BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

All ROH Related Reviews and Discussions
Post Reply
User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20200
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 1st, '18, 00:18

ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2 (2/24/2018)- Tokyo, Japan


BEER CITY BRUISER vs. TOA HENARE- 4.75/10
Bruiser won, but I’m sure Henare will get that big win someday. The finish was pretty great.

JAY LETHAL, JUICE ROBINSON, & DAVID FINLAY JR. vs. BULLET CLUB (Chase Owens, Yujiro Takahashi, & Hikuleo)- 6/10
Fun match. The fans were very into Lethal, which is a change from Lethal’s past trips to New Japan.

RYUSUKE TAGUCHI & FLIP GORDON vs. LOS INGOBERNABLES DE JAPON (Hiromu Takahashi & BUSHI)- 6/10
Flip Gordon annoys the hell out of me, so when he did a pointless, show-offy backflip, only to get clobbered from behind by BUSHI, it just made me laugh my ass off instead of booing like they wanted me to. Look… the dude is a spot-monkey who calls himself “Flip.” If his last name was “Goofball” he would be the living embodiment of everything that sucks about in-ring wrestling in 2018. He’s like if you had a stereotypical middle-aged white guy CEO of an unethical corporation as the villain of your movie and you named him “Mr. McGreedy.” He’s not even being f*cking subtle about it.
They found these section signs all the way at the back of the crowd that make a nice loud noise when you throw someone into them, so of course they fought all the way to the back of the arena just so the babyfaces could get thrown into these signs… and of course the referee didn’t count them out. Yeah. That was totally worth sh*tting on logic, especially when they later showed us that a similar sound can be created by just throwing someone into the guardrails.
On the bright side, though, Hiromu and BUSHI are developing a nice little tag team arsenal for themselves, so hopefully we’ll get some semblance of freshness in the Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Division soon.

NEVER OPENWEIGHT SIX-MAN TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: Bullet Club (Bad Luck Fale & the Guerrillas of Destiny)(c) vs. Jushin “Thunder” Liger, Cheeseburger, & Delirious- 4.5/10
The heels were mean, the babyfaces did some Shoteis. Another pointless match for these pointless belts. The heels pretended to be Cheeseburger’s friend after the match but it was a set-up for Tama Tonga to hit him with a Gun-Stun.

BULLET CLUB (Adam Page & the Young Bucks) vs. CHUCK TAYLOR & CHAOS (Jay White & YOSHI-HASHI)- 8/10
Most of this was exactly the sort of fast-paced action you’d expect- maybe a little better- but the Page vs. White stuff was good enough to get me totally psyched for their match! After the match, Page hit White with a Right of Passage that was ostensibly performed onto a chair, but it was pretty clear that White’s head hit the back of White’s legs (if it even hit anything at all).

ROH WORLD TITLE MATCH: Dalton Castle(c) (w/the Boys) vs. Trent Beretta vs. Beer City Bruiser- 7.5/10
This was originally supposed to be just Trent and Dalton but Bruiser wanted into the match. I was all ready to be happy that New Japan was basically telling him to f*ck off by having him escorted away from ringside, but Dalton Castle said he’d be happy with Bruiser getting added to this match so yet another undeserving loser is getting a shot at the ROH World Title. In hindsight, this appears to have been done because they thought Trent was too injured to put on a good enough match. It’d be nice if they had that sort of quality control with anything they do regarding the ROH World Title- or the shows in general- on the other two continents they frequent.
Trent did as much as he could- maybe even more than he should have- but he still felt like mostly an afterthought in this match. The action was pretty great and Dalton in particular had great fire, I expect more out of an ROH World Title match.

GOLDEN LOVERS (Kenny Omega & Kota Ibushi) vs. BULLET CLUB (Cody Rhodes & Marty Scurll)- 8.5/10
Marty is upset that Kenny “picked” Kota over him, which doesn’t really make sense because Kenny doesn’t book the matches, and it’s not like he’s left Bullet Club for Kota, either. Hell, he just teamed with a member of Bullet Club last night and Kota at the same time last night. More importantly, we have seen nothing that would make Marty change his mind about Kenny between last night and tonight. He was ambivalent at the end of last night’s match, and now he is totally anti-Kenny, and had no problem breaking his fingers- something he hesitated at doing last night. Yes, Cody cut his “your either on Team Kenny or you’re on Team Cody” promo, but we have seen nothing that would make Marty want to side with Cody over Kenny.
The action in the match was pretty awesome, aside from Cody’s botched dive and whatever that ugly-ass double-team Kenny & Kota tried to hit on Marty towards the end (the one that wound up with Kenny tossing Marty out of an electric chair position so Kota could kick him in the back of the thigh on the way down). As a match it was awesome, but once again, nothing happened for the storyline other than Marty deciding to be on Cody’s side, which seemed to randomly happen before the match rather than as a consequence of it.

POST-MATCH SEGMENT- Kenny said that the Golden Lovers are the best tag team in the world. This brought out the Young Bucks, who took exception to this for obvious reasons. The Bucks announced that they are going to be heavyweights now, and we are left with a tease of Young Bucks vs. Golden Lovers.

This was a much better show in the ring than last night, but the major point on this show- the development of the Bullet Club storyline- once again left a lot to be desired. This was an important show for the Young Bucks, but didn’t really move the Kenny vs. Cody story along in any way.


Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
NOVA 2018 Commonwealth Cup
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16027
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by cero2k » Mar 1st, '18, 10:03

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 1st, '18, 00:18

JAY LETHAL, JUICE ROBINSON, & DAVID FINLAY JR. vs. BULLET CLUB (Chase Owens, Yujiro Takahashi, & Hikuleo)- 6/10
Fun match. The fans were very into Lethal, which is a change from Lethal’s past trips to New Japan.
I mean, look who the other 5 were, at least Lethal is a 'star'


GOLDEN LOVERS (Kenny Omega & Kota Ibushi) vs. BULLET CLUB (Cody Rhodes & Marty Scurll)- 8.5/10
Marty is upset that Kenny “picked” Kota over him, which doesn’t really make sense because Kenny doesn’t book the matches, and it’s not like he’s left Bullet Club for Kota, either. Hell, he just teamed with a member of Bullet Club last night and Kota at the same time last night. More importantly, we have seen nothing that would make Marty change his mind about Kenny between last night and tonight. He was ambivalent at the end of last night’s match, and now he is totally anti-Kenny, and had no problem breaking his fingers- something he hesitated at doing last night. Yes, Cody cut his “your either on Team Kenny or you’re on Team Cody” promo, but we have seen nothing that would make Marty want to side with Cody over Kenny.

i guess we'll continue the conversation here. Last night Lovers were about to hit the Trigger on Scurll, I think that should be enough for Scurll not be as happy with Omega, and i don't think he was arguing that Omega chose Ibushi to tag, but overall to go with him and hang out. Kenny has definitely been showing more love for Ibushi than BC, Scurll, AND the Bucks, Kenny is not even coming out with his song or BC shirts anymore. I think the overall weekend does build to Scurll not siding with Omega.
Image

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20200
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 1st, '18, 11:58

cero2k wrote:
Mar 1st, '18, 10:03
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 1st, '18, 00:18

JAY LETHAL, JUICE ROBINSON, & DAVID FINLAY JR. vs. BULLET CLUB (Chase Owens, Yujiro Takahashi, & Hikuleo)- 6/10
Fun match. The fans were very into Lethal, which is a change from Lethal’s past trips to New Japan.
I mean, look who the other 5 were, at least Lethal is a 'star'

They could have sat on their hands, but chose to cheer for Lethal instead. It's a good sign for him.

GOLDEN LOVERS (Kenny Omega & Kota Ibushi) vs. BULLET CLUB (Cody Rhodes & Marty Scurll)- 8.5/10
Marty is upset that Kenny “picked” Kota over him, which doesn’t really make sense because Kenny doesn’t book the matches, and it’s not like he’s left Bullet Club for Kota, either. Hell, he just teamed with a member of Bullet Club last night and Kota at the same time last night. More importantly, we have seen nothing that would make Marty change his mind about Kenny between last night and tonight. He was ambivalent at the end of last night’s match, and now he is totally anti-Kenny, and had no problem breaking his fingers- something he hesitated at doing last night. Yes, Cody cut his “your either on Team Kenny or you’re on Team Cody” promo, but we have seen nothing that would make Marty want to side with Cody over Kenny.

