree that Gabe didn’t do that with Yehi (he is with Theory, though), but the felt was at least used as something to make Yehi look a little bit more important. It was a stepping stone belt, and Yehi signed with MLW before Gabe could start pushing him that next step.
Not winning the big title doesn’t mean someone isn’t being used as a top guy. Are you telling me Hero and Claudio weren’t top guys in ROH? That Steen or Roddy or Davey or Elgin or Punk or Homicide weren’t being used as top guys well before they won the belt? Over the past two years Tracy has been a top guy in the tag team division and feuded with Riddle, Lee, Gulak, Thatcher, and now Catchpoint. How is that not a top guy?
cero2k wrote:
Aug 10th, '18, 15:06

Yeah, WWE doesn't need them for anything, they're freaking billionaires, but they still use them. NXT lives out of bringing 'the hottest free agent' out there, PROGRESS and EVOLVE can facilitate that when you're not trying to spend that much money. From your three examples, Tommy End was suuper over when he came in, he had a strong following, Lars Sullivan is literally a freak of nature, and Dream is the perfect combination of a good unique character and he did have buzz from Tough Enough, everyone wanted him to win. Look at all your former NXT champs. Not since Bo Dallas have they've had a home grown champion.
You and I have different definitions of “home-grown.” I would say that they should get some credit for guys who NXT did put the work in to get over in front of their own audience. I would give them credit for Zayn, to an extent Balor and Almas (I think Vega- a WWE addition- is an indispensable part of the gimmick), I’d give them credit for Ciampa (and Gargano, while we’re at it) because they did put the work in to get the current characters over. And, with Ciampa in particular, the guy we see now is lightyears better than the barely-above-a-spot-monkey they signed.
As for TVD having buzz from Tough Enough… they tried “Patrick.” He flopped. The Velveteen Dream has been a resounding success. That “good, unique character” is an NXT creation.
cero2k wrote:
Aug 10th, '18, 15:06
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
It wasn't important to the idea of Riddle signing with WWE. It was important to establishing the arrogant element of Riddle's character, thinking he was bigger than the team which was something Gulak often scolded him for, and caused major problems between him and TJP as well as him and Tracy. Whether Riddle went to WWE or not, the segment had already served its purpose in his character arc, helping to show us that he was an arrogant heel in March so that we could appreciate how far he has come by September when he turns babyface by saving Gargano.
That is worlds different from Gedo, who just books things that each seem cool or dramatic in the moment, but don't make any sense if you actually try to create a storyboard out of them.
You can do that other ways that don't create a stipulation that is left out there floating. The same way that you kept waiting for Ishii to get his title shot from Okada, I kept waiting for Riddle to win the title so he could go to WWE. We have the same argument, don't do things unless you're gonna follow up on them.
It wasn’t a stipulation in the apuesta sense. It wasn’t “once Riddle wins the Evolve World Title he goes to WWE” and nowhere did anyone say that that was the only thing that Riddle would have to do. It was “if you want to come to my company, you need to prove that you’ve got what it takes, and your cup of tea in the business so far doesn’t do that. Win the top belt in this company, then we’ll talk about you coming to my company.”
And what are you complaining about? Riddle won the title, now he’s going to WWE. He’s just finishing up his indy dates first.
Also, my thing doesn’t utterly destroy the concept of the title making you the undisputed best wrestler in the company for bullsh*t reasons of “friendship” that don’t hold up when you look at what is going on in the company as a whole.
cero2k wrote:
Aug 10th, '18, 15:06
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
But NXT runs a lot more house shows. I also think that running a joint house show with a random local indy doesn't create positive buzz. It makes you come off as desperate.
Sure, NXT also has about 50M dollars more at their disposal. To a WWE fan, if NXT does a NXT vs PROGRESS, or NXT vs Crash, or NXT vs PWG show, do you think NXT would look 'desperate' ? It may look like a lot of things, but 'desperate' is not one. You just hate Impact, it's ok.
1. A “yeah, but they have more money than us so that’s no fair!” argument from TNA holds no water because TNA had a sugar-mommy and an insanely supportive network handing them EVERYTHING and they still managed to f*ck it up through nothing but their own managerial incompetence. TNA got away with being a completely incompetence mess more years than ECW even existed for.
2. I do think it would look desperate if NXT ran an “NXT vs. PROGRESS” or “NXT vs. PWG” or “NXT vs. Crash” show, which is why you don’t see NXT doing that. They set it up so they can present it as their own UK brand or whatever instead, and bring in a few non-PROGRESS people like Dar or Killer Kelly just for good measure.
3. The “to a WWE fan” part is irrelevant, and so is the appearance of TNA running this show to a TNA fan. Anyone who is still a TNA fan will never give up on this company. What TNA needs to be doing is winning back former fans; people who gave up on the company because of how sh*tty it was on a consistent basis and who don’t want to invest their time into it again if they think there is a good chance they’ll give up again within six months because the company will inevitably revert to form and book some idiotic, nonsensical bullsh*t or do a “top heel stable” or “heel authority figure” story yet again. Running a random in front of two hundred people partnering with No-Name Championship Wrestling will not do that.
cero2k wrote:
Aug 10th, '18, 15:06
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07

Because NXT isn't in the situation TNA is in. NXT doesn't have a well-earned reputation for burning fans and constantly doing things that scream "PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" (and then eventually burning the fans like myself who were silly enough to give in and pay attention. (But yes: if I was running NXT, I would never book something like NXT vs. PROGRESS or NXT vs. PWG.)
C'mon, all of WWE is PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME, just on a global scale, and if anything else, nothing Impact has done this year is like that. You're just burnt out and jaded and so anything they do you'll see with a biased eye.
I’m not denying that WWE does that stuff, but WWE has their own way of doing it, which, while extremely annoying, is unique to WWE. When TNA does it, it feels like they’re doing the same sh*t everyone else has already done but they don’t realize it’s out of style.
cero2k wrote:
Aug 10th, '18, 15:06
Big Red Machine wrote:
Aug 8th, '18, 09:07
Because part of proving to fans that you'e not going to revert back to form is to show them that you now understand how to make responsible business decisions. A show like this where you're probably going to lose your ass is not how you do that.
How exactly is this losing or a bad business decision? Most of the venue costs are likely covered by NGW since it's their gear and venue. Impact is likely the one doing the booking. Twitch streaming is cheap since they already have it. Impact is not losing anything here. Honestly, Impact's only loss now a days is the comments of people who still shit on them. Even Papa Meltzer and Uncle Bryan have been saying good things about them
If NGW is paying all of the costs then fine, although I still think it makes TNA look small-time to be someone else’s rent-a-promotion. If Bryan and Dave are saying good things about them then that’s great. I’m not disputing that TNA has vastly improved in the past year. But it’s certainly not done enough to either feel like it’s worth my time to watch just yet as compared to other stuff I could be watching, or to convince me that it won’t nosedive at a moment’s notice.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
Beyond Flesh
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests