BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

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Big Red Machine
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BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 25th, '17, 22:32

ROH Best in the World 2017 (6/23/2017)- Lowell, MA

LUCHA RULES TAG TEAM MATCH: The Kingdom (w/T.K. O’Ryan) vs. Team CMLL (Ultimo Guerrero & El Terrible)- 5/10
Ian Riccaboni claims that there is “a lot of history in this match,” which shocked the hell out of me. Ian then went on to detail the history between these teams, which was that The Kingdom won a semi-final match in the ROH World Six-Man Tag Team Title Tournament against a team which included Ultimo Guerrero. Yes, apparently ONE THING (which doesn’t even include everyone in the match) qualifies as “a lot.” If we could not say dumb sh*t for the rest of the PPV, I’d really appreciate that. And you don’t need to sell me the match anymore, Ian. If I’m hearing your voice right now it means I already bought the PPV.
The Kingdom’s entrance was over the top to the point of looking extremely stupid. Also speaking of stupid, someone needs to tell Ian RIccaboni that’s it’s 2017, not 1977, so no one is going to be outraged that T.K. O’Ryan is “not licensed to be out here by the state of Massachusetts.” Maybe instead you should be outraged over the fact that he it hit someone with a weapon.
Also speaking of stupid: Vinny Marseglia’s continued employment. The entire extent of his “character” (and I use that term extremely loosely) is the catchphrase “I do this thing called whatever I want,” which sounds like it was invented by an eighth-grader who isn’t nearly as cool or clever as he thinks he is. This catchphrase is put into action via the only move in Vinny’s moveset that I ever remember him doing, which is “bite.” He’s like my level 12 Rattata except dumber because when the Rattata uses bite at least it’s not pointlessly risking a disqualification for doing so.
The match was passable, which really isn’t acceptable for an ROH PPV. Marseglia, as documented above, sucks, El Terrible looked unremarkable, Taven was barely more impressive than that, and UG was impressive for his advanced age, but his stuff plays much better for the live crowd than it does for those of us watching at home. This is the sort of match that, if you have to do it at all, you do as a dark match so as to not waste PPV time with mediocrity.

STRAP MATCH: Adam Page vs. Frankie Kazarian- 7/10
This is a “Strap Match” like a “Lumberjack Strap Match” where the wrestlers just get straps to hit each other with, rather than the “touch all four corners” Strap Match like we’ve gotten in the past in ROH. I’m not saying I’m disappointed by this fact, but I think they need to come up with a distinctive name just to avoid confusion.
If the point of the match is that they hate each other so much they want to whip each other with straps then why is Kazarian going for a quick roll-up? Other than that one misstep early on, I thought this was pretty great. They made very good use of this less common variation of the stipulation by doing things like having Page rip Frankie’s strap off and throw it away so he had one and Frankie didn’t. That, plus a few other things they did, made Page feel more dangerous that he has felt in a very long time.
Much credit is also due to these two men for the pain they were willing to but themselves through here, both with the strap shots and with the bumps they took. That suplex onto the stairs must have absolutely sucked to take… but nowhere near as much as getting hit with that strap with nails in it. I was cringing in fear whenever they teased using it, and cringing in pain every time someone actually did make contact with it.
Kaz picked up the win here, which is yet another loss in a big match for Adam Page, but these two brought enough that it didn’t feel as bad because I felt like I was actually seeing a babyface get some much-needed revenge for once, and I definitely think this feud has enough steam for one more match, which Page should definitely win.

LOSING TEAM MUST DISBAND FOREVER: The Rebellion vs. Search & Destroy (Jonathan Gresham, Jay White, & the Motor City Machine Guns)- 6.75/10
The match was fine for the time it got. Gresham made Rhett tap out to the Octopus so after over an entire year in which they engaged in just this one feud, of which this was the only match with any sort of consequences, The Cabinet/The Rebellion is finally done with. Thank G-d.

POST-MATCH SEGMENT- Punishment Martinez jumps the babyfaces and beats them up after the match to continue his feud with Jay White.

JAY LETHAL vs. SILAS YOUNG (w/Beer City Bruiser)- 7.5/10
Lethal took BCB out with a chair on his way to the ring to prevent him from being a factor in this match.
Silas hit Lethal with a chair in a way that seemed almost impossible for the referee to not see it but not only was no DQ called, but the announcers didn’t even react like this was illegal. This is the sort of thing that really bothers me, especially when your finish revolves around the referee warning Silas not to use a foreign object.
They told a good story with Silas working over Lethal’s midsection and had some convincing false finishes. We then got the finish, which saw Silas bring BCB’s keg into the ring and set Lethal’s head up on it. The referee stepped in to stop this but Silas shoved him down. Stuff happened quickly that resulted in Silas having Lethal down for the pin but the referee didn’t start counting in time because he was recovering from being shoved by Silas, which allowed Lethal to roll the roll-up over into one of his own for the pin. I like the way this plays into the feud (Silas believes the company is favoring Lethal by giving him various endorsement deals, so finish like this now gives a heel like Silas reason to believe they are having their officials favor him in the ring as well), but I really wish they had done some kind of normal soft ref bump rather than Silas trying to blatantly use a foreign object and then pushing the referee when the referee told him not to. A normal ref bump would give Silas a lot more cause to be upset, plus would have avoided the fact that the first thing Sinclair did when he recovered from the shove should have been to DQ Silas (plus there is the issue of Silas shoving a referee, which should result in a suspension). In fact, when combined with Silas’ defeat of Lethal at Unauthorized, Silas could start to claim that he truly is better than Lethal and the company knows it but they are favoring Lethal because he is more marketable (and when Lethal comes back from the injuries he surely sustained in the post-match segment you could even give Silas a clean win the return match via focusing on those injuries to add even more fuel to Silas’ fire while still keeping Lethal strong). I really wish ROH would get away from this extremely un-ROH mentality that “heels must always cheat,” because once you get out of that mentality you are no longer caught in mindset that results in shortcutting yourself into problems the line ones this version of the finish creates, and which allows you to find solutions that enhance the story more as well as giving your heels more credibility.

POST-MATCH SEGMENT- great angle
After the match Silas immediately clotheslined Lethal and the Beer City Bruiser came out to join Silas in a beat-down. Silas gave Lethal Misery with his ribs landing on the keg. Some referees came out to stand there and do nothing while the beating continued. They wedged the keg in the corner and Silas held Lethal’s arms to keep him in place while BCB splashed him repeatedly, driving his ribs into the keg. Then they set Lethal up on a table and BCB splashed him through it. Doesn’t ROH have any security? Or doesn’t Jay Lethal have any friends?