i guess we'll continue the conversation here. Last night Lovers were about to hit the Trigger on Scurll, I think that should be enough for Scurll not be as happy with Omega, and i don't think he was arguing that Omega chose Ibushi to tag, but overall to go with him and hang out. Kenny has definitely been showing more love for Ibushi than BC, Scurll, AND the Bucks, Kenny is not even coming out with his song or BC shirts anymore. I think the overall weekend does build to Scurll not siding with Omega.
So your argument is that Marty's big change of heart on Kenny happened because Kenny was going to hit him with a wrestling move in the confines of a professional wrestling match when they were on opposite sides? Come on! What did Marty expect would happen? That Kenny would completely refuse to fight him or just lie down for him? Why is that any worse than Marty putting Kenny in a headlock? Or everyone beating up Chase Owens? You don't see Chase Owens whining about Page, Cody, & Marty, do you?
This weekend didn't "build to" Scurll not siding with Omega. It was a weekend during which, between the two shows, Marty made the decsion to be anti-Kenny completely off-screen and with no logical explanation.
And, if I recall correctly, Marty specifically asked Kenny why Kenny chose to team with Kota "over me," not "over us," so it's not a "Bullet Club as a whole" thing so much as it is a personal thing. And if anyone is going to criticize Kenny for not wearing Bullet Club gear and using the Bullet Club theme, shouldn't it be Tama Tonga? And, in fact, shouldn't Tama Tonga be angry at Marty and the Bucks and Cody for all now pushing the idea of The Elite (or the Luxury Trio, or just generally pushing their own sh*t) over that of the group?
It's bad storytelling, and I'm tired of people giving it a pass because Bullet Club or because they like the idea of a Golden Lovers reunion or a Bullet Club civil war. To give something a pass simply because you like the end result is being a mark.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
NOVA 2018 Commonwealth Cup
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16027
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by cero2k » Mar 1st, '18, 12:12

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 1st, '18, 11:58


So your argument is that Marty's big change of heart on Kenny happened because Kenny was going to hit him with a wrestling move in the confines of a professional wrestling match when they were on opposite sides? Come on! What did Marty expect would happen? That Kenny would completely refuse to fight him or just lie down for him? Why is that any worse than Marty putting Kenny in a headlock? Or everyone beating up Chase Owens? You don't see Chase Owens whining about Page, Cody, & Marty, do you?

you can ask him yourself


This weekend didn't "build to" Scurll not siding with Omega. It was a weekend during which, between the two shows, Marty made the decsion to be anti-Kenny completely off-screen and with no logical explanation.
And, if I recall correctly, Marty specifically asked Kenny why Kenny chose to team with Kota "over me," not "over us," so it's not a "Bullet Club as a whole" thing so much as it is a personal thing. And if anyone is going to criticize Kenny for not wearing Bullet Club gear and using the Bullet Club theme, shouldn't it be Tama Tonga? And, in fact, shouldn't Tama Tonga be angry at Marty and the Bucks and Cody for all now pushing the idea of The Elite (or the Luxury Trio, or just generally pushing their own sh*t) over that of the group?
It's bad storytelling, and I'm tired of people giving it a pass because Bullet Club or because they like the idea of a Golden Lovers reunion or a Bullet Club civil war. To give something a pass simply because you like the end result is being a mark.
to each their own then, i'm a mark. we're honestly seeing different things in this story
Image

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20200
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 1st, '18, 13:49

So if Marty saying he still hasn't chosen a side, or that he made his choice in response to Kenny? And if the latter, what did Kenny do?
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
NOVA 2018 Commonwealth Cup
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16027
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by cero2k » Mar 2nd, '18, 11:35

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 1st, '18, 13:49
So if Marty saying he still hasn't chosen a side, or that he made his choice in response to Kenny? And if the latter, what did Kenny do?
he's saying that he 'never chose sides' but after Kenny and Ibushi hit him with the unnecessary team move Golden Trigger, he realized that he rather care for himself and himself alone and simply be 'The Villain'
Image

