NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 3rd, '19, 21:11

cero2k wrote: Jan 3rd, '19, 20:46
Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 3rd, '19, 13:24 It's just so painfully apparent that everything about the match wasn't happening because it made sense but rather because "wouldn't it be so cool if...?"
it's a match in a in a freaking cruise with costumes. don't try to connect everything to canon and make things serious. People paid a million bucks to have fun. If any of this was cannon, people would be complaining that it happened on a private show
It certainly is canon. Flip Gordon won an ROH World Title shot out of it, plus they tried to build up to it on both Being The Elite and at All In. And it wasn't a private show because it was posted on Honor Club (as opposed to last year's Soaring Eagle Cup where Dalton won his world title shot, which was a sold show and has yet to see the light of day).
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by cero2k » Jan 3rd, '19, 21:19

Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 3rd, '19, 21:11
It certainly is canon. Flip Gordon won an ROH World Title shot out of it, plus they tried to build up to it on both Being The Elite and at All In. And it wasn't a private show because it was posted on Honor Club (as opposed to last year's Soaring Eagle Cup where Dalton won his world title shot, which was a sold show and has yet to see the light of day).
ROH's tournament was canon for ROH. Jericho doesn't work for ROH, Jericho's match wasn't even on the same day. You want to blame them for giving you a free 'dark' match, ok, but that's all the harm they did.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 3rd, '19, 21:34

cero2k wrote: Jan 3rd, '19, 21:19
Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 3rd, '19, 21:11
It certainly is canon. Flip Gordon won an ROH World Title shot out of it, plus they tried to build up to it on both Being The Elite and at All In. And it wasn't a private show because it was posted on Honor Club (as opposed to last year's Soaring Eagle Cup where Dalton won his world title shot, which was a sold show and has yet to see the light of day).
ROH's tournament was canon for ROH. Jericho doesn't work for ROH, Jericho's match wasn't even on the same day. You want to blame them for giving you a free 'dark' match, ok, but that's all the harm they did.
It was on Honor Club. It's canon. I'm not blaming them for having the match. I'm blaming them for building up to it and having the wrestlers act in a way that doesn't make sense in canon. They could very easily have just not had Cody be a dick, but they knew that any time there was tension between Cody and Kenny the crowd would gasp, so they decided to create those moments in a cheap and artificial way that involved Cody's character regressing... and all for the sake of getting this reaction that didn't even matter because it never built to anything.

I'm blaming them for doing a storyline on being The Elite where the Bucks are willing to team up with Kenny's mortal enemy against Kenny and other Bullet Club members after they had just finished doing a months-long storyline on BTE plus in two of the four biggest promotions in the world where Marty and the Bucks and Kenny were all agonizing over the possibility of having to fight each other. All they had to do was say "it's Jericho's cruise so he's the one booking the matches" and that they had all signed up for this before the Jericho vs. Kenny feud started and that Jericho told the Bucks that if they didn't fight their hardest, he wasn't going to pay them. That took me five seconds to think up. As a fan, I find it aggravating and borderline insulting that these guys don't put in the effort to make sure their storylines actually make sense and that their actions are consistent.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by cero2k » Jan 3rd, '19, 23:14

Camp WWE is on the WWE Network, it doesn't make it canon. Doraemon came out at the opening of Wrestle Kingdom 10, doesn't mean Doraemon now exists in NJPW's canon. Obama and Hillary didn't actually wrestle on RAW. Dark matches aren't canon. House shows aren't canon. this match was a dark match that you got for free when you bought the Sea of Honor Tournament. There is no grand scheme storyline for the Bucks and Jericho teaming. This isn't even a promotion.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 3rd, '19, 23:52

cero2k wrote: Jan 3rd, '19, 23:14 Camp WWE is on the WWE Network, it doesn't make it canon. Doraemon came out at the opening of Wrestle Kingdom 10, doesn't mean Doraemon now exists in NJPW's canon. Obama and Hillary didn't actually wrestle on RAW. Dark matches aren't canon. House shows aren't canon. this match was a dark match that you got for free when you bought the Sea of Honor Tournament. There is no grand scheme storyline for the Bucks and Jericho teaming. This isn't even a promotion.
1. By definition, if they broadcast it then it's not a dark match.
2. Camp WWE is an animated cartoon Similarly, Clinton and Obama were not actually on Raw, and we were never supposed to think they were.
3. If you're doing your job right as a booker, then they are canon. There is absolutely no reason you can't ensure that everything is in the same continuity. As for the claim that house shows aren't canon, the fact that recognized title changes have happened on them proves that they are.