ROH WORLD SIX-MAN TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: The Briscoes & Bully Ray(c) vs. Dalton Castle & The Boys- DUD!
I like (read as: “hate”) how this six-man tag-team title match is happening because Dalton’s Boys created a chain of events that lead to a totally different team pinning one of the champs, and there has been no discussion whatsoever of that team getting a title shot, but the guy whose valets did something illegal to cause the loss (Dalton lost, too in that match, by the way) are being rewarded with a title shot.
Oh my G-d we finally get a Bully Ray match where he doesn’t cut a pre-match promo turning into a hardcore match for no reason other than because he says so.
The story here was that Jay was ultra-focused on getting revenge on the Boys and Mark and Bully had to calm him down, but for some reason Bully Ray was constantly getting into what he seemed to think were supposed to be intense stare-downs with Dalton Castle, seemingly over literally nothing. It really felt like Bully trying to steal the attention for himself, like he did by giving his speech to the Guerrillas of Destiny at Supercard of Honor XI, and like he always does when he makes his matches hardcore matches. Bully Ray’s very presence is infuriating to me because, more than anyone else who has ever appeared in ROH, Bully seems to be completely 100% out for himself.
Now he’s no-selling Dalton’s chops. Now he’s punching the crap out of Dalton. Dalton avoids the Bionic Elbow and instead of trying offense, he just hits his pose. Bully stares at Dalton intensely for a good minute straight… and then starts DANCING. In the middle of a f*cking title match on f*cking PPV, against a guy who he has spent every previous moment he has been in this match staring intensely at. Now he’s doing Dalton’s pose because apparently this is supposed to be funny. Or maybe it’s supposed to insult Dalton. If I can’t tell if the thing you’re doing is supposed to be comedy or supposed to be a metaphorical slap in your opponent’s face, you’re doing something wrong. This fat dumbf*ck with “hardcore” written on his gear and who talks about how “hardcore” he is in every promo is doing f*cking comedy. There is nothing I want more in the entire world right now than for Bully Ray to just disappear forever.
Now Dalton is posing, too. Attention Lowell crowd: anyone who is not loudly chanting “WE WANT WRESTLING!” right now (that would be ALL of you) is not a real ROH fan. I don’t care if that offends anyone. If you want to laugh and cheer at people dancing, go watch WWE or CHIKARA or some other ha-ha funny “entertainment” promotion. This is Ring of Honor. Ring of Honor is for WRESTLING.
After Dalton did his pose, Bully angrily slapped him. I have no idea why Bully is angry all of a sudden. I mean from a kayfabe point of view. Outside of kayfabe he is suddenly angry again because knows slapping someone very hard like that will get him the reaction. Not “the match.” Him. Because this match is supposed to be about Jay Briscoe going after the Boys, remember? Bully clearly doesn’t. Or more likely he just doesn’t care. And for the record, in this ROH World Six-Man Tag Team Title match on live PPV, we went almost two whole minutes with no one touching each other so that we could have a completely pointless pose-down.
Dalton tags out to both Boys at the same time. They’re not sure which of them is legal, so Bully throws them both in, then knocks each one down with a hard slap. Jay Briscoe wants in… so Bully Ray spends a full fifteen seconds milking the crowd before he makes the tag.
Jay bears down on one of the Boys. Then Dalton Castle distracts the referee so the other Boy can kick Jay in the testicles. From behind, no less. So I guess this is a heel turn for Dalton & the Boys? Sure seems like it should be.
The fans are now chanting for the Boys as they attack Jay. Again: the ROH crowd is chanting for the comedy dorks as they beat down Jay Briscoe after they kicked him in the nuts. What the f*ck is wrong with these people?!
The Boy in the ring then tagged out to Dalton when he saw Jay beginning to recover which is chicken-sh*t heel 101. Dalton and Jay do some actual wrestling. Mark tags in and beats up the Boys. Bully comes in just to have Mark give one Boy a Whazzzzup. Referee Paul Turner at least tried to distract himself with Dalton Castle, but it’s still not good to have the babyfaces cheating when they’re taking on a team that even the announcers acknowledged was basically one guy who was an actual threat.
Then Bully told Mark to “GET THE TABLES!” because I guess he’s a dumbf*ck and wants to get disqualified. The fans are chanting “GET THE TABLES!” because they, too, are dumb and want to see a f*cking table bump- something we see on just about every single ROH show (and that’s not even counting all of the times it happens in other promotions)- so badly that they’d happily have a DQ finish in a title match just to see it. Where did the real ROH fans go?
Jay gets a chair and throws it at one of the Boys. The Boy in question ducks, but he and his compatriot run off into the crowd because they’re cowards, who will kick a man in the nuts and then run away rather than fight him, even two-on-one. Jay wants to follow them but Bully Ray grabs him and tells him not to. So Bully is the one telling Jay to calm down, and yet Bully is the one who wants to perform illegal maneuvers… and for absolutely no reason. WHAT THE F*CK?!
Then Dalton Castle rolled Mark Briscoe up for the pin, meaning that a pair of f*cking COMEDY JOBBERS are two thirds of the ROH World Six-Man Tag Team Champions. And everyone cheers, because while they might be dirty scumbag cowardly cheaters who did nothing earn this title shot (or the previous two they got at these same titles), they do funny poses so YAY! I didn’t think these titles could possibly be made to mean less than they already did, but Delirious found a way.
And now they’re chanting “YOU DESERVE IT!” HOW?! Please explain to me what these guys did to “deserve” to win these titles. Anyone. Doesn’t even have to be someone from the crowd in Lowell. I’ll take an explanation from anyone. What in kayfabe did Dalton Castle and the Boys do to “deserve” to win these titles?
This match was just one big pile of stupid. The only bits of it that were good were when the Briscoes were in the ring with Dalton or Jay was trying to kill the Boys, but everything else that happened, piled on top of the moronic crowd completely killed this match.
And as the cherry on top of this pile of horse manure everyone seems to be trying to pass off as an ice cream sundae, we see Dalton and the Boys celebrating with their titles, but we keep cutting back to the ramp to see them being glared at angrily by… that’s right: Bully Ray. Not Jay Briscoe, who was the one angry at them going in, who they kicked in the groin in this match, and who was angry enough to throw a chair at the Boys and risk disqualification, but Bully “I can’t believe I tricked this mahk in the lizahd mask to let me do whatever I want” Ray.
There has not been one single Bully Ray match so far in his four months in ROH that I would not have enjoyed more if Bully Ray was swapped out for anyone else. Cheeseburger would have made all of those matches better. Even Vinny Marseglia would have made them easier for me to watch because he is a bit better in the ring, and although he is equally intolerable to me, Marseglia seems to be intolerable to much of the fanbase as well, while Bully’s crappiness is cheered because once upon a time he used to be a good tag team wrestler.

ROH TV TITLE MATCH: KUSHIDA(c) vs. Marty Scurll- 8/10
Props to KUSHIDA for schlepping his Best of the Super Juniors Tournament trophy all the way across the Pacific Ocean. It really puts over how proud he is of this accomplishment, even after regaining the IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title with the title shot he earned with that win.
When KUSHIDA does his wind-up punch Ian Riccaboni not only does the annoying “make pointless connection to local sports star” thing, but then has to immediately spout off the name of a second Japanese pitcher because I guess he thinks his cliché announcing is actually clever. Then, barely a minute later, we get first KUSHIDA doing the arm-trap head-stomps, then Marty Scurll doing the crucifix elbow strikes and not once does he mention Bryan Danielson.
Scurll started off working the head and KUSHIDA started off working over the arm but they both changed it up in the middle of the match and switched to the extremity the other had been working. Awesome match.

TIME IS WASTED SHOWING HIGHLIGHTS OF A WOMEN OF HONOR DARK MATCH- They are wasting time on a f*cking PPV plugging s*t that they put up for free on their YouTube channel. Delirious needs to face the facts, and the facts are that NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE ROH WOMEN’S DIVISION. They just don’t. This is the second time you’ve tried this. It didn’t work in 2013 and it’s going to work even worse now because there is now good women’s wrestling for free in WWE, and dedicated fans of women’s wrestling are going to pay for more established brands like SHIMMER and SHINE or hotter promotions like STARDOM, so even if some people do watch the pointless ten minute match you put up on YouTube every Wednesday, they’re still not going to PAY for Women of Honor matches, so why are you even having them? They’re just a drain on money and work-hours. I’m sorry to say it, but it’s the truth.
And even if people were willing to pay for the Women of Honor, the way they have been presented has ensured that no one will pay for them. They have a fifth-rate roster with next to nothing going on story-wise, and the few times they do have any sort of story ROH does a terrible job of communicating it to the larger ROH audience. For example, you know how Kelly Klein has been undefeated going back to her ROH debut in October 2015? Well she actually lost her first match two months ago. It was by count-out, to a woman named Karen Q who was making her ROH debut that night. That sounds like a major upset; like the sort of thing that should have been HUGE news. Well I just found out about it right now because despite happening over TWO MONTHS AGO, it was NEVER ONCE MENTIONED ON THE ROH WEBSITE. But yeah. You wasting my PPV time to show me clips of a completely random tag team match with four women competing for next to nothing because there is no title in the division is definitely going to make me buy that stupid “Women of Honor” t-shirt you’ve been plugging on every TV show for the past year.