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20200
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 2nd, '18, 11:47

cero2k wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 11:35
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 1st, '18, 13:49
So if Marty saying he still hasn't chosen a side, or that he made his choice in response to Kenny? And if the latter, what did Kenny do?
he's saying that he 'never chose sides' but after Kenny and Ibushi hit him with the unnecessary team move Golden Trigger, he realized that he rather care for himself and himself alone and simply be 'The Villain'
What was unnecessary about it? It was right in the middle of a wrestling match!
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
NOVA 2018 Commonwealth Cup
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16027
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by cero2k » Mar 2nd, '18, 13:31

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 11:47


What was unnecessary about it? It was right in the middle of a wrestling match!
it IS ganging up on someone 2-on-1 while one of them was not the legal man, but at the end, if it was 'enough' for Scurll, that is all that matters for him to change his mind. If we agree or not that it was 'enough' that is our problem. I don't think that losing some matches was enough for Steen to turn on Generico at Final Battle, but hey, it was enough for him and that's all that matters, but the fact is, that in both cases, they DID give us the reason why things happened.
Image

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20200
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 2nd, '18, 14:08

cero2k wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 13:31
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 11:47


What was unnecessary about it? It was right in the middle of a wrestling match!
it IS ganging up on someone 2-on-1 while one of them was not the legal man, but at the end, if it was 'enough' for Scurll, that is all that matters for him to change his mind. If we agree or not that it was 'enough' that is our problem. I don't think that losing some matches was enough for Steen to turn on Generico at Final Battle, but hey, it was enough for him and that's all that matters, but the fact is, that in both cases, they DID give us the reason why things happened.
2-on-1s happen all the time in tag matches. If that was all it took for Scurll to change his mind then he is being unreasonable... and there is nothing wrong with that if it's portrayed that way.
As for Steen and Generico, Steen had been on the verge of turning on Generico several times mid-2007, and when he finally did turn on him, he was also being influenced by the evil Steve Corino. I'm looking for consistency of character. You're goign to tell me that "The Villain" got so upset at a dude double-teaming him in a tag match, but that CHAOS- a bunch of babyfaces- are totally okay with Yano kicking them in the nuts to screw them out of G1 matches?
With Marty here, we're not even sure what he meant, because you and I came to two different conclusions. It's haphazard storytelling. Emotions are nice, but they need to be backed up by facts for us to be able to understand them. Stuff like this is why I think they need an assistant booker who can put the pieces together in a way that makes sense as a sequential story. So we can understand exactly what led from A to B to C.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
NOVA 2018 Commonwealth Cup
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16027
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by cero2k » Mar 2nd, '18, 15:47

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 14:08

2-on-1s happen all the time in tag matches. If that was all it took for Scurll to change his mind then he is being unreasonable... and there is nothing wrong with that if it's portrayed that way.
As for Steen and Generico, Steen had been on the verge of turning on Generico several times mid-2007, and when he finally did turn on him, he was also being influenced by the evil Steve Corino. I'm looking for consistency of character. You're goign to tell me that "The Villain" got so upset at a dude double-teaming him in a tag match, but that CHAOS- a bunch of babyfaces- are totally okay with Yano kicking them in the nuts to screw them out of G1 matches?
With Marty here, we're not even sure what he meant, because you and I came to two different conclusions. It's haphazard storytelling. Emotions are nice, but they need to be backed up by facts for us to be able to understand them. Stuff like this is why I think they need an assistant booker who can put the pieces together in a way that makes sense as a sequential story. So we can understand exactly what led from A to B to C.
what other portrayal do you need other than Scurll himself showing you the move clip on twitter and telling you that he didn't like it?

you're not looking for consistency, you're looking for cookie-cutter characters. Why would CHAOS and Scurll act the same way? they're completely different people/stables/characters/stories and so is Kenny and Yano. Just because John Cena is a goody-too-shoes does not mean Roman Reigns should be one and I can show you 3 yrs worth of footage to back that expecting everyone to act the same is bad booking. And even in consistency, maybe I was ok with Yano kicking me three years ago, don't mean I'm gonna feel the same today, I'd even say that consistency like that tells me that characters are not being evolved nor developed.