All In wasn't a promotion, either, and that still interacted with and was built up with ROH storylines.

Just because there is no long-term plan for Jericho and the Bucks to team up doesn't mean that you can discount any previously-established storyline factors in order to team them up.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by cero2k » Jan 4th, '19, 22:13

Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 3rd, '19, 23:52
Just because there is no long-term plan for Jericho and the Bucks to team up doesn't mean that you can discount any previously-established storyline factors in order to team them up.
just because a match happens, doesn't mean it needs to be part of a story, especially on a one off cruise
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 5th, '19, 16:08

cero2k wrote: Jan 4th, '19, 22:13
Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 3rd, '19, 23:52
Just because there is no long-term plan for Jericho and the Bucks to team up doesn't mean that you can discount any previously-established storyline factors in order to team them up.
just because a match happens, doesn't mean it needs to be part of a story, especially on a one off cruise
Matches can happen without being part of a story, but they can't contradict any other story that has happened. They build this match on up Being The Elite and they built the Bullet Club Civil War up on Being The Elite. Therefore it is the same continuity.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by Bob-O » Jan 5th, '19, 19:57

I can see both sides...

One one hand, they broke kayfabe. Worse than the Curtain Call, maybe it was a "dark match" on a "private" cruise, but it wasn't dark, it wasn't private, and there were pictures all over social media... posted by them... in a traditional sense, not cool.

On the other hand, Kayfabe's been dead since the Curtain Call and the fans enjoyed it (except for BRM), so who gives a shit? In an age of wrestling where we have to ponder every single Tweet and post a talent makes to figure out if they're in character or not, I don't see the big deal. It's over, there's no undoing it now, storyline moves forward. If you're enjoying the story, just forget it happened. They did.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by cero2k » Jan 6th, '19, 12:07

Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 5th, '19, 16:08
Matches can happen without being part of a story, but they can't contradict any other story that has happened. They build this match on up Being The Elite and they built the Bullet Club Civil War up on Being The Elite. Therefore it is the same continuity.
Joey Ryan also died in that timeline and Page is schizophrenic, you're gonna have a bad time if you hold NJPW, ROH, and Being the Elite all in the same continuity, you need to learn which spots to pick for which story.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 6th, '19, 12:12

cero2k wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 12:07
Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 5th, '19, 16:08
Matches can happen without being part of a story, but they can't contradict any other story that has happened. They build this match on up Being The Elite and they built the Bullet Club Civil War up on Being The Elite. Therefore it is the same continuity.
Joey Ryan also died in that timeline and Page is schizophrenic, you're gonna have a bad time if you hold NJPW, ROH, and Being the Elite all in the same continuity, you need to learn which spots to pick for which story.
All of that stuff was confined to BTE and never happened in ROH/NJPW. The stuff with Kenny, Cody, and the Bucks did.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by cero2k » Jan 6th, '19, 12:35

Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 12:12
All of that stuff was confined to BTE and never happened in ROH/NJPW. The stuff with Kenny, Cody, and the Bucks did.
my point still stands, if you're going to take everything as the same timeline, especially with BTE, you're gonna have a bad time.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 6th, '19, 13:29

cero2k wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 12:35
Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 12:12
All of that stuff was confined to BTE and never happened in ROH/NJPW. The stuff with Kenny, Cody, and the Bucks did.
my point still stands, if you're going to take everything as the same timeline, especially with BTE, you're gonna have a bad time.
Then within the ROH and NJPW continuity this makes now sense, and this was an ROH show, cruise or not. There was an ROH ring, 95% of the wrestlers there were ROH wrestler, there was a tournament for an ROH World Title shot, and it was broadcast on the ROH service.
I'm not saying you have to hate it. But I am saying that if someone is going to criticize WWE's continuity issues, they should be criticizing this as well. I'm sick and tired of the #2 promotion getting a pass for bad storytelling from a segment of the non-WWE fanbase just because they're not WWE. This G-d damn cult developing around Bullet Club has turned into another TNA Mecca, completely unwilling to accept the idea that flaws exist in their chosen alternative. The only difference is that instead of Dave Meltzer calling them out, Dave Meltzer is their lead cheerleader.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by cero2k » Jan 6th, '19, 16:54

Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 13:29
Then within the ROH and NJPW continuity this makes now sense, and this was an ROH show, cruise or not. There was an ROH ring, 95% of the wrestlers there were ROH wrestler, there was a tournament for an ROH World Title shot, and it was broadcast on the ROH service.
I'm not saying you have to hate it. But I am saying that if someone is going to criticize WWE's continuity issues, they should be criticizing this as well. I'm sick and tired of the #2 promotion getting a pass for bad storytelling from a segment of the non-WWE fanbase just because they're not WWE. This G-d damn cult developing around Bullet Club has turned into another TNA Mecca, completely unwilling to accept the idea that flaws exist in their chosen alternative. The only difference is that instead of Dave Meltzer calling them out, Dave Meltzer is their lead cheerleader.
idk what you tell you, you're getting up and arms over a cruise show that wasn't even supposed to make it to TV. no one in the world expected this to be part of any ongoing story, especially anything involved with the Elite or Jericho, they're just fun matches for the people who paid to enjoy their cruise. ROH has a lot of issues, but this match wasn't booked by ROH, Jericho doesn't work for ROH.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 6th, '19, 17:35

cero2k wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 16:54
Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 13:29
Then within the ROH and NJPW continuity this makes now sense, and this was an ROH show, cruise or not. There was an ROH ring, 95% of the wrestlers there were ROH wrestler, there was a tournament for an ROH World Title shot, and it was broadcast on the ROH service.
I'm not saying you have to hate it. But I am saying that if someone is going to criticize WWE's continuity issues, they should be criticizing this as well. I'm sick and tired of the #2 promotion getting a pass for bad storytelling from a segment of the non-WWE fanbase just because they're not WWE. This G-d damn cult developing around Bullet Club has turned into another TNA Mecca, completely unwilling to accept the idea that flaws exist in their chosen alternative. The only difference is that instead of Dave Meltzer calling them out, Dave Meltzer is their lead cheerleader.
idk what you tell you, you're getting up and arms over a cruise show that wasn't even supposed to make it to TV. no one in the world expected this to be part of any ongoing story, especially anything involved with the Elite or Jericho, they're just fun matches for the people who paid to enjoy their cruise. ROH has a lot of issues, but this match wasn't booked by ROH, Jericho doesn't work for ROH.
I don't understand why you are insisting that this was never meant to be been by the general public. They hyped it up on BTE and they broadcast it on Honor Club. And if it was meant to be seen by the general public, then it needs to conform to kayfabe.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by cero2k » Jan 6th, '19, 22:16

Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 17:35 I don't understand why you are insisting that this was never meant to be been by the general public. They hyped it up on BTE and they broadcast it on Honor Club. And if it was meant to be seen by the general public, then it needs to conform to kayfabe.
because the Jericho Cruise wasn't going to be broadcasted to begin with, ROH decided to show their tournament and Jericho was nice enough to share a match, only that match considering there was about 3 more days worth of wrestling. At the end of the day, it doesn't mattered if they hyped it or not, we all knew the match was happening and we all know this match had nothing to do with NJPW/ROH stories. it's a one off match. BTE is a show where the Bucks do whatever they want with their friends, not everything that happens there is a storyline. The Jericho Cruise wasn't part of anyone's storyline, it's a Meta show just like ALL IN was.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 6th, '19, 22:26

cero2k wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 22:16
Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 17:35 I don't understand why you are insisting that this was never meant to be been by the general public. They hyped it up on BTE and they broadcast it on Honor Club. And if it was meant to be seen by the general public, then it needs to conform to kayfabe.
because the Jericho Cruise wasn't going to be broadcasted to begin with, ROH decided to show their tournament and Jericho was nice enough to share a match, only that match considering there was about 3 more days worth of wrestling. At the end of the day, it doesn't mattered if they hyped it or not, we all knew the match was happening and we all know this match had nothing to do with NJPW/ROH stories. it's a one off match. BTE is a show where the Bucks do whatever they want with their friends, not everything that happens there is a storyline. The Jericho Cruise wasn't part of anyone's storyline, it's a Meta show just like ALL IN was.
How can you say All In wasn't part of anyone's storyline when half of the ROH shows had Flip trying to earn his way onto the show (plus other qualifiers) as well as all of the Cody/Aldis stuff?
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by cero2k » Jan 7th, '19, 08:24

Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 22:26
cero2k wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 22:16
Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 17:35 I don't understand why you are insisting that this was never meant to be been by the general public. They hyped it up on BTE and they broadcast it on Honor Club. And if it was meant to be seen by the general public, then it needs to conform to kayfabe.
because the Jericho Cruise wasn't going to be broadcasted to begin with, ROH decided to show their tournament and Jericho was nice enough to share a match, only that match considering there was about 3 more days worth of wrestling. At the end of the day, it doesn't mattered if they hyped it or not, we all knew the match was happening and we all know this match had nothing to do with NJPW/ROH stories. it's a one off match. BTE is a show where the Bucks do whatever they want with their friends, not everything that happens there is a storyline. The Jericho Cruise wasn't part of anyone's storyline, it's a Meta show just like ALL IN was.
How can you say All In wasn't part of anyone's storyline when half of the ROH shows had Flip trying to earn his way onto the show (plus other qualifiers) as well as all of the Cody/Aldis stuff?
because that's only two matches, that's ALL IN having one NWA match and one ROH match, but fair enough, i'll give you those, it's still a meta show, it's service for the fans, at no point is anyone expecting a big storyline coming out of Scurl and Okada or Omega and Pentagon.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 7th, '19, 10:08

cero2k wrote: Jan 7th, '19, 08:24
Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 22:26
cero2k wrote: Jan 6th, '19, 22:16

because the Jericho Cruise wasn't going to be broadcasted to begin with, ROH decided to show their tournament and Jericho was nice enough to share a match, only that match considering there was about 3 more days worth of wrestling. At the end of the day, it doesn't mattered if they hyped it or not, we all knew the match was happening and we all know this match had nothing to do with NJPW/ROH stories. it's a one off match. BTE is a show where the Bucks do whatever they want with their friends, not everything that happens there is a storyline. The Jericho Cruise wasn't part of anyone's storyline, it's a Meta show just like ALL IN was.
How can you say All In wasn't part of anyone's storyline when half of the ROH shows had Flip trying to earn his way onto the show (plus other qualifiers) as well as all of the Cody/Aldis stuff?
because that's only two matches, that's ALL IN having one NWA match and one ROH match, but fair enough, i'll give you those, it's still a meta show, it's service for the fans, at no point is anyone expecting a big storyline coming out of Scurl and Okada or Omega and Pentagon.
But Omega and Pentagon had a post-match angle that led to this, and if Scurll had beaten Okada you can be sure it would have been brought up constantly on ROH and NJPW commentary.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by cero2k » Jan 7th, '19, 10:36

Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 7th, '19, 10:08
But Omega and Pentagon had a post-match angle that led to this, and if Scurll had beaten Okada you can be sure it would have been brought up constantly on ROH and NJPW commentary.
and that beat down was Meta and fan service. Like i said, i think most people understand that these are two completely separate things going on with Jericho, Omega, and co. and it's not excusing the Elite because of markness, it's just straight up suspension of disbelief.
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Re: NWK Reviews Chris Jericho's Rock n' Wrestling Rager at Sea (awful)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 7th, '19, 10:41

cero2k wrote: Jan 7th, '19, 10:36
Big Red Machine wrote: Jan 7th, '19, 10:08
But Omega and Pentagon had a post-match angle that led to this, and if Scurll had beaten Okada you can be sure it would have been brought up constantly on ROH and NJPW commentary.
and that beat down was Meta and fan service. Like i said, i think most people understand that these are two completely separate things going on with Jericho, Omega, and co. and it's not excusing the Elite because of markness, it's just straight up suspension of disbelief.
I don't understand how suspension of disbelief can go so far as to allow two similar things that happen in the same context to not be treated the same.

Suspension of disbelief is for buy-in to the goings-on of the situation: Why the moves are not what you would see in a shoot fight, or why the cops aren't called or the commission doesn't shut things down after some sort of heinous assault. You can also extend this to things like LU/CHIKARA-type worlds magic exists, but I'd put buying into the premise in a different category. Suspension of disbelief should not be used to explain away contradictions.
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