ROH WORLD TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: The Young Bucks(c) vs. War Machine-
War Machine are now wearing furs and goofy helmets. They look very stupid. They look like they’re trying to do a caveman gimmick. What was wrong with the face-paint and limited body armor that they had before? That screamed “WARRIOR!” These things scream “COSTUME!”
Before the match can start Best Friends come out and Trent cuts a promo pointing out that they beat the Bucks in Philly last month (it aired a few weeks ago), and so they want a tag title shot, and if it’s okay with War Machine and the Young Bucks, they’d like to get their shot right now and also make this a tornado match. Okay…
Let me get this straight: Last month these guys got a win over the Bucks and they figure that entitles them to a shot that Bucks’ championship. So far so good. Then, rather than talk to ROH officials backstage after the show or just call up ROH management the next day (or at ANY POINT IN THE PAST MONTH) and make this argument directly to the people who actually have the power to make these decisions, they decided that the best course of action would be to wait to the PPV, fly themselves in with no guarantee of even having a match on the card, then wait until the title match was about to begin and just ask for a title shot, and hope that the Young Bucks (who are supposed to be heels!) or War Machine won’t refuse to have this match changed, even though they would be perfectly within their rights to do so. What a pair of morons!
It would have been SOOOOO simple to just f*cking announce on the website that Best Friends had been added to this match the Monday after their win aired and save yourself the promo time here as well as not make your babyfaces look like idiots and actually deliver the exact card you advertised. But no. We had to have surprise on our PPV because surprises are unpredictable, and as we all know, making things unpredictable is much more important than making things make sense. That’s why Vince Russo is such a universally acclaimed booker.
Anyway, now it’s a…

TORNADO TAG TEAM MATCH FOR THE ROH WORLD TAG TEAM TITLES: The Young Bucks(c) vs. War Machine vs. Best Friends- 6/10
SPOTS. And a lot of them were very frustrating.
There has been a lot of talk recently about the idea of fans who come to the show to appreciate wrestling as an art form and fans who come to the shows due to having an emotional investment in the characters. If you want to appreciate wrestling as an art form then that’s great. I certainly do (although I do so from a story-driven, emotion-based perspective). A good chunk of what we got in this match, I think, is an example of a disturbing trend of wrestlers taking this in the wrong direction.
This match was full of spots like “everybody takes a turn doing their dive on to the progressively bigger pile” or “everybody takes turns missing a moonsault” or “everyone hits each other and we all fall down at the same time” or “everyone get in a circle go around the circle punching the person next to you (aside from Best Friends, who decide they have to do their comedy schtik in a title match).” This isn’t the first time I’ve seen all of these spots (they’ve been all too commonplace for the past few years) but this was the first time it hit me what was going on. Pro wrestling is like a book or a play or a movie: it’s supposed to tell a story, and the basic outline of that story should be obvious to any observer. The clarity of the storytelling is valued. Nuances (like a guy reversing the finisher that beat him in their last match) add on to this to make something already good become even greater but the important part is that everyone watching understands that one guy was working over the other guy’s arm all match). Where matches like this one go wrong is that they do spots like the ones I mentioned above that change what is going on from a movie or play into a dance recital, where the attention is on things like synchronicity and fluidity of movement the idea of making sure that those watching understand whatever story is being told- if there even is one- becomes secondary or even tertiary. As a result, rather than the focus being on the characters the actors are bringing to life via their performances, the focus is on “non-kayfabe” aspects like the impressive athletic abilities of the dancers and the moves the choreographer has planned out for them. In matches like these the focus is not on the story of which team will walk out with the tag titles and what twists and turns in the road will occur on their journey; it’s on the impressive athletic and artistic feats performed by Nick & Matt Massie, Greg Marasciulo, Dustin Howard, Todd Smith, & *INSERT RAY ROWE’S SHOOT NAME HERE* were, and what a cool match they laid out. They’re trying to make you smark out when they should be trying to make you mark out.



There is a guy in the front row wearing what appears to be a Vinny Marseglia t-shirt. That must have been a gift from a relative who didn’t know any better and he would have felt bad if he threw it out so he kept it. And today was laundry day. All of the clothing stores in a fifty-mile radius were closed. That’s the only possible way I can imagine someone wearing a Vinny Marseglia shirt in public. But even then he should have at least covered the logo over with duct tape. Have some dignity, dude.

ROH WORLD TITLE MATCH: Christopher Daniels(c) vs. Cody Rhodes- 6.75/10
The whole angle here is that is Cody is claiming that ROH Management is for some reason “afraid” of having a free agent as the world champion. Being a smart, logical, heel, BJ Whitmer asked “what would be so bad about that?” Ian Riccaboni could not give him a real answer, simply resorting to saying that Cody is a “coward” who used his lawyers to get him this title shot. If your announcers can’t even answer the most obvious question someone would ask about your angle, then your angle is not good enough.
Ian Riccaboni is talking about how impressive it is that Cody beat Jay Lethal in his ROH debut, but doesn’t seem to be able to remember the fact that CODY CHEATED, so he’s talking about this victory that to everyone watching was a shocking heel turn, as if it was completely clean. WHAT THE F*CK?! How do you not remember that?! They had a feud about it that just ended last month, and Ian himself called almost the entire thing!
Lots of stalling from Cody in the beginning of the match, and some more in the middle. Then a ref bump with TWO visual pinfalls for the babyface, attempted interference (we’ll get to that bit in a moment), a low blow… they did everything they could to convince me that Cody will be a kayfabe unworthy champion. But in doing so, they have succeeded in making me think that he won’t be a worthy champion outside of kayfabe as well. His attempts to be an early 1980s stalling heel who spends his time yacking with the crowd and overacting show me that Cody just doesn’t understand what Ring of Honor needs from its wrestlers, never mind its world champion. I just don’t have faith that his matches will be very good. The only guy on the indies who I’ve seen pull an 8/10 or higher (the level I expect of the world champion in a company like ROH, EVOLVE, or PWG, which touts itself so highly on its work-rate) out of Cody is Zack Sabre Jr.- who won’t be showing up in ROH anytime soon because he works for WWN, and both of those matches were pure babyface vs. babyface, which isn’t what we’ll be getting from Cody as ROH World Champion. Combine that with Delirious’ love for overbooking and other bullsh*t that goes against everything ROH is supposed to be, and the concept of an ROH World Title match isn’t a draw for me anymore. It’s one more thing they’ve done that makes spending money on the product less appealing. This show was a freakin’ PPV and, with th exception of one match- the only match featuring a guy who works full-time for a different promotion- the show was completely middling. If they can’t guarantee me a worthwhile show on a PPV why should I think they can on any other show? A lot of my favorite guys on the roster have left due to being misused and/or falling out of love with wrestling for ROH (but still loving it everywhere else), the storylines are bad, we’ve got tons of comedy all over the card, gimmick matches running rampant, no consistency, bad announcing, I don’t trust that I’ll get clean finishes in important matches anymore, and now I can’t even trust in the idea that a world title match will deliver anymore. What’s left?
I’m supposed to be an ROH fan, right? And then I see all of this stuff going wrong, and this f*cking crowd…
Cody Rhodes, a cheating heel who has been putting on sub-par matches all over the indies and who wouldn’t be getting a second look from anyone if not for father’s legacy and the fact that he was on WWE TV for a long time, is challenging a babyface Christopher Daniels, one of the founding fathers of ROH who has finally managed to win the ROH World Title. We get a ref bump, and Cody’s stablemate Marty Scurll comes out with a steel chair to interfere in the match… and the fans cheer.
And I screamed.
And I screamed and screamed and screamed.

WHAT THE F*CK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?! How the hell have things gone so wrong that someone shows up in a main event world title match to interfere on behalf of an overrated loser heel trying to put on 1980s wrestling matches against a babyface Christopher Daniels, and everyone in the crowd is cheering? What has ROH come to?