Yeah, and back then, some people identified with the Horsemen, and some with Hogan; and years later, some people identified with Stone Cold and some people with The Rock. In 2018, if you think Scurll is being shitty cry-baby, then that's it, we're not all supposed to mindlessly eat the same story, you see things that you like/dislike/identify with and I see others and random-japanese-citizen sees other things. We're all reaching our own conclusions with what we see and identify with. Thinking that Scurll is being unreasonanble is a pretty good conclusion, one that actually may be more aligned with disliking someone that calls himself 'The Villain'
Image

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20200
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 3rd, '18, 17:35

cero2k wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 15:47
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 14:08

2-on-1s happen all the time in tag matches. If that was all it took for Scurll to change his mind then he is being unreasonable... and there is nothing wrong with that if it's portrayed that way.
As for Steen and Generico, Steen had been on the verge of turning on Generico several times mid-2007, and when he finally did turn on him, he was also being influenced by the evil Steve Corino. I'm looking for consistency of character. You're goign to tell me that "The Villain" got so upset at a dude double-teaming him in a tag match, but that CHAOS- a bunch of babyfaces- are totally okay with Yano kicking them in the nuts to screw them out of G1 matches?
With Marty here, we're not even sure what he meant, because you and I came to two different conclusions. It's haphazard storytelling. Emotions are nice, but they need to be backed up by facts for us to be able to understand them. Stuff like this is why I think they need an assistant booker who can put the pieces together in a way that makes sense as a sequential story. So we can understand exactly what led from A to B to C.
what other portrayal do you need other than Scurll himself showing you the move clip on twitter and telling you that he didn't like it?
Because there are people in this world who don't use Twitter or don't follow Marty on it. It's okay to do it on Twitter, but you need to explain it on the show, too. Loathe as I am to compliment WWE's use of Social Media in angles, but whenever something happens on Twitter, they don't show you the match/segment it's relevant in until they've put the relevant Tweet up on the TV screen for you to see.
cero2k wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 15:47
you're not looking for consistency, you're looking for cookie-cutter characters. Why would CHAOS and Scurll act the same way? they're completely different people/stables/characters/stories and so is Kenny and Yano. Just because John Cena is a goody-too-shoes does not mean Roman Reigns should be one and I can show you 3 yrs worth of footage to back that expecting everyone to act the same is bad booking. And even in consistency, maybe I was ok with Yano kicking me three years ago, don't mean I'm gonna feel the same today, I'd even say that consistency like that tells me that characters are not being evolved nor developed.
What I'm looking for is internal consistency within the characters. I find it hard to believe- based on the way that Marty himself has acted, even within heel vs. heel matches- that he would get so f*cking upset at Omega for hitting a double-team maneuver on him (which is technically illegal, but that rule is broken by both sides in just about every singles tag team match, anyway). Also, if that was the thing that made Marty switch sides then why was he still on the fence at the end of the first match when Cody claimed that Omega started the post-match brawl? Shouldn't he have been on Cody's side at that point?
My point with CHAOS is that it seems even worse for Marty to be so upset about that when he is part of a heel group that has no problem cheating, when CHAOS, a group of rule-abiding babyfaces except for Yano, don't even seem to get upset with Yano when he cheats to screw one of their own people out of a match. And yes, you can be okay with Yano kicking you in the nuts three years ago but no be okay with it today... but you need to answer the question of what changed. Is this the eighth time he's done it and you told him to knock that sh*t off but he did it anyway? Are you upset because last time it happened in an opening night G1 match but this time it happened on the second to last night of the G1 and caused you to be mathematically eliminated from the tournament? You need a reason for something to have changed because leaving it at "I changed my mind this time" is bad storytelling.
Roman is certainly not a goody-two-shoes. I'm not saying it would work for him if he was, but that is not the reason Roman is having problems.
cero2k wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 15:47
Yeah, and back then, some people identified with the Horsemen, and some with Hogan; and years later, some people identified with Stone Cold and some people with The Rock. In 2018, if you think Scurll is being shitty cry-baby, then that's it, we're not all supposed to mindlessly eat the same story, you see things that you like/dislike/identify with and I see others and random-japanese-citizen sees other things. We're all reaching our own conclusions with what we see and identify with. Thinking that Scurll is being unreasonanble is a pretty good conclusion, one that actually may be more aligned with disliking someone that calls himself 'The Villain'
I think we are supposed to reach the same conclusion. We're all supposed to be understand why the Bucks got upset at Kenny in Sapporo, but we're not not supposed to actually believe that Kenny did shove Matt on purpose (by which I mean that we're not supposed to think he would have shoved the person grabbing him from behind if he knew it was Matt). This is the same. I honestly don't see how it is possible, based on everything we've seen and been told about his character in the past, to think that this would be something that would turn Marty against Kenny unless the idea is that Marty is being a giant hypocrite, at which point he becomes a heel by definition and not someone we are supposed to believe or identify with.