I’ve been following this promotion for almost a decade now (I first heard about it after the Age of the Fall debut, followed loosely until Take No Prisoners and really started to like it enough that I went back and read nearly every single thread on the entire original forum (loved those show reports!) to learn everything I could about it. After hearing people Rave about the Danielson vs. McGuinness main event of Rising Above 2008 I decided I had to see ROH for myself so I bought a ticket to my first show, which would be Injustice II. The day before the show was the airing of Rising Above so I bought that and, knowing the results of the matches already from having read the show reports the day it came out, I skipped right to the main event and was completely blown away. The next night I was blown away again, first by Bryan and Jerry Lynn, and then Nigel McGuinness and Tyler Black completely knocked my socks off, and from that point on I became a die-hard ROH fan. I went to every show I could in the New York/North Jersey area, plus I splurged for a train ticket from DC to Philly just to be at the second day of HDnet tapings. The first show I couldn’t make it to in my area was Glory By Honor VIII: The Final Countdown, featuring the two men who made me a fan of independent wrestling with the very first match I saw as the main event in what would be their last night as members of the ROH roster. Not being able to be there was disappointing, but it did push me to buy that event the moment it came out on DVD. That would be my first of several hundred. Between DVDs and VODs I have purchased, in one form or another, almost every single show ROH has ever put on. And I do mean almost every. The only ones I haven’t have been Honor Rising 2016: Night 2 this year’s Toronto show (which I was just waiting for a sale for), and this most recent weekend in Chicago/Collinsville. I have purchased a few compilations, about twenty Straight Shootin’ DVDs, every single “Secrets of the Ring” release, every single HD “Best Of” aside from vol. 2 (which I am interested in purchasing if anyone reading this has one to sell). And in just two short years- but mostly really in just a period of the past six months- they have pushed me to the point where I think I need to take a break. I’ll still follow the promotion from afar, but don’t expect any reviews of new shows from me for a while. I’ve still got some old stuff to watch and I will still contribute to discussion, but at this point, if I’m going to watch ROH, and I want it to be the ROH that I loved.



STUPID ANNOUNCER QUOTES:
1. During the post-match beat-down of Jay Lethal, Ian Riccaboni said that “we are seeing something reminiscent of Lexington and Concord unfold before our eyes.”
This has to be up there as one of the stupider comparisons I’ve ever heard an announcer make that didn’t involve misunderstanding/misrepresenting the story. In what possible way is two dudes trying to injure a third dude by throwing him into a beer keg reminiscent of Lexington and Concord? It’s amazing how the urge to pointlessly remind those watching at home where the show is taking place leads announcers to say the stupidest of things.


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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by cero2k » Jun 26th, '17, 10:37

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 25th, '17, 22:32

LUCHA RULES TAG TEAM MATCH: The Kingdom (w/T.K. O’Ryan) vs. Team CMLL (Ultimo Guerrero & El Terrible)- 5/10
Ian Riccaboni claims that there is “a lot of history in this match,” which shocked the hell out of me. Ian then went on to detail the history between these teams, which was that The Kingdom won a semi-final match in the ROH World Six-Man Tag Team Title Tournament against a team which included Ultimo Guerrero. Yes, apparently ONE THING (which doesn’t even include everyone in the match) qualifies as “a lot.” If we could not say dumb sh*t for the rest of the PPV, I’d really appreciate that. And you don’t need to sell me the match anymore, Ian. If I’m hearing your voice right now it means I already bought the PPV.
He failed to mention it, but Taven and Guerrero have been feuding in Mexico for a while

POST-MATCH SEGMENT- great angle
After the match Silas immediately clotheslined Lethal and the Beer City Bruiser came out to join Silas in a beat-down. Silas gave Lethal Misery with his ribs landing on the keg. Some referees came out to stand there and do nothing while the beating continued. They wedged the keg in the corner and Silas held Lethal’s arms to keep him in place while BCB splashed him repeatedly, driving his ribs into the keg. Then they set Lethal up on a table and BCB splashed him through it. Doesn’t ROH have any security? Or doesn’t Jay Lethal have any friends?
Security only comes out when someone calls them out, and no, Lethal has no friends, he was a dick for a long time and then he turned on his heel friends too


ROH WORLD SIX-MAN TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: The Briscoes & Bully Ray(c) vs. Dalton Castle & The Boys- DUD!

The story here was that Jay was ultra-focused on getting revenge on the Boys and Mark and Bully had to calm him down, but for some reason Bully Ray was constantly getting into what he seemed to think were supposed to be intense stare-downs with Dalton Castle, seemingly over literally nothing. It really felt like Bully trying to steal the attention for himself, like he did by giving his speech to the Guerrillas of Destiny at Supercard of Honor XI, and like he always does when he makes his matches hardcore matches. Bully Ray’s very presence is infuriating to me because, more than anyone else who has ever appeared in ROH, Bully seems to be completely 100% out for himself.
Maybe that's something they'll use to build Jay vs Ray later on, there's definitely been tons of hints of Ray just wanting to be on the spotlight and just wanting things to be like his glory old days and he's dragging Mark Briscoe to his side

Now Dalton is posing, too. Attention Lowell crowd: anyone who is not loudly chanting “WE WANT WRESTLING!” right now (that would be ALL of you) is not a real ROH fan. I don’t care if that offends anyone. If you want to laugh and cheer at people dancing, go watch WWE or CHIKARA or some other ha-ha funny “entertainment” promotion. This is Ring of Honor. Ring of Honor is for WRESTLING.
Times changed man, real ROH fans are not the same that chanted for Nigel and Dragon back in they day,
that's what happens when companies get bigger and bigger, you start attracting the shitty WWE fans.


Then Dalton Castle rolled Mark Briscoe up for the pin, meaning that a pair of f*cking COMEDY JOBBERS are two thirds of the ROH World Six-Man Tag Team Champions. And everyone cheers, because while they might be dirty scumbag cowardly cheaters who did nothing earn this title shot (or the previous two they got at these same titles), they do funny poses so YAY! I didn’t think these titles could possibly be made to mean less than they already did, but Delirious found a way.
And now they’re chanting “YOU DESERVE IT!” HOW?! Please explain to me what these guys did to “deserve” to win these titles. Anyone. Doesn’t even have to be someone from the crowd in Lowell. I’ll take an explanation from anyone. What in kayfabe did Dalton Castle and the Boys do to “deserve” to win these titles?
The only thing that really bothers me is that we have two champions (jobber or not) without names

And as the cherry on top of this pile of horse manure everyone seems to be trying to pass off as an ice cream sundae, we see Dalton and the Boys celebrating with their titles, but we keep cutting back to the ramp to see them being glared at angrily by… that’s right: Bully Ray. Not Jay Briscoe, who was the one angry at them going in, who they kicked in the groin in this match, and who was angry enough to throw a chair at the Boys and risk disqualification, but Bully “I can’t believe I tricked this mahk in the lizahd mask to let me do whatever I want” Ray.
This does make sense, in Ray's world, The Briscoes (who he probably considers his lackeys) cost him his titles and his spotlight


ROH WORLD TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: The Young Bucks(c) vs. War Machine-
Before the match can start Best Friends come out and Trent cuts a promo pointing out that they beat the Bucks in Philly last month (it aired a few weeks ago), and so they want a tag title shot, and if it’s okay with War Machine and the Young Bucks, they’d like to get their shot right now and also make this a tornado match. Okay…
Let me get this straight: Last month these guys got a win over the Bucks and they figure that entitles them to a shot that Bucks’ championship. So far so good. Then, rather than talk to ROH officials backstage after the show or just call up ROH management the next day (or at ANY POINT IN THE PAST MONTH) and make this argument directly to the people who actually have the power to make these decisions, they decided that the best course of action would be to wait to the PPV, fly themselves in with no guarantee of even having a match on the card, then wait until the title match was about to begin and just ask for a title shot, and hope that the Young Bucks (who are supposed to be heels!) or War Machine won’t refuse to have this match changed, even though they would be perfectly within their rights to do so. What a pair of morons!that only works when you have a proper matchmaker stablished in kayfabe and as an on-screen character, otherwise it's perfectly ok to go straight to the champions (and challengers actually) to ask for the match,
if both of them are ok, then cool. War Machine are babyfaces, they're totally down for the challenge always. Bucks I can't think of a good reason why, but maybe knowing that it's easier to pin Beretta (who they just defeated some weeks back)
instead of War Machine.


There is a guy in the front row wearing what appears to be a Vinny Marseglia t-shirt. That must have been a gift from a relative who didn’t know any better and he would have felt bad if he threw it out so he kept it. And today was laundry day. All of the clothing stores in a fifty-mile radius were closed. That’s the only possible way I can imagine someone wearing a Vinny Marseglia shirt in public. But even then he should have at least covered the logo over with duct tape. Have some dignity, dude.
his QT Marshall shirt was dirty


ROH WORLD TITLE MATCH: Christopher Daniels(c) vs. Cody Rhodes- 6.75/10
I’m supposed to be an ROH fan, right? And then I see all of this stuff going wrong, and this f*cking crowd…
Cody Rhodes, a cheating heel who has been putting on sub-par matches all over the indies and who wouldn’t be getting a second look from anyone if not for father’s legacy and the fact that he was on WWE TV for a long time, is challenging a babyface Christopher Daniels, one of the founding fathers of ROH who has finally managed to win the ROH World Title. We get a ref bump, and Cody’s stablemate Marty Scurll comes out with a steel chair to interfere in the match… and the fans cheer.

WHAT THE F*CK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?! How the hell have things gone so wrong that someone shows up in a main event world title match to interfere on behalf of an overrated loser heel trying to put on 1980s wrestling matches against a babyface Christopher Daniels, and everyone in the crowd is cheering? What has ROH come to?
Fans love the Bullet Club just like tons of fans loved the nWo and the 4 Horsemen before them, this was totally a Bullet Club crowd, and on the same way, i've heard a lot of people against Daniels being the champ because of his age, it feels like a charity run, just because he's babyface doesn't mean fans should cheer.

And in just two short years- but mostly really in just a period of the past six months- they have pushed me to the point where I think I need to take a break. I’ll still follow the promotion from afar, but don’t expect any reviews of new shows from me for a while. I’ve still got some old stuff to watch and I will still contribute to discussion, but at this point, if I’m going to watch ROH, and I want it to be the ROH that I loved.
This one i'm not willing to take over, I already gave up once. Says a lot about ROH that i was happy to take over Impact, but not ROH. As a side note, we're now accepting applications for a new ROH analyzer

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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 26th, '17, 12:47

cero2k wrote:
Jun 26th, '17, 10:37
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 25th, '17, 22:32

LUCHA RULES TAG TEAM MATCH: The Kingdom (w/T.K. O’Ryan) vs. Team CMLL (Ultimo Guerrero & El Terrible)- 5/10
Ian Riccaboni claims that there is “a lot of history in this match,” which shocked the hell out of me. Ian then went on to detail the history between these teams, which was that The Kingdom won a semi-final match in the ROH World Six-Man Tag Team Title Tournament against a team which included Ultimo Guerrero. Yes, apparently ONE THING (which doesn’t even include everyone in the match) qualifies as “a lot.” If we could not say dumb sh*t for the rest of the PPV, I’d really appreciate that. And you don’t need to sell me the match anymore, Ian. If I’m hearing your voice right now it means I already bought the PPV.
He failed to mention it, but Taven and Guerrero have been feuding in Mexico for a while
Then Ian is incompetent. And BJ, should have known to say something, too.

POST-MATCH SEGMENT- great angle
After the match Silas immediately clotheslined Lethal and the Beer City Bruiser came out to join Silas in a beat-down. Silas gave Lethal Misery with his ribs landing on the keg. Some referees came out to stand there and do nothing while the beating continued. They wedged the keg in the corner and Silas held Lethal’s arms to keep him in place while BCB splashed him repeatedly, driving his ribs into the keg. Then they set Lethal up on a table and BCB splashed him through it. Doesn’t ROH have any security? Or doesn’t Jay Lethal have any friends?
Security only comes out when someone calls them out, and no, Lethal has no friends, he was a dick for a long time and then he turned on his heel friends too
And those referees standing there telling them to stop attacking Lethal did 't make the call?
The idea of Lethal having no friends coming off of his heel run like Alex Shelley after he got kicked out of Generation Next would be fine except he's been portrayed as having reconciled with others and as actually having friends.


ROH WORLD SIX-MAN TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: The Briscoes & Bully Ray(c) vs. Dalton Castle & The Boys- DUD!

The story here was that Jay was ultra-focused on getting revenge on the Boys and Mark and Bully had to calm him down, but for some reason Bully Ray was constantly getting into what he seemed to think were supposed to be intense stare-downs with Dalton Castle, seemingly over literally nothing. It really felt like Bully trying to steal the attention for himself, like he did by giving his speech to the Guerrillas of Destiny at Supercard of Honor XI, and like he always does when he makes his matches hardcore matches. Bully Ray’s very presence is infuriating to me because, more than anyone else who has ever appeared in ROH, Bully seems to be completely 100% out for himself.
Maybe that's something they'll use to build Jay vs Ray later on, there's definitely been tons of hints of Ray just wanting to be on the spotlight and just wanting things to be like his glory old days and he's dragging Mark Briscoe to his side
I mean not in a kayfabe way. And either way, it doesn't make the inconsistency of what happened here any less frustrating.

Now Dalton is posing, too. Attention Lowell crowd: anyone who is not loudly chanting “WE WANT WRESTLING!” right now (that would be ALL of you) is not a real ROH fan. I don’t care if that offends anyone. If you want to laugh and cheer at people dancing, go watch WWE or CHIKARA or some other ha-ha funny “entertainment” promotion. This is Ring of Honor. Ring of Honor is for WRESTLING.
Times changed man, real ROH fans are not the same that chanted for Nigel and Dragon back in they day,
that's what happens when companies get bigger and bigger, you start attracting the shitty WWE fans.

No. It's what happens when you invite this sort of atmosphere into your promotion by doing bullsh*t comedy all the time. The wrestlers lead the match, not the fans. If you don't give the comedy, they won't ask for it. If the booker had put his foot down and said "no more comedy" well before this got out of control then this would never have become an issue.
Then Dalton Castle rolled Mark Briscoe up for the pin, meaning that a pair of f*cking COMEDY JOBBERS are two thirds of the ROH World Six-Man Tag Team Champions. And everyone cheers, because while they might be dirty scumbag cowardly cheaters who did nothing earn this title shot (or the previous two they got at these same titles), they do funny poses so YAY! I didn’t think these titles could possibly be made to mean less than they already did, but Delirious found a way.
And now they’re chanting “YOU DESERVE IT!” HOW?! Please explain to me what these guys did to “deserve” to win these titles. Anyone. Doesn’t even have to be someone from the crowd in Lowell. I’ll take an explanation from anyone. What in kayfabe did Dalton Castle and the Boys do to “deserve” to win these titles?
The only thing that really bothers me is that we have two champions (jobber or not) without names
What's the difference between "Boy A" and "Masked Assassin #1"?

And as the cherry on top of this pile of horse manure everyone seems to be trying to pass off as an ice cream sundae, we see Dalton and the Boys celebrating with their titles, but we keep cutting back to the ramp to see them being glared at angrily by… that’s right: Bully Ray. Not Jay Briscoe, who was the one angry at them going in, who they kicked in the groin in this match, and who was angry enough to throw a chair at the Boys and risk disqualification, but Bully “I can’t believe I tricked this mahk in the lizahd mask to let me do whatever I want” Ray.
This does make sense, in Ray's world, The Briscoes (who he probably considers his lackeys) cost him his titles and his spotlight
But it's not kayfabe logical place for the attention to be right now.