Find me one angle in wrestling history that wasn't babyface vs. babyface where everyone watching wasn't supposed to reach the same conclusion. The only one you'll be able to come up with is the ROH vs. CZW feud, and even that was dealing with- and targeted at- two radically different fanbases and was specifically designed to be viewed different by those different fanbases.

Yes, some people identified with Rock more than Austin or vice-versa, but I don't think there were very many people who identified with Vince.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
NOVA 2018 Commonwealth Cup
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 16027
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32
Favorite Wrestler: Eddie Guerrero
Location: El Paso, TX
Contact:

Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by cero2k » Mar 4th, '18, 11:38

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 3rd, '18, 17:35

Because there are people in this world who don't use Twitter or don't follow Marty on it. It's okay to do it on Twitter, but you need to explain it on the show, too. Loathe as I am to compliment WWE's use of Social Media in angles, but whenever something happens on Twitter, they don't show you the match/segment it's relevant in until they've put the relevant Tweet up on the TV screen for you to see.
we haven't seen the follow up on neither BTE nor NJPW. If you don't follow twitter then you have to wait to see what happens and not just assume that it's all shit, and it's like this with every promotion in the world. PROGRESS and PWG announce matches WITH consequences of the previous show without releasing the previous show. EVOLVE features a championship that gets defended in other promotions. CHIKARA does written blogs. ROH/NJPW share promotions and wrestlers. WWE runs interviews post-show ON a network you HAVE to pay for, not even youtube. Like i said, if someone wants all details covered, then put in the extra effort.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 3rd, '18, 17:35
What I'm looking for is internal consistency within the characters. I find it hard to believe- based on the way that Marty himself has acted, even within heel vs. heel matches- that he would get so f*cking upset at Omega for hitting a double-team maneuver on him (which is technically illegal, but that rule is broken by both sides in just about every singles tag team match, anyway). Also, if that was the thing that made Marty switch sides then why was he still on the fence at the end of the first match when Cody claimed that Omega started the post-match brawl? Shouldn't he have been on Cody's side at that point?
maybe that is the whole deal, he IS indeed a heel and someone called "The Villain" and this isn't heel vs heel, this himself vs what we could believe to be one of his best friends in NJPW.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 3rd, '18, 17:35
My point with CHAOS is that it seems even worse for Marty to be so upset about that when he is part of a heel group that has no problem cheating, when CHAOS, a group of rule-abiding babyfaces except for Yano, don't even seem to get upset with Yano when he cheats to screw one of their own people out of a match. And yes, you can be okay with Yano kicking you in the nuts three years ago but no be okay with it today... but you need to answer the question of what changed. Is this the eighth time he's done it and you told him to knock that sh*t off but he did it anyway? Are you upset because last time it happened in an opening night G1 match but this time it happened on the second to last night of the G1 and caused you to be mathematically eliminated from the tournament? You need a reason for something to have changed because leaving it at "I changed my mind this time" is bad storytelling.

Roman is certainly not a goody-two-shoes. I'm not saying it would work for him if he was, but that is not the reason Roman is having problems.
It only looks 'worse' if you assume that everyone in the world has to follow the same moral rules. I don't understand why you want all heels to react the same and the babyfaces to have the same moral standards. And I agree that you probably need to mention why someone turned and got tired of Yano's shit, but I really can't recall a heel turn like that that hasn't been followed by a promo explain it.
cero2k wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 15:47
I think we are supposed to reach the same conclusion. We're all supposed to be understand why the Bucks got upset at Kenny in Sapporo, but we're not not supposed to actually believe that Kenny did shove Matt on purpose (by which I mean that we're not supposed to think he would have shoved the person grabbing him from behind if he knew it was Matt). This is the same. I honestly don't see how it is possible, based on everything we've seen and been told about his character in the past, to think that this would be something that would turn Marty against Kenny unless the idea is that Marty is being a giant hypocrite, at which point he becomes a heel by definition and not someone we are supposed to believe or identify with.