ROH WORLD TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: The Young Bucks(c) vs. War Machine-
Before the match can start Best Friends come out and Trent cuts a promo pointing out that they beat the Bucks in Philly last month (it aired a few weeks ago), and so they want a tag title shot, and if it’s okay with War Machine and the Young Bucks, they’d like to get their shot right now and also make this a tornado match. Okay…
Let me get this straight: Last month these guys got a win over the Bucks and they figure that entitles them to a shot that Bucks’ championship. So far so good. Then, rather than talk to ROH officials backstage after the show or just call up ROH management the next day (or at ANY POINT IN THE PAST MONTH) and make this argument directly to the people who actually have the power to make these decisions, they decided that the best course of action would be to wait to the PPV, fly themselves in with no guarantee of even having a match on the card, then wait until the title match was about to begin and just ask for a title shot, and hope that the Young Bucks (who are supposed to be heels!) or War Machine won’t refuse to have this match changed, even though they would be perfectly within their rights to do so. What a pair of morons!that only works when you have a proper matchmaker stablished in kayfabe and as an on-screen character, otherwise it's perfectly ok to go straight to the champions (and challengers actually) to ask for the match,
if both of them are ok, then cool. War Machine are babyfaces, they're totally down for the challenge always. Bucks I can't think of a good reason why, but maybe knowing that it's easier to pin Beretta (who they just defeated some weeks back)
instead of War Machine.

Why does this only work if you have a named matchmaker? Someone has got to be booking the matches.

There is a guy in the front row wearing what appears to be a Vinny Marseglia t-shirt. That must have been a gift from a relative who didn’t know any better and he would have felt bad if he threw it out so he kept it. And today was laundry day. All of the clothing stores in a fifty-mile radius were closed. That’s the only possible way I can imagine someone wearing a Vinny Marseglia shirt in public. But even then he should have at least covered the logo over with duct tape. Have some dignity, dude.
his QT Marshall shirt was dirty
Better QT Marshall than Vinny Marseglia. But seriously, I don't know how well you know Futurama, but there is an episode that it is revealed that everyone got so sick of Star Trek that they took the original cast (aside from Nemoy) plus all of their merch, loaded them into a rocket, and shot them off to a far distant planet. I wish we could do the same to Marseglia Marshall, and Mike Mondo.

ROH WORLD TITLE MATCH: Christopher Daniels(c) vs. Cody Rhodes- 6.75/10
I’m supposed to be an ROH fan, right? And then I see all of this stuff going wrong, and this f*cking crowd…
Cody Rhodes, a cheating heel who has been putting on sub-par matches all over the indies and who wouldn’t be getting a second look from anyone if not for father’s legacy and the fact that he was on WWE TV for a long time, is challenging a babyface Christopher Daniels, one of the founding fathers of ROH who has finally managed to win the ROH World Title. We get a ref bump, and Cody’s stablemate Marty Scurll comes out with a steel chair to interfere in the match… and the fans cheer.

WHAT THE F*CK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?! How the hell have things gone so wrong that someone shows up in a main event world title match to interfere on behalf of an overrated loser heel trying to put on 1980s wrestling matches against a babyface Christopher Daniels, and everyone in the crowd is cheering? What has ROH come to?
Fans love the Bullet Club just like tons of fans loved the nWo and the 4 Horsemen before them, this was totally a Bullet Club crowd, and on the same way, i've heard a lot of people against Daniels being the champ because of his age, it feels like a charity run, just because he's babyface doesn't mean fans should cheer.
It's not "Bullet Club" in particular (although I will say that people cheering babyfaces and booing heels is the state that you as a booker should strike for, so if you have guys like the Young Bucks on your roster, turning them heel is moronic). It's the idea of people cheering a run-in in a world title main event. The Daniels/Cody aspect just makes it worse. These fans are cheering for the very essence of what ROH isn't supposed to be. Imagine ECW fans cheering for pre-NWO Hulk Hogan over Sabu.

And in just two short years- but mostly really in just a period of the past six months- they have pushed me to the point where I think I need to take a break. I’ll still follow the promotion from afar, but don’t expect any reviews of new shows from me for a while. I’ve still got some old stuff to watch and I will still contribute to discussion, but at this point, if I’m going to watch ROH, and I want it to be the ROH that I loved.
This one i'm not willing to take over, I already gave up once. Says a lot about ROH that i was happy to take over Impact, but not ROH. As a side note, we're now accepting applications for a new ROH analyzer
I'll still "follow" the promotion via discussion at ROHWorld, but I'm certainly not giving them any more of my money.
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by cero2k » Jun 26th, '17, 14:52

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 26th, '17, 12:47

Then Ian is incompetent. And BJ, should have known to say something, too.
I haven't heard enough Ian to really judge him, but BJ i for sure didn't like

And those referees standing there telling them to stop attacking Lethal did 't make the call?
The idea of Lethal having no friends coming off of his heel run like Alex Shelley after he got kicked out of Generation Next would be fine except he's been portrayed as having reconciled with others and as actually having friends.

then maybe his friends don't want to mess with BCB and Silas. It seems that someone will be eventually added to that storyline, maybe it will have to be someone from outside

What's the difference between "Boy A" and "Masked Assassin #1"?
A boy has a face, a face that has a birth certificate, and I'm not exactly against the name "Boy #1", but rather the fact that nothing differentiates Boy #1 from Boy #2

Why does this only work if you have a named matchmaker? Someone has got to be booking the matches.
Because if you do it with one, you have to do it with all of them, and you can only reference a booker enough until he/she/it becomes a kayfabe character. ROH right now doesn't really seem to want to have a 'booker' character

No. It's what happens when you invite this sort of atmosphere into your promotion by doing bullsh*t comedy all the time. The wrestlers lead the match, not the fans. If you don't give the comedy, they won't ask for it. If the booker had put his foot down and said "no more comedy" well before this got out of control then this would never have become an issue.
It's the idea of people cheering a run-in in a world title main event. The Daniels/Cody aspect just makes it worse. These fans are cheering for the very essence of what ROH isn't supposed to be. Imagine ECW fans cheering for pre-NWO Hulk Hogan over Sabu.
But this is not something you can blame on the fans, if Hogan came to ECW, he would be booked as a heel, if 'TNA Superstar' Trevor Lee comes to PWG, he is booked as a heel. If the fans are cheering against ROH's old essence, then maybe the essence has to change, or Delirious needs to find a way to book a way that even the Young Bucks get booed. Fans don't get a copy of the script when they come in to the show, they just react to what they like, and people, from WWE to the indie gym fed, they mostly ALL love run-ins. I'm gonna write a topic about this because it's gonna get big i feel.
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 26th, '17, 16:35

cero2k wrote:
Jun 26th, '17, 14:52
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 26th, '17, 12:47
Then Ian is incompetent. And BJ, should have known to say something, too.
I haven't heard enough Ian to really judge him, but BJ i for sure didn't like
I do seem to be in the minority with liking BJ. As for Ian, if there is history between these guys in one of your sister promotions, an announcer should know about it.

And those referees standing there telling them to stop attacking Lethal did 't make the call?
The idea of Lethal having no friends coming off of his heel run like Alex Shelley after he got kicked out of Generation Next would be fine except he's been portrayed as having reconciled with others and as actually having friends.

then maybe his friends don't want to mess with BCB and Silas. It seems that someone will be eventually added to that storyline, maybe it will have to be someone from outside
Looking at what has happened in past Silas feuds, no one has been brought in to counter BCB, either in the Dalton feud or the ACH feud.

What's the difference between "Boy A" and "Masked Assassin #1"?
A boy has a face, a face that has a birth certificate, and I'm not exactly against the name "Boy #1", but rather the fact that nothing differentiates Boy #1 from Boy #2
I agree that more differentiation would be good, but it doesn't bother me that there isn't much. I can't tell which Young Buck is which, either, but I'm sure the trick about remembering who has the lighter hair will work in this case as well.
Why does this only work if you have a named matchmaker? Someone has got to be booking the matches.
Because if you do it with one, you have to do it with all of them, and you can only reference a booker enough until he/she/it becomes a kayfabe character. ROH right now doesn't really seem to want to have a 'booker' character
One must inherently exist. Otherwise who is booking the matches? What's to stop a chickensh*t heel like Colt Cabana from refusing to face Dalton Castle forever? Who were The Rebellion angry at for not giving them opportunities?

No. It's what happens when you invite this sort of atmosphere into your promotion by doing bullsh*t comedy all the time. The wrestlers lead the match, not the fans. If you don't give the comedy, they won't ask for it. If the booker had put his foot down and said "no more comedy" well before this got out of control then this would never have become an issue.
It's the idea of people cheering a run-in in a world title main event. The Daniels/Cody aspect just makes it worse. These fans are cheering for the very essence of what ROH isn't supposed to be. Imagine ECW fans cheering for pre-NWO Hulk Hogan over Sabu.
But this is not something you can blame on the fans, if Hogan came to ECW, he would be booked as a heel, if 'TNA Superstar' Trevor Lee comes to PWG, he is booked as a heel. If the fans are cheering against ROH's old essence, then maybe the essence has to change, or Delirious needs to find a way to book a way that even the Young Bucks get booed. Fans don't get a copy of the script when they come in to the show, they just react to what they like, and people, from WWE to the indie gym fed, they mostly ALL love run-ins. I'm gonna write a topic about this because it's gonna get big i feel.
Then I'll wait to respond to most of this here, other than to say that Delirious has been doing the opposite of that. If Bullet Club are going to get cheered (and, let's be honest the Bucks have a very babyface moveset) then just book them as babyfaces. There was absolutely no reason to turn them. It's the inverted Roman Reigns. If everyone is going to boo Roman no matter what he does then just let him be a heel and have the announcers talk about how much the crowd hates him instead of insisting on him being a babyface and having the announcers talk about how much everyone loves, while he's standing there in the ring being booed out of the building and having to dodge empty beer bottles being thrown at him. If Bullet Club are going to get cheered no matter what they do then just let them be babyfaces instead of having your announcers talk about how despicable they are and they stand for everything ROH is against while Bullet Club is in the ring doing terrible things to be people while the crowd cheers them on like they just saved Christmas and killed Hitler at the same time.

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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by cero2k » Jun 29th, '17, 10:36

Dave's

Ultimo Guerrero/El Terrible vs. Taven and Vinny 2
Frankie Kazarian vs. Hangman Page 3
Search and Destroy vs. The Rebellion 2.25
Jay Lethal vs. Silas Young 3.5
Dalton and the Boys vs. Bully and the Briscoes 3.25
KUSHIDA vs. Marty Scurll 4
Young Bucks vs. War Machine vs. Best Friends 4.5
Cody vs. Christopher Daniels 3.5
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 29th, '17, 11:28

cero2k wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 10:36
Dave's


Young Bucks vs. War Machine vs. Best Friends 4.5
Ah, yes. Because "whatever works at the time" lets Dave give all of the snowflakes he wants to his illegitimate children and Tomohiro Ishii, but if you show him ECW where the crowds are even hotter for, say, Sandman, this all of a sudden doesn't apply.
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by cero2k » Jun 29th, '17, 11:38

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 11:28
cero2k wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 10:36
Dave's


Young Bucks vs. War Machine vs. Best Friends 4.5
Ah, yes. Because "whatever works at the time" lets Dave give all of the snowflakes he wants to his illegitimate children and Tomohiro Ishii, but if you show him ECW where the crowds are even hotter for, say, Sandman, this all of a sudden doesn't apply.
illegitimate sons aside, I felt the match was a solid 8/10, none of my problems where with the match itself, but rather the announcing, booking, and the fans.
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 29th, '17, 12:06

cero2k wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 11:38
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 11:28
cero2k wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 10:36
Dave's


Young Bucks vs. War Machine vs. Best Friends 4.5
Ah, yes. Because "whatever works at the time" lets Dave give all of the snowflakes he wants to his illegitimate children and Tomohiro Ishii, but if you show him ECW where the crowds are even hotter for, say, Sandman, this all of a sudden doesn't apply.
illegitimate sons aside, I felt the match was a solid 8/10, none of my problems where with the match itself, but rather the announcing, booking, and the fans.
The booking was fine if you're going on the assumption that Chuck Taylor was only in for a short-time deal. It keeps War Machine alive as challengers (although I'll admit that I would have beaten them here because I have a feeling they're going to be a huge part of the IWGP Heavyweight Title seen for years to come so you're not going to be allowed to have Jr. Heavyweights beat them too often, then you can really build up Best Friends for a tag title shot, either in Vegas on the PPV or in the UK, and by that point you can make your decision if you want to keep Chuck around. This would also allow Roppongi Vice to feel more fresh when they come back, and maybe we could even get some Rocky Romero singles matches while this is happening (I'd love to see him against Lethal, KUSHIDA, and Scurll).
What were your problems with the crowd and the announcers?
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by cero2k » Jun 29th, '17, 12:37

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 12:06

The booking was fine if you're going on the assumption that Chuck Taylor was only in for a short-time deal. It keeps War Machine alive as challengers (although I'll admit that I would have beaten them here because I have a feeling they're going to be a huge part of the IWGP Heavyweight Title seen for years to come so you're not going to be allowed to have Jr. Heavyweights beat them too often, then you can really build up Best Friends for a tag title shot, either in Vegas on the PPV or in the UK, and by that point you can make your decision if you want to keep Chuck around. This would also allow Roppongi Vice to feel more fresh when they come back, and maybe we could even get some Rocky Romero singles matches while this is happening (I'd love to see him against Lethal, KUSHIDA, and Scurll).
What were your problems with the crowd and the announcers?
bookwise, i didn't like that Best Friends were added to the match last minute, nothing against the surprise, but rather the fact that you sell this 'epic' match up for PPV and then don't deliver that specific match.

Commentary and fans are more in the vein of your usual complain with ROH that if feels all fun and games, nothing feels epic in ROH, the fans constantly chanting 'superkick' was annoying, fuck Corino for starting this trend. Also, something i hated about commentary, which I see some other places too, was that Ian straight up tried to legitimize BF entering the match by quickly saying, 'i just got word from the office that this has been signed and blah blah", it's that type of announcing that pisses me off because it just sounds so fake, my argument before is that i'm ok with BF coming out and challenging the guys and entering the match, but the idea that backstage (not Silkin since he's right infront of me) someone wrote up a quick new contract and signed it, that's bs. ROH sometimes tries to legitimize things when you shouldn't and vice versa.
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 29th, '17, 13:06

cero2k wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 12:37
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 12:06