Find me one angle in wrestling history that wasn't babyface vs. babyface where everyone watching wasn't supposed to reach the same conclusion. The only one you'll be able to come up with is the ROH vs. CZW feud, and even that was dealing with- and targeted at- two radically different fanbases and was specifically designed to be viewed different by those different fanbases.

Yes, some people identified with Rock more than Austin or vice-versa, but I don't think there were very many people who identified with Vince.
no one believes that Kenny attacked Matt on purpose at all, but surely some people think that Kenny could have dealt with it different and some that understand that Kenny doesn't mean ill and hasn't had a chance to make it up to them.

You want an example, quick one is Punk vs Cena, heel Punk vs Cena still had a lot of people siding with Punk because he spoke the truth. Punk vs Jeff Hardy too, Punk AS a heel had a lot of people behind him because even while being a jerk, he was telling you to not do drugs.
Image

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 20200
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Favorite Wrestler: Kane

Re: BRM Reviews ROH/NJPW Honor Rising 2018: Night 2

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 4th, '18, 12:46

cero2k wrote:
Mar 4th, '18, 11:38
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 3rd, '18, 17:35

Because there are people in this world who don't use Twitter or don't follow Marty on it. It's okay to do it on Twitter, but you need to explain it on the show, too. Loathe as I am to compliment WWE's use of Social Media in angles, but whenever something happens on Twitter, they don't show you the match/segment it's relevant in until they've put the relevant Tweet up on the TV screen for you to see.
we haven't seen the follow up on neither BTE nor NJPW. If you don't follow twitter then you have to wait to see what happens and not just assume that it's all shit, and it's like this with every promotion in the world. PROGRESS and PWG announce matches WITH consequences of the previous show without releasing the previous show. EVOLVE features a championship that gets defended in other promotions. CHIKARA does written blogs. ROH/NJPW share promotions and wrestlers. WWE runs interviews post-show ON a network you HAVE to pay for, not even youtube. Like i said, if someone wants all details covered, then put in the extra effort.
The difference is that those company's would have done something at the show- even just a questioning comment by the announcers about the situation- to let me know that there was an explanation coming. New Japan doesn't do that. I don't remember anyone asking Marty in the post-show press conference what he meant when he said that Kenny chose Ibushi over him, or calling him out on this inconsistent behavior. The fact is that right now, you and I are both operating off of head-canon to fill in holes, and I don't have faith that this will all make sense in the end because when you look at the people in charge of this angle (Kenny, Cody, the Bucks, Gedo, Delirious) almost none of them have a good track record of making sure that things make sense.
cero2k wrote:
Mar 4th, '18, 11:38
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 3rd, '18, 17:35
What I'm looking for is internal consistency within the characters. I find it hard to believe- based on the way that Marty himself has acted, even within heel vs. heel matches- that he would get so f*cking upset at Omega for hitting a double-team maneuver on him (which is technically illegal, but that rule is broken by both sides in just about every singles tag team match, anyway). Also, if that was the thing that made Marty switch sides then why was he still on the fence at the end of the first match when Cody claimed that Omega started the post-match brawl? Shouldn't he have been on Cody's side at that point?
maybe that is the whole deal, he IS indeed a heel and someone called "The Villain" and this isn't heel vs heel, this himself vs what we could believe to be one of his best friends in NJPW.
then he should say that! If he feels betrayed by Kenny then he should tell us WHY. Let him cut the big passionate money promo and set up a big-money Scurll vs. Omega match!
cero2k wrote:
Mar 4th, '18, 11:38
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 3rd, '18, 17:35
My point with CHAOS is that it seems even worse for Marty to be so upset about that when he is part of a heel group that has no problem cheating, when CHAOS, a group of rule-abiding babyfaces except for Yano, don't even seem to get upset with Yano when he cheats to screw one of their own people out of a match. And yes, you can be okay with Yano kicking you in the nuts three years ago but no be okay with it today... but you need to answer the question of what changed. Is this the eighth time he's done it and you told him to knock that sh*t off but he did it anyway? Are you upset because last time it happened in an opening night G1 match but this time it happened on the second to last night of the G1 and caused you to be mathematically eliminated from the tournament? You need a reason for something to have changed because leaving it at "I changed my mind this time" is bad storytelling.