The booking was fine if you're going on the assumption that Chuck Taylor was only in for a short-time deal. It keeps War Machine alive as challengers (although I'll admit that I would have beaten them here because I have a feeling they're going to be a huge part of the IWGP Heavyweight Title seen for years to come so you're not going to be allowed to have Jr. Heavyweights beat them too often, then you can really build up Best Friends for a tag title shot, either in Vegas on the PPV or in the UK, and by that point you can make your decision if you want to keep Chuck around. This would also allow Roppongi Vice to feel more fresh when they come back, and maybe we could even get some Rocky Romero singles matches while this is happening (I'd love to see him against Lethal, KUSHIDA, and Scurll).
What were your problems with the crowd and the announcers?
bookwise, i didn't like that Best Friends were added to the match last minute, nothing against the surprise, but rather the fact that you sell this 'epic' match up for PPV and then don't deliver that specific match.
They didn't build this match up that way, though. War Machine beat the Bucks months ago at Honor Rising and it was just now months later announced that they're getting a title shot for this win, which had gone completely uncommented on until then. I definitely agree that you shouldn't be changing up the card on a PPV (especially when you do it all the time), but it's not like this was a match that had been built up well or anything.
cero2k wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 12:37
Commentary and fans are more in the vein of your usual complain with ROH that if feels all fun and games, nothing feels epic in ROH, the fans constantly chanting 'superkick' was annoying, fuck Corino for starting this trend.
You sound like me. Good to see that you're finally coming around, LOL.
cero2k wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 12:37
Also, something i hated about commentary, which I see some other places too, was that Ian straight up tried to legitimize BF entering the match by quickly saying, 'i just got word from the office that this has been signed and blah blah", it's that type of announcing that pisses me off because it just sounds so fake, my argument before is that i'm ok with BF coming out and challenging the guys and entering the match, but the idea that backstage (not Silkin since he's right infront of me) someone wrote up a quick new contract and signed it, that's bs. ROH sometimes tries to legitimize things when you shouldn't and vice versa.
I actually like this. The issue of "contracts" for matches in wrestling is definitely a complicated one, but the number of times we see an authority figure come out and, on the fly, book a match the heel doesn't want makes me think that things work like this:
The wrestlers sign blanket contracts with promotions that basically allows the promotion to book whatever matches they want (within legal reason), so no contract needs to be signed for each individual match. The times where we do see a "contract signing" segment are mostly for show. It is in kayfabe the same thing it is outside of kayfabe: the promotion is setting up a segment to hype up this big match (which is why the wrestlers are usually asked to cut promos during the signing). The times where this isn't the case are when you have certain managers who are portrayed as actually being a business manager to the wrestlers they sign (Larry Sweeney being the preeminent example, with Lana being a current counter-example), where it feels like they are the ones who control the wrestlers' contracts more than the promotion. Admittedly this works much better on a non-WWE level (because we know the wrestlers can actually work elsewhere, which makes it feel like the promotion doesn't have total control over them), or with someone like Brock who is portrayed as being a bit of an outsider (and the UFC fight helped that feeling even more) (Minoru Suzuki would be an example of someone who has this aura even though he works for NJPW basically full time). So, to me, the promotion can do whatever they want. They are the ones in control, and that means that they have to authorize all changes to the card, so I like when we get told that by an announcer that the powers that be have made a match official rather than saying nothing and giving us the implication that the wrestlers can just make whatever matches they way (because then why would security ever come out to break up a brawl?).
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by cero2k » Jun 29th, '17, 14:16

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 13:06

They didn't build this match up that way, though. War Machine beat the Bucks months ago at Honor Rising and it was just now months later announced that they're getting a title shot for this win, which had gone completely uncommented on until then. I definitely agree that you shouldn't be changing up the card on a PPV (especially when you do it all the time), but it's not like this was a match that had been built up well or anything.


You sound like me. Good to see that you're finally coming around, LOL.


I actually like this. The issue of "contracts" for matches in wrestling is definitely a complicated one, but the number of times we see an authority figure come out and, on the fly, book a match the heel doesn't want makes me think that things work like this:
The wrestlers sign blanket contracts with promotions that basically allows the promotion to book whatever matches they want (within legal reason), so no contract needs to be signed for each individual match. The times where we do see a "contract signing" segment are mostly for show. It is in kayfabe the same thing it is outside of kayfabe: the promotion is setting up a segment to hype up this big match (which is why the wrestlers are usually asked to cut promos during the signing). The times where this isn't the case are when you have certain managers who are portrayed as actually being a business manager to the wrestlers they sign (Larry Sweeney being the preeminent example, with Lana being a current counter-example), where it feels like they are the ones who control the wrestlers' contracts more than the promotion. Admittedly this works much better on a non-WWE level (because we know the wrestlers can actually work elsewhere, which makes it feel like the promotion doesn't have total control over them), or with someone like Brock who is portrayed as being a bit of an outsider (and the UFC fight helped that feeling even more) (Minoru Suzuki would be an example of someone who has this aura even though he works for NJPW basically full time). So, to me, the promotion can do whatever they want. They are the ones in control, and that means that they have to authorize all changes to the card, so I like when we get told that by an announcer that the powers that be have made a match official rather than saying nothing and giving us the implication that the wrestlers can just make whatever matches they way (because then why would security ever come out to break up a brawl?).
(1) Even worse if you're a close follower of ROH, may not be epic, but it's ROH finally addressing this clear shot that War Machine deserved and then no, out of nowhere 'card subject to change'

(2) haha i've never fully disagree with you there. In ROH there are many shows that i'm ok with the shitty stuff because i don't consider them big shows or big matches, but on a PPV it IS more annoying

(3) It may have been the way they said it and it may bother me more with ROH because Silkin is usually out there at ring side, maybe just a quick shot of Silkin giving them the thumbs up or something
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 29th, '17, 14:29

cero2k wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 14:16
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 13:06

They didn't build this match up that way, though. War Machine beat the Bucks months ago at Honor Rising and it was just now months later announced that they're getting a title shot for this win, which had gone completely uncommented on until then. I definitely agree that you shouldn't be changing up the card on a PPV (especially when you do it all the time), but it's not like this was a match that had been built up well or anything.


You sound like me. Good to see that you're finally coming around, LOL.


I actually like this. The issue of "contracts" for matches in wrestling is definitely a complicated one, but the number of times we see an authority figure come out and, on the fly, book a match the heel doesn't want makes me think that things work like this:
The wrestlers sign blanket contracts with promotions that basically allows the promotion to book whatever matches they want (within legal reason), so no contract needs to be signed for each individual match. The times where we do see a "contract signing" segment are mostly for show. It is in kayfabe the same thing it is outside of kayfabe: the promotion is setting up a segment to hype up this big match (which is why the wrestlers are usually asked to cut promos during the signing). The times where this isn't the case are when you have certain managers who are portrayed as actually being a business manager to the wrestlers they sign (Larry Sweeney being the preeminent example, with Lana being a current counter-example), where it feels like they are the ones who control the wrestlers' contracts more than the promotion. Admittedly this works much better on a non-WWE level (because we know the wrestlers can actually work elsewhere, which makes it feel like the promotion doesn't have total control over them), or with someone like Brock who is portrayed as being a bit of an outsider (and the UFC fight helped that feeling even more) (Minoru Suzuki would be an example of someone who has this aura even though he works for NJPW basically full time). So, to me, the promotion can do whatever they want. They are the ones in control, and that means that they have to authorize all changes to the card, so I like when we get told that by an announcer that the powers that be have made a match official rather than saying nothing and giving us the implication that the wrestlers can just make whatever matches they way (because then why would security ever come out to break up a brawl?).
(1) Even worse if you're a close follower of ROH, may not be epic, but it's ROH finally addressing this clear shot that War Machine deserved and then no, out of nowhere 'card subject to change'

(2) haha i've never fully disagree with you there. In ROH there are many shows that i'm ok with the shitty stuff because i don't consider them big shows or big matches, but on a PPV it IS more annoying

(3) It may have been the way they said it and it may bother me more with ROH because Silkin is usually out there at ring side, maybe just a quick shot of Silkin giving them the thumbs up or something
I don't know that Cary even has power anymore. His role as "ambassador" has never come close to being defined. I think the only time he has been shown to make an on-screen decision was Final Battle 2008 when Albright appealed to him to authorize a Steel Cage Warfare match against SnS. I think the only reason they even had him at ringside here was so Cody could grab him in his attempt to get cheap heat.
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by cero2k » Jun 29th, '17, 15:11

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 14:29

I don't know that Cary even has power anymore. His role as "ambassador" has never come close to being defined. I think the only time he has been shown to make an on-screen decision was Final Battle 2008 when Albright appealed to him to authorize a Steel Cage Warfare match against SnS. I think the only reason they even had him at ringside here was so Cody could grab him in his attempt to get cheap heat.
i don't think he has either, but at least in a kayfabe or TV way, he's still the face of the ROH office
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Re: BRM Reviews ROH Best in the World 2017 (I think I'm tapping out)

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 29th, '17, 16:07

cero2k wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 15:11
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 29th, '17, 14:29

I don't know that Cary even has power anymore. His role as "ambassador" has never come close to being defined. I think the only time he has been shown to make an on-screen decision was Final Battle 2008 when Albright appealed to him to authorize a Steel Cage Warfare match against SnS. I think the only reason they even had him at ringside here was so Cody could grab him in his attempt to get cheap heat.
i don't think he has either, but at least in a kayfabe or TV way, he's still the face of the ROH office
Except he's not, though. He's not at most of the shows- or even most of the TVs- and they always talk about ROH Management" or the "Board of Directors" did X, rather than saying that Cary did it.
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