Roman is certainly not a goody-two-shoes. I'm not saying it would work for him if he was, but that is not the reason Roman is having problems.
It only looks 'worse' if you assume that everyone in the world has to follow the same moral rules. I don't understand why you want all heels to react the same and the babyfaces to have the same moral standards. And I agree that you probably need to mention why someone turned and got tired of Yano's shit, but I really can't recall a heel turn like that that hasn't been followed by a promo explain it.
I don't want them all to act the same. I want them to have the same base- for example, no babyface should cheat totally out of the blue- but if babyface Austin Aries responded to a heel trying to pull his tights on a roll-up by turning it over and pulling the heel's tights in return, it wouldn't bother me whereas it would bother me if you replaced Aries with John Cena.
My issue with CHAOS is that they would get upset if anyone else cheated against them, and apparently Ishii is not allowed to challenge for Okada's title despite having pinned Okada cleanly because they're both part of the same faction and thus we can't risk them having a match together lest it turn ugly (even though it never has when they've faced off in the past)... and yet while they're so worried about Okada and Ishii getting to a fight if they have a total babyface vs. babyface match against each other, they tolerate Yano hitting them all in the testicles.

cero2k wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 15:47
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 3rd, '18, 17:35
I think we are supposed to reach the same conclusion. We're all supposed to be understand why the Bucks got upset at Kenny in Sapporo, but we're not not supposed to actually believe that Kenny did shove Matt on purpose (by which I mean that we're not supposed to think he would have shoved the person grabbing him from behind if he knew it was Matt). This is the same. I honestly don't see how it is possible, based on everything we've seen and been told about his character in the past, to think that this would be something that would turn Marty against Kenny unless the idea is that Marty is being a giant hypocrite, at which point he becomes a heel by definition and not someone we are supposed to believe or identify with.

Find me one angle in wrestling history that wasn't babyface vs. babyface where everyone watching wasn't supposed to reach the same conclusion. The only one you'll be able to come up with is the ROH vs. CZW feud, and even that was dealing with- and targeted at- two radically different fanbases and was specifically designed to be viewed different by those different fanbases.

Yes, some people identified with Rock more than Austin or vice-versa, but I don't think there were very many people who identified with Vince.
no one believes that Kenny attacked Matt on purpose at all, but surely some people think that Kenny could have dealt with it different and some that understand that Kenny doesn't mean ill and hasn't had a chance to make it up to them.
Okay... but I'm having trouble believing that Kenny didn't call them on the phone to apologize between now and then. They certainly seemed to be on much better terms tonight then they were last month. I'm also having trouble seeing how Kenny could have reasonably handled himself differently there. He's a wrestler. AS guy grabs you from behind, you turn around swinging. That's instinct.
cero2k wrote:
Mar 2nd, '18, 15:47
You want an example, quick one is Punk vs Cena, heel Punk vs Cena still had a lot of people siding with Punk because he spoke the truth. Punk vs Jeff Hardy too, Punk AS a heel had a lot of people behind him because even while being a jerk, he was telling you to not do drugs.
I'm not sure Punk was a heel after his promo on Cena. I don't remember him being a dick to anyone side from Vince (himself a heel) from that point on-wards.
As for Punk and Jeff, I think kayfabe Jeff Hardy would have told you not to do drugs, too, and the idea of the character for the past nine months had been that he did drugs in the past but didn't anymore (I'm pretty sure Matt mentioned something about this in one of his heel promos on Jeff that winter). The Punk character has always been telling people not to do drugs. It's the attitude of moral superiority that makes him a heel. Punk wasn't a babyface because he was telling people not to do drugs. Punk was a heel because he was treating Jeff with that same attitude even though Jeff kayfabe no longer used drugs, and because he was heeling on the fans for their reaction to his cash-in on Jeff.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
WWE in 2005
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
NOVA 2018 Commonwealth Cup
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
ECW Guilty As Charged 1999

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests